Why are standards seen as a crime in this game?

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

Yes that can happen the list that can affect one player concentration is vast and unfortunately are things that aren't under our control so whats the big news here? None.
Its for you to have notion you are playing with flawed humans and not with perfect robots.

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I don’t think the way to do that is to automatically assume that an individual is burdened with a mental or physical illness. Most people that I know who have mental or physical illnesses would much rather people treat them like normal people—not give them special benefit of the doubts because of ailments they may not be able to control.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

And they're welcome to do so, at their discretion. But no one is under any obligation to do the same, and that is not an opinion.

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But I don't know why is this even on the debate side because I never wrote that other players are under any obligation what I actually wrote is that would be helpful if persons have the ability to put on the other players shoes and do not jump fast into assumptions of "does not want to play the game My WaAaYyYy" and might be other situation irl, on how one decide to do the content is their personal decision.
Personally don't mind if other players have different rotations for the same roles or for one reason or other miss one or other aoe doesn't make me go hysterical or cry like a baby in foruns setting a huge fuss

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I don’t think the way to do that is to automatically assume that an individual is burdened with a mental or physical illness. Most people that I know who have mental or physical illnesses would much rather people treat them like normal people—not give them special benefit of the doubts because of ailments they may not be able to control.

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Personally won't assume either that an individual is just playing the game in a sense it doesn't want to play the game like it was described many times here always keep in mind those possibilities and do not treat them differently.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I think what Awha is pointing out is, a normal human's base response to someone doing poorly is "They can do better." You're advocating, essentially, to have shut lips because if they're not doing well they could be brain-damaged. Even if that's not what you said, that is what it comes off as to the observer.

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It can be any situation we have no way to know and it can be also that at that moment they can't do better and even if others get that upset with "their do better" instead of complaining in forums perhaps giving the best example in game would be of much better help.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

It can be any situation we have no way to know and it can be also that at that moment they can't do better and even if others get that upset with "their do better" instead of complaining in forums perhaps giving the best example in game would be of much better help.

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The exact thing could be said about the players being told they can do better but instead complain about it on the forums, cause believe me we do have people playing victim when it's made clear they could do better. How about improving themselves in the game and thus setting an example to others? That would be of much better help to everyone else.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

The exact thing could be said about the players being told they can do better but instead complain about it on the forums, cause believe me we do have people playing victim when it's made clear they could do better. How about improving themselves in the game and thus setting an example to others? That would be of much better help to everyone else.

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And you can of course advise as everyone probably once in a while did receive directions on how to play their role rotation better but for example in similar situations for the same role happened personally to receive two contradictory directions from two different players.

What would be good to solve this kind of unnecessary dramas if SE sets an official standard to play every role that way there is no disagreements regarding such and players do not have to hesitate in what direction should choose for a punctual situation in game.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

It can be any situation we have no way to know and it can be also that at that moment they can't do better and even if others get that upset with "their do better" instead of complaining in forums perhaps giving the best example in game would be of much better help.

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Again, your argument sounds like "Assume anyone doing poorly is disabled in some way." That's terrible.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Again, your argument sounds like "Assume anyone doing poorly is disabled in some way." That's terrible.

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Wow distorting what I wrote wont help you either again this is getting old I did wrote that the irl reasons that affect one person concentration can be included in a vast list did mention some examples, unfortunately the list extents since we have no way to know to presume it is the "not playing My WaAaYyYy" excuse is as terrible.

Myself have days who am with a percentage of disability also due to external factors and do not take it that heartily to talk about it.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m sorry. I really don’t mean to be that person. I’m trying to follow your line of thinking, but are you typing like this on purpose?

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The more I read.. the more I'm thinking english isn't their first language. .. I hope.

I'm not distorting what you wrote. I'm telling you what it looks like to the observer. Do with it what you will, I don't pay your sub.

Your argument boils down to: "Don't criticize somebody who is not performing well: put yourself in their shoes. What if they're disabled?" They very well could be disabled, but I'm not going to assume that of them just because they're not performing well. If they tell me they're disabled, I'll believe it, and even accommodate them (I'm usually silent in DF anyway) but it's not something I'll infer based on performance.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I'm not distorting what you wrote. I'm telling you what it looks like to the observer. Do with it what you will, I don't pay your sub.

Your argument boils down to: "Don't criticize somebody who is not performing well: put yourself in their shoes. What if they're disabled?" They very well could be disabled, but I'm not going to assume that of them just because they're not performing well. If they tell me they're disabled, I'll believe it, and even accommodate them (I'm usually silent in DF anyway) but it's not something I'll infer based on performance.

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You hitting again the same key over and over again and sorry if is a bit repetitive but to clarify for the 3rd time I did wrote the list of motives that can affect one person concentration is vast and gave some examples not just disabled ones.
Yes I did wrote that won't do one unnecessary drama in SE forums just because a casual player has a different rotation for the same role or missed punctually one or other aoe and did wrote if you please can reread the best way to help a player do what you consider better is to give yourself the example in game and not by drama posts.

Also wrote that players in their majority learn better in a chilled environment inside game and not via hysterical dramatic posts made up to feed someone else ego because they aren't playing their perfect rotation standard.

If you please can open your eyes to read what was written would help am not saying "do not teach the recently joined players or do not offer advise if you find necessary" am stating that you can and should do it yes by setting yourself as example inside game and offer directions for one role but be sure you are in agreement to the rotations and directions given by the previous players.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m sorry. I really don’t mean to be that person. I’m trying to follow your line of thinking, but are you typing like this on purpose?

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Sory sometimes miss use the correction system

I keep repeating myself because you keep repeating yourself. Think on that.

Also I would assume the majority of players don't come to the forum, so they don't see these "hysterical dramatic posts made up to feed someone else ego" in the first place.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

Personally won't assume either that an individual is just playing the game in a sense it doesn't want to play the game like it was described many times here always keep in mind those possibilities and do not treat them differently.

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I treat everyone the same. I just disagree with your premise that we should treat people differently on the assumption that maybe they have other things going on that are out of their control. If you didn’t mean mental or physical illnesses, then I apologize for misunderstanding. But your talk of psychotherapy is what pointed me in that direction.

I think you should cool it on the meme speak, though. I’m guessing that the three quotes I quoted from you originally were made like that on purpose. If that’s the case, there’s no need for that. Make your arguments more intelligible, and maybe people would stop misunderstanding what you’re saying.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

The more I read.. the more I'm thinking english isn't their first language. .. I hope.

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Given the way they keep typing “my wAaaYyayyY” or whatever, I’m guessing that they’re trying to meme? I’m not entirely sure though.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I keep repeating myself because you keep repeating yourself. Think on that.

Also I would assume the majority of players don't come to the forum, so they don't see these "hysterical dramatic posts made up to feed someone else ego" in the first place.

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We think differently always had the notion that the majority of the players would participate or at least read the forums for news that was a thing of their interest.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Given the way they keep typing “my wAaaYyayyY” or whatever, I’m guessing that they’re trying to meme? I’m not entirely sure though.

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No not trying to meme it is just out it sounds.
One player states that the ideal rotation for one job is done by one sequence other states differently in the end the standard ends up to be determined by personal experiences and not by one official SE guide, the only orientation is given by the game is the skills combos and the description in each paragraph and even so players can choose do different rotations with results of similar dps parse for roles such as Bard and Ninja.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

The FFXIV forums are a minority of a minority of the playerbase. Generally the only people here are people who are here to complain, people who like to read the complaints, people who would rather be in-game but can't be, and people who like to argue the complaints, and people who should be doing homework because their assignment is due in 10 minutes. Most players who enjoy the game are actively in the game.

For all intents and purposes, the official forums is just like the reddit or any other micro-community for FFXIV out there, it's just SE made this one.

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Thank you for clarifying.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

We think differently always had the notion that the majority of the players would participate in the forums that was a thing of their interest.

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The FFXIV forums are a minority of a minority of the playerbase. Generally the only people here are people who are here to complain, people who like to read the complaints, people who would rather be in-game but can't be, and people who like to argue the complaints, and people who should be doing homework because their assignment is due in 10 minutes. Most players who enjoy the game are actively in the game.

For all intents and purposes, the official forums is just like the reddit or any other micro-community for FFXIV out there, it's just SE made this one.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I think what Awha is pointing out is, a normal human's base response to someone doing poorly is "They can do better." You're advocating, essentially, to have shut lips because if they're not doing well they could be brain-damaged. Even if that's not what you said, that is what it comes off as to the observer.

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Thanks yeah, that is what I was trying say.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

Wow distorting what I wrote wont help you either again this is getting old I did wrote that the irl reasons that affect one person concentration can be included in a vast list did mention some examples, unfortunately the list extents since we have no way to know to presume it is the "not playing My WaAaYyYy" excuse is as terrible.

Myself have days who am with a percentage of disability also due to external factors and do not take it that heartily to talk about it.

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I get where you are coming from, but once again why should the burden be on everyone else to assume outside factors are the reason they are unable to perform? As someone with a disability that personally is a disgusting notion for me personally. You are right often I do not like to mention what is wrong with me, I keep it to myself, but here is the thing if I want accommodations to be made I mention it, even then I do not expect such accommodations to be made if I cannot perform to the standard desired by the group that simply means that was not the right group for me. I will not take it personally. Sure once ago when I was much younger I would have took it to heart, but with time I have come to terms with the fact simply because I was born a certain way should not automatically grant me a greater degree of privilege.

Expecting accommodations or special treatment to be made based on the fact they assume you need help because of outside factors really only hurts us that suffer from disabilities, since end of the day I know a lot of us just want to be treated fairly, not as a special case.

Sorry double post.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

If you're first starting I'll break my back bending over backwards to teach you the basics. The problem, though, is the people that go past level 70 and still act like they're a starry-eyed level 30 novice, with a fresh jobstone.

Ultimately, if I look at someone in the party and I wish I could just replace them with my chocobo companion at 70 I'd rather just votekick/replace them than deal with their apathy. They're wasted effort by that point, clearly.



The above are considerations I am under no obligation to consider nor care about. They are tangential to the player being able to fill their specified role.

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That was not me now, but then. Most do not "bend over backwards" to be kind to newbies. Let us be honest. Most do not even care if someone is new or not, it is easier for them to berate and belittle than give a kind tip or gentle correction.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I get where you are coming from, but once again why should the burden be on everyone else to assume outside factors are the reason they are unable to perform? As someone with a disability that personally is a disgusting notion for me personally. You are right often I do not like to mention what is wrong with me, I keep it to myself, but here is the thing if I want accommodations to be made I mention it, even then I do not expect such accommodations to be made if I cannot perform to the standard desired by the group that simply means that was not the right group for me. I will not take it personally. Sure once ago when I was much younger I would have took it to heart, but with time I have come to terms with the fact simply because I was born a certain way should not automatically grant me a greater degree of privilege.

Expecting accommodations or special treatment to be made based on the fact they assume you need help because of outside factors really only hurts us that suffer from disabilities, since end of the day I know a lot of us just want to be treated fairly, not as a special case.

Sorry double post.

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Yes stay disgusted promote more hate and take the bicycle of the reasoning if you do not understand until now that I gave examples and among them are others who have nothing to do with disabilities can't do a thing for you.

Sorry but I wont discriminate any other player just because they use a different dps rotation or missed one or other aoe to fulfill your goal either you won't see me in the forums crying like a child because someone still doesn't know the mechanics or force myself to feel utterly upset with players that for some reason could not give their best at the moment they were enjoying the game.

Have a nice we have nothing else to speak with each other.

Disgusted am I in the end of this and by the way take your crappy drama attempt elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

Yes stay disgusted promote more hate and take the bicycle of the reasoning if you do not understand until now that I gave examples and among them are others who have nothing to do with disabilities can't do a thing for you.

Sorry but I wont discriminate any other player just because they use a different dps rotation or missed one or other aoe to fulfill your goal either you won't see me in the forums crying like a child because someone still doesn't know the mechanics or force myself to feel utterly upset with players that for some reason could not give their best at the moment they were enjoying the game.

Have a nice we have nothing else to speak with each other.

Disgusted am I in the end of this and by the way take your crappy drama attempt elsewhere.

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Fair enough, I am sorry for getting heated, I just have personal issues when people try to promote us with disabilities as people that always need to be cuddled and protected.

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Originally Posted by Celestene

That was not me now, but then. Most do not "bend over backwards" to be kind to newbies. Let us be honest. Most do not even care if someone is new or not, it is easier for them to berate and belittle than give a kind tip or gentle correction.

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Let's be really honest, most don't even care enough to berate and belittle. They don't care enough to help someone improve, they don't care enough to yell at them: you have extremes, people who will be aggressive and people who will be helpful, but the vast majority of people are just apathetic.

I may sound like I'm on team kick, but I'm on team "Get this over with so I can move on with my life." If someone apologizes for performance, I'll say "np stuff happens." If someone asks a question about how to improve, my ears will perk up and this fog of sleepy annoyance will fade and I'll be happy to provide as much help as I can. If someone starts actively trolling the party, I'll probably just ignore them too--days was I'd troll back, but even that's kind of lost its fun over the years. Part of it also comes from the fact we've had the same content cycle for the past...six years give-or-take.

Otherwise? I don't really care. Healer not DPSing? Eh. Tank pulling small? Guess I'll just single-target. Co-DPS not AoEing? Eh. Their prerogative.

"Gee Dual you sound like you hate this game"

Nah, I don't hate it. Actually it's probably up there with Devil May Cry and Kingdom Hearts as my absolute most-played games. I love the combat system, and I love the friends I've made in game, I love the story and lore, and I love the challenges Savage and Ultimate can present me with. I'm just jaded after so many years of this same argument in this thread, cycled over and over with nobody ever budging.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

No not trying to meme it is just out it sounds.

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Then type normally. You’ve proven you can type coherently, so don’t type incoherently. It does nothing for your argument—if anything, it hurts it because it makes you look ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

One player states that the ideal rotation for one job is done by one sequence other states differently in the end the standard ends up to be determined by personal experiences and not by one official SE guide, the only orientation is given by the game is the skills combos and the description in each paragraph and even so players can choose do different rotations with results of similar dps parse for roles such as Bard and Ninja.

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The standard in terms of rotation is determined by theorycrafters with math and hours of testing. No, you cannot do a “different” rotation on BRD or NIN and achieve similar results as the optimized rotation, assuming both players are equal in terms of skill.

SE has never determined how we play the game. For a long time, things like rotations have been determined by the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

One player states that the ideal rotation for one job is done by one sequence other states differently in the end the standard ends up to be determined by personal experiences and not by one official SE guide, the only orientation is given by the game is the skills combos and the description in each paragraph and even so players can choose do different rotations with results of similar dps parse for roles such as Bard and Ninja.

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This is pure false information and lying.

Rotations are made by players through countless hours of testing and calculating. All rotations get tested until you arrive at simply the best rotation you have available with the current game mechanics.

You can't just magically do another rotation and get the same result, that is practically impossible. The rotations provided by the people who are actually going through countless hours of calculating and testing are simply the most optimal and best performing rotations.

Edit: Claiming that you can do any rotation and get a similar result compared to the optimal rotations people find through testing and countless hourts of effort, is just insulting to those of us that are actually doing that and constantly trying to improve the best rotation ever so slightly.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Otherwise? I don't really care. Healer not DPSing? Eh. Tank pulling small? Guess I'll just single-target. Co-DPS not AoEing? Eh. Their prerogative.
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That's pretty much where I am at as well. At most, if the group is being friendly/chatty I will tell the tank he can pull more if he likes when I am healing, or if I am not healing and the healer looks bored I will say they can DPS to have something to do. Most times though unless someone asks a question I just worry about myself and let them do as they wish. If it gets bad enough (it rarely does), I will leave myself.

That said, if other groups are more picky... if the majority of the group wants you gone then that is that... it doesn't really matter WHY they want you gone.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It's not that it's acceptable; it's that it's not worth making a fuss over. If people get hit by things, heal them. If people die, solo it yourself. Make up for their shortcomings with your own skill. No need to make a fuss over it; if they want to improve they will and if they want to underperform then, it's whatever if it's not extreme, savage or ultimate.

They aren't wrong about these things. If they want to learn they will go and seek out knowledge. It's their sub!

Never experienced this. If they ask for help, give it politely otherwise leave them be - simple solution I think.

Those MMOs are not very chilled out then. They need to chill out. It's a game that you play for fun in your spare time. Shouldn't take it so seriously, as if said person is a qualified engineer and doing an incompetent job at engineering. It's just a game. You and I may play too much and take it seriously like that but consider that the majority do not. As long as they are having fun getting hit by mechanics always, it's whatever (if it's not extreme, savage or ultimate).

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Its their sub is right but its also the sub of the other people where they are going into dungeons, trials or raids. You don't want to tell us now that one sub is more important than the other 3-23 subs, right?

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Originally Posted by Kalise

The main problem is that the game itself doesn't actually do anything to teach people. Not even simple basics.

Yes, there's the Hall of the Novice, but that's optional. It's sat over in the corner just whimpering and occasionally whispering "Umm... Excuse me but I don't think you're doing that quite correctly..."

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I wouldn't jump too quickly into thinking that's a fix. Ex:My wife has her struggles quite a bit with learning rotations, etc....but hall of the novice? She got through that with flying colors. Further, even in games where this or similar was required, you'd still see plenty of players who passed the 'requirement' but weren't able to properly play their classes (or just didn't care to). (Ex: WoW)

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Originally Posted by Awha

Expecting accommodations or special treatment to be made based on the fact they assume you need help because of outside factors really only hurts us that suffer from disabilities, since end of the day I know a lot of us just want to be treated fairly, not as a special case.

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I have to disagree here.
We have a colorblind person in the raid and when it comes to green vs red we do help out with hints via TS etc.

Yes, many of us that have disabilities are rather proud and want to be treated like normal people but there is a point at which our disability can hamper the groups progress, it is idiotic and arrogant to not want simple special treatments that make everything go more fluently.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The standard in terms of rotation is determined by theorycrafters with math and hours of testing. No, you cannot do a “different” rotation on BRD or NIN and achieve similar results as the optimized rotation, assuming both players are equal in terms of skill.

SE has never determined how we play the game. For a long time, things like rotations have been determined by the playerbase.

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I would prefer that those theorycrafters dealt with more than end-game optimization. What good does the end-game rotation do you at level 43 or level 59, especially since most of those rotations are built on max-level actions and abilities?

I would also prefer that those optimizations were more widely referenced, as a non-optimized search for "monk rotation ffxiv", for example, will give you a lot of up-front results for ARR and HW before you find the current meta.

Also good to see you added "assuming both players are equal in terms of skill" ... since that is generally where things break down.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I have to disagree here.
We have a colorblind person in the raid and when it comes to green vs red we do help out with hints via TS etc.

Yes, many of us that have disabilities are rather proud and want to be treated like normal people but there is a point at which our disability can hamper the groups progress, it is idiotic and arrogant to not want simple special treatments that make everything go more fluently.

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As I mentioned if someone wants help then by all means ask for it, but if it is not brought up how is the group meant to know, I do not know of many with disabilities that do not mention their disabilities yet expect people to know and accommodate them. That is what my statement is in regards to.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I would prefer that those theorycrafters dealt with more than end-game optimization. What good does the end-game rotation do you at level 43 or level 59, especially since most of those rotations are built on max-level actions and abilities?

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When it comes to learning a new class it's essentially up to the person playing to reverse engineer their current rotation during the leveling process or synced content, the breakdown seems to come when people look up a rotation to follow but don't take the time to understand why things are the way they are.

Take something simple like RDM for example. You can look up the openers for level 70 play and execute them but if you try to do them synced to 50 not only do you wind up with a lot of holes but fundamentally the whole thing will fall apart without Manafaction to double your mana to start your melee combo. Going deeper there is no reason to hold Swiftcast for so long since there is no Embolden to use it under for an extra buffed 310 potency spell.

You have to understand all your abilities and how they interact, that's just your job as a player. Reading guides by more skilled players is a great start. Once you have that understanding though you're able to piece together rotations at lower levels, no need to theorycraft them in a serious manner.

I’m just curious, what content are you constantly wiping to and not being able to clear? With the except of running stuff like the 8 man and 24 man raids day one when people are leaning I very rarely see continuous wipes in anything and it’s usually something like an under geared DPS in The Burb that dies to every air that takes up all the healer’s MP. Also I’ve never actually seen someone say “you don’t pay my sub” in a serious sense I’ve only seen it used by people joking.

Also I’ve never been banned or warned by a GM for giving constructive criticism, “you have to Esuna that or the person will die” is different from “LOL why do you suck so much healer how did you get to 70?”

Perhaps if you are just finding yourself frustrated with this game and it’s community a break might do well? Above all else this is a game, if it’s constantly making you upset, frustrated, disgusted and angry you’ll be doing everyone especially yourself a favor by taking a break.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I’m just curious, what content are you constantly wiping to and not being able to clear? With the except of running stuff like the 8 man and 24 man raids day one when people are leaning I very rarely see continuous wipes in anything and it’s usually something like an under geared DPS in The Burb that dies to every air that takes up all the healer’s MP. Also I’ve never actually seen someone say “you don’t pay my sub” in a serious sense I’ve only seen it used by people joking.

Also I’ve never been banned or warned by a GM for giving constructive criticism, “you have to Esuna that or the person will die” is different from “LOL why do you suck so much healer how did you get to 70?”

Perhaps if you are just finding yourself frustrated with this game and it’s community a break might do well? Above all else this is a game, if it’s constantly making you upset, frustrated, disgusted and angry you’ll be doing everyone especially yourself a favor by taking a break.

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I've seen "you don't pay my sub" unironically as well as "you don't know me don't tell me what I'm capable of" when I tried to tell a new healer in a discord I'm a part of that they were in fact capable of dpsing because everyone is and they "just needed to believe in themself" which is... definitively not toxic or rude, my entire message read like a self-help book.

Let's not try to act like our own experience offers anything more than anecdotal evidence as to the state of the game as a whole. Implying that someone who sees bad players saying "you don't pay my sub" is likely earning it by being rude is effectively a victim-blaming mentality which is generally bad.

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Originally Posted by Awha

As I mentioned if someone wants help then by all means ask for it, but if it is not brought up how is the group meant to know, I do not know of many with disabilities that do not mention their disabilities yet expect people to know and accommodate them. That is what my statement is in regards to.

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Exactly.

I, for one, won't assume the person has disabilities or IRL issues right off the bat, unless it's stated by this player beforehand. Some people are quite private with their issues, but you can't blame on the other players if they yell at you for not doing your stuff, since they don't know what you're going through. If I see people underperforming to the point it's detrimental to the group, I'll inquiry first and see what I get... then go from there. As far as I know, the mind reading features are non-existant in MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

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Let's not try to act like our own experience offers anything more than anecdotal evidence as to the state of the game as a whole.

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I mean that’s basically what everyone is doing here on all sides, or was this supposed to be an echo chamber of negative experiences only?

See, there's a difference:

If you're bad as a brd but actually use tactician/Refresh/Peloton AAAAAAND the things brds use even more rarely minnet/paean/pallisade, i will forever love you. I don't care if you're not fmailiar with bard yet, i WILL love you if you are trying to use all you have. Not like i'm the best bard either but i will try to help you with getting a little better performance.

If you're a bard that is busy jumping around and hitting an attack once every 20 seconds because you're busy with said jumping around, talking and dying the whole time, i will tell you to stop doing that and play.

I would protect the first one but not the second one since the first one tries, the second one doesn't.
And i don't think the second one should just get away with being carried like that.

Nobody is talking about skyhigh dps and i doubt all people who don't even try have mental disabilities. EVen if, i'm sure they still don't die to everything and anything. They can still try.

Heck, sometimes i'm the one dying in ghimlyth dark on the final boss even if i can do that dungeon in my sleep. I just bluescreen in my brain and die. And that when i'm on whm. Great. Way to make me feel bad, myself! If that happens, i apologize, say that i derped and all that. Most people do and even if not, i'm not blind and see the derp that ended up in them dying. I will even comment on how unfortunate that was.

Like i said, nobody here is expecting perfection or anything close to that. Oh no, you're not doing perfect damage as brd, you filthyfilthy casual? As if! I'm just usiong brd because they're the dps i'm most familiar with by the way.

I can even give you a closer comparison to what is meant if you still try to make excuses for everybody even if it's pretty much repeating but maybe one day it'll stick:

Imagine. Orbonne.
1 person is busy not playing, keeps talking, keeps dying and also does 0 dps basically. In every fight from 2 up to 5 times per fight. They get scolded for not doing jackshit on the second boss but still don't care to the point that the healer keep prioritizing ANYBODY else before ressing them. Since they'll just die again and won't be missed.

1 Person does perfectly fine. Messes up 1 or 2 mechanics here and there but doesn't die. But at last phase ultima, they get very unlucky and die 2-3 ish times due to ressing very unlucky and the healers not being able to heal them fully because they need to heal the tank first etc etc.

1 person is still pretty newish(or completely new) to the raid and says so(or not sicne you can see it on cutscene viewing). Still tries, still dies here and there, asks how the sniping works, they get told, they go "AAAAAAAAAH". Then they get told how the shields workcorrectly. YOu explain thundergod again, they still die here and there. But they're still more alive than dead and try their best with damage andn ot dying and learn each fight and die less and less as it goes on.

1 Person has the mental disability you keep talking about. Yet they try their best. They may die, they may eat mechanics, they may be good, who knows. But either way, they're trying their best. Maybe goes the same as the new person with explaining.

Which one of them should not just be carried because what is playing this game? Right, the first one. The other 3 did nothing wrong other than mess up a little here and there. Happens to all of us


You can also play a single player game since there you can take your time, fail as often as you want and get stuck on the story since you don't get carried since you still don't want to even try...

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

I would protect the first one but not the second one since the first one tries, the second one doesn't.
And i don't think the second one should just get away with being carried like that.

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Perfectly stated. It's less about good vs bad than it is about trying vs not trying. We aren't all going to be the best <insert whatever> but as long as someone is trying and is open to tips/points (and I mean just that... accepting of help.. not insults) then I have all the patience in the world for them. It's the ones that don't bother because everyone else will do the work for them that I take issue with.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I mean that’s basically what everyone is doing here on all sides, or was this supposed to be an echo chamber of negative experiences only?

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The issue is with the part of my post that you omitted from your quote which reads...

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Implying that someone who sees bad players saying "you don't pay my sub" is likely earning it by being rude is effectively a victim-blaming mentality which is generally bad.

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You're coming into a thread that someone started because they've had a problem and saying "I don't have that problem, seems like it might be your fault" in spite of not only the OP but many others agreeing that this is a real issue. OP has experienced toxicity for having standards that they believe to be reasonable and your response is to imply they must be expressing themselves poorly. That is literally blaming the victim of harrassment for being harassed. It's bad, stop that.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

The issue is with the part of my post that you omitted from your quote which reads...



You're coming into a thread that someone started because they've had a problem and saying "I don't have that problem, seems like it might be your fault" in spite of not only the OP but many others agreeing that this is a real issue. OP has experienced toxicity for having standards that they believe to be reasonable and your response is to imply they must be expressing themselves poorly. That is literally blaming the victim of harrassment for being harassed. It's bad, stop that.

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I don’t see where the OP was a victim or harassed so I was blaming no victim because there wasn’t one... unless “you don’t pay my sub” (while yes if not said in jest is super immature) somehow constitutes as harassment which seems incredibly bizarre to me, and not just that it belittles people who are actual victims of true harassment in this game. What I do see is massive amounts of negativity and hyperbole

I blame level boost potions. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Veila

I blame level boost potions. Lol.

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I understand SE makes money of it, but I legit think Level Boosting Potions, and Story Skips shouldn't be offered. Also think PotD/HoH shouldn't give EXP.

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Originally Posted by Veila

I blame level boost potions. Lol.

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I'd love to blame something, but reality is this issue existed long before boosts (or potd) and I've personally not noticed a marked increase. Lazy players will be lazy regardless.

Now that I’ve actually seen the OPs history I see multiple posts with them calling people bad and telling them to u ironically “got gud” going off their post history I seriously doubt they’ve been giving innocent constructive criticism in game and is actually the aggressor in the so called toxic behavior they were taking about.