SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now

I'm also scared that future jobs are going to be thrown into the new Limited Job system as well.
I hope they look at how the community feels about this and take it into consideration for next time, since BLU is most likely too far into development to make any major changes at this time.

Honestly, I'm glad there will be a job that doesn't involve using the dungeons. One of the reasons I took an extended break was burnout from things being the same old same old. I understand why some people don't like the ' Limited ' aspect but I guess I'm in the minority. While I am a bit worried about RNG playing a role with ability learning, it's a relief to have something different be introduced.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

It's not "slightly wrong", it's using a false generality to give their opinions more credit than they actually have. By saying "everyone", they included people who actually never shared that view. It's disgustingly dishonest and disrespectful not to consider other people's opinion and trying to stomp their with yours using false and baseless claims.

Anyway.

Why would I need to imagine Yoshida saying something like that when he actually said the exact way they would do BLU if they were to implement it, and that it correspond perfectly to what they presented during the FanFest? Weird job not fit for party play that'd need heavy tweeking. That's what we got, because that's what a Blue Mage is about: having to learn an arsenal of gimmicky and situational skills from enemies to use in battle.
Blue Mage, and the toolkit given by Blue Magic in general, was never fitted to be in FFXIV. Whoever thought that a toolkit heavily based on status effects, gimmiks, enemy level, and exploiting elemental weaknesses was something that could easily fit in XIV is a fool. Edit: or very naive/ignorant.

Just look at what SMN became. A lot of people still criticize it today for not actually being a "true summoner" but a glorified pet job, which doesn't even handle pets very well. Do people really think that BLU would turn any better? Really? Or are they just lying to themselves?

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I wanted you to imagine if you had never heard that quote nor heard anything about BLU being in XIV until Yoshida mentioned it to you in that hyperthetical situation. But it seems you are so fixated on that one quote from 4 years ago, Yoshida has said plenty of things that have never come or have been out right changed since he said it. Look at all the people with his comments about the housing situation as their signatures on the forum.

And while true that SMN can be considered to be not a true SMN it's still a fully playable job that looks and smells like SMN. I'm not saying BLU we're getting wont be fun, I'll be first in line to play it and have a bit of fun.
All I'm saying is you shouldn't be upset that others are upset that it isn't a "true" job. (This one isn't entirely aimed at you, just people in general since so many people are getting angry at both sides of the fence)

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Originally Posted by Giruvegan

Honestly, I'm glad there will be a job that doesn't involve using the dungeons. One of the reasons I took an extended break was burnout from things being the same old same old. I understand why some people don't like the ' Limited ' aspect but I guess I'm in the minority. While I am a bit worried about RNG playing a role with ability learning, it's a relief to have something different be introduced.

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Oof, well set yourself up for disappointment because you're still going to be doing dungeons to learn skills, if the trailer is any indication.

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Originally Posted by Shadowshinra

I wanted you to imagine if you had never heard that quote nor heard anything about BLU being in XIV until Yoshida mentioned it to you in that hyperthetical situation. But it seems you are so fixated on that one quote from 4 years ago, Yoshida has said plenty of things that have never come or have been out right changed since he said it. Look at all the people with his comments about the housing situation as their signatures on the forum.

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Remember when he said warrior was fine and we were all playing it wrong in 2.0? Those were good times. Clearly the man had the wisdom of the ages 4-ish years ago and could never ever be wrong about anything.

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Originally Posted by Vunak

Its pretty easy to deduce that when you go through and look at threads for ideas on how to implement BLU and at the time they conformed to the amount of abilities that FFXIV had at that point and time and then go forth and try and find a thread that breaks that mold. Common, yes. Common sense doesn't mean 100% factual information there buddy. It means using information provided to formulate a sound judgement on a topic or understanding, which is exactly what I did. There are no immediate outliers on the BLU topic where someone specifically asked for 49 abilities or more than what we have in FFXIV as a general ability number. So yes common sense was used. NOW people might because SE presented it as such, but up til this point there hasn't been. Using it as an excuse to limit the job further again correlates to my - they are going out of their way to make it hard to balance so they don't have to make it a proper job.

Perhaps you should research the word baseless and then move onto common sense from there.

Wait nevermind, so there isn't further explaining that needs to be done, i'll do the research for you:

Deduce: to determine by reasoning

Baseless: not based on any good reason.

Common Sense: good sense and sound judgment in practical matters.

The burden of proof is on you to show that my argument is without reason. So off you go minion find a thread in the past speaking on BLU that breaks the mold that FFXIV has followed to date, that does not include the actual reveal on BLU since that isn't what was being talked about. Then if you do, I will amend my statement to "most everyone".

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Yoshida already called the shots fours years ago to say that BLU wouldn't be treated like the other jobs if it were going to be implemented.
What else do you need to understand that it wouldn't fit the moult?

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Originally Posted by Vunak

There are no immediate outliers on the BLU topic where someone specifically asked for 49 abilities or more than what we have in FFXIV as a general ability number.

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Oh, please. Of course you won't find anybody specifically asking for 49 skills. That's never what I said or implied, and you know it. Stop being so dishonest with your strawman. My claim was based on the fact that BLU was never going to be treated like a normal job, meaning that the number of skills would be irrelevant. Besides, we already have FFXI Blue Mage as an example.

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Originally Posted by Shadowshinra

I wanted you to imagine if you had never heard that quote nor heard anything about BLU being in XIV until Yoshida mentioned it to you in that hyperthetical situation. But it seems you are so fixated on that one quote from 4 years ago, Yoshida has said plenty of things that have never come or have been out right changed since he said it. Look at all the people with his comments about the housing situation as their signatures on the forum.

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If I claimed myself to be a "Blu Mage fan" or that I've been "waiting it for years!" or even that I participated into "asking for it", but never took the time to look up for information regarding it, then I would be ashamed of myself.
If I'm passionate about something, I take the time to invest myself in it. I don't simply come to complain when it's too late because I didn't care until then.

Besides, isn't it a bit easy to criticize Yoshida when he doesn't stay true to his word, and also when he does? They really can't win, heh.

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Originally Posted by Shadowshinra

And while true that SMN can be considered to be not a true SMN it's still a fully playable job that looks and smells like SMN. I'm not saying BLU we're getting wont be fun, I'll be first in line to play it and have a bit of fun.
All I'm saying is you shouldn't be upset that others are upset that it isn't a "true" job. (This one isn't entirely aimed at you, just people in general since so many people are getting angry at both sides of the fence)

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Go and tell that to the people who are still bitter about SMN or RDM. I'm sure it will change their mind.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Yoshida already called the shots fours years ago to say that BLU wouldn't be treated like the other jobs if it were going to be implemented.
What else do you need to understand that it wouldn't fit the moult?

Oh, please. Of course you won't find anybody specifically asking for 49 skills. That's never what I said or implied, and you know it. Stop being so dishonest with your strawman. My claim was based on the fact that BLU was never going to be treated like a normal job, meaning that the number of skills would be irrelevant. Besides, we already have FFXI Blue Mage as an example.

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You have a pretty bad habit of picking specific points in someones posts and trying to use them out of context of the whole post to make your own point which is way more dishonest. Also, its not like a developer has EVER gone back on what they said from previous years because they thought about something for a bit and were able to figure it out down the road right? Especially when the community has been mulling it over for years and giving out suggestions. Nope never happened.

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Originally Posted by Vunak

You have a pretty bad habit of picking specific points in someones posts and trying to use them out of context of the whole post to make your own point which is way more dishonest.

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You spoke for everyone, I called you on it because it was not the case. You then went on into basically insulting me for lacking common sense. I explained why what you did was dishonest. And now I'm the bad guy? If you don't want people to blame you for using false and disrespectful arguments, don't use them. Pretty simple.

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Originally Posted by Vunak

Also, its not like a developer has EVER gone back on what they said from previous years because they thought about something for a bit and were able to figure it out down the road right? Especially when the community has been mulling it over for years and giving out suggestions. Nope never happened.

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Oh so, now when a developper say something, we should expect the opposite to happen even when there's absolutly nothing to show that it would be the case. Okay then.
While you are right when you say that it could happen, banking all your hopes on it like it was bound to happen is stupid.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Go and tell that to the people who are still bitter about SMN or RDM. I'm sure it will change their mind.

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Upvoted for this.

SE is tired of being told they are butchering jobs by making them fit the raid scene. So, they are listening and ditching that to give people what they think they want. The community brought this on itself.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

You spoke for everyone, I called you on it because it was not the case. You then went on into basically insulting me for lacking common sense. I explained why what you did was dishonest. And now I'm the bad guy? If you don't want people to blame you for using false and disrespectful arguments, don't use them. Pretty simple.

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You made a cheeky post trying to be trolly and funny and I called you on it. Don't start out being passive aggressive and then get hurt when someone retaliates.

False? You still haven't proven that it was false. if you are going to accuse someone, at least have proof of the accusation. I even said I would amend my post. Yet you're still being passive aggressive.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Oh so, now when a developper say something, we should expect the opposite to happen even when there's absolutly nothing to show that it would be the case. Okay then.
While you are right when you say that it could happen, banking all your hopes on it like it was bound to happen is stupid.

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Again you are taking things out of context to fit your own agenda. BLU has been a pretty requested thing for years now and many in the community have given out good ideas on how they could implement it and still fit into FFXIV and give the sense of BLU that is envisioned (which really is hard to do since BLU drastically changes from title to title, they could of done just about anything with the class so long as it used monster abilities). So expecting SE to change their stance on something like that isn't outside the realm of normalcy when its had such a following and is iconic to the FF franchise and its also been done in another FF MMO of all things. Its not like asking for Chocobo Knight something way out there.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Oof, well set yourself up for disappointment because you're still going to be doing dungeons to learn skills, if the trailer is any indication.

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I thought you couldn't queue into any of them unless you had a pre-made group?
From what I saw of the Live Letter, the emphasis seems to be on leveling in open world right?
Even if I would have to enter them rarely, that's still an improvement to me.

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Originally Posted by Giruvegan

I thought you couldn't queue into any of them unless you had a pre-made group?
From what I saw of the Live Letter, the emphasis seems to be on leveling in open world right?
Even if I would have to enter them rarely, that's still an improvement to me.

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An Open world, solo focused job, yes, based on what we know so far. You CAN still do instanced content, provided you bring your own formed group, provided requirements met. So 50 and lower content at first, with it increasing later on, with your own party.

This is all stupid.
Y'all don't even know what that "Limited Job" is going to be aside from the slides during fanfest.
If you're hating it even before it came out, you'll be disappointed no matter how bad or good that system will turn out to be.

I have really a lot of trouble understanding how some people can judge something they didn't even test.

IMO, SE has no idea how to correctly implement this, and is actually doing a live alpha/beta test of the job. SE will just patiently wait for players to come up with some kind of rotations - and will then eventually adjust, make the final tuning to allow BLU into DF while removing it's level cap.
I really doubt they want to leave BLU at that mini-game state forever.

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Originally Posted by Giruvegan

I thought you couldn't queue into any of them unless you had a pre-made group?
From what I saw of the Live Letter, the emphasis seems to be on leveling in open world right?
Even if I would have to enter them rarely, that's still an improvement to me.

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You are correct, you can only enter with premade groups. The trailer showed him in Cutter's Cry, so maybe his teammates were off-screen or something.

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Originally Posted by Moogly

This is all stupid.
Y'all don't even know what that "Limited Job" is going to be aside from the slides during fanfest.
If you're hating it even before it came out, you'll be disappointed no matter how bad or good that system will turn out to be.

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Did... you miss the live letter? They talked about Blue Mage for like, 40 minutes.

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I have really a lot of trouble understanding how some people can judge something they didn't even test.

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If SE said they're going to randomly reassign jobs and skills and your hotbar every 2 to 4 minutes randomly and now you have to just deal with it... would you need to test that to know that's a stupid idea that makes no sense? A bad idea is a bad idea.

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IMO, SE has no idea how to correctly implement this, and is actually doing a live alpha/beta test of the job. SE will just patiently wait for players to come up with some kind of rotations - and will then eventually adjust, make the final tuning to allow BLU into DF while removing it's level cap.
I really doubt they want to leave BLU at that mini-game state forever.

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Given that their reasons for BLU not being in endgame content have nothing to do with rotations and everything to do with balancing out instant-kill moves and parties potentially excluding BLUs who are too lazy to get their skills before raids... yeah I'm not going to assume they're gonna just let them into Shadowbringer raids.

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Originally Posted by Giruvegan

I thought you couldn't queue into any of them unless you had a pre-made group?
From what I saw of the Live Letter, the emphasis seems to be on leveling in open world right?
Even if I would have to enter them rarely, that's still an improvement to me.

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Nope! Whenever you kill the monster in question, you have a "low chance" of learning the skill. Yup, RNG. You will have to grind specific dungeons/trials repeatedly to get all skills. That's going to be a pain without duty finder access, and you will be at the mercy of finding friends who will run dungeons/trials with you repeatedly until you get the skill. Friends who will not get any tomestone/gil rewards because of the decision to lock BLU out of Duty Finder.

I like the notion that we get to "playtest" it without racing toward end-game content.

I really, really, REALLY hope that they take any and all of our feedback (once we all get our hands on it) into consideration rather than being like another large game development company who basically spit in the face of their players and said "we're doing it our way anyway, and you'll like it."

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Originally Posted by XelphatolTylenolCepacolAlcohol

Nope! Whenever you kill the monster in question, you have a "low chance" of learning the skill.
You will have to grind specific dungeons/trials repeatedly to get all skills. That's going to be a pain without duty finder access, and you will be at the mercy of finding friends who will run dungeons/trials with you repeatedly until you get the skill.

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How is this ' solo-focused ' if you have to rely on having other people to play with?
I already knew about the RNG and this had me worried enough but now that I see the ramifications this just sounds like a pain more than anything. . .
Whatever excitement I had is slowly draining

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Originally Posted by Giruvegan

How is this ' solo-focused ' if you have to rely on having other people to play with?
I already knew about the RNG and this had me worried enough but now that I see the ramifications this just sounds like a pain more than anything. . .
Whatever excitement I had is slowly draining

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Because the whole point of it is to go on a solo instance to put those spell to use to complete it as your final blue mage goal. Because the most efficient way to level up is to grind mob alone in the overworld or because of this :
https://i.gyazo.com/cd5d2ed91a87f558...ab358680f0.png

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Originally Posted by Giruvegan

How is this ' solo-focused ' if you have to rely on having other people to play with?
I already knew about the RNG and this had me worried enough but now that I see the ramifications this just sounds like a pain more than anything. . .
Whatever excitement I had is slowly draining

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Careful. We're moving from discussion to speculation slowly here. We don't know anything about what kind of RNG this is, or even if things like primals have a 100% drop rate, or maybe BLU could SOLO them. We have no idea right now.

Be careful about too much speculation here.

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Originally Posted by Giruvegan

How is this ' solo-focused ' if you have to rely on having other people to play with?

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Well, you need other people to get (some) your skills, it's just that you won't be able to play with other people for your end-game content. So it's essentially a backwards version of what you want.

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I already knew about the RNG and this had me worried enough but now that I see the ramifications this just sounds like a pain more than anything. . .
Whatever excitement I had is slowly draining

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Don't you love trying to convince your friends to run Shiva with you a bunch of times in a row until you finally learn her skill? At least they can... uh, they can... get... 15 poetics?

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Careful. We're moving from discussion to speculation slowly here. We don't know anything about what kind of RNG this is, or even if things like primals have a 100% drop rate, or maybe BLU could SOLO them. We have no idea right now.

Be careful about too much soeculation here.

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They hinted that the learn rates might be different for different difficulties of fights, so unless they feel like changing it (I hope they do!) to 100% on primal fights it's still going to be RNG. Plus the example numbers they gave for certain skills made it seem like a pretty low chance for most enemies.

I would much rather have had blue mage implemented like a normal FFXIV job with the monster abilities it learns being part of its job quests and chosen to work within the normal structure of class abilities for FFXIV. It just does not feel right to have a job that can't actually go into duty finder, etc.

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Originally Posted by Vasala

I would much rather have had blue mage implemented like a normal FFXIV job with the monster abilities it learns being part of its job quests and chosen to work within the normal structure of class abilities for FFXIV. It just does not feel right to have a job that can't actually go into duty finder, etc.

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I imagine if we could go back in time to conduct a poll of which version of BLU people would prefer, it'd be this.

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Originally Posted by Vasala

I would much rather have had blue mage implemented like a normal FFXIV job with the monster abilities it learns being part of its job quests and chosen to work within the normal structure of class abilities for FFXIV. It just does not feel right to have a job that can't actually go into duty finder, etc.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I imagine if we could go back in time to conduct a poll of which version of BLU people would prefer, it'd be this.

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I co-sign this. That is 100% what I expected, and I would have been completely satisfied. Being hit by a monster skill has been the most common way in the FF series, but has not been the only way. Hell, just on the fly, I could think of our job quests being monster hunts, and then consuming the monster (or a certain part of the monster) or its soul to obtain its power. Like Quina or Shang Tsung.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Did... you miss the live letter? They talked about Blue Mage for like, 40 minutes.

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They talked about the nintendo switch for more than a year, and everybody was laughing at how bad it was going to fail and how nintendo had such a twisted view of modern gaming....

So you saw 40 minutes of BLU slides and a 1 minute video : of course you know what it is going to be all about and can confirm it will suck.

Yea sure.

I rather stand with Yoshi P, who's been able to deliver us quality content most of the time, than listen to some random people on forums who have no clues about game design.... and give judgements on things they haven't even put their hands on............

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Originally Posted by Vasala

I would much rather have had blue mage implemented like a normal FFXIV job with the monster abilities it learns being part of its job quests and chosen to work within the normal structure of class abilities for FFXIV. It just does not feel right to have a job that can't actually go into duty finder, etc.

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Ok. So your position is that it is more important to you that you can play it in parties, than it is to keep it closer to its design aspects. That is, you want more party play, at the cost of BLU being, well, a Blue Mage.

Because that seems like a really wierd and silly argument if you actually thought about how Balancing would actually work.

-Lets consider this then. So you would start off with limited skills, and would be required to learn skills from Monsters. Ok. So youve just created a class who now learns skills more difficultly than other classes. That means in party play, unless you have all the skills for your lvl, youre gonna be dead weight to the party.
-Then you have to consider. How many skills will you have access too? If you give them access to "as many as they want so long as they learn them," that gives BLUs overwhelming advantages party wise compared to other classes. So youre gonna have to limit what skills they could learn, or how many skills they can use at any given time.
-Then you need to consider balance of skills vs other classes. In solo content, having powerful skills makes sense cause your survival depends on it. In party content, that power is divided up between members. To ensure BLU would be balanced in a party, that means gimping the spells learned from monsters. Youll have your generic dot, generic AoE, Generic single target skills. You may have some skills with CC on them, but theyll be limited in scope because High DMG + CC is OP in a party setting. So what becomes the play mechanic of the class then. It was "Learn all these powerful monster skills." But now thats being ham-stringed by balancing it against a party setting. So it just becomes a caster who has a harder time learning skills and will be essentially more akin to BLM but without any of hte shifting mechanics. And if you add specialty mechanics, then its no longer a BLU, because its core identity is learning skills from monsters.



This is the problem. If the gimmick of the class is learning skills from monsters, then the only way that works in a party setting is to limit the scope of skills, and limit the power. And with nothing else to offer, the class then loses its identity because the whole idea of monster skills is that they are exceptionally powerful, but would be reduced and put more in line with other casters. And mind you, most casters are fairly similar in the sense of available skills, but differ in play styles and gimmicks specific to the class.

With all this in mind, do you believe deep down people would be more satisfied with this? Or would it be much more likely people complain about how dumb downed BLU is and how bad a job SE did implementing it.

Theyre giving us something different, and trying to give us the BLU experience. It came with a cost. But I think thats fine compared to it being a lackluster reskinned caster with no real self identity.

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Originally Posted by Vunak

You made a cheeky post trying to be trolly and funny and I called you on it. Don't start out being passive aggressive and then get hurt when someone retaliates.

False? You still haven't proven that it was false. if you are going to accuse someone, at least have proof of the accusation. I even said I would amend my post. Yet you're still being passive aggressive.

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You are the one who made the positive and bold claim that "everyone that has asked for BLU has anticipated the standard fair of abilities that every class gets". You didn't provide any proof to back up that claim. And now you ask me to show you why you shouldn't say that everyone shares that view? You understand how easy that is? You understand that I only have to find one person in the world who don't share that statement to invalidate it? Well okay. You asked for it.

Me. I never expected BLU to be treated like all the other jobs. Number of skills included. Why? Easy: the toolkit usually given by Blue Magic doesn't fit FFXIV at all. Learning skills in combat is such a unique mechanic that it basically makes the number of skills irrelevant, as the game could simply make you learn a bazillion of skills until you're set with a choice that suits you (which is exactly what they did). And finally, because the director and producer himself explicitly said that they would not be able to make it fit.

There goes your "everyone".
BUT! But... I'm not done yet. I understand that it might feel a bit cheeky (again) and I don't want you to feel cheated (lol, I actually simply want to crush these extremely annoying and dishonest arguments that can be boiled into "everyone thinks like me!", but shhhh, don't tell) so I'm providing you with actual examples of multiple people not thinking that BLU would be able to fit the mold, some of them suggesting drastic changes to the core design of the jobs to allow SE to implement "weird jobs".

Here
you
go
!
(Thanks to Fawkes for taking the time to provide some of them I didn't found)

Oh and, before you say it, yes, I'm aware that some people actually do think like you. But that's not the point. The point is to say that some people don't, which is something you apparently didn't think was possible.

Now, I hope you understand that I won't debate with you any further. You've put a huge burden on me after you made a positive claim, and I had to take the time to provide you with something that was actually very obvious: some people don't have the same opinion as yours. I don't even know why I wasted my time with that, but heh.
And I hope that if you want to change your stance to "most people think..." you'll provide statistical good data. Because that's how things work.

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Originally Posted by Vunak

Again you are taking things out of context to fit your own agenda. BLU has been a pretty requested thing for years now and many in the community have given out good ideas on how they could implement it and still fit into FFXIV and give the sense of BLU that is envisioned (which really is hard to do since BLU drastically changes from title to title, they could of done just about anything with the class so long as it used monster abilities). So expecting SE to change their stance on something like that isn't outside the realm of normalcy when its had such a following and is iconic to the FF franchise and its also been done in another FF MMO of all things. Its not like asking for Chocobo Knight something way out there.

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Taking your opponents arguments and debuking them when they are wrong is the basics of arguing. If you say to me "the sky is blue, 1+1=3, fire burns", I have all the rights to call you out on your second claim. That's not dishonest or taking thing out of context. That's simply not agreeing with one argument.
As for "the community gave ideas!", that's true. But that doesn't mean that they were good ideas, or that SE should be bound into listening them.
I'm not enforcing my agenda or anything. I'm not the one making baseless claims to rally "everyone" to my cause. But I'm the one that understand that this is not a democracy. The majority doesn't mean jack in a theme park MMO. If SE wants to do something else with their battle job, they bloody well can do so. They don't have to listen to anyone if they don't want to. And that's something you don't seem to understand.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I imagine if we could go back in time to conduct a poll of which version of BLU people would prefer, it'd be this.

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Anyone who keeps brining up the "I want it to be implemented so it can be used like all the other classes," please describe to us, in your own words, how you would balance it? And be clear and to the point about details. Cause Ive been thinking this over a bit, and I am more in line with the Devs. Balancing it would not be possible without it being OP or without it having its identity gutted and gimped.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Anyone who keeps brining up the "I want it to be implemented so it can be used like all the other classes," please describe to us, in your own words, how you would balance it? And be clear and to the point about details. Cause Ive been thinking this over a bit, and I am more in line with the Devs. Balancing it would not be possible without it being OP or without it having its identity gutted and gimped.

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Blue mage identity is learning spell from monster and making them their, not being an over powered mage. How is that difficult to do compared to learning song by myself after a quest or any other way we learn our skill in job quest ? What kind of mysterious reason force those skill to being far too much powerfull ? Like Yeah bad breath as it is would be OP but why used by a Blue mage it can't be a damage debuff per exemple ? How Mighty guard can't be a simple single or party wide defense boost ? How any other skill can't be balanced like any other ? Because shiva does 7.500 k damage with her skill Blue mage should do the same regardless of his own capacity/strenght ?

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

So because it would require actual interaction, because it can rely on people stronger than it if people don't want to fully do it at level, it's not MMO like? Human interaction? THE HORROR!

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Yes require human interaction in content that would be a curbstomp. SO MUCH FUN!

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Ok. So your position is that it is more important to you that you can play it in parties, than it is to keep it closer to its design aspects...

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A Blue Mage's only universal feature, throughout all installments, has been that it learns monster abilities. That's it. The mechanism as to how has varied. Job quests are a completely viable option. We had items in 8, eating in 9, and using an ability in 10. A job quest is perfectly acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

-Lets consider this then. So you would start off with limited skills, and would be required to learn skills from Monsters...

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If they're part of job quests, how are they more difficult to learn? We already have some crucial skills tied to job quests for the other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

-Then you have to consider. How many skills will you have access too?...

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Yes, just like how other jobs are limited. I don't think anyone is calling for the entire catalog of Blue Magic in the history of FF to be available. There just need to be a few token abilities thrown into the mix.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

-Then you need to consider balance of skills vs other classes....

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Yes, the properties of BLU spells could not be 100% identical to their incarnations in other games and would have to be adjusted to be balanced in FFXIV's system. Really, all a spell chiefly needs is cosmetics. Most other things are negotiable. Let's take Mighty Guard for example. It normally casts Shell, Protect, and other defensive buffs for several turns. In FFXIV, we could make it so that increases defense and magic defense by 8% for 5 seconds. There, I just made a version that can be used in XIV. I take particular issue with this argument, because from what we gather from the Live Letter, the team just ported incarnations from previous installments (which would obviously be broken) and did not tailor them at all to XIV.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

This is the problem. If the gimmick of the class is learning skills from monsters, then the only way that works in a party setting is to limit the scope of skills, and limit the power. And with nothing else to offer, the class then loses its identity because...

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The whole idea of monster skills is NOT that they are exceptionally powerful. A few Blue Mage spells were very powerful in certain games, but those are outliers. Most had quirky effects and were just for fun, and some were completely useless in their respective games.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

With all this in mind, do you believe deep down people would be more satisfied with this?.

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I respect your opinion here, but I have to disagree with it. I think more people would have preferred what you described compared to what we received. There's token complaining with any job reveal, to the point that it's almost de rigueur, but it would have been much more tamer than all this.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I hope you understand that I won't debate with you any further.

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Now I know you weren't talking to me and I don't with to continue debating either since it's clear we could go on all day and all night and that's not fair on ether of us lol, however the examples you picked aren't the best, despite the posters wanting reworks of the system to provide BLU I'm sure they would have wanted their version of BLU to be fully playable in all environments as well, just saying.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Anyone who keeps brining up the "I want it to be implemented so it can be used like all the other classes," please describe to us, in your own words, how you would balance it? And be clear and to the point about details. Cause Ive been thinking this over a bit, and I am more in line with the Devs. Balancing it would not be possible without it being OP or without it having its identity gutted and gimped.

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I'm no game designer but I'll go with this way I've seen thrown around a few times since the announcement, they add a second 24 slot bar like what they're already adding, but when placed into said bar creates a "balanced" version of the attack, eg Breath attacks become the same baring perhaps stun and silence effects but with a 250 potency or something (throwing out random numbers), since all jobs sort of have a gimmick for their attacks BLU's new gimmick is that it has no set rotation, just it's attacks which can be used in any order though I'm sure people will come up with a "best rotation" like any other job

Quickly created this in paint after reading the message
https://i.imgur.com/svYuXsY.png

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

-Lets consider this then. So you would start off with limited skills, and would be required to learn skills from Monsters. Ok. So youve just created a class who now learns skills more difficultly than other classes. That means in party play, unless you have all the skills for your lvl, youre gonna be dead weight to the party.
-Then you have to consider. How many skills will you have access too? If you give them access to "as many as they want so long as they learn them," that gives BLUs overwhelming advantages party wise compared to other classes. So youre gonna have to limit what skills they could learn, or how many skills they can use at any given time.
-Then you need to consider balance of skills vs other classes. In solo content, having powerful skills makes sense cause your survival depends on it. In party content, that power is divided up between members. To ensure BLU would be balanced in a party, that means gimping the spells learned from monsters. Youll have your generic dot, generic AoE, Generic single target skills. You may have some skills with CC on them, but theyll be limited in scope because High DMG + CC is OP in a party setting. So what becomes the play mechanic of the class then. It was "Learn all these powerful monster skills." But now thats being ham-stringed by balancing it against a party setting. So it just becomes a caster who has a harder time learning skills and will be essentially more akin to BLM but without any of hte shifting mechanics. And if you add specialty mechanics, then its no longer a BLU, because its core identity is learning skills from monsters.

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I'm not sold that all of what you suggested is impossible to solve via compromise on tradition and function though. Like summoners in FF games normally take the whole party off the screen while you watch a 15 second to 2 minute movie.. :D. Fairly certain people were okay to make some compromise in order to play summoner. Although I want to be fair and say not everyone agrees on what to comprise and when so I'm not saying a comprise would be fine with you or everyone (or how to go about it), just that I don't think this is a "make it boring or make it great and there is //no// middle ground" scenario. Given that they will release it to 50 in 4.5 though it'll definitely not be possible to even pretend to imagine blue mage changing much till then, perhaps for the expansion - if they find something that works better (or maybe everyone tries the 4.5 and is like "omg nvm leave it as is").

For example instead of dead weights (blue mages missing core spells) you have the game not allow you to duty finder content until you have all the skills under the level bracket you're signing up for. And to add I would be okay with one job having extra work involved to maintain (so long as they're not time gated from content, like "can't play new content until they update the system a month after content is out"), especially if the mechanics were fun (getting a sweet open world exp buff and learning things from monsters could be worth the "cost").

If the concern is the selection is too large there could be a core set of skills designed for duty finder/raid, and side skills for outside of that. Especially if the concern is the class is too fluid (customize-able, or that players always make terrible choices in their customization). Things like level 5 death could be in that outside category, so no worry about level 5 deathing ultima. Also to consider is that you could make the job be one of the more/most fluid jobs, especially as it has a cost associated with it to justify it more than other jobs (learning skills). Like a Druid in WoW for example with their ability to transform for different skills and stats (which with talents can do well in one spec and subpar in others, and with a few button presses outside of dungeon/combat can switch the one they do well in).

FFXI made a Blue Mage work that had much of the system we've seen FFXIV's will have but was allowed into group play... although perhaps not so much on those crazy weird spells like "level 5 death" lol. But again, I don't think that's an unsolvable problem and doesn't require getting rid of nifty goof spells like death.

I guess in other words they have 49 skills right now, already, I don't think it's unfathomable to suggest that they take a subset of those skills and make them fair for group play and available at release (the subset, not all of them). Then they can add unbalanced ones that are restricted in use (like no duty finder) for fun later, if they so desire. There could even be a passive skill blue mages learn at level 1 that dictates that their out of duty finder skills are more powerful, therefore SE could tune down the subset they've chosen for blue but leave them even more ridiculous for open world/solo play.

Also I'm sure others have posted it but I thought it made a funny picture, here are FFXI's blue mage skills in one image lol:

https://i.imgur.com/wXjtU9S.png

Not saying anything is easy, just not sold that this is some unsolvable middle ground. I'm more thinking SE doesn't want to spend disproportional money on a job just because it should be special (even worse if the job isn't popular to play but it costs them 50% more to maintain compared to say BLM), I'm not the accountant/dev so all I can say is "wish you get enough money and time so it's worth it/possible and then change your mind" lol.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Anyone who keeps brining up the "I want it to be implemented so it can be used like all the other classes," please describe to us, in your own words, how you would balance it? And be clear and to the point about details. Cause Ive been thinking this over a bit, and I am more in line with the Devs. Balancing it would not be possible without it being OP or without it having its identity gutted and gimped.

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First of all, you're assuming this game is perfectly balanced now. It's not. BRD offers more than MCH. WAR offers more than DRK. NIN offers more than all of the melee jobs combined. Caster's are possibly the most balanced with respect to one another, though I think SMN is leading the pack here. WHMs are getting left behind now too. So this argument that "balancing BLU is too hard" shouldn't hold water - This game has never been balanced to begin with.

Second, I don't have all day to build a "How I would make BLU". It doesn't matter and quite frankly I'm not that interested. I will only say that it doesn't seem like it would've been impossible. Actions could be obtained the same way, and overly powerful actions could be limited to solo situations (for example Big Guard or White Wind can only be used on self, this would help alleviate it being stacked with other defensive buffs for tank busters or raidwides). Obviously stuff like L5 Death or Bad Breath wouldn't have an effect on raid bosses. You could still have a bunch of BLU abilities, and the method of obtaining them which is unique to BLU and powerful for solo play, and still have it be compatible within a group.

The main problem, at least in my opinion, is that this feels like Eureka 2.0. It's an RNG-filled, side-content grind that's highly irrelevant to the game overall instead of a fully fleshed out battle job that can participate in all content. It's basically a Relic Job. It's basically Diablo Immortal in that people didn't ask for or expect this kind of re-incarnation of BLU.

I ASSUME, and this is a giant assumption on my part, anyone that had been asking for BLU to be in this game would've been willing to compromise and accept a form of BLU that fit's in with the system rather than one that is separate from it. I don't believe anyone asked for BLU with the intent of having it be entirely separate content, they wanted to play it as a main job or an alt, or just something to kick around with randomly (me if I chose to level it). So you can keep trying to justify their decision to yourself all you want, but it's not likely to convince others this was the correct choice to make for BLU.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

And I hope that if you want to change your stance to "most people think..." you'll provide statistical good data. Because that's how things work.

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There is a poll : https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...echanic_to_be/
At this time it gives advantage to the "make it a regular job" side, which doesn't surprise me : to be honest, I was expecting it to be regular job, and my reaction was much similar to the fanfest crowd at the announcement.
Though I was also wondering how they would manage to make it a ffxiv job knowing how blue mages work.
So in the end, I wont say I'm hyped, rather curious at how this will play... it will give me something to level anyway, so w/ever. Who knows it might actually be fun.

From what I understood, it should work with PF.
If so, I will try some dungeons, making some T/H/BLUx2 groups or T/BLUx3 or even BLUx4 depending on how well it performs !

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Originally Posted by Fyce

As for "the community gave ideas!", that's true. But that doesn't mean that they were good ideas, or that SE should be bound into listening them.

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People need to understand that.
If it was a bad idea, then too bad. It's not the first time ffxiv fails on a piece of content.
We still have the new xpack coming, other new jobs, viera...

I'm all for this myself. I'm tired of "just another job" which will be so mathematically balanced, to end up being "just another job" in the end.

They need to mix this game up a little, because the whole grind 450/week, 4 tokens/week, 24 man/week, is beyond old and tired. I'm not even mentioning anything else, because nothing else is worth doing. Eureka? Spare me, please.

This game needs something like this introduced, which doesn't have to solely rely on various people's schedules lining up through celestial balance to do anything.

Bring it on, I say.

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Originally Posted by Moogly

There is a poll : https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...echanic_to_be/

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I'm not a fan of that poll. I don't see why the learning mechanic for Blue Mage must be removed for Blue Mage to participate in raids. Those are two completely separate things. The strength of its spells are what creations an issue and that's just a matter of adjusting numbers. The poll also only specifies raiding when the current rendition bars it from participating in endgame as a whole. There are those who think Blue Mage shouldn't be allowed to raid, but it should be able to participate in other content such as Roulette. Put simply, I don't think it's the best representation for the reception of Blue Mage as a Limited Job.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Snip.

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Nothing in that post that I read, though I didn't read it all as its a huge thread and you didn't point to anything specific, really proves you right or wrong. But what I did read shows people using current systems in FFXIV to make BLU work with a few more abilities. Like the pet bar to swap between monster stances or Ninja's ability system to create more skills. I don't really recall anyone stating that they thought BLU wouldn't learn abilities off of monsters in some form, whether through the job quests or just out in the open like the current implementation similar to XI. That doesn't break balance. Most of the high spell count discussion was in talks about XI from what I read.

You only deal in extremes it seems. Black and white for you. If it doesn't fit for you its black if someone agrees with you and are on your side its white. Talking with people like you is pointless.

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Originally Posted by Derceto

I'm all for this myself. I'm tired of "just another job" which will be so mathematically balanced, to end up being "just another job" in the end.

They need to mix this game up a little, because the whole grind 450/week, 4 tokens/week, 24 man/week, is beyond old and tired. I'm not even mentioning anything else, because nothing else is worth doing. Eureka? Spare me, please.

This game needs something like this introduced, which doesn't have to solely rely on various people's schedules lining up through celestial balance to do anything.

Bring it on, I say.

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I would be all for that. Create extra content for things to shake stuff up. But I don't see where in that line there has to be a limitation on it. Why does one mean you can't have the other. We already have the capability of unique action bars like in PvP. They already as they said have it where you can set a certain number of abilities. Why then did they not decide that X number of abilities are designated for group content and are balanced against the other classes for those purposes and leave what they have implemented in for the side content they have planned for BLU. It doesn't have to be balanced twice. Just like PvP abilities aren't balanced twice.

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

I'm not a fan of that poll. I don't see why the learning mechanic for Blue Mage must be removed for Blue Mage to participate in raids. Those are two completely separate things. The strength of its spells are what creations an issue and that's just a matter of adjusting numbers. The poll also only specifies raiding when the current rendition bars it from participating in endgame as a whole. There are those who think Blue Mage shouldn't be allowed to raid, but it should be able to participate in other content such as Roulette. Put simply, I don't think it's the best representation for the reception of Blue Mage as a Limited Job.

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There's so many ways to turn around the question and to nitpick on details, but the way it is asked in the poll itself https://www.strawpoll.me/16866229 pretty much sums it all.
And it is the only poll that I know of (i guess +5K votes should make a little reliable)

Just going to say that I'm loving this idea, and very much excited to go hands on with it. :)
Hopefully, we'll see more jobs that bring in unique builds and player choice. :)

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

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OK, I will be detailed. Recall that this is a spitball idea that took less than 10 minutes to think up.

Before listing spells, I will go ahead and point out that they already have a system to limit you to 24 abilities. Assuming some percent of abilities ARE broken, just make sure the 24 at time of queue aren't, a boolean value on the spell saying it is not allowed. OK, spell ideas that are easily tweakable (took list from wiki and customized to easily balancable effects):

Generic moves from many games:
Angel Whisper - Standard resurrection spell
Mighty Guard - low duration shield to compensate for aoe (shake it off)
White Wind - like convert, but instead of giving mana, gives health to a target
Frog Song - Inflicts Toad on an enemy, boss immune/dungeon restricted
Magic Hammer - Does damage and returns MP (same as energy drain).
Night - Aoe Sleep. Functions identically to BLM.
Aero - inflicts Wind elemental damage single target. magic damage, wind marker on BLU gauge
Aqua Breath - inflicts Water elemental damage aoe cone target. magic damage, water marker on BLU gauge if it hits
Bad Breath - Bad Breath inflicts various statuses in cone. bosses would be immune to all but the dot portion.
Flamethrower - inflicts Fire elemental damage single target. magic damage, fire marker on BLU gauge
Doom - Doom inflicts the Doom status on one enemy. boss immune/dungeon restricted
Level 5 Death - Level 5 Death inflicts Instant Death on all enemies whose levels are a multiple of 5. boss immune/dungeon restricted
Roulette - randomly KOs an enemy or a party member. boss immune/dungeon restricted
1000 Needles - 1000 damage to an enemy, ignores defense, trait up later.
Acid - Acid inflicts non-elemental damage to an enemy, applies vulnerability
Blaster - inflicts non-elemental damage and attempts to inflict Instant Death on the target. boss immune/dungeon restricted
Goblin Punch - inflicts non-elemental damage to one enemy, low damage, fast cast time.
Lifebreak - potency increases the lower BLU's health. single target, long CD
Limit Glove - high damage move that can only be used by consuming all 6 elements on the BLU gauge.
Matra Magic - non-elemental aoe high damage, long cd
Self-Destruct - sacrifice for huge damage. boss immune/dungeon restricted

To balance out the gauge mentioned above, the following would also be needed (all 7 gauge moves required for dungeons - would be core gimmick)
Earth Shake - Circle aoe of Earth damage. magic damage, earth marker on BLU gauge if it hits
Electrocute - Circle aoe of Lightning damage. magic damage, lightning marker on BLU gauge if it hits
Cold Wave - damage over time Ice damage. magic damage, ice marker on BLU gauge

You could actually take even more of their elemental abilities (11 added a ridiculous number), so that they have aoe AND single target for both, and have more than one option to consume the gauge.