Just played Final Fantasy XI

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SilverObi

That was one of the neat things about XI's expansions and storylines. They were mostly standalone and could be taken in on their own merits and you wouldn't be missing much if you didn't complete or even start another. It's interesting to see how the devs here painted themselves into plot corners in gating off content by expansion and had to make clumsy efforts to not exclude new players when the ones for XI did it so right. Got the expansion? Great you can use the jobs that come with it and go to the new zones at your will.

---

Yess! This is one thing I always appreciated. The amusing side-effect of this is that the NPCs all treated you like a low-life when you started the next expansion since they weren't linked. I'm sure a modern game could find a way to put some checks in, and tweak dialogue depending on your progression with other story lines - but this definitely is not the case in XI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seig345

I don't think I ever even got into Chains of Promathia content, and yet for some reason I bought each new expansion as it came out. I just couldn't handle the endless waits to find a party or wrap my head around the prerequisites necessary to make myself more appealing for parties to invite me or the leadership aspect of starting my own. Meanwhile in FFXIV I've traipsed my way through each expansion, though I don't much mess with the raid scene.

And yet, I think I enjoyed existing in Vana'diel far more than my entire FFXIV experience. Heck, to be honest, I'm tempted to resume the little NPC party trip I was taking through Vana'diel a year or so ago... if I can just remember my login credentials, PlayOnline is the one part I'm only nostalgic about once I manage to log in. ;p

---

Promithia gave you access to sea, Zilart gave sky ... my favorite was WotG the best and if you did all 3 paths had decent rewards. Over all all the expansions gave you access to new raid type content. I loved all the stories...except the last one Adoulin -.-... However now you can get rare alter egos from clearing them.

I still play FFXI and loved their story line over all. Nothing beats that old feeling of t he hardships and grinds before FFXIV.

XIV isn't a bad game by any measure -- but it definitely doesn't have the longevity of FFXI. While XI gave players a world they could live in, XIV is better for appointment gaming.

The folks in my static have been playing since launch. Nowadays, though, we only play once a week, and most of us stopped caring about capping out our iLevels months ago. Several of us have talked about quitting, and we're all (not too optimistically) hoping that Eureka is a breath of fresh air.

This game is ultimately suffering from some of the same problems as Destiny 2 and several other titles. No matter how polished the gameplay is, the developers have done a terrible job at giving people reasons to play. Repacking old content into a new laundry list just doesn't work anymore.

Another area where XI beats the pants off of XIV is that this game offers extremely little content for FCs and linkshells. XIV's entire endgame scene is optimized for statics of eight people. XI, on the other hand, had things like Dynamis, Einherjar, Limbus, Sky, Salvage, etc. where groups of all abilities and sizes could pursue long-term goals without one person ruining it by not having memorized a complex script.

My static mates and I all feel the same way about this: We WANT to love Eorzea. We WANT to spend more time in this beautiful world that's been made for us.

We just don't have any reasons to.

And, as a result, we're starting to pick up/go back to other games like WoW, GW2, Diablo 3 or just single-player titles. I'm pretty sure some of us will quit XIV at the end of the Stormblood cycle unless the development team realizes some big changes are necessary. I haven't made up my mind yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thayos

XIV isn't a bad game by any measure -- but it definitely doesn't have the longevity of FFXI. ....

And, as a result, we're starting to pick up/go back to other games like WoW, GW2, Diablo 3 or just single-player titles. I'm pretty sure some of us will quit XIV at the end of the Stormblood cycle unless the development team realizes some big changes are necessary. I haven't made up my mind yet.

---

I agree with you,I am loyal fan since beta and the only thing really keeping me here is the achievements...I look back and recall spending my vacation time, calling in sick, just to play FFXI. The only time I do it now is for a patch that grabs my attention, such as the incoming one come on Kefka hell yeah, or new expansion. I miss the old hardships and play FFXI while I'm waiting for queue or maintenance. Sadly unlike FFXI the relics here are really held back in terms of updates. Hoping Eureka makes things more interesting. So far the Death penalty seems to be coming back there so should make things interesting. Nothing says put attention to mechanics like a level down. Guess Dissidia NT will have to do as well :P

My biggest concern at the moment is that WoW is finally starting to pump out content patches at a rate that roughly matches FFXIV's own. I'll put aside my distaste for the fact that it did not do so back when I was actually invested in WoW a few years ago.

FFXIV's content patches, however, offer up content that is mostly irrelevant the moment it is completed. The new, lasting, content is usually delayed by a month after a patch goes live - as is the case with Rival Wings and Eureka.

I so desperately want more content that remains relevant for more than a few weeks or a single patch. POTD hit all the right notes in that regard...and I hope Eureka does as well...but the developers seem very reluctant to truly try out new things.

Quote:

---

FFXIV's content patches, however, offer up content that is mostly irrelevant the moment it is completed. The new, lasting, content is usually delayed by a month after a patch goes live - as is the case with Rival Wings and Eureka.

---

Yes, that's a huge problem, especially for the vast majority of XIV players who don't care about hardcore savage/ultimate/whatever raiding. My static is solidly midcore, which means we might sometimes tackle current-tier extreme primals, but never the hardest or most current raids. So, for us, there is literally no reason to grind the same dungeons for gear we don't need -- hence why most of us stopped even collecting tomes long ago. We just don't care.

Now, if we had some other form of endgame that could be tackled in a group, similar to how large, dynamic groups would tackle limbus or dynamis? Yes, then we'd have more reasons to gear up or level new jobs -- at least we'd be contributing to the good of the group at endgame. As it stands, though, there's just no reason to care, which means there is no reason to grind mind-numbing easy content.

And when you take away the super easy content, this game doesn't have much meat on its bones.

Took a break from XIV to return to XI a couple of years ago. Now I come back to XIV for patch day, or a week for the xpac, but find it hard to stay. Coming up to 4.2, am trying to get back into XIV with friends so we can play the upcoming endgame challenges, but... it's so dull.

On my PC next to me runs XI - not XI from 2004 or 2009 or 2012, but XI from 2018. It's updated monthly with content. Of course, there's been no budget for new zones or monsters since 2015, but we do get new reward systems, tougher challenges at endgame, more gear which isn't just better stats than the last (aside from upgraded gear) and can be used in the different situations presented. The game is *deep*, and that's not just because it's had 16 years compared to XIV's 8, but because of the base design and the producers' ethic.

XIV started off so well, using newer tech to create a game that XI could never be. It's story was great and it was dangerous. With ARR everything got dumbed down, your hand was held, and DF meant that you could ignore all other players if you chose to for everything except a single series of fights per patch. I accepted that because 1.0 was financial ruin and subscriptions were needed, so if we could be part of a slicker, more beautiful version of everything that was already out there, then fine (and I love XIV's UI to bits).

But then 3.0 came and it was the same again in a different skin. We got a lot of extra fluff, but gear continued to be discarded entirely each patch - a side-effect of a huge lack of character stats and gear being able to influence individual abilities. Patches spread out, and story/quest content in them was reduced to 2hrs play at most every four months (by quest, not meaning relic grind here).

4.0 was the final straw. For those two weeks, it was a fantastic ride. Loved the zones, loved the music, loved the characters, loved the story, loved the trials and the raid. But then... left with repetition. Repetition in the knowledge that it would all go up in flames come 4.1, come 4.2... etc.

I'm not going to lie; knowing I get to fight Byakko, to ride the Phantom Train, excites me a little because it feels like it's going to be fun. But then on week 2 when I have to do it again? Week 3? I'm worried Eureka will be another Palace of the Dead or PvP - a complete achievement system outside your character than lands a new piece of gear that stays relevant for one patch like everything else. And something you have to play so often that it destroys the very will to play it.

So I turn back to FFXI. I've got 22 jobs to choose from - levelling to cap only takes a few days. Gearing up solo via dozens of different types of content, a few weeks. Bringing the job to a group to work on final upgrades, whilst perhaps obtaining extra pieces for that job and others is broad and healthy progression. Helping out the new and returning players that arrive in Vana'diel every day (even on a smaller server like Shiva) is renewing and forging new bonds.

Overall FFXI *was* the best of the two, and then it wasn't. Then FFXIV was the better of the two for a long time, but it slipped a couple of years ago. FFXI has maintained integrity since its (presumably) final form in 2015, whereas FFXIV has stagnated with resources being spent on fixing a housing mess that should never have happened, mini-games requiring whole new systems with lastability measured in hours, dozens of sets of armour which the playerbase wear for a fortnight and then discard forever, (I'm not gonna say PvP...) PvP, and not enough lore, character development, exciting plots or frequent updates.

Sorry for so much rambling. I hope FFXIV gets better again soon. I'll stay subbed to both, as always^^

Mjo, your post ALMOST makes me want to leave XIV and resub to XI, ha! You make a great point about XIV surpassing XI for awhile, but now perhaps falling behind again.

XIV would probably be a better game for a brand-new player choosing between the two. It's newer, prettier, easier and doesn't require a social group to make great progress.

XIV just makes it way too easy to reach the mountaintop. I played XI religiously for 10+ years and never even came close to the summit. In XIV, you can reach it every patch cycle by grinding different versions of "Baby's First Dungeon." For most people, it's only a matter of time before the repetition becomes nonsensical.

Again, it's kind of the same problem I have with Destiny 2. It was easy hitting the level cap, and all there is to do at endgame are a couple of raids -- so for weeks, I'd just log on and do the requisite challenges to get rare "powerful" gear. In just an hour or two, I'd run a handful of public events and rack up a certain amount of experience, and boom -- logged out until the next week and repeated the process. Came to my senses a few weeks ago and haven't felt the need to log in since. (I'm regretting my decision to pay for the first two expansions upfront.)

This is where I feel like FFXIV is at. Most people don't have any reason to log in more than once per week, if even that. And after awhile, one must do the math -- if I pay $10/month (legacy fee), then is it worth staying subbed for like six hours of game time? I'm paying almost $2 per hour to play! Yeah, it's cheap, but is that logical?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mjollnir

XIV started off so well, using newer tech to create a game that XI could never be. It's story was great and it was dangerous. With ARR everything got dumbed down, your hand was held

---

this sentiment, expressed without even the faintest shred of irony or self-awareness, is always truly incredible to see, like a fleeting glimpse of a rare majestic beast in the wilderness.

Treasure it. I am overcome with emotion

...just, probably not the emotion intended.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

snip

---

again all I hear is...

"I shouldn't have to git gud or try, everything needs to be made for and cater exclusively to me, me me me me me"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mjollnir

This

---

Let me extend this.

As someone who just rolled another char on a different server outta sheer boredom, the msq is mind numbingly boring and monotonous as all get out. Not to mention the fetch quests, and more fetch quests and yes even more fetch quests.

But you go back and reroll a char on XI and the story still holds up. Its still exciting to re-experience. The world....feels alive and truly in danger. Sure it can be long winded in parts but damn does it tell a good story overall. From the expac main quests, to the mini expacs and the little side stories you come across. You don't just bust through them to get them done. You experience them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vaer

In XIV you can't get to max level without going through the expansion so it's kind of a weird comparison.

---

What would stop you from doing so?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Took a break from XIV to return to XI a couple of years ago. Now I come back to XIV for patch day, or a week for the xpac, but find it hard to stay. Coming up to 4.2, am trying to get back into XIV with friends so we can play the upcoming endgame challenges, but... it's so dull.

On my PC next to me runs XI - not XI from 2004 or 2009 or 2012, but XI from 2018. It's updated monthly with content. Of course, there's been no budget for new zones or monsters since 2015, but we do get new reward systems, tougher challenges at endgame, more gear which isn't just better stats than the last (aside from upgraded gear) and can be used in the different situations presented. The game is *deep*, and that's not just because it's had 16 years compared to XIV's 8, but because of the base design and the producers' ethic.

---

If you think FFXIV has gotten dull and repetitive, that's a perfectly valid complaint. I don't really feel that way myself, but I understand it. But if FFXIV does need to evolve, it most certainly does not need to evolve into FFXI. That's the problem I have with this line of thought, and I'll give a few specific reasons why.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mjollnir

XIV started off so well, using newer tech to create a game that XI could never be. It's story was great and it was dangerous. With ARR everything got dumbed down, your hand was held, and DF meant that you could ignore all other players if you chose to for everything except a single series of fights per patch. I accepted that because 1.0 was financial ruin and subscriptions were needed, so if we could be part of a slicker, more beautiful version of everything that was already out there, then fine (and I love XIV's UI to bits).

---

Most of FFXI was not "dangerous." It would be, if Sneak, Invisible, and the items that granted them didn't exist. But I never saw anyone actually run through zones without them, except on low-level runs to get to a different starting city. The fact that everyone used Sneak and Invis to go literally anywhere dangerous is because danger is not actually fun. Also not fun: having to waste items or constantly recast spells to move. Also not fun: making one mistake and losing an hour or more of travel since mobs would literally never stop chasing you. Or getting to the zone line and being killed anyway because of the free hits they got when you were loading. What part of any of that makes the game better? It makes it slower and more frustrating.

It's true that the duty finder means you could ignore all other players, which in turn means that far more players can play the game. Making the game an exclusive club might be fun for the people in the club, but it's not a good financial strategy. It's not going to happen.

Also not for nothing, but 1.0 failed because it was bad. And I loved 1.0. The original crafting system seemed to be designed specifically for my exact personality. But if a game only appeals to a small handful of players, it is a failure. And 1.0 was a failure. Also its story barely existed, so I'm not really sure what made it "great."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mjollnir

But then 3.0 came and it was the same again in a different skin. We got a lot of extra fluff, but gear continued to be discarded entirely each patch - a side-effect of a huge lack of character stats and gear being able to influence individual abilities. Patches spread out, and story/quest content in them was reduced to 2hrs play at most every four months (by quest, not meaning relic grind here).

4.0 was the final straw. For those two weeks, it was a fantastic ride. Loved the zones, loved the music, loved the characters, loved the story, loved the trials and the raid. But then... left with repetition. Repetition in the knowledge that it would all go up in flames come 4.1, come 4.2... etc.

---

Vertical leveling isn't going anywhere. Horizontal leveling is hostile to new players. You may love going back three expansions and grinding out one fight over and over to get a particular drop that gives a 2% advantage and is thus absolutely required for some totally unrelated content due to a coincidental use of some weird, unique ability, but most people don't. All they hear is "you can't do this content unless you do this other content." And in FFXI that probably meant doing it yourself. Or calling your friend at 2 AM to get his help killing Argus in your twelfth unsuccessful attempt to get whatever he dropped (peacock charm?).

And as a reminder, if you don't have to do all that, then horizontal leveling is meaningless. Literally the only appeal it has is keeping old gear relevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mjollnir

I'm not going to lie; knowing I get to fight Byakko, to ride the Phantom Train, excites me a little because it feels like it's going to be fun. But then on week 2 when I have to do it again? Week 3? I'm worried Eureka will be another Palace of the Dead or PvP - a complete achievement system outside your character than lands a new piece of gear that stays relevant for one patch like everything else. And something you have to play so often that it destroys the very will to play it.

So I turn back to FFXI. I've got 22 jobs to choose from - levelling to cap only takes a few days. Gearing up solo via dozens of different types of content, a few weeks. Bringing the job to a group to work on final upgrades, whilst perhaps obtaining extra pieces for that job and others is broad and healthy progression. Helping out the new and returning players that arrive in Vana'diel every day (even on a smaller server like Shiva) is renewing and forging new bonds.

---

I don't understand this. You don't want to continuously replay well-designed instanced dungeons and trials, but you're perfectly willing to grind exp, not to mention JP if you're actually doing any hard content, on 22 jobs? You know what I spend my time doing in FFXIV? I level up all 26 classes to max level, to experience the unique story that every single one of them has. (Actually there are 27 class/job storylines, thanks to Scholar.) FFXI's job-specific stories end with AF. The last 50 levels, and all of your job points, are a mindless grind with no content payoff. But that's less boring than having to run the same dungeons for four months at a time until you get brand new ones? I confess I can't understand that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Overall FFXI *was* the best of the two, and then it wasn't. Then FFXIV was the better of the two for a long time, but it slipped a couple of years ago. FFXI has maintained integrity since its (presumably) final form in 2015, whereas FFXIV has stagnated with resources being spent on fixing a housing mess that should never have happened, mini-games requiring whole new systems with lastability measured in hours, dozens of sets of armour which the playerbase wear for a fortnight and then discard forever, (I'm not gonna say PvP...) PvP, and not enough lore, character development, exciting plots or frequent updates.

Sorry for so much rambling. I hope FFXIV gets better again soon. I'll stay subbed to both, as always^^

---

Which game has better plots is a matter of opinion, but FFXIV having "not enough lore"? It has as much as FFXI did, if not far more. There are many, many more story quests with much, much more dialogue. There are plenty of side quests, and none of them require jumping through incredibly annoying hoops to finish. I got every map in FFXI before they made that easy, I know. Character development? FFXIV has been developing its main cast since 1.0, FFXI discards almost the entirety of the cast outside of your character between expansions, since they aren't connected and therefore they can make no assumptions about what you've done before. FFXIV is updated more frequently than FFXI ever was, and don't act like adding a few new fights and the 400th different currency compares to actual new assets and content. I've been very impressed at FFXI's end-of-life update cycle, but come on now.

It's not even particularly fair to compare FFXI now to FFXIV, because FFXI is only playable now because they've made it more like FFXIV. Trusts mean you can do all the content up to endgame solo. The ridiculous network of travel options make getting places easy. All the reward systems make it very easy to gear up at any level. This is nothing like what the FFXI experience actually was. Right now, FFXI is nothing but endgame, because only hardcore players are still playing. Making FFXIV for the hardcore only is a terrible idea that would kill the game.

I love that people still play FFXI. The best part is, it's still running! If you want that game, play it. Keep its archaic systems out of FFXIV, though.

I'm pretty new to Final Fantasy XI just started playing late 2015 and I love it. My only regret is not being able to play it in its prime because when I was little my parents would have had to pay a sub fee and they were put off by that so I had to settle with Final Fantasy X to keep me going.

Lovely game and the graphics still look great even today.

I played ffxi free trial for a week ,three months ago, and it was so much fun getting lost and literally chasing me all over the zone without losing aggro from a certain feet and getting killed. Man I felt hopeless and it was a such a good feeling. I wish I could have played ffxi in it's prime but I didn't have the money or funds to get internet and a ps2 because it was expensive at the time.




I want to be a dancer

I would love playing some FFXI but don't wanna drag out 360 and my PC hates me right now. Would love a PS4 version.

FFXI in its prime was amazing. It's still decent now, but not at all friendly to new players.

FFXIV is good too, but whether you play now (prime years) or like five years later really won't matter, assuming the formula doesn't change. In fact, you could disappear for five years, come back and be caught up in a month! That's the blessing and the curse of XIV. It's a great appointment game that doesn't require much work.

I actually prefer XIV these days because I'm busier and have less time. But that doesn't change the fact that after a couple of expansion cycles this game gets downright boring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krotoan

Unfortunately what stands out is the last day I played. I spent 3 hours waiting for a leveling party in Juno, (Jeuno?) mostly because I was an undesireable job/race combo of Galka Dark knight and when I finally got a party we wiped twice almost immediately to a caterpillar and someone training the NM in the area to us (mushushu I think). I de-leveled, and could no longer wear all of my AF and had to drop out. I stood there in my home city again.. thought long and hard about how much time I had essentially just wasted.. and quit. Never subbed again.

---

This is exactly why I quit for good. I could not find a party anymore, and there wasn't anyone to do content with me. Of course there were those Trust NPCs, but I failed to unlock them because no one would help me. Sure there are guides online, but still. Being all alone, it was the end for me playing any longer.

hate to tell you but a couple months after the final content update, support for consoles went away. However, because you have a account on xbox 360, you can install the game on PC after obtaining from anywhere and login with your old credentials-provided your sub for FFXI is paid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

This is exactly why I quit for good. I could not find a party anymore, and there wasn't anyone to do content with me. Of course there were those Trust NPCs, but I failed to unlock them because no one would help me. Sure there are guides online, but still. Being all alone, it was the end for me playing any longer.

---

Trust NPC's didn't exist when I quit. It was party or nothing, when you found a good party you kept going till you actually hurt or were starving because god knew when you'd find a good party again. ..uphill.. in the snow... both ways =] I'm such a fogey. Oh well. It was fun when I got to adventure, but the leveling grind and absolute dependence on synergistic parties was not for me at the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mahri

this sentiment, expressed without even the faintest shred of irony or self-awareness, is always truly incredible to see, like a fleeting glimpse of a rare majestic beast in the wilderness.

Treasure it. I am overcome with emotion

...just, probably not the emotion intended.

---

Haha you did a funny sarcasm! (I think that's what you were shooting for, right?) I'm objectively saying that 1.0 used better servers, better coding and had better graphics than XI. Also, that 1.0 had a fantastic storyline and was full of open-world mobs that were impossible to solo, so when exploring, you felt a sense of danger - it was a challenge to get to all of the aetheryte gates and get the associated achievement. Its flaws were many and thoroughly discussed elsewhere, but these were two of the positive things FFXIV lost when ARR was released. I'm not complaining (I've enjoyed most of my ARR-SB experience and know if it hadn't been redesigned it would not exist at all), just stating it for context in regards my perspective on the current position between the two games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

But if FFXIV does need to evolve, it most certainly does not need to evolve into FFXI.

---

I couldn't agree more. I've no desire to play the same thing twice. But just adding horizontal gear progression doesn't turn it into FFXI any more than having the five ARR races and three starting cities. Ideally, a monthly MSQ update and smattering of quests rather than having to wait four months and having it all done in two hours. There are many ways FFXIV should evolve - following this same formula is what I'm finding so dull.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

Most of FFXI was not "dangerous."

---

I was referring to 1.0 with its overlevelled open-world mobs. Though in the pre-2010 FFXI, the danger was clear and present. Because XP took so long to get and was lost on death, you valued staying alive. Was it fun to lose XP? No. So you didn't. Play was cautious. You paid attention when Sneak/Invis was running out, desperately trying to find a break in the mobs to recast/reuse items. When the only place to do so was standing behind a 'Detect Sight' mob and you were hurriedly getting that recast in place before it turned around, the adrenaline was real. Battlefields weren't a matter of throwing yourselves at it until you won or committing a dance you'd watched on YouTube to memory, but about doing your research and then thinking on your feet and reacting, because you couldn't just click the 'try again' button.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

It's true that the duty finder means you could ignore all other players, which in turn means that far more players can play the game. Making the game an exclusive club might be fun for the people in the club, but it's not a good financial strategy. It's not going to happen.

---

I agree that more people could play the game, and that was an absolute necessity after 1.0's failure. But you can't say "it's not going to happen", when this was exactly how all MMOs before 2011 did happen and for some it's still the reality. It could have been designed just that little bit better, to bond the community together, rather than damaging the opportunity to form those bonds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

Also not for nothing, but 1.0 failed because it was bad. And I loved 1.0. The original crafting system seemed to be designed specifically for my exact personality. But if a game only appeals to a small handful of players, it is a failure. And 1.0 was a failure. Also its story barely existed, so I'm not really sure what made it "great."

---

In a lot of places, it was bad. Mainly, in the important places (levelling, progression, combat, staying connected) that meant people wanted to play it! However, this was a AAA title from a huge publisher - there was an immense amount of good in there that is oft forgotten/overlooked or never experienced by people who didn't play the game/played it for a couple of sessions and threw it out. fwiw I agree with you on the crafting system (not sure anyone ever truly worked out what the different coloured lights meant and what you could do to influence them. Loved not having any clues as to recipe ingredients). I can't agree with you about the story barely existing. I don't know if Moose ever finished his detailed retrospective into 1.0's story, as I don't visit that site any more, but if he did, check it out and you'll see what I mean.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

And as a reminder, if you don't have to do all that, then horizontal leveling is meaningless. Literally the only appeal it has is keeping old gear relevant.

---

Disagree. What you're not taking into account is depth. You're talking from a FFXIV PoV where you have one set of gear for a job. In FFXI, you can begin with one, but build up many different situational sets, whether they be for weaponskills, nuking, healing, or even just learning new Blue Magic, or skilling up. They can be tailored to different enemy-types that have elemental/slashing/piercing/bludgeoning/magic resistance/vulnerability. They can be tailored to different content types where your objective isn't just to kill as quickly a possible, but to proc weaknesses or rack up Treasure Hunter to increase the likelihood that you don't have to come back to try again for that Peacock Charm. It's not required, no, but it cuts down time elsewhere and you get to do a ton of different content to get them, not just accept a Tome handout.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

I don't understand this. You don't want to continuously replay well-designed instanced dungeons and trials, but you're perfectly willing to grind exp, not to mention JP if you're actually doing any hard content, on 22 jobs? You know what I spend my time doing in FFXIV? I level up all 26 classes to max level, to experience the unique story that every single one of them has. (Actually there are 27 class/job storylines, thanks to Scholar.) FFXI's job-specific stories end with AF. The last 50 levels, and all of your job points, are a mindless grind with no content payoff. But that's less boring than having to run the same dungeons for four months at a time until you get brand new ones? I confess I can't understand that.

---

I don't know what you think is well-designed about the straight corridor that is every FFXIV dungeon. Once you've walked down it a couple of times, it's a completely forgettable experience, so much so that every time you're there it merges into one. And you're encouraged to roulette for tomes all week. Trials are fun whilst you can't do them, but again, once you've cleared it five times, you've cleared it a hundred times (which you're expected to do!).

FFXIV outshines FFXI on volume of content for job quests, sure. That's kind of specific though. FFXI outshines FFXIV on volume of content quests. They both have long and involved MSQs. The last 50 levels take two or three evenings at most and a some of that time is spent travelling to new locations. Job Points are the old XP parties of yore, but without the restrictions of only desiring certain jobs. You visit an open world location and choose your group's on camp, mobs and how long you want to play. Waiting 25min to run down a corridor for 20min with three random people who were silent and you'll never see again over and over is a real grind (levelling a DPS class via DF yesterday). Am I looking forward to taking the rest of my jobs up to 70? About as much as I was taking them up to 60 (crafters and gatherers aside, which I do enjoy, because levelling is completely different).

And once you have your job points? The content you've wanted to do, those pieces of gear you wanted to get, that you could do before, you can now do more quickly, with more survivability. You can challenge higher tiers for increased rewards. In FFXIV, you hit the iLv cap based on tomes availability/weekly drops and then what? Patiently wait to throw it all away in a couple of months' time. I can't understand *that*.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

There are many, many more story quests with much, much more dialogue.

---

If you're talking about when I zone into a new hub and there are a dozen '!' for which I speak to each person who gives me some 'lore' about why I need to kill X number of Y or collect X number of Z... That's not lore, that's fluff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

Character development? FFXIV has been developing its main cast since 1.0, FFXI discards almost the entirety of the cast outside of your character between expansions, since they aren't connected and therefore they can make no assumptions about what you've done before.

---

I don't see this, aside from the players' single main companion girl for that xpac, and FFXIV has its share of xpac-only characters too. NPCs persisted from Vanilla to RoZ to CoP, ToAU was almost stand-alone tho ofc the main antagonist is there again, WotG is all the same characters (but younger), Abyssea is alt-universe versions and an old friend, Seekers uses a few Vanilla characters, and Rhapsodies literally involves everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

FFXIV is updated more frequently than FFXI ever was, and don't act like adding a few new fights and the 400th different currency compares to actual new assets and content.

---

FFXIV is not updated more frequently than FFXI ever was before ARR's launch. FFXI was quarterly, FFXIV is three per year. Sure, since 2015 there have been no new graphics assets, so old mobs and gear are recoloured and restatted, and old zones are re-designed and re-released for new content, but whilst subscriber numbers are so low, that's expected.

You confused me for a sec because when you said 'a few new fights and the 400th different currency', I thought you were talking about the next FFXIV patch...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

It's not even particularly fair to compare FFXI now to FFXIV, because FFXI is only playable now because they've made it more like FFXIV. Trusts mean you can do all the content up to endgame solo. The ridiculous network of travel options make getting places easy. All the reward systems make it very easy to gear up at any level. This is nothing like what the FFXI experience actually was.

---

Not sure your point here. You're saying that I shouldn't compare FFXI now to FFXIV now because FFXI has got so much better since 2009? All those things are great QoL improvements. Gearing up is subjective. Right now, you can easily land level 99 and a set of iLv119 (the highest) gear, but can you successfully participate in endgame with that? Can you even solo clear the storyline with that? Nope. It's a good starting point to explore the rest of the game and, if you're a new player, it's still a long and full journey to get to that point.

edit: to clarify, there are a couple of dozen options at i119 for each job. Not all i119 pieces are created equal. You can start your endgame with an i119 set, but you still have an enormous amount to strive for. In FFXIV, you only have one or two options for the top iLv at that patch and there's not much in those options.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

Right now, FFXI is nothing but endgame, because only hardcore players are still playing.

---

Categorically not the case. There are more new/returning players than people playing endgame. The midcore casual players, progressing with gear upgrades and content vastly outnumber the hardcore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

Making FFXIV for the hardcore only is a terrible idea that would kill the game.

---

It would. Glad no-one's suggesting that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

If you want that game, play it. Keep its archaic systems out of FFXIV, though.

---

Such archaic systems as non-instanced dungeons, open world levelling, gear that can influence more than 20 stats, monsters that can kill you and instanced housing? If you're talking about FFXI c2009, ok, but FFXIV could learn a few good lessons from FFXI c2018.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

This is exactly why I quit for good. I could not find a party anymore, and there wasn't anyone to do content with me. Of course there were those Trust NPCs, but I failed to unlock them because no one would help me. Sure there are guides online, but still. Being all alone, it was the end for me playing any longer.

---

That's a sad experience. :( There are half a dozen Discord channels run by the different FFXI fansites where people will leap on any opportunity to help out. It's always difficult meeting new people in a new MMO, but FFXI has got an in-game Tutorial that guides you through your first steps with combat, levelling, unlocking Trusts and finding a Linkshell and Unity with other people in it to play and talk to. If the urge takes you again at any point, jump into FFXIclopedia's Discord text channel and I'll be happy to play with you and introduce you to some stellar folk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krotoan

Trust NPC's didn't exist when I quit. It was party or nothing, when you found a good party you kept going till you actually hurt or were starving because god knew when you'd find a good party again. ..uphill.. in the snow... both ways =] I'm such a fogey. Oh well. It was fun when I got to adventure, but the leveling grind and absolute dependence on synergistic parties was not for me at the end.

---

That game doesn't exist any more, but I can sympathise. I remember the frustration of trying to level Dark Knight myself (I only got as far as 37 before FFXIV was released). Nowadays there's a game with the same title and a lot of the same stuff, but it's extremely playable and fun. Give it a shot if you get bored of this one! ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

Most of FFXI was not "dangerous." It would be, if Sneak, Invisible, and the items that granted them didn't exist. But I never saw anyone actually run through zones without them, except on low-level runs to get to a different starting city. The fact that everyone used Sneak and Invis to go literally anywhere dangerous is because danger is not actually fun. Also not fun: having to waste items or constantly recast spells to move. Also not fun: making one mistake and losing an hour or more of travel since mobs would literally never stop chasing you. Or getting to the zone line and being killed anyway because of the free hits they got when you were loading. What part of any of that makes the game better? It makes it slower and more frustrating.

---

I disagree with this. Danger IS fun - when you have the capability to handle the danger. Don't mistake Sneak and Invis as tools that totally cancel the danger; if you were using them, more often than not it wasn't just to get through the danger until you reached a safe haven, but to get to some place in the dangerous zone, do something, and then move on. The "do something" part could be part of a quest, getting to a good fishing spot, mining or harvesting, so on and so forth - but while doing them, Sneak and Invis would not be an option (well, Invis, at any rate).

One of my fondest and most enduring memories from FFXI was mining in Ifrit's Cauldron as a level 30 Red Mage. The monsters there were all in the mid to upper 70's and would kill my Red Mage in two or three hits. Worse, many of them aggro'd to magic casting, and I preferred to use spellcasting to apply Sneak and Invis rather than items (I was there, after all, to make money, not spend it hand over fist by using these rather pricey items). Finding a mining point, waiting until the monsters' backs were turned, cranking out some ore, and then finding a safe place to reapply stealth spells - it was all quite thrilling. My sessions generally ended when I either ran out of pickaxes (a consumable, of sorts, in that game) or got unlucky and attracted a monster's attention (which meant either a swift death or, if I was on the ball, Chainspell -> Warp to barely escape alive).

I'm not one to White Knight FFXI. I'm aware of its flaws, and aware that I have a much greater tolerance for grinds than most (though even I couldn't stomach the grinds associated with Relic Weapons in that game, even post-Abyssea). Even so, the sense of adventure exploring areas where pretty much anything there could kill you if you weren't careful is something that I miss. Being able to thrive in those areas was truly a great feeling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Such archaic systems as non-instanced dungeons, open world levelling, gear that can influence more than 20 stats, monsters that can kill you and instanced housing? If you're talking about FFXI c2009, ok, but FFXIV could learn a few good lessons from FFXI c2018.

---

I would like to know how, specifically, you would implement non-instanced dungeons, open world leveling, more stats on gear, and dangerous monsters to FFXIV. (I can figure out the instanced housing myself ;))

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I disagree with this. Danger IS fun - when you have the capability to handle the danger. Don't mistake Sneak and Invis as tools that totally cancel the danger; if you were using them, more often than not it wasn't just to get through the danger until you reached a safe haven, but to get to some place in the dangerous zone, do something, and then move on. The "do something" part could be part of a quest, getting to a good fishing spot, mining or harvesting, so on and so forth - but while doing them, Sneak and Invis would not be an option (well, Invis, at any rate).

---

The point is that while you may find danger compelling, and even I have some very memorable stories about dangerous situations, having a dangerous open world drives many other people away from the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I disagree with this. Danger IS fun - when you have the capability to handle the danger. Don't mistake Sneak and Invis as tools that totally cancel the danger;....

---

With the exception of true sigh or true sound mobs -.-;; I remember starting out and sneaking to Jeuno with out tools lol that was soo much fun. Over all most were dangerous never the less unless you were high level. So compare to FFXIV 1.0 now it really does not have a danger level that even compares to FFXI. Although with the implementation of monstrosity it has made it fun picking on players from time to time :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

I would like to know how, specifically, you would implement non-instanced dungeons, open world leveling, more stats on gear, and dangerous monsters to FFXIV. (I can figure out the instanced housing myself ;))

---

Hmmm did you happen to play FFXIV when it was v1.0? To give you an example, outside of cities Ul'dah for example there was an area were mobs were level 80. Pretty much that was open world leveling and need a strong party top take them down. SE deem it too hard, system was a bit too complicated, people really saw it as a grind. Very similar to FFXI , you even had stock for range weapons, hence were realm reborn came into play to make it more player friendly. Now from what I can see the only real dangerous monsters are considered hunts and fates outside.

As for gear; hopefully SE does something in terms of Relic gear enhancements similar to old FFXI. I would loved that. Hated how most looked but loved the concept. Raid items , seals, old versions needed, dynamis, ect.

Ahh! FFXI made some amazing moments and memories. The times where you walked around where enemies could actually kill you like in a older FF game, strategy upon fights, handling a lot of trash mob that could aggro during fight. 18 man full alliance group where people walked and escorted each other for main story quests, when we had fun talking while doing it. Those moments you took the airship to al kazam and waited for a party or simply got asked from jeuno and had to travel by airship was amazing. Valkrum dunes the place I didn't even know existed till someone told me, those times where socializing was great, not saying FF14 is bad at it, but I feel the community was a bit more closer back then. Linkshell that you had for years to do events with etc. Great memories!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Hmmm did you happen to play FFXIV when it was v1.0? To give you an example, outside of cities Ul'dah for example there was an area were mobs were level 80. Pretty much that was open world leveling and need a strong party top take them down. SE deem it too hard, system was a bit too complicated, people really saw it as a grind. Very similar to FFXI , you even had stock for range weapons, hence were realm reborn came into play to make it more player friendly. Now from what I can see the only real dangerous monsters are considered hunts and fates outside.

As for gear; hopefully SE does something in terms of Relic gear enhancements similar to old FFXI. I would loved that. Hated how most looked but loved the concept. Raid items , seals, old versions needed, dynamis, ect.

---

Did you play 1.0? Because yes, I did, and that is not at all how things worked. Level 80 and above mobs were indeed present, but no size of party could or did kill them. They would one-shot anyone at any level. The only way you got to aetherytes beyond these mobs was to avoid them, and in the cases where they were located in tight spaces (mostly in the shroud but also in what is now Outer La Noscea, among other places) you'd get past them by having a group too large for the mobs to kill everyone before some people got through. In case it wasn't clear, none of this was remotely compelling content.

Now what I suspect you're referring to was the presence of aggressive level 20-ish antlings in Thanalan. And they were a pain, because they were located among otherwise low-level mobs between low-level aetheryte camps, and served to kill anyone who wasn't paying close attention when traveling. The funny thing is, these antlings were actually more dangerous than anything in FFXI, because while FFXI did have aggressive and slightly higher-level mobs in low-level zones (typically the beastmen), they were at least in the general level range of the rest of the zone, not 10 or more levels above them. A solo player in FFXI could call for help and maybe survive a goblin attack, but antlings would tear through any number of level 12 characters in FFXIV.

So why was any of this good? People complained about it, and it was rightly removed. Because people hated it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wizisi2k

hate to tell you but a couple months after the final content update, support for consoles went away. However, because you have a account on xbox 360, you can install the game on PC after obtaining from anywhere and login with your old credentials-provided your sub for FFXI is paid.

---

Interesting, need to get pc worked ng then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

Did you ....
So why was any of this good? People complained about it, and it was rightly removed. Because people hated it.

---

No it was removed because people bitched and complain, and no if you were maxed out they could be taken down in a full group. Sure they were tough ( was used as a cheat a while ago on FFXIV Quest item ) that would prevent damage for a specific amount of time. They were squish. Also range bouncing was common to use on those to by pass. So no they were not all powerful if you used the landscape around you and used attacks accordingly. Of course it really did not help much so most just avoided. Your right people hated the fact that the game was really hard and and poor interface, the story was good. Hence change of directed and boom Lets nuke the place came about. Still the way people bitch and complain lately is way too much. I'm sure you can agree on this, people still wipe on old content just because either their incompetent, lack common sense, or just over confident and ignore mechanics. Unlike FFXI you actually had to use something called common sense.

Now a days people want something for just trying and unfortunately that is what most of this game has become. I commend SE for complying to most demands, however to constantly nerf what is suppose to be considered average to hard content so anyone can access or complete is going a bit too far, Nerfing the content ok I can buy that, but constant nerfing? some of us actually like the challenge, and like to co-op with people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mjollnir

snip

---

Is there an easy way to find the Discord groups? I've just resubbed the other night, and I have a XIV friend trying XI for the first time. I'm thinking some additional support and conversation is never a bad thing :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

you'd get past them by having a group too large for the mobs to kill everyone before some people got through.

---

Funny, cause I unlocked all gates and camps completely solo as did many of my friends who played at the time. Even my super duper casual room mate unlocked them all with little effort. If you needed a large group to do it you were either A: lazy or B: bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

No it was removed because people bitched and complain, and no if you were maxed out they could be taken down in a full group. Sure they were tough ( was used as a cheat a while ago on FFXIV Quest item ) that would prevent damage for a specific amount of time. They were squish. Also range bouncing was common to use on those to by pass. So no they were not all powerful if you used the landscape around you and used attacks accordingly. Of course it really did not help much so most just avoided. Your right people hated the fact that the game was really hard and and poor interface, the story was good. Hence change of directed and boom Lets nuke the place came about. Still the way people bitch and complain lately is way too much. I'm sure you can agree on this, people still wipe on old content just because either their incompetent, lack common sense, or just over confident and ignore mechanics. Unlike FFXI you actually had to use something called common sense.

---

Interesting. I did not know that. In any case, the high-level mobs in FFXIV weren't actually intended as content, they were clearly placeholders for future areas. It's not like the aetherial gates they guarded had anything of interest behind them, aside from the achievement for finding them all. So they didn't "nerf" hard content so much as remove placeholders due to the game being completely redesigned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Now a days people want something for just trying and unfortunately that is what most of this game has become. I commend SE for complying to most demands, however to constantly nerf what is suppose to be considered average to hard content so anyone can access or complete is going a bit too far, Nerfing the content ok I can buy that, but constant nerfing? some of us actually like the challenge, and like to co-op with people.

---

If you like the challenge, you can queue up with your friends and do content at minimum ilvl. You can click off echo. There's very little nerfing you can't undo if you want to. (Off the top of my head the ones that stand out are the Demon Wall in AK, and Steps of Faith in general.) So in the current system, you get what you want, and players not looking for a challenge get what they want. And honestly, do you want every dungeon run to be dependent on actually getting four competent players?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

If you like the challenge, you can queue up with your friends and do content at minimum ilvl. You can click off echo. There's very little nerfing you can't undo if you want to. (Off the top of my head the ones that stand out are the Demon Wall in AK, and Steps of Faith in general.) So in the current system, you get what you want, and players not looking for a challenge get what they want. And honestly, do you want every dungeon run to be dependent on actually getting four competent players?

---

Been there done that, on my down time I help people out. Even tried playing on first person view, that is a lot of fun lol. Only problem is ability to gauge wide aoes lol for that is more of learning patterns and pray for the best :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Funny, cause I unlocked all gates and camps completely solo as did many of my friends who played at the time. Even my super duper casual room mate unlocked them all with little effort. If you needed a large group to do it you were either A: lazy or B: bad.

---

Your trolling is kind of sad, man.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skivvy

Is there an easy way to find the Discord groups? I've just resubbed the other night, and I have a XIV friend trying XI for the first time. I'm thinking some additional support and conversation is never a bad thing :)

---

FFXIclopedia: https://discord.gg/wWrYMU
Blue Gartr: https://discord.gg/NwfsDj6
Reddit/FFXI: https://discord.gg/fvfmnX
FFXIAH: https://discord.gg/FxMwBy
Windower: https://discord.gg/hBgbdh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

I would like to know how, specifically, you would implement non-instanced dungeons, open world leveling, more stats on gear, and dangerous monsters to FFXIV. (I can figure out the instanced housing myself ;))

---

Hah, I'm no programmer, so no idea. I'm presuming the dungeons we had in 1.0, which were open world, were removed because of zone-size memory issues? Wow that just took me back to hours trying to get different coloured keys to drop for chests in Shposhae and doing GC leves in Cassiopea Hollow. :)?

Open-world levelling... Power up those open world mobs that most people ignore and grant XP chains, or have special leves that are open-ended. There's loads of ways that can be done.

More stats on gear... so this is having a ring that's instead +Base Stat, would be eg, -50% Berserk Cooldown or +50% Berserk Duration. Something players could decide if it was something they'd prefer to take over the next.

Dangerous monsters... I mean, just whack up their stat numbers, right? Surely that's got to be better than having a world where people just dash through weak trash, eating the hits without a thought and letting them rubber band back to their spawn points

In general sandbox MMOs have way more deph than Theme parked MMOs, but they are far less balanced and way more grindy.

It's not for everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Hah, I'm no programmer, so no idea. I'm presuming the dungeons we had in 1.0, which were open world, were removed because of zone-size memory issues? Wow that just took me back to hours trying to get different coloured keys to drop for chests in Shposhae and doing GC leves in Cassiopea Hollow. :)?

Open-world levelling... Power up those open world mobs that most people ignore and grant XP chains, or have special leves that are open-ended. There's loads of ways that can be done.

More stats on gear... so this is having a ring that's instead +Base Stat, would be eg, -50% Berserk Cooldown or +50% Berserk Duration. Something players could decide if it was something they'd prefer to take over the next.

Dangerous monsters... I mean, just whack up their stat numbers, right? Surely that's got to be better than having a world where people just dash through weak trash, eating the hits without a thought and letting them rubber band back to their spawn points

---

Sorry, I didn't mean specifically as in like, actually coding it. I just meant, how would you want to see it implemented in a way that would improve the game?

My issue with a lot of the FFXI nostalgia is that even the stuff that did work in FFXI worked because it fit into FFXI's paradigm. In FFXIV terms, I presume both open-world dungeons and open-world leveling were removed because of the Duty Finder. The Duty Finder relies on instanced duties to work, and existed originally primarily as a leveling method. Having open-world content for leveling would therefore compete with the Duty Finder, causing less people to use it, and thus making it less useful to everyone. Given how MMOs work, everyone would inevitably determine that either a.) the Duty Finder was the better way to level, and abandon open-world leveling or b.) open-world leveling was the better way to level, and abandon the Duty Finder. If you want a Duty Finder (and I do), the best bet is to remove any real competition from it, but give people a way to gain some experience while they wait for a queue. And that's why they made FATEs. (Again, this is all assumption on my part, but it makes sense.)

Gear stats are an entire can of worms that have been argued to death on these forums, and I don't really want to get into that. The tl;dr version is that player choice is an illusion, and designing for it is a fool's errand.

For dangerous monsters, sure you can just make overworld monsters more deadly, but how does that improve the game? As we've discussed, in FFXI people snuck past most overworld monsters with abilities that don't even exist in FFXIV. Even FFXI players would not have put up with actually having to fight their way through world maps to get anywhere. It's just a time sink. Modern FFXI has largely removed this aspect of the game by allowing mounts almost anywhere and having a huge number of travel options. So what makes you think this would be better than the current system, and why?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talraen

Your trolling is kind of sad, man.

---

lol that's not even a troll. I am simply pointing out that you are exaggerating in a way that suits your narrative instead of telling it like it actually was.

- or -

you actually did have issues like this, which in that case means that you didn't really try, hence lazy, or that you were incapable of sneaking around them, which was not a problem a vast majority of players had, hence bad, making your perspective entirely that, your perspective, which can be reasonably assumed as being different due to lack of skill or patience and not a fault of the game itself.

Ugh, I just said a couple pages ago that some of my static members might leave if the game didn't change things up at the next expansion... turns out, two of them won't be waiting that long to leave. :(