I've kicked players for wearing the wrong gear!

I've never been in a position where I personally myself have had to kick someone but IMO unless their outright doing a terrible job or their just taking way to many times trying to grasp a concept in the gameplay department then I personally would not kick them for lacking proper gear.

Though really thanks to the glamor system most people I've met usually have their correct armor and accessories.

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Originally Posted by RyuuSkyez

remind me to never play with this guy ^ XD I might just wear no accessories to troll him lol

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Then he'd kick you for being a troll, not because you're not wearing accessories.

Seems like a lot of people in the thread just stopped dead at the thread title only but refused to read on further.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Then he'd kick you for being a troll, not because you're not wearing accessories.

Seems like a lot of people in the thread just stopped dead at the thread title only but refused to read on further.

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As people tend to do on most threads loo fortunately we have the select few who actually do engage in good conversation so we can always rely on them.

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Originally Posted by JackHatchet

I'm talking like at 70 most of the time. I see it the most in the lvl 70 24 man content.

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Um. If its 61+ content then they cannot wear accessories/gear that are not prudent to their class. That stopped in HW. If they are wearing HW gear in SB content then yeah you're well within your rights but how is it you're making that judgement in lvl 70 duties? As someone already mentioned, if its ARR then kicking over gear is pretty unnecessary. I can maybe see it in higher-end HW duties but even so... I'm not sure I see the logic of this argument unless you're talking about poorly geared players in lower end content who have classes leveled to 70--those people more than likely know better. If you're talking about lvl 70 duties... They can't accessory swap there. So... What is this really?

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Originally Posted by Eriane_Elis

You do realize that a vast majority of people have duty queue anxiety and that they simply don't want to talk to you and just want you to shut up right? As long as they don't die, what does it matter? Just run the instance and if they keep dying, then either boot them or complete it without reviving them. You think you're taking the high road of saying "it's democratic" but really, are you going in alone or with 2 other people you know? Do people know what they are clicking? Often times people will do a ready check and I can imagine that a vote kick confirmation to be confused with a ready check. I presume you queue for roulettes which is almost always going to have newbies because that's what it's for. Assuming I pass the ilvl check, I could throw away all my accessories and still do perfectly fine in any dungeon or raid because ACC don't matter all that much pre-5.0. Post 5.0 will be a different matter entirely but even then, as long as you don't die from a stack mechanic you are golden in my book.

Just let them play however they want to play. You wouldn't be the first person to carry someone through a dungeon and certainly won't be the last.

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To be honest i have far more problems with people who are not playing a correct way than what they wear on their character.
No amount of gear will make my run easier if dps refuse to AOE or dodging red and keep dying or healer to heal, or redmage forgeting he has a revive button.

I didn't read through this entire thing, but am I getting the gyst that people are ok playing with those that don't have the wherewithal to learn the games basic functions? Or who are too lazy to gear above sub par? You do realize it's not wrong to expect better of others right? Someone actually said as long as you don't die, you are golden.... GOLDEN? Not mildly inconvenient. Not tolerable. Golden.

The entire game revolves around growing in skill and ability, conquering a ladder of content as high as you possibly can, enjoying yourself along the way, wrapped in a stylish visually pleasing wrapper and topped with a bow of the finest story across all mmos currently. And just because early and entry endgame content can be played with your feet and no forethought means it's acceptable? Care bears gonna Care bear, but boy oh boy this mentality borders on extremism.

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Originally Posted by Kaizencorr

I didn't read through this entire thing, but am I getting the gyst that people are ok playing with those that don't have the wherewithal to learn the games basic functions? Or who are too lazy to gear above sub par? You do realize it's not wrong to expect better of others right? Someone actually said as long as you don't die, you are golden.... GOLDEN? Not mildly inconvenient. Not tolerable. Golden.

The entire game revolves around growing in skill and ability, conquering a ladder of content as high as you possibly can, enjoying yourself along the way, wrapped in a stylish visually pleasing wrapper and topped with a bow of the finest story across all mmos currently. And just because early and entry endgame content can be played with your feet and no forethought means it's acceptable? Care bears gonna Care bear, but boy oh boy this mentality borders on extremism.

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borders on extemism?
You mean how a certain group of people expects Ultimate Bahamut proficiency in a random duty finder group?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JackHatchet

Yeah yeah, I know that's a loaded header, but hear me out!

I wish Square-Enix would put class restrictions on accessories like they do with the rest of the gear.

I can't tell you guys how many times I'll get into a group with a caster wearing a mix-match of DEX/STR rings and other accessories that don't offer them any use to their class. And to top it all off, literally every-time I've ever mentioned this to someone--the response is always extreme hostility or extreme arrogance.

I'm totally cool with new players who don't know better making mistakes and then willing to learn and improve. That's great, they get a pass, because they're trying! I'd never kick someone for trying.

But man, I ask some folks why they're using a strength ring on their blackmage, and they say it increases their hit chance. I tell them that's not right. And they blow up on me. Those are the people I kick. And I do it way too often for it to just be a fluke. Like once a week often.

Is there a way we can fix this?

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So when you load up in DF you examine your group mates' gear to see if you want to keep them? And then someone is wrong on the internet so better remove them?

Dude.

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Originally Posted by JBee

So when you load up in DF you examine your group mates' gear to see if you want to keep them? And then someone is wrong on the internet so better remove them?

Dude.

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Yes, if, for example, I go into the duty finder & into a level 60 dungeon with someone who wears level 50 gear, they will be removed from the dungeon.

If you can't grasp the basics of the game, you shouldn't be expected to be carried. More so over when the person wearing the wrong gear is corrected, and they try to act like they are right. The "you don't pay my sub" attitude needs to die off.

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Originally Posted by Eriane_Elis

Just let them play however they want to play.

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What I don't get is why someone intentionally wants to play badly?

You could understand being inexperienced, slipping up, missing a dex accessory and filling it with a vit one, being new and not realizing your gear was wrong. I'd never kick someone for that. But to actually choose to wear terrible equipment and aggressively defend that choice as a playstyle preference is baffling. How is simply not being bothered to put in effort and expecting a carry a valid "playstyle"?

This has always been one of the things that irks me in easy content in any mmo. The attitude of "it's easy so who cares", then knowingly playing so badly that what should be smooth content becomes a mess. It's nonsense saying it makes zero difference when wipes have happened in almost every instance in the game. This is why we need ilv requirements on dungeons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaizencorr

I didn't read through this entire thing, but am I getting the gyst that people are ok playing with those that don't have the wherewithal to learn the games basic functions? Or who are too lazy to gear above sub par? You do realize it's not wrong to expect better of others right? Someone actually said as long as you don't die, you are golden.... GOLDEN? Not mildly inconvenient. Not tolerable. Golden.

The entire game revolves around growing in skill and ability, conquering a ladder of content as high as you possibly can, enjoying yourself along the way, wrapped in a stylish visually pleasing wrapper and topped with a bow of the finest story across all mmos currently. And just because early and entry endgame content can be played with your feet and no forethought means it's acceptable? Care bears gonna Care bear, but boy oh boy this mentality borders on extremism.

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Its just a lvling dungeons so chill. xD
Lvling in this game is faster than you are able to give your job a proper gear, and because of it, people run lvling dungeons with anything they have.
Its not the sign of commitment or lack of it, but a weirdly balanced game on those low lvls.
You cant make gils on low lvls, its almost impossible since bots ruined this game economy and even buying a NPC gear that could cost seveal tens of thousands gill for a set could put a good strain on your small budget. Maybe you are sitting at teens of millions of gil, because it was easier to obtain it like 1 year ago, but now tell someone who have just started to play two months ago who is starting new job because he didnt like the one he played for so long and that he has to spend 70k on the accessories at lvl 50 so he could make dungeon 1-2 minutes "faster" lol.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

What I don't get is why someone intentionally wants to play badly?

You could understand being inexperienced, slipping up, missing a dex accessory and filling it with a vit one, being new and not realizing your gear was wrong. I'd never kick someone for that. But to actually choose to wear terrible equipment and aggressively defend that choice as a playstyle preference is baffling. How is simply not being bothered to put in effort and expecting a carry a valid "playstyle"?

This has always been one of the things that irks me in easy content in any mmo. The attitude of "it's easy so who cares", then knowingly playing so badly that what should be smooth content becomes a mess. It's nonsense saying it makes zero difference when wipes have happened in almost every instance in the game. This is why we need ilv requirements on dungeons.

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Who lied to you that lvling dungeons should be a "easy and smooth" content?
You literally are being queued up with newbies and lvlers who are lacking in a lot of things, expecting anything from it is petty. You have lvl 70 content to play if you want smooth experience, why do you bother to play low lvls? lol

I check players gear, because I want to know what cool glamours they're wearing. I don't inspect everyone.

But I didn't think it was relevant as to why i inspected people. But people seem to get offended that I do for some reason. I don't understand. People can inspect my characters all they want. I didn't play an MMO to be a shut-in.

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You do realize that a vast majority of people have duty queue anxiety and that they simply don't want to talk to you and just want you to shut up right?

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Those people shouldn't be playing an MMO if they're going to be anti-social and want to impose their anti-social behaviors on others by wanting them to shut-up. Get out of here with that non-sense. This is an MMO--not a library.

I kick players every couple of days for this.

Level 65 dungeon and someone has lvl 60 gear or under? Out.
Level 70 dungeon and you're not in full 70 gear, even if it's just the class stuff? Out.
Level 60 dungeon and you're using full level 50 gear? Out.

I'm sorry but personally, I am not here to carry anyone. Besides, 9/10 times when you question these type of people why they are doing that, you will be insulted, overall met with hostility, or the famous "you don't pay my sub."

They're right, I don't pay their sub, what they don't seem to understand is that they don't pay mine either. No one is under any obligation to play with these kinds of people and carry them.

Why do some people defend this behaviour?

I'm sorry but how is wearing terribly under leveled gear or plain and simply the wrong gear acceptable? Why is wasting the time of everyone else in the party acceptable? 1 person isn't more important than the group, it's the other way around.

Wearing the wrong gear is not considered playing your own way.
Wearing level 50 gear in a level 60 dungeon is not considered playing your own way.
No one is asking anyone to be the top players.
No one is asking anyone to minmax and output the highest level of damage possible.
No one is asking for anything out of this world.
We are asking for BASIC COMPETENCE.

What do you mean when you say you are 'carrying" someone? Honest question here.

Do you mean the person isn't doing anything? Or that you feel you are doing more of the work damage wise?

What if a person has gear 5 levels below the dungeon level, but is working hard to heal or DPS? Is that still them being "carried"?

Or do you just not care and kick, not wanting to even see?

I leave or kick if i see 10k less live or way less mana on someone AND the run is unbearable...


Just a few days ago i ran into a healing girl on shiva using no head gear and rather low lv 50 stuff on amdapor... was fun... on another trial i had an heal using lv 50 stuff in a lv 60 trial... and i had lots of ppl doing anima/relic and forgetting to switch...


@ above idm 5, 10,15 or smt, or a bit lower weapon but like i had many times now a 320 wep at the burn is just lazy >_>

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Level 65 dungeon and someone has lvl 60 gear or under? Out.

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Shisui gear is identical to augmented Shire gear. The NQ level 64 tank pieces sold by vendors have 2% more defence and 8% less STR and VIT, which is not a good trade. The loss in main stat is similar for dps. Are you expecting players to have crafted HQ level 64 gear? The main scenario doesn't provide enough pieces for all jobs.

I would define a carry if the offending person wasn't good enough to clear the content.

So for example a player that just can't hold their own. A good example is a DPS check like Ifrit Normal's nail. So take someone who's bad, and then try to play it out in your head as both DPS were as equal to the lesser one. If both DPS can pass a check based on the lesser DPS's quality--then no carrying is happening. But if both DPS were bad and they couldn't pass a check--then that person simply shouldn't be there.

A carry is usually implied when another person compensates for a bad person. So using the above example, if you have one really bad DPS on Ifrit's nail, but were compensated by a really good player's DPS--and still got the clear.

While it's very possible for other players to compensate for bad players. The problem is allowing this behavior to become mainstream to the point where 'everyone' is bad, and therefore no one can clear content. You wouldn't want to be the healer or tank in a group with two bad DPS, and wiping on the nail just because they're used to always being carried by someone else. People need to hold their own weight.

And again, as long as both people at their worst can still clear the content--I have no issue. It's just when people are so bad, that they NEED compensation. They're their toxic to their group. Because no one can (nor should they) expect to have a really skilled/geared player in a group just to carry the bad ones.

Another common carry dynamic is the healer/tank combo.

If a tank is really bad--a really good healer can compensate. And vice versa with a bad healer--a good tank can compensate.

The problem again is with cultivating an expectation that people can willingly be bad, because they've become reliant on good players to always compensate for them. People need to be aware that there are repercussions for their laziness.

----------

And again, to stress it out for the 3rd time. If all players are bad AND THE CONTENT CAN STILL BE CLEARED--then no carrying is happen. So new players shouldn't feel like they need to be masters at the game. Just good enough that they actually justify their spot. And unfortunately, some people aren't justified to be in any duty. They're just toxic performance wise and socially.

And that's why kicks are important.

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Originally Posted by JackHatchet

Yeah yeah, I know that's a loaded header, but hear me out!

I wish Square-Enix would put class restrictions on accessories like they do with the rest of the gear.

I can't tell you guys how many times I'll get into a group with a caster wearing a mix-match of DEX/STR rings and other accessories that don't offer them any use to their class. And to top it all off, literally every-time I've ever mentioned this to someone--the response is always extreme hostility or extreme arrogance.

I'm totally cool with new players who don't know better making mistakes and then willing to learn and improve. That's great, they get a pass, because they're trying! I'd never kick someone for trying.

But man, I ask some folks why they're using a strength ring on their blackmage, and they say it increases their hit chance. I tell them that's not right. And they blow up on me. Those are the people I kick. And I do it way too often for it to just be a fluke. Like once a week often.

Is there a way we can fix this?

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this is just sad....like its not even that serious. i hope players kick you for being rude

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

I kick players every couple of days for this.

Level 65 dungeon and someone has lvl 60 gear or under? Out.
Level 70 dungeon and you're not in full 70 gear, even if it's just the class stuff? Out.
Level 60 dungeon and you're using full level 50 gear? Out.

I'm sorry but personally, I am not here to carry anyone. Besides, 9/10 times when you question these type of people why they are doing that, you will be insulted, overall met with hostility, or the famous "you don't pay my sub."

They're right, I don't pay their sub, what they don't seem to understand is that they don't pay mine either. No one is under any obligation to play with these kinds of people and carry them.

Why do some people defend this behaviour?

I'm sorry but how is wearing terribly under leveled gear or plain and simply the wrong gear acceptable? Why is wasting the time of everyone else in the party acceptable? 1 person isn't more important than the group, it's the other way around.

Wearing the wrong gear is not considered playing your own way.
Wearing level 50 gear in a level 60 dungeon is not considered playing your own way.
No one is asking anyone to be the top players.
No one is asking anyone to minmax and output the highest level of damage possible.
No one is asking for anything out of this world.
We are asking for BASIC COMPETENCE.

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This is bannable offence.
You are asking someone to get ilvl above requirements.
In roulette for 50-60lvl item level is synced to the duty so it only requires 45 ilvl, on lvl 70 dungeons roulette there is an avg item level of 330 required, an 360 for expert dungeons.
If they could play the duty, they meet the requirements and you are just obstructing their gameplay by kicking them for gear they wear, its against the ToS.

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Originally Posted by guardin

this is just sad....like its not even that serious. i hope players kick you for being rude

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How is he being rude? Asking why a caster is wearing STR/DEX gear is a legitimate question. If that player starts to argue after someone tries to help them and corrects bad info they were given, how is that Jack being rude?

It almost sounds like you're one of those people who would argue and get mad when told the bad info you've been told is wrong.

Quote:

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In roulette for 50-60lvl item level is synced to the duty so it only requires 45 ilvl, on lvl 70 dungeons roulette there is an avg item level of 330 required, an 360 for expert dungeons.

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The problem with wearing the wrong gear is it allows you to circumvent the item level requirements to join. Say for example someone in all crafting gear can still reach ilvl 45, but they'd absolutely not be qualified to run a lvl 50. Which is really my point about the toxicity of people wearing the wrong gear.

However, I agree with you that if someone is decked out in job appropriate lvl 45 gear, and they get into a lvl 50--they should be fine.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

How is he being rude? Asking why a caster is wearing STR/DEX gear is a legitimate question. If that player starts to argue after someone tries to help them and corrects bad info they were given, how is that Jack being rude?

It almost sounds like you're one of those people who would argue and get mad when told the bad info you've been told is wrong.

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He was trolling me in another thread, so I think he's just that kind of a person. I debated about replying or not, but I'll save you the headache!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

This is bannable offence.
You are asking someone to get ilvl above requirements.
In roulette for 50-60lvl item level is synced to the duty so it only requires 45 ilvl, on lvl 70 dungeons roulette there is an avg item level of 330 required, an 360 for expert dungeons.
If they could play the duty, they meet the requirements and you are just obstructing their gameplay by kicking them for gear they wear, its against the ToS.

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https://i.imgur.com/Ed2e99n.jpg

Their playstyle doesn't fit with the rest of the party or my own at all. Therefore I am removing them from the party, which requires more people than just me, and if they get removed, that means multiple people in the party agreed we are better off without them. Not to mention you can circumvent that "restriction" by equipping the WRONG gear, for example having accessories for magical damage when you're pure melee.

End of story. There is no discussion to be had here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Their playstyle doesn't fit with the rest of the party or my own at all. Therefore I am removing them from the party, which requires more people than just me, and if they get removed, that means multiple people in the party agreed we are better off without them.

End of story. There is no discussion to be had here.

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This is the very truth. You have a majority in the group kicking someone out. Its not easy to get a case of harassment even if the intent of the kick is to harass someone. You'll need evidence of the lines of the players kicking (the other three) saying they are going to kick for reason of the kicked players RL race, gender, religion, ect. Believe it or not, kicking you for your character's race, religion (can we even check that?), class or even how you RP them are all legit reasons to kick.

And the simple matter is, they are going to rule with the majority. If you are playing in a way that disagrees with three other people. YOU are disrupting the play of THREE other people. They have the right not to play with you and to play with each other. If they agree a kick makes this happen, then the kick ought to happen.

The real issue is why anyone would go through the effort to make a report on this? Why would you all get upset over this? If you are kicked from a group because you play a way THREE other people don't like. Why not simply let it go? Why would you even want to group with those people? Why do people want to force grouping with people that don't wish to be with them? This is ultimately a game. We're here to have fun. What is fun about grouping with people who don't like you?

That's the question that remains unanswered.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

This is bannable offence.

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It falls under "Difference of playstyle", and therefore not a bannable offense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

You are asking someone to get ilvl above requirements.

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They're hardly asking for anything outlandish.

• Sub-lvl 60, or sub-i270 gear in Bardam's Mettle (lvl 65 dungeon) can be a detriment to the group, especially if it's a tank.
• Running a lvl 70 dungeon without at least having the lvl 70 job set is just pure laziness. I'd understand having some accessories below lvl 70 (although you can get 4 i330 accessories with a total of 220 centurio seals. Less than a day's worth of daily marks).
• Running a lvl 60 dungeon with just lvl 50 gear is, again, pure laziness, as the lvl 60 job quest gives the AF2 set nowadays.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

If they could play the duty, they meet the requirements and you are just obstructing their gameplay by kicking them for gear they wear, its against the ToS.

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Kicking due to "Difference of playstyle" would still be a legit option that doesn't go against the ToS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

This is the very truth. You have a majority in the group kicking someone out. Its not easy to get a case of harassment even if the intent of the kick is to harass someone. You'll need evidence of the lines of the players kicking (the other three) saying they are going to kick for reason of the kicked players RL race, gender, religion, ect. Believe it or not, kicking you for your character's race, religion (can we even check that?), class or even how you RP them are all legit reasons to kick.

And the simple matter is, they are going to rule with the majority. If you are playing in a way that disagrees with three other people. YOU are disrupting the play of THREE other people. They have the right not to play with you and to play with each other. If they agree a kick makes this happen, then the kick ought to happen.

The real issue is why anyone would go through the effort to make a report on this? Why would you all get upset over this? If you are kicked from a group because you play a way THREE other people don't like. Why not simply let it go? Why would you even want to group with those people? Why do people want to force grouping with people that don't wish to be with them? This is ultimately a game. We're here to have fun. What is fun about grouping with people who don't like you?

That's the question that remains unanswered.

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The real question is why doesn't Square action accounts for frivolous reports.

Or maybe they do and we just don't hear about it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eriane_Elis

You do realize that a vast majority of people have duty queue anxiety and that they simply don't want to talk to you and just want you to shut up right?

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This is an MMO. I understand having anxiety (as I also have it), but this isn't our problem. If someone is asking you a question or talking to you about something in relation to the piece of content you're doing and/or gear/skill, then you better speak up and say something. Interacting with people is part of the game and genre, whether you want to or not, so if that's something they want to do then they either do Squadron runs or go play a different genre.

Quote:

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Just let them play however they want to play.

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No thanks. If they don't want to get the gear or learn their rotations, then I want nothing to do with them. This mentality is literally the same reason why we have these types of players, and I can't fathom why this is the only community that actually encourages this type of behavior.

Still no answer on the original topic. Your main beef seems to be improper stats and people carrying that into lvl 70 content. Which they can't. Unless they are wearing gear FAR below the ilvl requirement which would usually mean they couldn't even que for the duty. But whatever. I mean if you see Shire stuff in anything but Ala Mhigo then yeah. Das Boot.

The long/short of it: if you kick a player for gross underperformance (not just dps but like...can't hold hate or can't keep themselves or the party healed or are just constantly down because the mob sneezed) I don't think anyone in this thread would bat an eye. While ilvl affects what duties you can enter it has NO EFFECT WHAT SO EVER on player skill or competency. It's just a minimum to ensure the party can clear the content. The stat thing is a low level duty problem. You better hope we never get a que together because I will not pass that vote unless the person cannot clear the content and I won't even need to look at their gear to know that. Just saying.

If two out of the three players agree then vote kick away. Not like a GM can prove the intent especially if you do not say anything in chat.

End of the day in my opinion a player may be entitled to a certain level of respect but that goes both ways. Though with the way gear works now outside of ilvl we do not have to worry about using wrong stats in current content, and with how easy it is to gear up in this game players have no real excuse to be grossly under geared. Granted that could be subjective.

More important than this conversation is the big question of "why is the forum showing me as lvl 24 when I'm 34" and I still can't start a new topic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The real question is why doesn't Square action accounts for frivolous reports.

Or maybe they do and we just don't hear about it?

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Because frivolous is subjective.

Think about it. Lets say we're in a group. And I kick you. You report it because you feel wronged. What happens?

They're going to look at the party chat. At the first glance they're going to see someone say hello/hi/hey as the dungeon starts. Then a vote kick. What do they action here? In the scenario I just gave, there is nothing said, nothing argued. Just that you poofed out of the dungeon because three people kicked. The GM has nothing to go on. At a glance it seems like a frivolous kick. But as we all know, not all communication is done in game. If I kick you in this scenario, its likely because I'm grouped with 1-2 friends on discord. You're likely never going to even know why. The reason will ultimately be irrelevant (reason may not even be related to this thread entirely).

And this is important because the GM is very likely going to assume some out of game communication either happened. Or you did something that warranted a kick in the eyes of the group. You see there's two things at play here the GM will NOT get involved in.

1. Out of Game communication. SE is not going to action people for activities outside their service. Plain and simple, my actions in my own discord are for me to police, not SE. Even actions that break the TOS/CoC/EULA they won't care nor ever know about. They will have to default to difference in playstyle. Because thats what that translates to in game.

2. Unspoken event happened in play. Maybe you didn't heal when the players thought you should. DPS when you should have. Maybe you didn't do mechanics the way the group thought you should. Notice I didn't say you didn't do them right or wrong. But the way the rest of the group thought you should. You may be doing everything right. But the group has another idea. This also falls under difference in playstyle, you can be kicked for this.

In either case no one is obligated to even tell you why they kicked you. That's the key part. Communication while desired, is not required. There is no duty of players to reconcile. Which is why it makes this whole thing subjective. And also why SE GMs are likely to err on the side of the majority.

This is why only the most egregious reasons for kicking will be actioned. If you reported and they looked at the party chat and saw someone say, "Hey this person is X-ethnicity, lets kick that <insert slur here>" And then you get vote kicked out. Then yes, action will be taken. But if that is said in discord (even if you are present in that channel when it happens) or other outside means. There's just nothing a GM can do. They can only action on things said in game and if they explicitly break a rule.

Otherwise its your word against theirs.

As for wearing the wrong gear. That falls under not playing in the way the group thinks you should. But again, I have to ask. Why would anyone want to group with people who don't like the gear they are wearing? That desire is not something I understand. I'm just putting myself in different shoes here. If I was in a group and they didn't like my gear, and are willing to kick me for it. I don't want to be in a group with them anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Because frivolous is subjective.

Think about it. Lets say we're in a group. And I kick you. You report it because you feel wronged. What happens?

They're going to look at the party chat. At the first glance they're going to see someone say hello/hi/hey as the dungeon starts. Then a vote kick. What do they action here? In the scenario I just gave, there is nothing said, nothing argued. Just that you poofed out of the dungeon because three people kicked. The GM has nothing to go on. At a glance it seems like a frivolous kick. But as we all know, not all communication is done in game. If I kick you in this scenario, its likely because I'm grouped with 1-2 friends on discord. You're likely never going to even know why. The reason will ultimately be irrelevant (reason may not even be related to this thread entirely).

And this is important because the GM is very likely going to assume some out of game communication either happened. Or you did something that warranted a kick in the eyes of the group. You see there's two things at play here the GM will NOT get involved in.

1. Out of Game communication. SE is not going to action people for activities outside their service. Plain and simple, my actions in my own discord are for me to police, not SE. Even actions that break the TOS/CoC/EULA they won't care nor ever know about. They will have to default to difference in playstyle. Because thats what that translates to in game.

2. Unspoken event happened in play. Maybe you didn't heal when the players thought you should. DPS when you should have. Maybe you didn't do mechanics the way the group thought you should. Notice I didn't say you didn't do them right or wrong. But the way the rest of the group thought you should. You may be doing everything right. But the group has another idea. This also falls under difference in playstyle, you can be kicked for this.

In either case no one is obligated to even tell you why they kicked you. That's the key part. Communication while desired, is not required. There is no duty of players to reconcile. Which is why it makes this whole thing subjective. And also why SE GMs are likely to err on the side of the majority.

This is why only the most egregious reasons for kicking will be actioned. If you reported and they looked at the party chat and saw someone say,

Otherwise its your word against theirs.

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its not a question of do you want to group with them, its a question of why they get to waste your time. If you are not a tank/healer, you may have have spent 10-30 minutes in queue, and however long in the dungeon before the kick. So why is the kickee paying the price in a random group finder?

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Originally Posted by Awha

If two out of the three players agree then vote kick away. Not like a GM can prove the intent especially if you do not say anything in chat.

End of the day in my opinion a player may be entitled to a certain level of respect but that goes both ways. Though with the way gear works now outside of ilvl we do not have to worry about using wrong stats in current content, and with how easy it is to gear up in this game players have no real excuse to be grossly under geared. Granted that could be subjective.

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we discussed this before, but ultimately you are conflating what should one do, and what can someone be punished for.

for example, if you and a friend punch some one in the face, and no one else sees, and you have fake alibi, you probably wont go to jail. That doesnt mean you should go around punching people in the face.

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Originally Posted by splinter1545

This is an MMO. I understand having anxiety (as I also have it), but this isn't our problem. If someone is asking you a question or talking to you about something in relation to the piece of content you're doing and/or gear/skill, then you better speak up and say something. Interacting with people is part of the game and genre, whether you want to or not, so if that's something they want to do then they either do Squadron runs or go play a different genre.



No thanks. If they don't want to get the gear or learn their rotations, then I want nothing to do with them. This mentality is literally the same reason why we have these types of players, and I can't fathom why this is the only community that actually encourages this type of behavior.

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you have those type of players because the content allows it, and because its an mmo, full of many players of various skill levels in a random grouping tool. If most people kicked based on their subjective performance evaluations, they would have to severely limit the kick feature, or introduce strict penalties for kicking in random duty finder. The game does allow you to search for others with more specific criteria, thats what party finder is for.

this is because the main purpose of the random duty finder is to group any player who wants to do content, if it becomes a losing proposition to queue, it cannot achieve its purpose.

imo, kicks in duty finder should be more strictly enforced, if its not for cheating/harrassment/afk. kicks in party finder should be the bar that you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Their playstyle doesn't fit with the rest of the party or my own at all. Therefore I am removing them from the party, which requires more people than just me, and if they get removed, that means multiple people in the party agreed we are better off without them. Not to mention you can circumvent that "restriction" by equipping the WRONG gear, for example having accessories for magical damage when you're pure melee.

End of story. There is no discussion to be had here.

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You did not got what i was trying to explain here.
If someone has a gear that allows him to play X content and get into the duty, especially 50-60 or 70 lvl then you cant kick them because of it. Kicking someone because they are "undergeared" which in case of a roulette requirements are not, does not fall under the "different playstyles". Playstyle is not a gear you wear, its how you play your character.
In new ToS there is a line about "obstruction of play" which says:

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"Obstruction of play" means all behaviour in general that obstructs another person's game play. Below is a non-exhaustive list of examples of obstruction of play:
・Improper expulsion voting
This means excluding another person by manipulation of expulsion voting.

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This saying it clearly, you cant kick people freely out from the duty. If game allows someone to play X content then he is supposed to play X content, and there is nothing that would say someone is "not fit" for duty, if he could enter the duty he is most likely fit for it, game gives you a whole 120 minutes to finish it for this exact reason in case that the whole party would be undergeared. Of course it would depend on GM, but if you happen to kick someone from lvl 60 because he is wearing shinryu gear or something that line, he could report you and give you trouble. So you may want to not kicking people so often or at all for this exact reason, since rules are cheesy and it is easier than ever to ban someone, and if there would few people who would report you for the exact same thing, it is all in the GMs logs, they may look closer at you and grant you a prize.

Thats how mafia works ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

This saying it clearly, you cant kick people freely out from the duty. If game allows someone to play X content then he is supposed to play X content, and there is nothing that would say someone is "not fit" for duty

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You can queue for Castrum Abania, the highest tier of leveling dungeon we have right now wearing a level 1 weapon and no gear at all.
You cannot reasonably expect someone to be just gracefully accepted that way.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

You can queue for Castrum Abania, the highest tier of leveling dungeon we have right now wearing a level 1 weapon and no gear at all.
You cannot reasonably expect someone to be just gracefully accepted that way.

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This one is ilvl synced, so kicking someone for wearing lvl 50 gear for example would be abusing vote-kick.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

You can queue for Castrum Abania, the highest tier of leveling dungeon we have right now wearing a level 1 weapon and no gear at all.
You cannot reasonably expect someone to be just gracefully accepted that way.

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I think I'll zone in like this next time I'm on just for giggles.