Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

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Originally Posted by Gemina

From what I can tell, this tank wasn't doing what the party WANTED him to do; not doing what he wanted to do. He was there to tank, was doing it, and got kicked anyway.

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I don't agree with why they were kicked, but the group had a right to do so. A "difference in playstyles" is a legitimate reason and that's exactly what it was. I probably wouldn't have initiated the kick myself or even clicked yes though because it seems rather petty. Now if they were pulling slow and not tanking what they were pulling? I wouldn't have hesitated and would have had no regrets. But if someone is doing their job at least mostly correctly then I just suck it up and think "well, this is what I signed up for" because the DF is a mixed bag.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I don't agree with why they were kicked, but the group had a right to do so. A "difference in playstyles" is a legitimate reason and that's exactly what it was. I probably wouldn't have initiated the kick myself or even clicked yes though because it seems rather petty. Now if they were pulling slow and not tanking what they were pulling? I wouldn't have hesitated and would have had no regrets. But if someone is doing their job at least mostly correctly then I just suck it up and think "well, this is what I signed up for" because the DF is a mixed bag.

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The only legitimate reasons to vote dismiss are:
- AFK;
- Offline;
- Harassment;
- Cheating.

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Originally Posted by Greven

The only legitimate reasons to vote dismiss are:
- AFK;
- Offline;
- Harassment;
- Cheating.

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And a difference in playstyles. This was stated back in ARR when the kick was first implemented. They just don't police much it since it generally sorts itself out unless there was an actual abuse of the system which they do take pretty seriously. Impeding the progress of a group could be considered harassment though depending on what was said and done.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

And a difference in playstyles. This was stated back in ARR when the kick was first implemented.

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I did vote dismiss sometimes, last time was quite some time ago indeed, but I don't remember seeing that as one of the reasons in the list

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Originally Posted by Greven

I did vote dismiss sometimes, last time was quite some time ago indeed, but I don't remember seeing that as one of the reasons in the list

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It's not on the list but it's a thing.

It's a courtesy to pull more than 1 pack of mobs if your group can handle it. It's also a courtesy to put up with it so as neither group were willing to be courteous I'd say it evens out.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Kicking a tank who refuses to play effectively isn't harassment, nor do they get penalized.
If you want the reward from the dungeon, you gotta be willing to work for it.

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Clearing the dungeon is effective. Be it small or large pulls. Not everyone is efficient.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

It's not on the list but it's a thing.

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I understand what you mean, if it was the case, which never happened, I would ask to be kicked if I was the issue.

"Being a thing" doesn't make it legitimate though.
Think about it: an unwritten rule, known only by you and another person that can be easily used to justify kicking whoever you want in whichever situation.. it's not valid, it's not even a thing.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I don't agree with why they were kicked, but the group had a right to do so. A "difference in playstyles" is a legitimate reason and that's exactly what it was. I probably wouldn't have initiated the kick myself or even clicked yes though because it seems rather petty. Now if they were pulling slow and not tanking what they were pulling? I wouldn't have hesitated and would have had no regrets. But if someone is doing their job at least mostly correctly then I just suck it up and think "well, this is what I signed up for" because the DF is a mixed bag.

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"A difference in playstyles" is not a valid reason to kick if they are playing as intended (which they were).

In fact, them kicking the tank for not playing the way they like actually falls specifically under reportable offences of the new ToS. So regardless of whether someone agrees or not that it was harassment (it was), they can't argue that it was against the ToS and reportable (if the tank felt the need to report them).

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Tanks indeed set the pace.
The pace should be as fast as possible.

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It's about when and where though. I've been running into a lot of new tanks recently. I'm more than happy to let them go as fast/slow as they need to while they're trying to learn, and let them know they can ask me anything if they need it. I have some friends that just returned to the game after taking a break for a couple years almost, and he's beyond rusty.

If people are upfront about wanting to slow down, I'm more than happy to slow down a bit and blast the enemies as a healer (When I'm a healer that is), this doesn't include times I'm in a dungeon and the tank has a first time notice.

I feel like people are the most understanding when an expac drops though. Everything is new to everyone, and a lot of people do slow down when learning a dungeon/new boss/ect.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

"A difference in playstyles" is not a valid reason to kick if they are playing as intended (which they were).

In fact, them kicking the tank for not playing the way they like actually falls specifically under reportable offences of the new ToS. So regardless of whether someone agrees or not that it was harassment (it was), they can't argue that it was against the ToS and reportable (if the tank felt the need to report them).

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it actually doesnt fall under reportable offenses. kicking them is not forcing their playstyle upon them. its choosing to simply not play with them entirely.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

it actually doesnt fall under reportable offenses. kicking them is not forcing their playstyle upon them. its choosing to simply not play with them entirely.

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Huh? You're not serious, right? It's the very definition of forcing their style of play on tank. "Play our way or get kicked"

Thankfully the kicked person was a tank, so they can just instant-queue back in, but their actions were petty, immature and irrational. Especially since I guarantee they wasted more time waiting for a tank replacement than they would have saved by mass pulling.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

So one person has a penalty forced on them because the run will take 5 mins longer? I’m not even a tank and this annoys me. Never mind it’s this type of behavior that helped facilitate their “new rules”. If the tank is steadily pulling and the dungeon is clearing kicking them is harassment. If it bothers a player that much to not large pull they could drop the duty. Oh! But wait! If they do that then they are penalized. So they penalize someone else instead. If I ever witnessed this I might report the others myself. If I ask a tank to large pull and they refuse in a non douchebag manner then I can stay or I can leave. If they want to be toxic then they can go.

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You seem to enjoy misuse of "penalty." It's not a penalty to kick an obstinate tank; it is a penalty for the party to keep them around.

Thankfully the will of the group will always win out; it doesn't matter what bleeding heart policies Square puts in place or what they are percieved to implement. If the group decides they want to replace someone, that person will be replaced.

Square could go as far as to disable kicking entirely and you'd just see more people randomly going afk or offline to dodge and cause runs to collapse. You can't force people to want to play with you, and Square can't make that happen either.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Huh? You're not serious, right? It's the very definition of forcing their style of play on tank. "Play our way or get kicked"

Thankfully the kicked person was a tank, so they can just instant-queue back in, but their actions were petty, immature and irrational. Especially since I guarantee they wasted more time waiting for a tank replacement than they would have saved by mass pulling.

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"adapt to this group or dont play with this group, play with someone else"

the group is not obligated to play with the tank. very simple.

"wasted more time waiting for a tank replacement"
>thread was made by the replacement tank who they asked for from their discord.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

"adapt to this group or dont play with this group, play with someone else"

the group is not obligated to play with the tank. very simple.

"wasted more time waiting for a tank replacement"
>thread was made by the replacement tank who they asked for from their discord.

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The time to replace a tank is greatly overblown on these forums, and if more people knew this a lot of tanks would take a hit to their ego. I've only had difficulty replacing one of my tanks once, and that was in Castrum Abania. It's often difficult to find replacements for that dungeon at 4am though.

Keep in mind join in progress takes priority over a new group formation, so you're getting priority if you need to replace a tank. That's from each of the roulettes, including mentor roulette.

Everywhere else, don't think twice about initiating a kick if they're causing trouble for a party; especially if you're a healer. You can play the "heal the samurai" minigame instead. Both you and the samurai will love it.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

"wasted more time waiting for a tank replacement"
>thread was made by the replacement tank who they asked for from their discord.

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Yes, I'm aware. It probably took at least 2-3 minutes to contact the guy on discord and get him logged in and added to the group. Which is about the time they would have saved from mass pulling.

Like I said, petty, immature and irrational people (since they didn't save any time by kicking and replacing... just made themselves look like jerks).

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Yes, I'm aware. It probably took at least 2-3 minutes to contact the guy on discord and get him logged in and added to the group. Which is about the time they would have saved from mass pulling.

Like I said, petty, immature and irrational people (since they didn't save any time by kicking and replacing... just made themselves look like jerks).

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Kicking someone isn't about making a run faster; at best it has a neutral effect on completion time since you do often need to wait for a replacement to take a shortcut and regroup with you.

It's simply about the group deciding how they want to spend their time together.

If the group decides they don't want to wait for the whm that goes afk between every pull, then kick the whm. It doesn't matter why they go afk.
If the group decides they don't want to wait for individual pulls and the tank won't or can't deliver, then kick the tank. It doesn't matter why the tank doesn't deliver.
If the group decides they don't want an extra phase of a boss due to poor damage, or don't want to have trouble with a dps check, then kick the under-performing dps. It doesn't matter why the DPS is less capable than a chocobo companion.

Through voting, the will of the group is absolute; Square takes the decision out of their hands in that vote. This is the most sensible choice, since the alternative requires control over something Square has no authority over: a players' desire to spend time with another in their party.

Square doesn't kick you from your party. The people you were partied with do.

If you want to spend more time partied with people, then bring something to the table. Don't expect a seat with other people just because you breathe oxygen.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The time to replace a tank is greatly overblown on these forums, and if more people knew this a lot of tanks would take a hit to their ego. I've only had difficulty replacing one of my tanks once, and that was in Castrum Abania. It's often difficult to find replacements for that dungeon at 4am though.

Keep in mind join in progress takes priority over a new group formation, so you're getting priority if you need to replace a tank. That's from each of the roulettes, including mentor roulette.

Everywhere else, don't think twice about initiating a kick if they're causing trouble for a party; especially if you're a healer. You can play the "heal the samurai" minigame instead. Both you and the samurai will love it.

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It probably changes from DC to DC because from my experience kicking a tank or an healer most of the times lead to a VERY long wait if ever, sometimes t's just better to drop and start queue again.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

You seem to enjoy misuse of "penalty." It's not a penalty to kick an obstinate tank; it is a penalty for the party to keep them around.

Thankfully the will of the group will always win out; it doesn't matter what bleeding heart policies Square puts in place or what they are percieved to implement. If the group decides they want to replace someone, that person will be replaced.

Square could go as far as to disable kicking entirely and you'd just see more people randomly going afk or offline to dodge and cause runs to collapse. You can't force people to want to play with you, and Square can't make that happen either.

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The moment one enters duty roulettes they know they could find every kind of player.

That tank was doing his job. They wanted something different and specific, they could've even put up a PF, ask a friend or go tank themselves.
Why they didn't, I wonder? Maybe because there was no tank available.

And I’m very sorry but your answer just spur too much stupidity: people would prefer to go AFK instead of complete the dungeon they queued for in duty roulettes, with a tank doing normal pulls, that would take at worse a few minutes more? Wasting what, like 15 minutes instead of 3. Why?

It just sounds to me that you took it too personal and based that comment on your personal experience which is not the exact same thing happened in this case.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Kicking someone isn't about making a run faster; at best it has a neutral effect on completion time since you do often need to wait for a replacement to take a shortcut and regroup with you.

It's simply about the group deciding how they want to spend their time together.

If the group decides they don't want to wait for the whm that goes afk between every pull, then kick the whm. It doesn't matter why they go afk.
If the group decides they don't want to wait for individual pulls and the tank won't or can't deliver, then kick the tank. It doesn't matter why the tank doesn't deliver.
If the group decides they don't want an extra phase of a boss due to poor damage, or don't want to have trouble with a dps check, then kick the under-performing dps. It doesn't matter why the DPS is less capable than a chocobo companion.

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Umm... the examples you give for the WHM and the DPS are actually valid and acceptable reasons to kick those jobs respectively. The example you give of the tank is not a valid reason. You're attempting to shoehorn a "reason" that doesn't actually exist for purpose of your narrative.

In the WHM case, they are wasting significant amounts of time by going AFK constantly.
In the DPS case, they are wasting significant amounts of time by not completing the content in a timely manner.

But in the case of the tank you bring up, the tank isn't wasting significant time at all. Pulling single groups rather than mass pulling has been proven time and again to not have a significant affect on clear time. At best there is no difference in time, and at worst it's a few minutes slower (kinda like how people who speed 10 miles over the speed limit only gain about 2 minutes on average).

You are completely correct about your healer and dps examples, however.

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Originally Posted by Greven

It probably changes from DC to DC because from my experience kicking a tank or an healer most of the times lead to a VERY long wait if ever, sometimes t's just better to drop and start queue again.

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That's fine. Once you kick someone you can leave without a cooldown. If you'd rather not wait for a replacement, then feel free to hop out so the rest of the party can continue without you should they desire.

As for what you consider to be stupidity is the simple fact of the matter: if a party doesn't want an obstinate tank, especially if they're willing to go as far as to initiate a kick, then their will is absolute. That tank is gone.

Square doesn't have the authority to force people to play together.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Umm... the examples you give for the WHM and the DPS are actually valid and acceptable reasons to kick those jobs respectively. The example you give of the tank is not a valid reason. You're attempting to shoehorn a "reason" that doesn't actually exist for purpose of your narrative.

In the WHM case, they are wasting significant amounts of time by going AFK constantly.
In the DPS case, they are wasting significant amounts of time by not completing the content in a timely manner.

But in the case of the tank you bring up, the tank isn't wasting significant time at all. Pulling single groups rather than mass pulling has been proven time and again to not have a significant affect on clear time. At best there is no difference in time, and at worst it's a few minutes slower (kinda like how people who speed 10 miles over the speed limit only gain about 2 minutes on average).

You are completely correct about your healer and dps examples, however.

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Throw out the examples, then.

If two people in the party really hate your glamour -- perhaps they find it offensive -- you are kicked.

If two people recognize your name and want you gone, you are kicked.

If someone blindly clicks yes to a vote kick, you are kicked.

If you get hung up on justifications for this or that, you'll miss the more important fact of the matter: you are kicked, and Square is going to see that as the party didn't want you there. That, in itself, carries more weight than any sort of rule Square can put up on their TOS. They cannot force people to want to play together.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

If you get hung up on justifications for this or that, you'll miss the more important fact of the matter: you are kicked, and Square is going to see that as the party didn't want you there. That, in itself, carries more weight than any sort of rule Square can put up on their TOS. They cannot force people to want to play together.

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If SE determines that the reason for kicking the person is an abusive one, they can and have warned and banned people for abusing the kick system. This "SE doesn't have the right to..." BS is just that. SE has every right if they think it breaks their ToS.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Calling your bluff on that. Any incidence where you've heard of people getting actioned had been down to harassment in chat, not the kick itself.

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It's not a bluff. My cousin works for SE's CS. She has told me about quite a few cases where people have been warned/banned for abusing the kick feature (kicking without valid reason), among other reasons people get banned. Kicking without a valid reason is and of itself considered harassment by SE's CS.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Huh? You're not serious, right? It's the very definition of forcing their style of play on tank. "Play our way or get kicked"

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You're free to report it, but nothing will happen as it's not against the ToS. Similarly, players are free to kick no-dps healers and DPS that don't know a proper rotation or how to use AoE.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

but their actions were petty, immature and irrational. Especially since I guarantee they wasted more time waiting for a tank replacement than they would have saved by mass pulling.

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It's more about the kicked player's lack of respect for the party's time than it is about the time itself. That run may have taken longer, but if the tank starts pulling more in future runs as a result, that kick will end up saving many hours for other players.

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Originally Posted by Awha

snip

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The party that kicked was completely in the right. Tanks can usually get away with being divas because their role is played by so few, but if the party doesn't have an issue with waiting for a rep, tanks can be held to the same standards as other roles.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Pace is considered a group effort in the sense that it is expected for DPS to AoE, yet if the overall group is capable of larger pulls and the tank says otherwise then in that case the tank is correct is dictating the pace, but I thought pace was a collective effort.

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"Spamming Flash/Overpower/Unleash is too hard so I'm only going to do small pulls"
That's their only argument. Laugh at them and then kick.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

If two people in the party really hate your glamour -- perhaps they find it offensive -- you are kicked.

If two people recognize your name and want you gone, you are kicked.

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Those have no effect on gameplay so those reasons wouldn't be allowed. Same for race.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

If SE determines that the reason for kicking the person is an abusive one, they can and have warned and banned people for abusing the kick system. This "SE doesn't have the right to..." BS is just that. SE has every right if they think it breaks their ToS.

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Calling your bluff on that. Any incidence where you've heard of people getting actioned had been down to harassment in chat, not the kick itself. (Past the addition of the time and loot lockout)

Furthermore, the TOS can't make players want to play together. Square can encourage players to do that, such as when they include a duty finder penalty, but they can't make players act together.

If the party wants you gone, hell or high water will not keep you there tos or no tos.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Calling your bluff on that. Any incidence where you've heard of people getting actioned had been down to harassment in chat, not the kick itself. (Past the addition of the time and loot lockout)

Furthermore, the TOS can't make players want to play together. Square can encourage players to do that, such as when they include a duty finder penalty, but they can't make players act together.

If the party wants you gone, hell or high water will not keep you there tos or no tos.

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Of course, if majority vote dismiss on a player that player will get kicked. That's for sure. The question posed by the OP was another though, more about understanding the context and the feeling of entitlement.

BTW do we have any proof that vote dismiss abuse is not against ToS and can't incur punishment?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

If SE determines that the reason for kicking the person is an abusive one, they can and have warned and banned people for abusing the kick system. This "SE doesn't have the right to..." BS is just that. SE has every right if they think it breaks their ToS.



It's not a bluff. My cousin works for SE's CS. She has told me about quite a few cases where people have been warned/banned for abusing the kick feature (kicking without valid reason), among other reasons people get banned. Kicking without a valid reason is and of itself considered harassment by SE's CS.

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If this is true, and I have no reason to believe it is anything more than "my dad works at Nintendo" then it's so rare as to be insignificant compared to the vast majority of cases.

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Originally Posted by Greven

Of course, if majority vote dismiss on a player that player will get kicked. That's for sure. The question posed by the OP was another though.

BTW do we have any proof that vote dismiss abuse is not against ToS and can't incur in any punishment?

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We only have the TOS and policies put in place by SE. anecdotal evidence is hard to believe because there tends to always be more to the story.

Edit. I just googled being banned from ffxiv with a few different reasons and there are stories of being banned for all that I googled. Of course it is again anecdotal so hard to say they have any validity.

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Originally Posted by Greven

Of course, if majority vote dismiss on a player that player will get kicked. That's for sure. The question posed by the OP was another though, more about understanding the context and the feeling of entitlement.

BTW do we have any proof that vote dismiss abuse is not against ToS and can't incur punishment?

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We have a gm post explaining the four options for kick are not an exhaustive list, and there are an infinite number of ways to be considered disruptive and to justify calling something disruptive. Something like glamor being something you can kick over would be hyperbole, but can't really be ruled out due to how wide open their explanation is-- ultimately that would have to be glamor used in such an obnoxious, unintended way as to take the party out of the dungeon and want to argue.

For anything less, you'd have trouble getting the vote unless it was never spoken about.

Gm aside though, if people don't want to play with you, you can't compel them to do so. That's like kindergarten tier social skills.

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Originally Posted by Greven

BTW do we have any proof that vote dismiss abuse is not against ToS and can't incur punishment?

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Vote dismiss abuse is against the ToS and is punishable, but it has to be classified as abuse. Dismissing a tank that doesn't want to pull more mobs, a healer that doesn't use offensive spells or a DPS that doesn't use AoE wouldn't be considered abuse.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Vote dismiss abuse is against the ToS and is punishable, but it has to be classified as abuse. Dismissing a tank that doesn't want to pull more mobs, a healer that doesn't use offensive spells or a DPS that doesn't use AoE wouldn't be considered abuse.

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Eh. Think I’ll error on the side of I want to play the game and not risk being suspended or banned after they went through the effort of adding to the TOS. The extra few minutes that the run might take are not worth possibly losing access to the hobby I enjoy. Just my take. I find it hard to believe that SE would post rules and then not enforce them. I mean I doubt they suspend or ban on one offense, assuming the offense wasn’t a large one, but I imagine they look for patterns. So for me to vote kick the “offense” needs to be more notable than doing normal pulls or a healer not dpsing.

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TL;DR: The tank sets the pace, the healer validates the pace, and the DPS need to enjoy the fact that they're still not in queue.

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Pretty much my opinion on the subject.

You wanna set the pace, you're free to go tank. Don't want to go tank? Yeah, most people don't; that's why DF still has tank shortages.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Eh. Think I’ll error on the side of I want to play the game and not risk being suspended or banned after they went through the effort of adding to the TOS. The extra few minutes that the run might take are not worth possibly losing access to the hobby I enjoy. Just my take. I find it hard to believe that SE would post rules and then not enforce them. I mean I doubt they suspend or ban on one offense, assuming the offense wasn’t a large one, but I imagine they look for patterns. So for me to vote kick the “offense” needs to be more notable than doing normal pulls or a healer not dpsing.

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Ultimately, that's your line to draw.

There's a point in the sand where, if Square were to action you, you'd shrug at them and say "so what?"

Because if they'd action you for what you felt was necessary to enjoy the game, they no longer provide a game you'd care to play.

In my own case, I kick tanks that refuse to pick up adds whether a dps pulled them or not. And I don't care if Square leaps to their defense. So what.

I've only needed to do it a handful of times over the time I've played, but the vote always succeeds (remember, the dps tanked for the tank so I get a free yes vote on the kick) and a GM *never* comes calling.

I'd simply say the tank refused to tank, so I got rid of them with my party. The GM cannot object without destroying my confidence in the leadership of the game.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Ultimately, that's your line to draw.

There's a point in the sand where, if Square were to action you, you'd shrug at them and say "so what?"

Because if they'd action you for what you felt was necessary to enjoy the game, they no longer provide a game you'd care to play.

In my own case, I kick tanks that refuse to pick up adds whether a dps pulled them or not. And I don't care if Square leaps to their defense. So what.

I've only needed to do it a handful of times over the time I've played, but the vote always succeeds (remember, the dps tanked for the tank so I get a free yes vote on the kick) and a GM *never* comes calling.

I'd simply say the tank refused to tank, so I got rid of them with my party. The GM cannot object without destroying my confidence in the leadership of the game.

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See the thing is a tank refusing to tank all the pull is something most players would argue is a legitimate reason to kick though. So that example would be one I wouldn’t fault anyone for kicking assuming they politely requested the tank to make sure to grab all the adds. It’s a far cry from kicking a tank because “I don’t feel he was pulling enough per pull”. One is failure to perform the role just like a dps that can’t meet the dps check; while the other is purely a personal preference on how to run the dungeon. I think that is kind of the distinctions they could possibly make if/when a report is made.

Also I wouldn’t be in a game I didn’t care to play. And If they sanctioned me because I broke the TOS that is on me and my behavior regardless of whether or not I agreed with the rule. When we play we are choosing to abide by their rules. We all accept the TOS when choose to play a MMO.

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Originally Posted by Astarotha

i see it as a bit of a mix with considerations for the content and gear, there is literally no reason to large pull in satasha with a group that has one or no aoe, because it puts more onus on the healer to heal rather than allowing them to dps as well and kill things faster (problems arise when in copperbell the blam is insistent on pulling ahead of you and the healer refuses to heal you which keeps killing you on those large pulls and both of them are saying its your fault :tableflip: ), but if you have a well geared healer that knows their job (and isnt an afk fairy healer) generally you can get away with wall pulls

on the flip side of that, wall pulling in fucking bardams, av, and dd is stupid and everyone always wipes because theyre in a damn hurry >.<

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Talking about big pulls in copperbell mine...

Sometime back in heavensward, I was doing roulettes on my ast.
Got in copper Bell normal with a warrior, after the elevator he picked up the first group ran to the second group continue running grab the third group...

And it was at this point that I turned off cleric stance and realized I was not going to be putting out any DPS spells...
That Warrior continued pulling all the way to the point where you have to blow up the wall to progress.

We managed to do it without dying!
It was a little rough here and there but it worked out.

I am late to the discussion but still wanted to post my opinion on this.

I believe that the tank sets the pace because they are the ones that will have to manage the enemies. And if its a new tank I would find it even worse to force them to do something which will often just end in mistakes. It might be annoying to have a slow run but better slow and good then fast and poorly done. Kicking someone should really only be done if they are so bad that they cant tank at all or if they are mean. Otherwise I just find the group to be the bad one if they kick someone for small pulls and depending on how long it takes to get someone else you might even lose time with the kick. On top of that you might even lose the new player as a future tank that might pull faster when they are more confident in their abilities.

In the end people learn at a different pace and things that are fine for some are too much for others.

Enter a PUG and then lamenting you get people who plays as you don't like? Are yer all sirius?

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Ultimately, that's your line to draw.

There's a point in the sand where, if Square were to action you, you'd shrug at them and say "so what?"

Because if they'd action you for what you felt was necessary to enjoy the game, they no longer provide a game you'd care to play.

In my own case, I kick tanks that refuse to pick up adds whether a dps pulled them or not. And I don't care if Square leaps to their defense. So what.

I've only needed to do it a handful of times over the time I've played, but the vote always succeeds (remember, the dps tanked for the tank so I get a free yes vote on the kick) and a GM *never* comes calling.

I'd simply say the tank refused to tank, so I got rid of them with my party. The GM cannot object without destroying my confidence in the leadership of the game.

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Well i tank often and when i do i set the pace i pull at. Which usually is wall to wall but sometimes i pull smaller. What I absolutely dont want is dps pulling for me. Usually i just let them keep the mobs in those cases.
With big groups its not allways easy to even see which ones you dont have agro on if they arent on your agro list due to being pulled by someone else.
Also the one who pulls gets a lead on the agro table so you are making life a whole lot more difficult for the tank.
If you want to kick me as tank then fine i'll prop be in a new party before you get your replacement.
Know that i intend to go into shadowbringers as main warrior. :D

I’m curious is there actual statistical data that shows large pulls make a dungeon go faster? I’m just wondering because with huge pulls you loose a bit of healer dps because they have to concentrate solely on healing, the dps will also not have infinite tp and eventually have to switch to single target. Also why is there this obsession with making dungeons go as fast as possible? The are the staple of the game, should they not be enjoyable to run at any speed?

I’m curious is there actual statistical data that shows large pulls make a dungeon go faster? I’m just wondering because with huge pulls you loose a bit of healer dps because they have to concentrate solely on healing, the dps will also not have infinite tp and eventually have to switch to single target. Also why is there this obsession with making dungeons go as fast as possible? The are the staple of the game, should they not be enjoyable to run at any speed?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Awha

Possible to whom, the tank or the group?

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Both obviously.
Your job as a tank is to pull as smoothly and hard as your gear and the group can handle.

Naturally it takes a few failed attempt to find those limits, so typically the first pull is always a coin toss. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Indefiinable

I’m curious is there actual statistical data that shows large pulls make a dungeon go faster? I’m just wondering because with huge pulls you loose a bit of healer dps

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You don't.
Mobs don't hit hard enough and there are tank cooldowns.
Trust me, AE is A LOT faster.

Leveling dungeons excluded, those mobs hit like trucks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Indefiinable

Also why is there this obsession with making dungeons go as fast as possible? The are the staple of the game, should they not be enjoyable to run at any speed?

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Because, due to the fact that mobs in ex dungeons hit like wet noodles with self esteem issues, it is extremely boring for both, tanks and healers to pull individual groups.