Sexual harassment

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Originally Posted by Gleipni

It make laugh to hear people talking about sexual harassment IN GAME,like,the dude being to explicit ? blacklist it,he do other caracter to do it t? tell support he will get ban.

But then if the "victim" prefer to not talk because it would start a drama,they deserve it,they have the choice to talk,and they don't.

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No one /deserves/ to be abused. Period. What an absolutely disgusting sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Enla

No one /deserves/ to be abused. Period. What an absolutely disgusting sentiment.

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i see that taking only 1 word of my whole sentence to make something out of context is a thing.
Imagine this,that personn did not talk,the abuser continue to abuse that personn,and then will abuse other people because no one spoke,but if someone would have speak,people would have not be harassed,the abuser would have stop,and the victim may have the satisfaction to have his abuser stoped

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

anything linked to women gets linked to feminism

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Coooooooooooooool.

Let's take the flipside.

Let's make it all politics.

Don't like political talk? Bye.

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Originally Posted by Gleipni

i see that taking only 1 word of my whole sentence to make something out of context is a thing.
Imagine this,that personn did not talk,the abuser continue to abuse that personn,and then will abuse other people because no one spoke,but if someone would have speak,people would have not be harassed,the abuser would have stop,and the victim may have the satisfaction to have his abuser stoped

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The abuser isn't some rando. It was someone they trusted, who then used that trust in order to manipulate them into doing what he wanted. He then got contact info outside of FF (thus making it much harder to just blacklist), and blackmailed many of the women, threatening to release videos and photos they had either trusted him with, or than he coerced them into making.

If you're not actually informed on what happened, why post?

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Originally Posted by Gleipni

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I've been the victim of abuse and have had many friends who have been in similar situations to what actually was being described in the article, which wasn't some random person appearing out of the blue but a long term abuser who isolated his victims. Speaking up doesn't magically change anything and often can cause only more hardship for those involved if the accusations aren't believed. Which can only further hurt and isolate the victim and cause them to lose friendships and their self worth. So yes, it's /very/ much disgusting to me that you paint such a complex situation with such broad strokes and place all the blame on the victims for not coming forward sooner. Life isn't some TV movie where things magically get better because someone took a stand. Abuse isn't that simple and no one deserves to be subjected to it. Period.

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Originally Posted by Gleipni

It make laugh to hear people talking about sexual harassment IN GAME,like,the dude being to explicit ? blacklist it,he do other caracter to do it t? tell support he will get ban.

But then if the "victim" prefer to not talk because it would start a drama,they deserve it,they have the choice to talk,and they don't.

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The issue with comments like these ignores the fact that yes, it does happen. The OP brought up the situation that has been the main topic of this thread, and there is nothing funny about this. Yes, these are pixels, but there are real people behind those pixels and some behavior can be very disturbing. But the thread isn’t talking about just in-game stuff. This was a situation that bled out into the real world. I dunno where you hail from, but anybody that says that anybody deserves their abuse because they wouldn’t speak up is lacking in morals and human decency.

As the poster above me said, NOBODY deserves to be abused. Not in game, not in real life. One of the victims from the original article that this was linked to, if everything presented thus far is truthful, was trapped for a period of two months, with no easy way to get back home. Because she didn’t speak up prior to this about feeling uncomfortable, she deserves that? If something terrible happened, she would deserve that because she didn’t speak up?

That’s a disgusting statement to make.

There is a reason that situations like these are still so prevalent. Some of the comments in this thread happen in real life, people who mock victims in similar situations, who say they deserve it because they didn’t speak up or involve law enforcement, but when you’re in an emotionally compromised state of mind, or don’t have that strong will that some of us seem to have, it’s not a simple task at all. Some may take years to finally build up that strength, some may never find the strength to get it. I said it earlier, real lives are being negatively affected because of the drama that occurred out of this – if law enforcement gets involved, or God forbid it continues to spiral out of control, real lives are going to be destroyed. How in the world in that amusing in any way? No matter which side is telling the actual truth, this is not an amusing situation. If anything, this should be a call to the community to take care of one another if something like this is happening in your respective servers, discords, FCs, websites, real life, etc. The article is linked to FFXIV, yes, but things like this happen more than they should in real life. There’s nothing in a situation like this that deserves somebody laughing at victims in it.

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Originally Posted by Zale

Want to know how to avoid sexual harassment? You'd be surprised to know that telling someone to fuck off and blocking them shortly after comes in handy. Don't give them time to retort or sweeten you into making you stay. It's the internet. They can't do anything to you. Don't know why it's so hard.

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Not everyone is capable of being able to say no in the first place, especially if the person comes to you during a time when you (general) need emotional support and don't necessarily recognize this. It's easy to say that this is what these folks should have done when looking at this situation from the outside, but the truth is, we aren't in their exact shoes at the exact time that this happened. A running theme that I noticed with the story is that a lot of the victims were in a fragile state of mind at a time when they needed that emotional crutch.

There are sick people out there who will prey on that.

It's not so easy to break out once the abuser has sunk their claws in someone during a very emotional period of time. It's far more worse when it occurs in real life, when you physically see this abuser. Trust me...breaking free and getting out of a situation like this is harder than you would think.

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Originally Posted by Zale

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Except it spilled over into real life, which is outlined pretty clearly in the article?

https://www.pcgamer.com/prominent-fi...a-dozen-women/

@zale Assuming that this story is 100% true, did it not occur to you that perhaps they probably do know each other's real names and maybe some history? It's clear in at least one of the stories that there were pictures exchanged. This goes beyond gaming. Should pictures have been exchanged? Probably not. But hindsight exists because you can't take it back.

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Originally Posted by Zale

Want to know how to avoid sexual harassment? You'd be surprised to know that telling someone to fuck off and blocking them shortly after comes in handy. Don't give them time to retort or sweeten you into making you stay. It's the internet. They can't do anything to you. Don't know why it's so hard.

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Spoken like someone who has little to no understanding how emotional abuse works. People like this don't show their hand immediately. They befriend you, make you believe their own sob stories. Imagine a good friend of yours suddenly being a jerk; not overly aggressive at first, just moody and combative. Would it still be as easy to cut ties instantly? You seem to still be living in the last decade where online relationships, be they friendships or romance are somehow less impactful than real life ones.

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Originally Posted by Zale

Well, I mean... was still her decision to live with him in the first place after being emotionally abused lol. Not much else to it broski. I feel for her, but a lot of it could've been prevented.

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Emotional abuse is often hard to see when you're in the thick of it. It took a family member actively walking out on his wife for her to finally clear through the fog and start seeing what we all could see plain as day. That same wife still refuses to see another family member as abusive in spite of being hit, emotional abused on the weekly over the phone, and having wine bottles thrown at them when they're in contact. It's /not/ that simple to get out of it, and while I very much applaud you for escaping your own abuser, you really have no right to decide what other people can and cannot take either. Everyone is different and everyone has different thresholds that can be exploited. You can criticize them all you like, but at the end of the day they /aren't you/ and you /aren't them/.

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Originally Posted by Zale

You have no right to decide if I have any understanding of it or not. I was emotionally abused once and I learned from it instead of letting myself be a victim. And no, it would not. If you treat me like dogshit then you have no right to stay in my life anymore because I value my rights as I have stated before.

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The point Cass is making is that not everyone has such an easy time cutting people out of their lives. It's great that you have the confidence and determination to protect yourself, I am glad to hear it, but expecting everyone else to be able to handle situations that may be similar to yours in the same way is very narrow minded.

I find it horrible that people are finding that one article funny or say that people should just get over this. This stuff does not happen over night. People that want to take advantage of you will take their time to build trust and in the case of that article that person even searched for people that are in a bad situation or suffer from depression. They are masterful in creating a situation were you are depentant on them and most of those seem to be really nice and charming. And then you make one mistake like telling them too much and suddenly its getting harder to just let go...and its even worse since you will have people that are just seeing this as creating drama or that its overblown which will put the victim in an even worse place.

Its always easy to say that people can just end it when you have enough experience or are emotional stable right now.

Edit: I thankfully dont have experience with sexual harassment but I did have someone in my old FC that tried to turn people against me with lies (even after that player left the FC) because I was not amused by his behaviour. If you have never been in such a situation you cant really know how it feels. If you are not playing with rl friends its really easy (sadly) to turn people against each other without having direct contact to that person. So what does blacklist do if they go around and slander your name? If they have friends that try to befriend you on their behalf and then tear you down? Thankfully I am a private person thus the player knew nothing about me in RL thus its was truly just centered in the game. But if you have someone as a very good friend for months, shared things with them and then they suddenly show their true face..well good luck by just black listing them.

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Originally Posted by Zale

I would rather be narrow minded than pretend I like someone who treats me horribly, just so he'll stay. That's my solidified opinion. Maybe before, when I was afraid of being alone. Talking to someone who doesn't feel the same way sucks etc. Cutting people out of your life is never easy, either. It goes away eventually, though. A few years later and they'll look back on it and be like "wow, can't believe that happened." I still tell myself that and it's been a long time now.

To each their own. I think some of the women were a bit wrong in regards to decision making but past is the past. It is time to move on from it because the guy is gone, and he left in the dumbest way possible.

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I think you may have misunderstood me. I'm not saying you're narrow minded for the way you've responded to abuse, I'm saying it's narrow minded to expect every other person who is abused to be able to respond the same way. There are always going to be varying circumstances/personalities and just because someone doesn't find it as easy as you do to cut ties with an abusive friend doesn't mean they in any way deserve what happened.

I understand that some of the culpability for these situations lands on the women involved for making poor choices but it sounds like this guy did everything he could to limit their ability to move away from him. He solicited nude photos and videos to use as blackmail ffs! I get that they made the dcision to give him those things and it was clearly a bad decision on their part bht as much as I may talk about protecting yourself and cutting abusive people out of your life if I was faced with the idea of someone sharing those sorts of photos of me online (especially if they could tie them to my irl identity) it would definitely give me pause at least.

The final note is that he isn't gone. Even if he caves to pressure and deletes his character there is nothing stopping him from making a new one somewhere else and continuing the same pattern. I'm sure he isn't even the only person to behave like this in the game. Rather than "move on" I hope this story gets exposure for a long time if only to serve to further drive home the idea of smart choices and caution with new relationships. Its a good message to send.

I was actually worried about getting too deep into MMOs for the longest time because of an incident in an MMO when I was lured and baited into ERP when I was twelve, which, being twelve, I was naively and blissfully unaware of. My gut instinct was to run away, and I listened to it, but the fact remains that it's easy to prey on the vulnerable (something a few of the victims brought up in the article), doubly so over a screen, where you can easily hide or build a different identity. Due to the nature of MMOs, and other online games, there's not much you can do to prevent harassment other than to block the aggressor, report to the GMs, share your story, and hope for the best.

Mercifully, I have not personally experienced harassment since starting FFXIV, although I have seen a (male) friend chased off-server, and later off-game by a (female) stalker.

Its weird when i read about this cause im too much of a loner so people would never care enough to harrass me sexually.
It would be different maybe in some other places. But this game dont make social interaction easy unless you look for it. So i understand when people say this is no a big deal since it can be pretty impersonal sometimes.
But if it comes to the point where a relationship is developed and you give real life info...then it becomes very dangerous.
This is no a reason no to trust anyone ever again. We cant blame the victim for having "poor judgement" when choosing friends. But you have to be very careful

Also its kinda hypocrite how people pretend they would never masturbate or sext with someone they met in game. Yes, it can be stupid. But everyone want to feel loved and desired. And everyone feel horny.
You can do something that can affect your real life and ruin your reputation. And dont say "I will never do this" cause its more easy than you think

Just a question: Has this case been sent to the proper authorities? Is there a lawsuit against the abuser so a court of law can see the case and determine the proper judgement? If it only stays in a game news article and the case not handled by the authorities, then in my opinion, it will do little to nothing in stoping this behavior.

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Originally Posted by Calibur097

Just a question: Has this case been sent to the proper authorities? Is there a lawsuit against the abuser so a court of law can see the case and determine the proper judgement? If it only stays in a game news article and the case not handled by the authorities, then in my opinion, it will do little to nothing in stoping this behavior.

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That's debatable and really up to the particular case. Oftentimes the culprit won't receive an appropriate sentence because maybe he's white, from a good upbringing, a guy to start off with, has some sob story in his past, straight A college student or what not... and the fact this was all done over the internet likely won't help.
Public shaming and the tarnishing of one's reputation are much more effective forms of punishment when it comes to that sort of thing, even if I agree that not all cases are such cut and dry when it comes to evidence like this case.

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Originally Posted by Calibur097

Just a question: Has this case been sent to the proper authorities? Is there a lawsuit against the abuser so a court of law can see the case and determine the proper judgement? If it only stays in a game news article and the case not handled by the authorities, then in my opinion, it will do little to nothing in stoping this behavior.

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I am not 100% sure but I did read on the reddit thread that maybe some of them are planning to go to a law court with this. In the end this might not be so easy depending on the evidence, the costs and so on. But maybe if they can all get together they might stand a chance.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I am not 100% sure but I did read on the reddit thread that maybe some of them are planning to go to a law court with this. In the end this might not be so easy depending on the evidence, the costs and so on. But maybe if they can all get together they might stand a chance.

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There's not enough evidence and a lawyer would never take up the case. Physical hard evidence is needed. Not chat logs from a discord.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

There's not enough evidence and a lawyer would never take up the case.

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1. Are you a lawyer?
2. The article obviously hasn't shown everything there is. You can't tell based on that alone that there isn't enough.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

1. Are you a lawyer?
2. The article obviously hasn't shown everything there is. You can't tell based on that alone that there isn't enough.

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Article only showed a lot of water and nothing else with almost zero evidences to even believe all this drama.

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Originally Posted by DDkiki

Article only showed a lot of water and nothing else with almost zero evidences to even believe all this drama.

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The article showed the guy admitting to being an emotional abuser of a predator but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

The article showed the guy admitting to being an emotional abuser of a predator but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Not to mention given the fact that some of the accusers have decided to go forward with a case, they probably were advised by whatever lawyer they've retained not to show everything on the net. We know that the situation broke into the real world so there's bound to be phone logs as well.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

The article showed the guy admitting to being an emotional abuser of a predator but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Ehh, no? He clearly denies it.

"I'd very much like to make it clear that I never abused anyone"

"Even though I vehemently deny 'abusing' anyone."

Starting to think some people here have a personal interest in NOT dealing with this issue...

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Starting to think some people here have a personal interest in NOT dealing with this issue...

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Pretty useless comment when you made the OP asking people for their opinions. People have different views. You of all people should realize this when you made the thread.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Pretty useless comment when you made the OP asking people for their opinions. People have different views. You of all people should realize this when you made the thread.

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Not useless... pointing out an observation on behavior of certain members who have posted on this thread... it seems to me you are not only fine with this type of behavior but seem to revel in the misery that has come from it... which should make everyone very wary of you... perhaps it's ok for you to dismiss this type of behavior because you engage in the same activities... but that's just a theory based on your remarks...

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Not useless... pointing out an observation on behavior of certain members who have posted on this thread... it seems to me you are not only fine with this type of behavior but seem to revel in the misery that has come from it... which should make everyone very wary of you... perhaps it's ok for you to dismiss this type of behavior because you engage in the same activities... but that's just a theory based on your remarks...

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You are wrong.

I believe in innocent until proven guilty. The moment someone voices their opinion which may differ from your own, you resort to calling them a sexual harasser & someone who endorses such violence?

You're a real piece of work and have issues, "but that's just a theory based on your remarks... "

I was in a physically abusive situation once.

A was a pre-teen in school, i think maybe 10 to 11 years old at the time, and one of the teachers was a violent psycho who took chunks out of students arms with her ridiculously sharp fingernails, and managing to get away with it.

Imagine this situation, you are randomly assaulted by a schoolyard bully, who rains punches at you, then wrestles you to the ground and starts kicking you in the head while you are down.

Then once he's had his fill you drag yourself crying to a teacher...and the teacher takes the bully's side, telling you to "Stop whining you little [EXPLETIVE]" and that the bully has every right to do that, and when you try to point out how utterly ridiculous that is she digs her nails into your arm so hard that it draws blood and leaves large gaping wounds while screaming and spitting in your face about how you have no right to question her.

After this the teacher takes some sort of perverse interest in personally tormenting you, showing up every time you get beat up by the schoolyard bully to hurt you further.

School was not a good time for me.
It may not have been in any way sexual, but it definitely was abusive, and not something that could be easily gotten away from.

I swear, if anyone tries to tell me that the whole thing was my own fault i am going to be very mad...

At least the psycho teacher got what was coming to her in the end...unlike a lot of others of her ilk
Even if that comeuppance took waaaaaaay to long.

Point is, just "Walking away" may not actually be an option.
I couldn't just "Stop coming to school" so there was no escape from miss psycho.
And if they are an authority figure? Ooooh boy, in that case even trying to report them won't do it, who's going to believe the pre-teen over the grown adult?
And the physical evidence in the form of injuries inflicted? Dismissed out of hand, because the teacher says she had nothing to do with it so it must be true.

Fortunately there turned out to be limits to how much BS the principal was willing to swallow and she eventually got taken down, but the pain inflicted in the meantime...yeesh

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Starting to think some people here have a personal interest in NOT dealing with this issue...

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It's just online. It's honestly a non-issue. If you gave nudes to someone online and were then blackmailed I mean... it sucks but ultimately it is your fault. You can't really be sexually harassed in a game, especially when you as a player have the tools to stop it, as well as a pretty supportive GM staff willing to assist.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

It's just online. It's honestly a non-issue. If you gave nudes to someone online and were then blackmailed I mean... it sucks but ultimately it is your fault. You can't really be sexually harassed in a game, especially when you as a player have the tools to stop it, as well as a pretty supportive GM staff willing to assist.

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So we can't expect blackmailing to be morally wrong when it's done online? It's the victims fault?

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Originally Posted by Gizensha

So we can't expect blackmailing to be morally wrong when it's done online? It's the victims fault?

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It's wrong, I never said it wasn't, but this is also just online. There are plenty of tools to deal with it. Letting it go on for months, even years, is completely their fault. This is ultimately just a game and this is the internet.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

This is ultimately just a game and this is the internet.

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I honestly don't understand this part. Won't ethics or laws apply on internet in your opinion? Why?

Edit: Also the threshold to report is quite high on abuse cases. I'm not sure what the time has to do with anything?

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

It's wrong, I never said it wasn't, but this is also just online. There are plenty of tools to deal with it. Letting it go on for months, even years, is completely their fault. This is ultimately just a game and this is the internet.

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Rubiss,for once i 100% agree with you. Thanks for your input. To all of you posting about RL harassment, take note of what Rubiss said: This is way different. RL is much more serious, this is online....blist...logout....turn power of etc..

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

It's just online. It's honestly a non-issue. If you gave nudes to someone online and were then blackmailed I mean... it sucks but ultimately it is your fault. You can't really be sexually harassed in a game, especially when you as a player have the tools to stop it, as well as a pretty supportive GM staff willing to assist.

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Exactly.Yes it's still an issue, but way less serious,and very easy to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Abelfei

Rubiss,for once i 100% agree with you. Thanks for your input. To all of you posting about RL harassment, take note of what Rubiss said: This is way different. RL is much more serious, this is online....blist...logout....turn power of etc..

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Don't you think people on internet are real? Why is crime done on internet not real? This is getting really bizarre...

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Originally Posted by Abelfei

Rubiss,for once i 100% agree with you. Thanks for your input. To all of you posting about RL harassment, take note of what Rubiss said: This is way different. RL is much more serious, this is online....blist...logout....turn power of etc..

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So your solution to something like this is just stop playing?

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Originally Posted by Gizensha

Don't you think people on internet are real? Why is crime done on internet not real? This is getting really bizarre...

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This can't be conflated to real abuse in any way. You can block said person from contacting you. You can't do the same in real life. It's nowhere near as easy. As for the blackmail bits, yes that was wrong and possibly illegal (not educated enough in the law to fully say) but I don't think there needs to be a big movement over something that is ultimately a very minor issue. You have all the tools you can ask for to deal with this.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

This can't be conflated to real abuse in any way. You can block said person from contacting you. You can't do the same in real life. It's nowhere near as easy. As for the blackmail bits, yes that was wrong and possibly illegal (not educated enough in the law to fully say) but I don't think there needs to be a big movement over something that is ultimately a very minor issue. You have all the tools you can ask for to deal with this.

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And the part where is escalated into a real life incident? This didn't just stay confined to the net.