Gender Locks Have Revealed the Worst in Players.

New generation entitlement.

If they can't have it threaten, I said this before its the wrong way to go.

Then if a person tells them to calm down they attack players, then SE wants to make rules revolving around them which I say is the wrong thing to do, which quoted they said they read social media and news and other stuff and see things changing no it only changes when you bend to their will and that's something I won't do.

they say don't bully anyone then attack, then turn around and bully, don't get your way threaten then try to bend them to their will to force them to do stuff its wrong of course I'll get someone saying I am the bad person here for calling that out but I know better.

Best thing to do is let SE do their job I never had a issue with how they done stuff from FF1-15 why even try to act like I am entitled to anything, they've done good so far and successful why try to change things?

You pay sub so does everyone else never got like this in FFXI why is it happening here.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

I would also not tell women from Muslim nations that they have to wear them, either. One thing people need to understand is that societal norms can be bad.

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Of course you wouldn't. That's the whole point. Societal norms can be bad, but nobody has the right to tell another culture, let alone a person, what they should be comfortable with. Those developers are allowed to be uncomfortable if it makes them uncomfortable. They passed it off to someone that handled the issue though. Maybe the women didn't feel completely comfortable with it either. But it's not on us to judge any of them for it, nor should they be vilified for how they feel.

And I'm not saying you did either, because I honestly haven't read all of your posts. Just responded to the ones you responded to. But I'm seeing some pretty nasty stuff being said about not just SE, but the individuals in the company. That's simply not right. If this issue is going to be addressed, it will never be addressed properly in this tone. It's spiteful to a company that has tried to be accommodating.

I give SE the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they need time to address the gender thing. Maybe they need to change the lore, or even create new lore. We have an entirely different world to go to, where the lore might be completely different. And maybe that's how we "unlock" them.

Either way, I'll sit back and see what happens. But if nothing changes, then I'll accept that's what the devs wishes were for this game. It is, after all, their project. We pay to play their game, not to have ultimate say in what they do. Feedback and constructive criticism is one thing, but dictating what they do is absolutely the wrong approach.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

Of course you wouldn't. That's the whole point. Societal norms can be bad, but nobody has the right to tell another culture, let alone a person, what they should be comfortable with. Those developers are allowed to be uncomfortable if it makes them uncomfortable. They passed it off to someone that handled the issue though. Maybe the women didn't feel completely comfortable with it either. But it's not on us to judge any of them for it, nor should they be vilified for how they feel.

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I'm going to strongly disagree and say that you can absolutely judge people for how they feel, especially when they go out of their way to make it known. You're saying that it's okay for people to have discriminatory views and that they shouldn't be judged for it? Because I can think of several examples where this doesn't hold up at all.

Maybe you feel like in this specific instance it's not something they should be judged for, but in that case we'd again have to disagree. Should they not expect criticism based on the views and values of the culture to which they are marketing and selling their product?

No, I haven't said anything particularly nasty about them. I think FFXIV's team is talented and has delivered fantastic content. It's not like I think they should lose their jobs. I'm just calling a spade a spade. The hypermasculine/hyperfeminine genderlocked races, the bunny outfit fiasco, glamour disparity, and even the extreme sexual dimorphism of the Au Ra. The dev team has a trend of conforming to ideals which find their basis in casual, societal sexism.

And you know what? Some people are still okay with what they've given us. That's fine! But others feels like they can and should do better. This is also fine! For me it's a "I love what you do, but this is problematic so let's talk about it" kind of situation.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

Either way, I'll sit back and see what happens. But if nothing changes, then I'll accept that's what the devs wishes were for this game. It is, after all, their project. We pay to play their game, not to have ultimate say in what they do. Feedback and constructive criticism is one thing, but dictating what they do is absolutely the wrong approach.

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Thing is, we don't have the power to dictate what they do. The ball is completely in their court and they are free to do as they please while we tell them how we feel about it.

Welp, props to the west for screaming and throwing a tantrum so loud, it got Yoshi's attention. Yes, I'm calling it a tantrum because that's exactly how many players acted. I was even told by a player in game to walk in a lake when going "Yeah bara cat bois!" All in all, it's amazing, and kind of embarrassing. Because imagine if people were this vocal, but minus the poop flinging.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/sq.../1100-6465810/

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Originally Posted by Gula

Welp, props to the west for screaming and throwing a tantrum so loud, it got Yoshi's attention. Yes, I'm calling it a tantrum because that's exactly how many players acted. I was even told by a player in game to walk in a lake when going "Yeah bara cat bois!" All in all, it's amazing, and kind of embarrassing. Because imagine if people were this vocal, but minus the poop flinging.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/sq.../1100-6465810/

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Yea it's quite upsetting how outrage culture and social justice is leaking into video games; the places we go to escape and just have fun. The western players are some of the most cringe, entitled, and self-indulgent people I've ever seen.

With that said, I'm surprised and I find it odd that Yoshi-P acknowledges the tantrum of "no bunboy fetish" in a matter of days after its announced. Yet, the months of overwhelming support of a non-limited Blue Mage job goes unnoticed.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

You're saying that it's okay for people to have discriminatory views and that they shouldn't be judged for it? Because I can think of several examples where this doesn't hold up at all.

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I'm saying it's okay for people to have different points of view, and I can think of several examples where someone would be justified feeling the way they do. It's easy to say someone is sexist, homophobic, racist, etc. The harder part is understanding why you might perceive them that way, or why they might very well be that way. The mind is a fascinating thing. Just think of someone suffering from abuse, and then realize why they don't trust the opposite sex. It's just as easy to see societal pressures sway someone's thinking as well in this fashion.

Maybe they didn't feel comfortable making female clothing on male characters, because it's not something they are familiar with. I personally would be uncomfortable programming a jockstrap for instance. Not because I'm sexist, but because I've never worn one. You can say they make skimpy clothing all the time, but it's not all overtly feminine on men. We'd never know any of that though, because nobody asked each individual male developer what they were thinking during the process.

Instead, they all get slapped with a generalized label of being sexist. Every single last one of them, by you and others. Maybe that had nothing to do with it at all. There are many reasons someone could feel uncomfortable in that situation. And the issue did get resolved by the company, so you can't label the company as sexist. They pushed until they got someone on it. Honestly that situation is a moot point now, because it was handled.

Is any of it wrong? That depends on who you ask. True tolerance is understanding the differences that make each individual unique. You shouldn't rush to judgment of one another, nor slap a label on them before you truly know the individual. And even then, you should respect their human right to have their own opinions and world view. This has become a new thing in Western society, to call someone a racist when they disagree with a certain politician's policies, for instance. Or to call someone a sexist because they hired a man instead of a woman. It doesn't have to be based on anything factual other than the pure baseline for those definitions.

Calling a spade a spade, for instance, is a very intolerant thing to do. It's closely synonymous with judging a book by the cover. It's rude, impolite, and usually does not take into consideration anyone's personal feelings, past, or views. Basing an entire "sexist" claim on one individual instance, is quite frankly intolerant. But, I don't want to call a spade a spade here, so I'm going to assume you have a lot more evidence to back up your claim of persistent sexism by these developers.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

Should they not expect criticism based on the views and values of the culture to which they are marketing and selling their product?

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No, I'm not saying they shouldn't expect criticism, nor feedback. I'm saying there is a more productive, less emotional way to do it. Coming at them in a thread-opening post screaming "homophobes" or "sexists" doesn't help anything. Neither does immediately calling out anyone who might disagree as "white knights." This is when most people stop listening and grab the popcorn. Why? Because it's so silly to even contemplate the company is either. Individuals might have their own views inside the company, but in whole, they have gone against their societal norms many times to cater just to players of this game.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

The dev team has a trend of conforming to ideals which find their basis in casual, societal sexism.

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And this is also fine. A Japanese company made a game based on many cultures, with their cultural fundamentals, and have tried to make it work globally. That is very hard to do, if you ask me. They can't simply cater to Japanese culture, and they can't simply cater to Western culture. They have to figure out ways constantly to work with both, not to mention draw on historical cultures for inspiration.

Can we help them understand Western culture more? Sure. But not screaming "sexist" at them every time they ask (or don't ask) for feedback. I'm sure they think we're a bunch of loudmouth idiots by now, and I would have to agree. We've done nothing as a whole to disprove that.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

And you know what? Some people are still okay with what they've given us. That's fine! But others feels like they can and should do better. This is also fine! For me it's a "I love what you do, but this is problematic so let's talk about it" kind of situation.

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And again, nothing wrong with that. However, you're not saying what you quote there, when you come out holding the "sexist" card. That actually serves to shutdown discourse when you come in pre-judgmental. You're saying your mind is already made up in the matter, so what is there to discuss? Why should the other side feel obligated? They have to come in battle-ready with evidence to prove they're not sexist now, before they can even discuss the next topic.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

Thing is, we don't have the power to dictate what they do. The ball is completely in their court and they are free to do as they please while we tell them how we feel about it.

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And once again, more power to you, or anyone telling SE how they feel. But there is a right way, and a wrong way to do it. Not saying there won't be some emotion. Not saying we won't misstep or say something wrong. We're all human, and that's how we learn and grow. Just at least show an inkling of civility. We need to strive to work with each other better, and not be so blinded by our brash sentiments. No matter how we feel on the inside. Like another thread said: Step back and breathe.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

Yea it's quite upsetting how outrage culture and social justice is leaking into video games; the places we go to escape and just have fun. The western players are some of the most cringe, entitled, and self-indulgent people I've ever seen.

With that said, I'm surprised and I find it odd that Yoshi-P acknowledges the tantrum of "no bunboy fetish" in a matter of days after its announced. Yet, the months of overwhelming support of a non-limited Blue Mage job goes unnoticed.

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I definitely agree with your first comment. I think with the BLU pushback, that's on a very different level. They are now getting called sexist, homophobic, and a plethora of other things.

I do also feel a bit for Yoshi. People keep referring his comment where he said it would be "weird" if male Viera were a thing. Unless I'm missing a full conversation, that was just a single one-off remark and wasn't elaborated on in any way, yet people are analyzing the crap out of it and pulling the absolute worst assumptions. The comment was years ago, and in his mind he very well could have just been thinking "male are just about non-existent in XII, that would be weird if we had them", and now it's being turned into he's homophobic, and thinks any part of the LBGT community is wrong.

I know from first hand experience how these forums can twist an incredibly innocent comment into something horrible. While none of us know how he meant that comment, I would give him the benefit of the doubt and I personally feel it was rather harmless. We already have the option to make rather effeminate males in this game, I don't think he'd be shying away from male Viera for that reason.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

I'm saying it's okay for people to have different points of view, and I can think of several examples where someone would be justified feeling the way they do. [...] Just think of someone suffering from abuse, and then realize why they don't trust the opposite sex.

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If a new person joins the team I lead at my workplace and confides that they're afraid of all black men because they grew up in a bad urban neighborhood where crime was high, I'm going to tell them that I'm sorry for their experiences but they're going to have to make sure they don't let their bias, no matter the reason for it, get in the way of doing their job properly and treating everyone equally regardless of skin color. To do otherwise would be racism.

We are adults that work through our struggles rather than use our negative experiences as an excuse to be unfair to others.

This is a non-negotiable position.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

However, you're not saying what you quote there, when you come out holding the "sexist" card. That actually serves to shutdown discourse when you come in pre-judgmental.

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This is not a "card" and is not a buzzword used to artificially inflate the value of my argument. This was not a sudden judgment made just because of male Viera. It has been the topic of discussion in the past. It may not have been important to you, so maybe you weren't aware, but we have talked about these ideas before with regard to unnecessarily genderlocked clothing, the bunny outfit in particular, the dimorphism of the Au Ra, and even the genderlocked races back in 1.0. This has just been the most egregious offense to date, especially because we thought we'd moved past this offense in particular.

I get it, it's not a pleasant thing to be called. However, it's also not a pleasant thing to be on the receiving end of.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

And once again, more power to you, or anyone telling SE how they feel. But there is a right way, and a wrong way to do it. Not saying their won't be some emotion. Not saying we won't misstep or say something wrong. We're all human, and that's how we learn and grow. Just at least show an inkling of civility. We need to strive to work with each other better, and not be so blinded by our brash sentiments. No matter how we feel on the inside. Like another thread said: Step back and breathe.

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And again, I appreciate the respectful responses but we will disagree. My criticism is not brash or blind. They are assertive without being aggressive and are, as of yet, undisputed. At best you have only given reasons for sexist societal conformity and explained that I am supposed to be understanding.

Which, to be fair, I am. I understand why they did it. It just needs to change. They need to address their internal values or, at the very least, recognize the culture to which they are marketing and adjust.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

Yea it's quite upsetting how outrage culture and social justice is leaking into video games; the places we go to escape and just have fun. The western players are some of the most cringe, entitled, and self-indulgent people I've ever seen.

With that said, I'm surprised and I find it odd that Yoshi-P acknowledges the tantrum of "no bunboy fetish" in a matter of days after its announced. Yet, the months of overwhelming support of a non-limited Blue Mage job goes unnoticed.

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As upset as I am that BLU hasn't been acknowledged, you've got to admit that the viera backlash has been MUCH bigger. The two main BLU threads had about 200 likes each, whereas the viera one has nearly 800

Edit: 850 and climbing

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

It just needs to change. They need to address their internal values or, at the very least, recognize the culture to which they are marketing and adjust.

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Not to be offensive, but I'm just wondering why Japanese need to be the ones to change or adjust their values? We do recognize the culture the game is marketed to, and a very large portion of that market is Asian markets. I know myself and other Japanese, as well as our friends in Korea, Vietnam, and China, share most of the same cultural and societal taboos and norms. So can you explain to me what is the NA culture and values you'd like the Japanese SE team to adjust to? Is this and the other threads wanting gender-neutral or such races and getting so upset about not being as progressive as the NA and USA are indicative of how those cultures think as a whole? In essence, which 'culture' is it that you speak of? The NA/US/EU culture, or the culture as you wish it to be? Because it seems to me, as a kinda outsider, that the responses for and against all of those ideals and such makes it seem like there is no agreed upon 'culture' since everyone is fighting over whether they agree or not even within the NA community itself.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I definitely agree with your first comment. I think with the BLU pushback, that's on a very different level. They are now getting called sexist, homophobic, and a plethora of other things.

I do also feel a bit for Yoshi. People keep referring his comment where he said it would be "weird" if male Viera were a thing. Unless I'm missing a full conversation, that was just a single one-off remark and wasn't elaborated on in any way, yet people are analyzing the crap out of it and pulling the absolute worst assumptions. The comment was years ago, and in his mind he very well could have just been thinking "male are just about non-existent in XII, that would be weird if we had them", and now it's being turned into he's homophobic, and thinks any part of the LBGT community is wrong.

I know from first hand experience how these forums can twist an incredibly innocent comment into something horrible. While none of us know how he meant that comment, I would give him the benefit of the doubt and I personally feel it was rather harmless. We already have the option to make rather effeminate males in this game, I don't think he'd be shying away from male Viera for that reason.

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I definitely feel for him and his team. My point about the BLU pushback is that it was relatively civil. There were heated debates as always, but no crazy insults were thrown at Yoshi and team. The result? No response. Now we have this gender lock catastrophe, outrageous insults were pushed on Yoshi. The result? Immediate response. Will the community now learn that insulting the FFXIV team (as well as other players) with baseless claims the best course of action in order to have your voice heard so swiftly? It appears that way.

Nevertheless, FFXIV has always been far from racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. There are women and men leading resistances against armies. Both genders are leaders of nations. There are feminine men like Alphinaud, and masculine men like Raubahn. It's the same with women characters. For those that believe that gender roles are important, there is a bit of that as well. But no, the absence of a gender from a race usurps all, lol.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

With that said, I'm surprised and I find it odd that Yoshi-P acknowledges the tantrum of "no bunboy fetish" in a matter of days after its announced. Yet, the months of overwhelming support of a non-limited Blue Mage job goes unnoticed.

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The Viera "issue" is easily fixable and that's why it was acknowledged.
And sadly since everytime they say they can't do something the answer is a tatrum of "I don't care you lazy do it anyway" he probably decided to not acknowledge it.

I find it sad that some people act like spoiled kids every time they don't get what they want from the devs.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

I definitely feel for him and his team. My point about the BLU pushback is that it was relatively civil. There were heated debates as always, but no crazy insults were thrown at Yoshi and team. The result? No response. Now we have this gender lock catastrophe, outrageous insults were pushed on Yoshi. The result? Immediate response. Will the community now learn that insulting the FFXIV team (as well as other players) with baseless claims the best course of action in order to have your voice heard so swiftly? It appears that way.

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I hope/think it's because that they're under serious crunch right now so addressing blue when they've got so much to do isn't high on the list, there is /a lot/ of concern/desires here (blue mage) but it's not a true dumpster fire lol. Also solving the gender issue is probably more straight forward than figuring out how to go about an entire job, so again "we don't have time to address that right now".

If it's true they only responded to viera because of outrage, and they have no intention to respond to blue or recognize concerns brought up (without outrage), then they'll have seriously damaging feedback loop if they keep that style.

However, I do not feel SE gave into outrage or had begged for forgiveness which is the first right step into not supporting outrage culture - so good job so far, but definitely hope they can prefer one style of upset nature than another lol. You can see companies who kneel to outrage only get beaten down again more violently later because in essence they've taught and encouraged people that it's the right way to respond. Also strangely you can notice the most extremely loud are usually not even that invested so if you go to satisfy the extreme it's seemingly not even targeting actual players (you don't poop where you eat, at least normal people lol).

There is of course a huge difference from "I'm very upset and sad about this" and "you're a bleep bleep bleep and I hope you bleep, and lose your job" - being negative is not a sign of extremism even if someone who loved the content/decision finds it annoying (people who have been upset but reasonable are worth SE's time to be heard, imo - also imo I'd love to see them unlocked too so I sincerely hope they get what they want).

I don't think it's a sign that blue mage threads need to become more extreme otherwise that SE has no intention of addressing/recognizing/considering what happened, and I think mostly it's just not the right time. In my experience having been on the forums for a while and asking for a lot of stuff (XD lol), either I occasionally accidentally ask what Japanese forums are asking for, or things /do/ get reported to them and it just takes time (also don't expect your exact desire, but it does seem to me that they are aware/take into account people's desires).

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Not to be offensive, but I'm just wondering why Japanese need to be the ones to change or adjust their values? We do recognize the culture the game is marketed to, and a very large portion of that market is Asian markets. I know myself and other Japanese, as well as our friends in Korea, Vietnam, and China, share most of the same cultural and societal taboos and norms. So can you explain to me what is the NA culture and values you'd like the Japanese SE team to adjust to? Is this and the other threads wanting gender-neutral or such races and getting so upset about not being as progressive as the NA and USA are indicative of how those cultures think as a whole? In essence, which 'culture' is it that you speak of? The NA/US/EU culture, or the culture as you wish it to be? Because it seems to me, as a kinda outsider, that the responses for and against all of those ideals and such makes it seem like there is no agreed upon 'culture' since everyone is fighting over whether they agree or not even within the NA community itself.

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Hi. You've not been offensive and I hope that I won't be as well. The cultural idea that I'm referring to is one of gender parity. Not just among the presence of genders, but also the presentation. It's a subject that, especially as of recent years, has been prevalent in western and especially American culture. As with most things there is no universal agreement, but it has been a heavily influental element of the culture for some years now.

Generally speaking, with the US being a very diverse nation, the inclusion of representation (including that of gender equality) in various forms of media has been on a rise and lack of diversity (when otherwise appropriate) is heavily criticized. Of course, there are people who resent these themes and feel that they are unnecessary. However, and as an example, recent blockbuster movies such as Captain Marvel and Black Panther have championed female and black leads, respectively, and to utterly groundbreaking success despite these criticisms and claims that they would fail.

It's a nuanced discussion, but it is probably the most prevalent discussion we have as a culture. Both of the above movies that I mentioned were hot subjects of debate. It's impossible to miss.

So when I refer to this as being part of the culture, I don't mean "everyone in this culture agrees with me". What I mean is "you can absolutely expect heavy criticism if you market discriminatory views within this culture."

And honestly, equality has shown time and time again to be far more appreciated than not despite arguments to the contrary. Such as with the two examples provided above.

Erm... Captain Marvel isn't meeting Marvel's expectations fyi. Also you seem to forget how bad Ghostbuster 2016 bombed. Diversity is fine yes, but forcing it down our throats isn't.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Erm... Captain Marvel isn't meeting Marvel's expectations fyi.

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Did you know: "Captain Marvel" is the sixth-biggest worldwide film opening since 2002

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Top 5 or failure?

Compared to financial expectations, it is not reaching it's own goal. It might be doing well as a movie but as a Marvel movie it is disappointing.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Compared to financial expectations, it is not reaching it's own goal. It might be doing well as a movie but as a Marvel movie it is disappointing.

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2nd biggest Marvel opening of all time is disappointing?

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Erm... Captain Marvel isn't meeting Marvel's expectations fyi. Also you seem to forget how bad Ghostbuster 2016 bombed. Diversity is fine yes, but forcing it down our throats isn't.

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Seconded. Many are tired of the aggressive political agenda being pushed at us in Western media at the moment. It was refreshing to have a place where the dumpster fire hadn't reached yet.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Erm... Captain Marvel isn't meeting Marvel's expectations fyi. Also you seem to forget how bad Ghostbuster 2016 bombed. Diversity is fine yes, but forcing it down our throats isn't.

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I am really not the least bit interested in turning this into a discussion about Marvel, but Captain Marvel just became the 10th biggest comic book movie release of all time, of which there are many and not all are even MCU. I don't know or care what their expectations are, or how we think we know what those expectations were. The movie is a success all the same and among the top bestselling MCU movies, beating both Ragnarok and Homecoming. We don't call those movies failures.

I'd agree that diversity being forced when it doesn't make sense is detrimental, but there's nothing wrong with a movie made specifically with a female lead in mind for a female superhero.

In any case, this is ultimately a conversation about gender parity in FFXIV and not forced diversity.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

I am really not the least bit interested in turning this into a discussion about Marvel, but Captain Marvel just became the 10th biggest comic book movie release of all time, of which there are many and not all are even MCU. I don't know or care what their expectations are, or how we think we know what those expectations were. The movie is a success all the same and among the top bestselling MCU movies, beating both Ragnarok and Homecoming. We don't call those movies failures.

I'd agree that diversity being forced when it doesn't make sense is detrimental, but there's nothing wrong with a movie made specifically with a female lead in mind for a female superhero.

In any case, this is ultimately a conversation about gender parity in FFXIV and not forced diversity.

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With the current approach in the west they are one and the same. It fosters resentment.

As for myself... you do you. But don't expect me to "agree" with what you are doing. I'll simply tolerate it so long as it does not affect me directly.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

With the current approach in the west they are one and the same. It fosters resentment.

As for myself... you do you. But don't expect me to "agree" with what you are doing. I'll simply tolerate it so long as it does not affect me directly.

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I don't need or expect you to agree with anything and it's not my goal to change your mind. The only time we'd have a problem is if you were actively campaigning against an inclusion that is, in all honesty, entirely fair.

If you're willing to tolerate the fair acceptance of others even if you don't like it and without needing to tell us that you don't like it all the time, then we can peacefully coexist.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

With that said, I'm surprised and I find it odd that Yoshi-P acknowledges the tantrum of "no bunboy fetish" in a matter of days after its announced. Yet, the months of overwhelming support of a non-limited Blue Mage job goes unnoticed.

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Not really surprising if you consider how much push both have recieved in a short amount of time. While the backlash on BLU was visible to an extent, the overall media reaction was too little too late as the class wasn’t released at the time of announcement while the Official Forums have yet to show the growth Male Viera did with posts really just floating around 200-300 likes compared to the Male Viera bordering nearly 1000 in the span of a few days.

Simply put the game has essentially created a community and design layout in which the majority find cosmetic choices to be more important, a fault that is heavily exaggerated by iLvl.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

2nd biggest Marvel opening of all time is disappointing?

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How daft are you? It was set by Marvel to be their biggest movie to date. It did not meet that expectiong so AS A MARVEL MOVIE, yes. Disappointing.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

I don't need or expect you to agree with anything and it's not my goal to change your mind. The only time we'd have a problem is if you were actively campaigning against an inclusion that is, in all honesty, entirely fair.

If you're willing to tolerate the fair acceptance of others even if you don't like it and without needing to tell us that you don't like it all the time, then we can peacefully coexist.

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Which is all I think either side should expect. The resentment bit comes in due to a lot of political pressure to "accept" the movement and their values. It comes across as a push to convert people in a religious fashion. I'm all for spreading the idea of tolerance though.

It seems as though the majority of the West have forgotten how to disagree yet still coexist.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

How daft are you? It was set by Marvel to be their biggest movie to date. It did not meet that expectiong so AS A MARVEL MOVIE, yes. Disappointing.

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says who? there's no logical behind that. Capt America: Civil War, and all the Avengers movies all have awesome ensemble casts that no standalone movie should hope to match.

Black Panther was an outlier phenomenon. Marvel did not declare that if Captain Marvel wasn't a statistical anomaly it would be failure, that's insane. there is no mandate that it has to be the greatest or it's a failure, who fed you that?

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

says who? there's no logical behind that. Capt America: Civil War, and all the Avengers movies all have awesome ensemble casts that no standalone movie should hope to match.

Black Panther was an outlier phenomenon. Marvel did not declare that if Captain Marvel wasn't a statistical anomaly it would be failure, that's insane. there is no mandate that it has to be the greatest or it's a failure, who fed you that?

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I'm not saying Captain Marvel is a failure either. I am just saying it did not meet Marvel's own financial expectation. They expected it to smash records. Failing to do so doesn't make it a bad movie. It's just saying that Marvel pushed something expecting a reception they didn't get. The reason are numerous and probably not fit for discussion here but one of them would probably be shoehorning an entirely new hero into a story as a savior role.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

How daft are you? It was set by Marvel to be their biggest movie to date. It did not meet that expectiong so AS A MARVEL MOVIE, yes. Disappointing.

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it actually met expectations as a marvel movie. its going to join the billion dollar club. You don't have to like it, but it was successful. Things dont have to appeal to every person, or to you specifically to be successful

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

I am just saying it did not meet Marvel's own financial expectation. They expected it to smash records.

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proof? like you actually have Disney's earnings estimates and reports on this or something?

and it did smash records. it passed Wonder Woman's total box office in 3 weeks.

Wow, this subject has made me come out of hiding because the fact that this is controversial is beyond silly. Maybe it's because of my age, or maybe it's because I'm seeing the ill effects of people being over sensitive of the matter. Things that I don't understand go as following, why, are people so offended by gender locked races? I've read the arguments, and as old school gamer who's been playing MMOs for 13 years, it bothers me that what I'm reading getting is people being politically butt hurt over the matter. As a FC member pointed out to me in discord, it's "I want to be able to portray my gender in game and I hate them for taking that from me." HOW!?

Playing MMOs are about escaping real live and enjoying the worlds and scenarios crafted by developers of these games. I've personally flipped between different races and genders over the course of playing FFXIV. Without injecting identity politics into the game, what is the real reason any of you are upset about? You don't have to play any of the races if you don't want to. You aren't forced to use a fantasia to play with them.

Personally, I am offended that I'm seeing why Japanese developers are either censoring/changing certain content in their games for western markets out of fear of offending a minority of entitled player base. Or worse, not releasing their games at all in the west because of this toxic culture that is clearly being exhibited by people feeling so personally attacked that they didn't get what they want in a game that they are so foolish to cancel their pre-orders and subscriptions over a purely cosmetic choice.

There are larger things to be concerned about in not just FFXIV, such as the lack of a new healer coming to the expansion and possible fixes to re-balance the current healers so the next will have a place in the game.

Edit in: Final thoughts.... "It's a f'ing game! Calm down!"

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Originally Posted by Blessedbythesun

Wow, this subject has made me come out of hiding because the fact that this is controversial is beyond silly. Maybe it's because of my age, or maybe it's because I'm seeing the ill effects of people being over sensitive of the matter. Things that I don't understand go as following, why, are people so offended by gender locked races? I've read the arguments, and as old school gamer who's been playing MMOs for 13 years, it bothers me that what I'm reading getting is people being politically butt hurt over the matter. As a FC member pointed out to me in discord, it's "I want to be able to portray my gender in game and I hate them for taking that from me." HOW!?

Playing MMOs are about escaping real live and enjoying the worlds and scenarios crafted by developers of these games. I've personally flipped between different races and genders over the course of playing FFXIV. Without injecting identity politics into the game, what is the real reason any of you are upset about? You don't have to play any of the races if you don't want to. You aren't forced to use a fantasia to play with them.

Personally, I am offended that I'm seeing why Japanese developers are either censoring/changing certain content in their games for western markets out of fear of offending a minority of entitled player base. Or worse, not releasing their games at all in the west because of this toxic culture that is clearly being exhibited by people feeling so personally attacked that they didn't get what they want in a game that they are so foolish to cancel their pre-orders and subscriptions over a purely cosmetic choice.

There are larger things to be concerned about in not just FFXIV, such as the lack of a new healer coming to the expansion and possible fixes to re-balance the current healers so the next will have a place in the game.

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Not everyone is making it into something political though. Some people just don't like the genderlocks out of principle. FF XIV is a special case in that we literally had genderlocked races starting out and Yoshi went out of his way to undo them. Going back to them now is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way, especially when you factor in how popular a race Viera is.


If you read through the largest Viera/Hrothgar threads most people there are politely requesting the other gender options be added. The people trying to make it out to be a personal slight to them or their identity are the outliers really.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

I'm not saying Captain Marvel is a failure either. I am just saying it did not meet Marvel's own financial expectation. They expected it to smash records. Failing to do so doesn't make it a bad movie. It's just saying that Marvel pushed something expecting a reception they didn't get. The reason are numerous and probably not fit for discussion here but one of them would probably be shoehorning an entirely new hero into a story as a savior role.

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Captain Marvel is breaking some records. Or are you saying Marvel expected Captain Marvel ( A brand new solo movie character) to meet or beat Avengers money? To smash Avengers records?

Except, they didn't 'go out of their way' to genderlock these new races.


They, rather, went out of their way to make -two- new races.

Please guys, let's not forget that two new races isn't just about the graphics (even though that is essentially what people are clamoring over). It's 4 new lore rules (because two clans per race), vastly different animation sets for walking, running, emoting and fighting, gear measurements, customization options, voices, etc.

Their work load would, in fact, have been less if they went for male viera - which I understand might make the people that were eager to play male rabbit-man a bit upset. But you're not the only ones who exist in the world, don't forget the big lupin thread that also co-existed with the viera thread, which also desperately wanted a beastial race.


They tried to do the best they could with what they had, with how long they had. Look through the interviews, understand that this wasn't a "we don't want male-this/female-that" race, but rather an attempt at trying to please both crowds.

It obviously didn't leave everyone satisfied, but like, come on. Dude. For real?

Idk man. I wanted both Viera and something beastly like Hrothgar, which we ended up getting. Not fully fleshed out on either end, as people expected, but it's certainly better than the nothing we had before.
And on that note, I know I wouldn't be throwing a tantrum if we got no new race this expansion. I'd be disappointed for sure, but I like to think I wouldn't start calling the devs of sexists (or racists) over it.

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Originally Posted by Lacan

Not everyone is making it into something political though. Some people just don't like the genderlocks out of principle. FF XIV is a special case in that we literally had genderlocked races starting out and Yoshi went out of his way to undo them. Going back to them now is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way, especially when you factor in how popular a race Viera is.


If you read through the largest Viera/Hrothgar threads most people there are politely requesting the other gender options be added. The people trying to make it out to be a personal slight to them or their identity are the outliers really.

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I don't see how it's sincerely just the principle of the matter.

Is it because they feel like the choice to play male or female versions of the races has been taken away from them, despite... getting a choice of something? I admit that this is my first time coming back to these forums in like.... 4 years or so so I haven't read those other threads. However, those outliers are being the loudest. Those threatening to cancel their subscriptions over this and overall throwing a fit is what I'm seeing from other outlets. Counter arguments to those that are find with SE's design choices are rooting back to culture differences, near demanding to adhere to "equality" that the west champions, and others rooted in gender politics because male viera weren't confirmed to be added. (Let's be honest, the amount of people who are disappointed about no male viera don't care to much about female Hrothgar. The population numbers of female Roe's is more than enough evidence.)

I get the disappointment, and I do not wish to insult, demean, or harass anyone who supports having both male and female options. Likewise, I condemn those that are feeding the flame.

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Originally Posted by Blessedbythesun

Personally, I am offended that I'm seeing why Japanese developers are either censoring/changing certain content in their games for western markets out of fear of offending a minority of entitled player base. Or worse, not releasing their games at all in the west because of this toxic culture that is clearly being exhibited by people feeling so personally attacked that they didn't get what they want in a game that they are so foolish to cancel their pre-orders and subscriptions over a purely cosmetic choice.

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That's my biggest worry about all this mess is that instead of getting anything new they just opt to give us nothing. Like in WoW in the very beginning they had bikini plate such a stink was made about it by the vocal minority and Nanny police that they never made it again and now all armor in WoW is the same tired jumpsuits.

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Originally Posted by Blessedbythesun

I don't see how it's sincerely just the principle of the matter.

Is it because they feel like the choice to play male or female versions of the races has been taken away from them, despite... getting a choice of something? I admit that this is my first time coming back to these forums in like.... 4 years or so so I haven't read those other threads. However, those outliers are being the loudest. Those threatening to cancel their subscriptions over this and overall throwing a fit is what I'm seeing from other outlets. Counter arguments to those that are find with SE's design choices are rooting back to culture differences, near demanding to adhere to "equality" that the west champions, and others rooted in gender politics because male viera weren't confirmed to be added. (Let's be honest, the amount of people who are disappointed about no male viera don't care to much about female Hrothgar. The population numbers of female Roe's is more than enough evidence.)

I get the disappointment, and I do not wish to insult, demean, or harass anyone who supports having both male and female options. Likewise, I condemn those that are feeding the flame.

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Actually, I'm not too sure about that. The thread asking for female Hrothgar is at over 1000 likes now. Isn't as much as the thread requesting male Viera, but that is still a lot. Considering we know female ronso are a thing just from FFX, it makes the decision to genderlock them even stranger.

I don't see how asking for male Viera and female Hrothgar is inherently any more political/cultural than asking for male Miqote and female Roegadyn was.

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Originally Posted by Lacan

especially when you factor in how popular a race Viera is.

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A popularity 100% earned from being scantily clad bunny girls. Which is exactly what we received, with apparently additionnal cosmetic choices to design one's absolute fetish.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

A popularity 100% earned from being scantily clad bunny girls. Which is exactly what we received, with apparently additionnal cosmetic choices to design one's absolute fetish.

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I'd disagree with that. If the only reason Viera are so popular is because they're scantily clad bunny girls, then why do the girls and the gays like them so much too? :v Pretty much everyone, male, female, gay, straight, bi, whatever love Viera. I think it is the culture surrounding them that so many people like. They're this spiritual tribe that is attuned to the voice of the forest. They're just so mystical and exotic.


Or maybe I'm completely off base and people just like them because boners. I'd hope not...:confused:

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Originally Posted by Nyvara

That's my biggest worry about all this mess is that instead of getting anything new they just opt to give us nothing. Like in WoW in the very beginning they had bikini plate such a stink was made about it by the vocal minority and Nanny police that they never made it again and now all armor in WoW is the same tired jumpsuits.

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I never played WoW but I did hear about that back in the day. This whole thing reminds me of the silly controversy surronding Lucky Chloe from Tekken 6.

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Originally Posted by Lacan

Actually, I'm not too sure about that. The thread asking for female Hrothgar is at over 1000 likes now. Isn't as much as the thread requesting male Viera, but that is still a lot. Considering we know female ronso are a thing just from FFX, it makes the decision to genderlock them even stranger.

I don't see how asking for male Viera and female Hrothgar is inherently any more political/cultural than asking for male Miqote and female Roegadyn was.

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Female Roe only make up 163k of all characters created, which is 14.8mil. That is an extremely small population of the player base. That said, I am aware that female Ronso exists in FFX and that SE side stepped that issue with Hrothgar counterpart because of lore. How many lalafell counter parts, dwarves, will be female with beards? Meanwhile, Miqo'te males make up 1.7 mil in created characters, myself included in that. Statistically speaking, those supporting specifically female Hrothgar are the calmest of the bunch, but also the minority of the group that are more hurt over the viera announcement. That or just wanting to avoid being categorized in the same group with them while still supporting the ideal.

Gender locking the two races doesn't seem to be an issue in Japan following the announcement. Why is it that important in the west? If it was just being let down by expectations, this level of reaction and this discussion wouldn't have even been a thing.