Customizable pronouns

I mean i want to understand you but when you say something in a game its a real treat for you i just cant.

Im sorry.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

I need a citation for them programming in gender as a binary flag in this game because honestly, that's a ridiculous and resource-intensive way to go about it vs just defining a variable and calling that.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Obviously at this point it being an integer could help with the request (gender = 5) [...]

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Gender is a binary flag because "binary" is how a computer thinks. It's the simplest piece of data they can store. One or zero; on or off. There's no "halfway".

there's also no "need" for it in the programming. It needs to know whether to display a male or female character model, and whether to apply "he" or "she" in the text. There aren't any other options programmed into the game that they need to reflect.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

Ah, French localization. They gender everything. Indeed, it would be a localization challenge and for that, they could keep the same overly complicated gender deal going. Given that it's in French, I'm not going to take that as definitive evidence they program it this way globally. If they do, lol.

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I assume the French programming needs to consult both the gender and race of the character to select the correct text string. It's not "an extra complicated pronoun tag". It's a line of script applied in that instant, not something that needs to be stored for the character.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

. Serious question. How many people in this thread, not virtue signaling, would actually mess around with the pronoun thing longer than they did picking their "birthday" in this game? And not cause it'd be funny have everyone call you "zer". Seriously it would make this game better for you, that kind of "use".

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That's not a great analogy. If it was an option it would be a lot more visible than the character's birthday - you set it at the beginning and probably don't adjust it later, yes, but it would affect every single time your character is addressed by gender.

It's on par with selecting your character's race and gender, and other highly visible options that you can't change (Fantasia aside) once you've set them.

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

Thank you my potatoe shaped friend lol. I have aultism myself and I myself deal with the issue's. I'm not normal, I have a illness. I just don't care! If people accept me fine, if not idc. I'm not gonna demand SE let me make my wol autistic as a result. Be happy with who you are, but don't expect the entire world to conform to your needs I say.

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An autistic WoL wouldn't work anyway - they need the natural social skills that we struggle with.

I remain convinced we have a probable representative in the main Scions though... and no I'm not calling him mentally ill.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Gender is a binary flag because "binary" is how a computer thinks. It's the simplest piece of data they can store. One or zero; on or off. There's no "halfway".

there's also no "need" for it in the programming. It needs to know whether to display a male or female character model, and whether to apply "he" or "she" in the text. There aren't any other options programmed into the game that they need to reflect.

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Not sure why I was included in it since we're basically agreeing (if you include my other posts) :D. I was saying it would be more convenient for OP if the tracking of gender was set up to track multiple cases already, but that it's probably not. Which is why I was asking them why they think a boolean (a true/false/1/0) would be inefficient.

Did I miss something? I feel tagged but I don't know how to tag back . . .

Uhm..

Boop! lol

Haha what? Not necessary.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

Just nitpicking here but, Feo Ul did refer to herself as a she in the English version, so some pixies might use gendered pronouns

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I thought the premise behind this thread was a bit odd because I thought I remembered Feo Ul being female in the questline. Thanks for confirming that. Looks like the only 'nonbinary' pronoun used then was the fact she was referred to as King of the Pixies. Where King is a title earned, not born into in this case.

So if culture comes before emotional feelings. I'm good with that.

https://derpicdn.net/img/view/2015/5...ality+bait.jpg

How many pages till this gets nuked?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That's not a great analogy. If it was an option it would be a lot more visible than the character's birthday - you set it at the beginning and probably don't adjust it later, yes, but it would affect every single time your character is addressed by gender.

It's on par with selecting your character's race and gender, and other highly visible options that you can't change (Fantasia aside) once you've set them.

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Not what I asked, not the point. It's not an analogy, it's a comparison on how much time people actually spent on that part of character creation. The point of that sentence is to imply that most people won't spend more than a few seconds on that choice.

I now have an image of a WoL going full on rage mode with the "Did you just assume my gender?!" thing when NPCs incorrectly refer to them as he/she.

I think it's something they can keep in mind for any future MMOs, but I don't know that it would be feasible here. The game currently has triggers for male/female in the code and there are dialogue differences based on that. Even if you could manage to implement logic that used a third or even fourth trigger, you have translations to consider that would also have to be modified to use the same triggers. And considering how certain words or phrases in one language may be different or non-existent in others, that may not be the easiest thing to correlate. I work as a software engineer and we have a customer-facing product in multiple languages and translations can be the bane of our lives sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Gender is a binary flag because "binary" is how a computer thinks. It's the simplest piece of data they can store. One or zero; on or off. There's no "halfway".

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First of all: it would be called a "boolean" variable, not a binary one. Boolean differentiates between two states: true and false.

Second: I doubt that they use boolean for gender as that would make for pretty awkward coding. I'm sure it is a completely normal variable that points to a value in your character data and that information is then used to pick the right dialogue via if/else.

Adding in more states than two would not only require the rewrite of the character data, because right now with only 2 sexes 1 bit is enough to store the information, if you want a 3rd option you't have to beef it up to 2 bits. Also it would require another loop in the if/else decision making code.

It is pretty trivial to implement once you have the template because you can use (or point to) the same tiny code segment every time.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Not what I asked, not the point. It's not an analogy, it's a comparison on how much time people actually spent on that part of character creation. The point of that sentence is to imply that most people won't spend more than a few seconds on that choice.

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I'm not sure how the time spent choosing it is relevant though?

If someone asks "how would you like me to refer to you: 'he', 'she' or 'they'?".... how long would it take you to decide the answer?

If the option was there (as it may well be in future games where you create your own character), it's not something you could judge the usefulness of by how often you consider or adjust it. It's something you set at the beginning, and the effect of it carries long afterwards.

How often do you adjust the UI once it's set up and working for you? How often do you adjust the language settings? These things are highly visible and affect your experience, but they're not things you engage with for the sake of it.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Not sure why I was included in it since we're basically agreeing (if you include my other posts) :D

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Oops, sorry! Was going to make a side point about how 5 is a three-digit binary number, abandoned it, and forgot to delete the quote.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'm not sure how the time spent choosing it is relevant though?

If someone asks "how would you like me to refer to you: 'he', 'she' or 'they'?".... how long would it take you to decide the answer?

If the option was there (as it may well be in future games where you create your own character), it's not something you could judge the usefulness of by how often you consider or adjust it. It's something you set at the beginning, and the effect of it carries long afterwards.

How often do you adjust the UI once it's set up and working for you? How often do you adjust the language settings? These things are highly visible and affect your experience, but they're not things you engage with for the sake of it.

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You have missed the entire point of my post. Will you, personally, without using your answer as a virtue signaling position (like you kinda are), use that feature seriously?
It's a large development investment, and from my experience with actual representation numbers of people who truly want/need tertiary or further pronouns , a TINY return on that investment.

Would it be nice? SURE. COOL. More people enjoying a game how they would like.

Is it worth it? I postulate it is not.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

You have missed the entire point of my post. Will you, personally, without using your answer as a virtue signaling position (like you kinda are), use that feature seriously?

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I'm not saying it should be added to FFXIV. I thought the rest of what I posted in this discussion made that stance clear - it is not logistically possible to add it into this game.

You seemed to be speaking hypothetically - if it were in the game, would you even spend much time using it? - when it's not something intended to have time spent on it, but to have an effect on the entire time you're in the game.

In the hypothetical situation that it was a feature in a game to choose the pronoun your character is addressed by, everyone would be asked the question during character creation, and nobody would spend much time answering it.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'm not saying it should be added to FFXIV. I thought the rest of what I posted in this discussion made that stance clear - it is not logistically possible to add it into this game.

You seemed to be speaking hypothetically - if it were in the game, would you even spend much time using it? - when it's not something intended to have time spent on it, but to have an effect on the entire time you're in the game.

In the hypothetical situation that it was a feature in a game to choose the pronoun your character is addressed by, everyone would be asked the question during character creation, and nobody would spend much time answering it.

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And I'm not saying that you're saying it should, my post is asking a question: How many people will use a feature like this?

My original post, which you took one line from and expanded, was asking about how many people would actually use 3+ options for pronouns beyond using it " for hahas". The line you quoted was comparing the length of decision making to something that the majority of the playerbase takes little to no notice of because it doesn't matter to them to make a point about how few of us would even bother. The majority of us pick female/male and just expect those pronouns. it's a non-decision for many people.

Regardless though, we are arguing over my post and your replies for reasons mostly unrelated to the OP. If you don't want to answer my original question then don't. I really don't wish to argue over misunderstandings.

It's no secret that I'm Trans and my best friend is nonbinary. This isn't about you, this is about the Warrior of Light: And maybe, the Warrior of Light is not non-binary.

That would be an insane amount of work for a very small percentage of people. At the end of the day, you are a minority. A minority who did get a shoutout in Il Mheg. Be happy that you received inclusivity at all rather than demanding more.

No. Just no.

I can see how there could be some difficulty introducing a third gender option if gender is decided through a Boolean. Although in some systems null is a valid value of Boolean as well as true and false. Idk what language they use or what objects, types, etc within that language they use. And that’s kind of the point. We can’t know what SE can and can’t do, and how much effort it will take. Only SE can. We can indicate a preference for something or not and SE can decide whether they can implement it/whether they have time to implement it. I, for one, would be in favour. However, I wouldn’t want these changes to take priority over fixes to jobs (MNK, DRK, BRD, SMN, AST, and SCH all seem to have a fair number of unhappy players) or other things more central to the game’s mechanical operation.

basically


no

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

Hi there!

So I'm nonbinary and it's been a real treat seeing gender neutral pronouns being used for the pixies in Il Mheg and for our adorable branch. For the WoL, though, there's always only he/him or she/her. I was wondering if it might be possible to set different pronouns for written dialogue and system messages, either through the character creation process or something in the options menu? It would be a nice little bit of inclusion to have in the game.

Obviously, voiced lines that use pronouns don't necessarily need to change in the process.

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Short answer: No.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

Hi there!

So I'm nonbinary and it's been a real treat seeing gender neutral pronouns being used for the pixies in Il Mheg and for our adorable branch. For the WoL, though, there's always only he/him or she/her. I was wondering if it might be possible to set different pronouns for written dialogue and system messages, either through the character creation process or something in the options menu? It would be a nice little bit of inclusion to have in the game.

Obviously, voiced lines that use pronouns don't necessarily need to change in the process.

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Long answer: Still no.

This is a game with established rules. Leave your beliefs outside of it.

Oh my god... No.

Threads like this are a perfect example of why people are so annoyed with the alphabet community.
Reality doesn't care what your head canon is for your character or for yourself.

I heard Obama was making a MMO this should make you excited OP.

Leave politics and gender theory at the door.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

Hi there!

So I'm nonbinary and it's been a real treat seeing gender neutral pronouns being used for the pixies in Il Mheg and for our adorable branch. For the WoL, though, there's always only he/him or she/her. I was wondering if it might be possible to set different pronouns for written dialogue and system messages, either through the character creation process or something in the options menu? It would be a nice little bit of inclusion to have in the game.

Obviously, voiced lines that use pronouns don't necessarily need to change in the process.

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No .

Honestly I rarely see any characters refer to WOL as he/him or she/her, they usually refer to the WOL by their name.

I wouldn’t be against it, but there are the issues of dialogue programming and localizations of the gendered romantic languages. It might take up more time/resources, etc, but I don’t know much about programming. Maybe in another/future MMO?

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Originally Posted by LatinaBunny2

I wouldn’t be against it, but there are the issues of dialogue programming and localizations of the gendered romantic languages. It might take up more time/resources, etc, but I don’t know much about programming. Maybe in another/future MMO?

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I somehow don't expect romantic language users to even care much for this in the first place since their relationship to pronouns are way different to english. Gendered pronouns are everywhere for everything with no apparent sense to it. It also isn't uncommon to be referred to in another gender depending on your profession. So the idea of caring about what pronoun is used for addressing you is just less important in general.

Woah this troll thread really got people going. Ya'll need to learn to spot trolls.

This is not the real world. Leave all that stuff (religions, gender and sexual preferences, politics in general, etc.) out of here, please. No one cares about what you do or what you like IRL, as it should. So do whatever you want to do with your life, and let the devs create the fantasy world that they want to.

In other words, your character is not you. You don't even own it, either. So, in the end, you can only choose what the devs allow you to choose considering how they envision their world. Same reason as of why they don't let us choose if we want to be a pure breed garlean, or an ascian, or play an evil character. Many players would love those, but the devs decided that they are not an option for PCs.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

This is not the real world. Leave all that stuff (religions, gender and sexual preferences, politics in general, etc.) out of here, please. No one cares about what you do or what you like IRL, as it should. So do whatever you want to do with your life, and let the devs create the fantasy world that they want to.

In other words, your character is not you. You don't even own it, either. So, in the end, you can only choose what the devs allow you to choose considering how they envision their world. Same reason as of why they don't let us choose if we want to be a pure breed garlean, or an ascian, or play an evil character. Many players would love those, but the devs decided that they are not an option for PCs.

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People RP as all of those.

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

People RP as all of those.

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They also roleplay as a tablecloth and as a doorstop, but that doesn't mean the developers have overhauled mechanics or systems for those uncommon cases to facilitate their roleplay. They do fine with the tools they already have.

Those uncommon cases require (SpongeBob) imaaaagination to pull off ingame, and that's OK. That's what rp is about, after all. All interface information is by definition out of character, so it frankly doesn't matter whether square lets someone make their pronoun whomstd've. It's up to your character to use it in character for it to exist in character, which is something square can't help you with.

Oh, and before you try to tell me cutscenes are in character -- no. That's someone else's story. If you're keen on roleplaying, tell your own story rather than try to convince me the exarch picked you specifically when he did the exact thing to me. And the other guy. And her over there, too.

To be honest all the checks are all ready in the game for when they call you by one of the sex. The voices cutscenes are already done for both HE and SHE variations. Switching between He or She should be an easy toggle. IT is already More or less (if X character = Male Then Text displayed = Y) and so on. So change the check to a setting the player can choose. In options => Default (Your characters actual Gender in game), Male, Female. Any options else besides that would take alot of rewritting and voice acting... so 100% would NOT be worth it at all.



But the whole bringing real life stuff into the game is sorta meh in my eyes. This is a fantasy game and a fantasy world. We are not in the real world. I would be alittle iffy about adding too much stuff like this cause it opens a can of worms.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

This is not the real world. Leave all that stuff (religions, gender and sexual preferences, politics in general, etc.) out of here, please. No one cares about what you do or what you like IRL, as it should. So do whatever you want to do with your life, and let the devs create the fantasy world that they want to.

In other words, your character is not you. You don't even own it, either. So, in the end, you can only choose what the devs allow you to choose considering how they envision their world. Same reason as of why they don't let us choose if we want to be a pure breed garlean, or an ascian, or play an evil character. Many players would love those, but the devs decided that they are not an option for PCs.

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Are we playing the same game? Did you really just skip over every political moment in this game that is a parallel to the real world.

Heck they even have a small story element with the NPC "Koko" in the Azim Steppe regarding something very similar to what the OP is asking for.

Honestly, the things I'd love to say to people like you and the many others in this thread that spew hate but I'd fetch a ban for that right quick.

What I will say is you aren't clever, your intent is very clear. Hatred, hatred, hatred.

Spin it however way you like but if this is the conclusion you come to, and I've seen your kind many times before, it's all from hatred.

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Originally Posted by LatinaBunny2

I wouldn’t be against it, but there are the issues of dialogue programming and localizations of the gendered romantic languages. It might take up more time/resources, etc, but I don’t know much about programming. Maybe in another/future MMO?

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Alot of time and resources actually. Take all the text in the game that has a reference to the PC that goes by either he or she, then imagine having a variable table assigned to reallocate the pronoun to something else, and having a variable toggle somewhere. Then go back and look at all the text that would have to be gone through in order to do that. Its bloat and nothing more than a waste of time and resources. And thats a simple example if the program using it was simple, FFXIV and most games aren't that simple.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Honestly, the things I'd love to say to people like you and the many others in this thread that spew hate but I'd fetch a ban for that right quick.
What I will say is you aren't clever, your intent is very clear. Hatred, hatred, hatred.
Spin it however way you like but if this is the conclusion you come to, and I've seen your kind many times before, it's all from hatred.

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I don't hate gender confused people (by that I mean people that find it hip but don't have any real condition and just jump on the bandwagon) or people that suffer from real DSD.
They have issues that should be treated. I respect them the same as I do all other humans but I'm not going to make exceptions for them or treat them with kid gloves because they demand it.

DSDs account for less than 1% of the population, according to an article one of them linked here. We cannot adjust our language use for every supertiny minority. It would end up in total chaos.

BTW: the only one that "spews hate" is actually you.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

But the whole bringing real life stuff into the game is sorta meh in my eyes. This is a fantasy game and a fantasy world. We are not in the real world. I would be alittle iffy about adding too much stuff like this cause it opens a can of worms.

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Not just that, it also breaks immersion.
Eorzea is a medieval culture, they have for more worries than some gender confusion our western society makes up because we apparently don't have any real problems to think about anymore. It just wouldn't fit because the society wasn't originally designed with this kind of behavior in mind.

To force it in just to please a small part of a 1% minority is absurd.

Haha, good one. :D

*grabs Lalafell and begins to clean the rather messy table*

The number of people who disagree with this topic concerns me
Well first of all, gender (and sexuality) shouldn't be a political debate since they just... exist... and making their identity as debate topic is rude
Second, cisgender shouldn't assume their opinions worth than actual non-binaries. We know what's the best for ourselves

Ignoring the people slinging vitriol here for a moment, I'd be quite on board with this idea. Representation is good.