Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

If BLM got a raise it should be self-only and usable while dead. Make it res them to full HP/MP in AF3 and leave a debuff that overwrites Enochian and has the same effects, except it kills them if they drop it. Simple as that. That's enough utility and there are mechanics where people would use that in prog (O4S Double Attack comes to mind, also T13 had a similar situation when solo-tanking with Akh Morn).

BLM can get utility, but it has to be selfish and/or dps oriented. Or SE has to make CC debuffs usable.

i like it, cause its selfish ;)

You don't want to have to raise, but sometimes you need to. Parties aren't set up with the idea that you "need" to raise, but as mentioned before it is much better to have the ability and not need it than need the ability and not have it.

BLM doesn't need to be a rez dispenser, it JUST needs to have an option. Honestly I don't know how much more simply it can be put. The other two caster roles have it, all the healers have it (note: every single DoM except BLM/THM have it). Even a self-only raise would be better than having nothing. I also like the "necromancy" idea from before which would exactly "suit the playstyle" of pure power caster.



I apologize for being "unnecessarily snarky", it's just amazing to me that people can't seem to take a step back, understand/analyze the dilemma, and think outside the box. It's incredible how quickly everyone just jumps to the same conclusion that it MUST work the way the other casters do so therefore it must be a bad idea. Work with me, here.

LITERALLY NO ONE wants BLM to dispense infinite raises. It JUST needs to have an option to compete for that caster slot (which currently doesn't even exist, soooo yep).

You managed to be snarky in an apology for being snarky, perfect 5/7. There isn't a point in bringing up the whole Disciple of Magic thing since half of them are healers, what healer in any game doesn't have a raise? Now imagine that Black Mage gets all the fixes people want so that it is competitive and then also gets a raise. It's overkill. Plus the other guy was right, it's a DPS loss even oGCD because you need an instant cast to make use of them, of which BLM has one non proc based.

Consider that people understand what you're saying, but they disagree with you.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

You don't want to have to raise, but sometimes you need to. Parties aren't set up with the idea that you "need" to raise, but as mentioned before it is much better to have the ability and not need it than need the ability and not have it.

BLM doesn't need to be a rez dispenser, it JUST needs to have an option. Honestly I don't know how much more simply it can be put. The other two caster roles have it, all the healers have it (note: every single DoM except BLM/THM have it). Even a self-only raise would be better than having nothing. I also like the "necromancy" idea from before which would exactly "suit the playstyle" of pure power caster.



I apologize for being "unnecessarily snarky", it's just amazing to me that people can't seem to take a step back, understand/analyze the dilemma, and think outside the box. It's incredible how quickly everyone just jumps to the same conclusion that it MUST work the way the other casters do so therefore it must be a bad idea. Work with me, here.

LITERALLY NO ONE wants BLM to dispense infinite raises. It JUST needs to have an option to compete for that caster slot (which currently doesn't even exist, soooo yep).

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As someone who on many occasions has had to paraphrase, summarize, elaborate, and just plain reiterate points for pages on end (see almost any thread concerning healer DPS) when other posters appear to disregard or misunderstand what I feel are extremely clear and sensible explanations, I'm not entirely unsympathetic.

On the other hand, sometimes it's simply the case that someone else actually did read and understand what you were suggesting and still disagrees. I can't speak for supaiku, but while I understand the argument for giving BLM some kind of rez as well as some options for making it somewhat distinctive, I just prefer that BLM not join the housekeeping crew. In fact, I'd be thrilled if the next couple of DoM DPS Jobs offered no resurrection whatsoever. I have a hard time believing that SE can't find ways to make magical DPS desirable without letting it function as a crutch.

Make sleep into a magic vuln debuff
Have Scathe scale with Astral/Umbral stacks so that it does ~300 potency (just spitballing a number) at 3 stacks so it can do some damage on the move.
Freeze gets a trait that makes it an instant cast after Flare and grants Umbral hearts.

I wouldn't even necessarily call raise a crutch. It's an ability that other jobs have to attempt recovery that BLM doesn't. Particularly where progression is concerned, this is the opposite of a crutch but rather exactly what you want.

All other BLM suggestions are well and good, please feel free to post them in the other megathread. This one is simply for debate about BLM getting raise or the other casters losing it. And once again, with the right implementation, it would hardly be joining "the housekeeping crew".

I am just very surprised that anyone who mains blm would want a raise ability...
We need more damage, that is all. Other jobs have utility

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I wouldn't even necessarily call raise a crutch. It's an ability that other jobs have to attempt recovery that BLM doesn't. Particularly where progression is concerned, this is the opposite of a crutch but rather exactly what you want.

All other BLM suggestions are well and good, please feel free to post them in the other megathread. This one is simply for debate about BLM getting raise or the other casters losing it. And once again, with the right implementation, it would hardly be joining "the housekeeping crew".

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Resurrection is, by definition, a crutch. This is not a semantics point that I imagined we would be debating.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

On the other hand, sometimes it's simply the case that someone else actually did read and understand what you were suggesting and still disagrees. I can't speak for supaiku, but while I understand the argument for giving BLM some kind of rez as well as some options for making it somewhat distinctive, I just prefer that BLM not join the housekeeping crew. In fact, I'd be thrilled if the next couple of DoM DPS Jobs offered no resurrection whatsoever. I have a hard time believing that SE can't find ways to make magical DPS desirable without letting it function as a crutch.

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My concern regarding being raiseless is that Red Mage highlighted a concerning possibility. If every Caster class is going to get a raise from now on, Black Mage not having access to its own variant is honestly pretty dumb.

I'm in favor of simply removing it from the caster role altogether, though I'm also in favor in rearranging much of the toolbox each role / job gets.

Honesly I think a perfect if Verraise just had a 30 second recharge when Dualcasted. That way RDM has a noticeabe niche with White Magic skill but without being ou of hand.

It is certainly not a crutch "by definition".

Resurrection may be labeled as a crutch when there is a sacrifice strategy being enacted (Manipulator's Royal Pentacle, Winged Justice's Compressed Water). At this point you are leaning on it to forego mechanics that are designed to be handled properly simply because it's easier to sac.

Characters dying is a very normal part of progression. This does not make it "a crutch", but favorable to bring as more potential for raising means more potential for moving further forward in the fight.

After progression, it's much more of a hindrance than a crutch. Losing uptime/resources/rotations is not "a crutch" but rather a gimp. You don't WANT players to die, but they do in fact die from time to time. The ability not to have to wipe a run because your only raiser (healer) or raisers die is not what I would call a crutch. This seems to be where our definitions differ.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Honesly I think a perfect if Verraise just had a 30 second recharge when Dualcasted. That way RDM has a noticeabe niche with White Magic skill but without being ou of hand.

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I don't want to dilute a useful and unique niche RDM fills in progression.
Verraise is fine the way it is.
The issues with casters at large are only tangentially related to the raises- and I hope people can see this instead of calling for utility nerfs that don't fix the underlying issues.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

It is certainly not a crutch "by definition".

Resurrection may be labeled as a crutch when there is a sacrifice strategy being enacted (Manipulator's Royal Pentacle, Winged Justice's Compressed Water). At this point you are leaning on it to forego mechanics that are designed to be handled properly simply because it's easier to sac.

Characters dying is a very normal part of progression. This does not make it "a crutch", but favorable to bring as more potential for raising means more potential for moving further forward in the fight.

After progression, it's much more of a hindrance than a crutch. Losing uptime/resources/rotations is not "a crutch" but rather a gimp. You don't WANT players to die, but they do in fact die from time to time. The ability not to have to wipe a run because your only raiser (healer) or raisers die is not what I would call a crutch. This seems to be where our definitions differ.

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Resurrection allows you to proceed when fatal mistakes are made.

However, when no such mistakes are made, it is completely useless.

Its sole function is to enable recovery from errors. Of course you can call it what you like, but in my book this is a crutch.

Further, this is why the entire RDM Job is currently a progression clutch; groups lean on it to recover from multiple deaths and play further into each phase, then they are likely to shelve it once people stop dying so much.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

I don't want to dilute a useful and unique niche RDM fills in progression..

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When that niche holds ransom the potential of a job too much it's however a bad niche that should go

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Originally Posted by Remedi

When that niche holds ransom the potential of a job too much it's however a bad niche that should go

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No, it really isn't, imho.
What do you mean by "holding ransom"? The fact RDM was (emphasis on was, because we all know they'll get swapped for a Summoner halfway through) a prime candidate for progression due to its unique ability to put a party back on its feet is good.
No other dps job could do that. Maybe it was the only unique thing it had, but it was a useful unique thing it had.
Do you mean "damage" by "potential"? As in, "they need to lower RDM's inherent dps because of the defensive utility it brings"? What's wrong with that? When was it in RDM's identity to do a ton of damage?
That's like saying "bard is help hostage by its insane utility". No, bard is just a high-utility, lower-dps job (and even then, does a lot of damage imho).

Or do you mean RDM holds another job ransom?
RDM and BLM are apples and oranges. They're not supposed to fight for the same kind of role, and they only do because of this ugly super-synergistic, super-overpowered physical comp (with a side of SMN).
The problem here isn't with RDM or Verraise. RDM also needs a bit of a bump to become more competitive- BRD, NIN and MCH all offer superior utility and superior personal dps.
The problem is how stacking casters is awful by party-synergy design and two of them are underpowered (BLM is straight trash).

*insert rant about how I believe BLM should be balanced to be a powerhouse in speedkilling/farming and not progressing because its playstyle inherently requires very deep knowledge of the fight that's non-conducive of optimal progression and counter-intuitive while you're learning a fight*

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

snip

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I agree with about 90% of this post; maybe all of it, as nothing is objectively wrong. I just dislike the idea of jobs being balanced for different portions of progression; it can lead to people who hate a job having to play it, and people who love a job having to leave it behind.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

Snip

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You are not entirely wrong, but since some ppl have said that RDM cannot have a dmg upgrade because of the huge safety net they bring to the raid (which is as you said becoming less influential) I'd point my finger toward that uniquiness to be harmful
You use bard as a comparison, however Bard utility is always there while RDM usefulness gets lower and lower as you progress in an encounter, so they cannot really be compared and remember RDM total dmg is not higher than BLM even when rdps is factured.

In a world where chain ressing wouldn't be possible ppl would say that RDM is underpowerd but because ppl have become so compleced and drowsed by it because they seems, at least to me, to be mesmerized by the utility it provides they are simply ignoring a hidden problem.
Frankly the lack of empathy between jobs that the forum is displaying is discouraging and honestly it doesn't go in our favor. Anyway because the implementation of chain raising has started all this discussions of giving raise to BLM, which will lead eventually to some other jobs asking for it just like about everyone asks to get some sort of raid utility,I strongly believe that dualcast raise either should go or be extremely limited.

RDM was not implemented to be a Raise mage and since some of the ppl playing RDM dislike the moniker rez dispenser, I think it's very arrogant for ppl not playing it be aggresive towards them or telling them to stfu because they have an unwanted niche

As I said in the past, If we want to be taken seriously in ANY balance discussions the playerbase needs to be ready to even take steps against things that seems to be extremely useful if those things can lead to problems in the game eventually or are completely unintended

As an addendum I'll add that WHM have a better niche of beign progression worthy since it emphasize raw power and efficency on their main role. I personally think they could do something like that for casters too so I don't understand why ppl like to defend verraise so much.
Why should we settle for small morsels when they have shown they can do much better?

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I just dislike the idea of jobs being balanced for different portions of progression; it can lead to people who hate a job having to play it, and people who love a job having to leave it behind.

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The difference, though, is that no one actually "has" to leave RDM behind. It may be a weaker choice than SMN damage-wise, but it's not like anyone is upset about a RDM in their party. Sorry to turn this into another BLM comparison, but it's true. RDM is perfectly capable of doing the content and should only be buffed in relative proportion to BLM getting higher buffs. No one is going to coerce RDMs to play SMN with the same intensity that BLMs would be coerced to play either of the other two.

And yeah, I was certainly not happy with the state of "needing" to play RDM, and no one should be bullied into playing something when they don't want to. This is just another reason to have Raise on BLM; it should be able to compete in that arena with the other two jobs. Call me a broken record but it does not need to dispense infinite raises, it JUST needs to have the option to use it (better to have and not need than to need and not have). Give it a "raw power" twist, and call it a day.

"Raise this person to increase my damage? Hell to the yeah!" says every BLM main in the game. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Sorry to turn this into another BLM comparison

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My comment was about Black Mage as well, in response to Galvuu's comment here:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

*insert rant about how I believe BLM should be balanced to be a powerhouse in speedkilling/farming and not progressing because its playstyle inherently requires very deep knowledge of the fight that's non-conducive of optimal progression and counter-intuitive while you're learning a fight*

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I mean, I certainly don't think ANY class should be "counter-intuitive" at ANY time really (and I get the feeling the devs would agree with me), let alone during progression.


The whole point is that I don't want to have to play RDM (read: be bullied into playing it, be shamed for NOT playing it, be excluded from groups that specifically want only RDM, even feel guilty myself because I know I'd be "better optimized" for doing it) for progression and then be able to switch to BLM only after, and RDMs don't want to have to switch to BLM after progression because they enjoy their job. BLM doesn't need to be THE BEST class for progression like Rez Dispenser (tm), it just needs to be better than it is right now, and I think pretty much everyone would agree with that. Enter properly-implemented combat raise (and probably at least a half dozen other buffs, but I digress).

Sorry but your idea of a 3 min CD raise OGCD is essentially useless, it's essentially not on par with other sources in any way other than beign an ability and not a spell so you could use it if somehow everyone is silenced I guess, the only thing it does is giving an option that serves nothing and opens the flood gates for other jobs to have it.

I still insist if a safety net is so request to the point of ppl bullyuiing other for not playing RDM during prog, that means that it has overstaying is welcome and should be nerfed, as I said there are better ways to make a class more worthy for prog and SE can do it. As things stands now RDM have no identity in the game outside beign the guy who remains out of combat in molten core raising the group

...It is supposed to be an ability. Otherwise there would be downtime and rotation interruption. That's the whole point.

And I fully disagree, it changes a lot. The ability to raise a healer who died vs basically requiring a wipe is a huge difference. The long recast is to prevent spamming it which is exactly what we don't want, and it gives a "spread" along the role to avoid homogenization.

And, one more time, dying is GOING to happen in progression. Give the job a Raise and further overtune Weakness/Brink, if you think it's "too risky" to have as a tool. Quite frankly I used to hate the days (and still do when I actually play BLM anymore) where the healer dies and there is no choice but to wipe. We don't want to have to wipe upon death, that doesn't somehow make the game more enjoyable, if anything more tedious. It can be pretty impressive to say "we recovered this with 4 deaths".

I suppose we have to agree to disagree on this point.
I personally don't see a problem in the situation you describe, in my opinion each time that event happens it should incite the group to do better even trough sheer tediousness just because if that happens you are letting down the team.
My fear is that if chain ressing stays as it is it might force SE to make so that every mechanic comes with an instant wipe solution if handled wrongly, just because how ppl perceives the usefulness of that (and in the past they have shown to do this to counter unintended startegy, who remembers the 360° devour in savage second coil?)

I still insist that the ability you speak about doesn't change much really, it gives the possibility yes, but not much else, the other sources are just better by a long much and frankly as I said if SE caves to this EVERY job will want it.

Noooo rez for blm please..., dont make it a another cross class skill blm need (bye bye swiftcast, blm need so desperately) and dont make smn and rdm lose a part of their identity

there are so many other ways to make blm desirable again / to fix blm, ... rez is not one if them

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Originally Posted by Remedi

...and frankly as I said if SE caves to this EVERY job will want it.

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No, every CASTER will want it. Which is exactly what adding this will achieve. The caster role is able to raise. Except BLM. Which is exactly the problem.



Also note another person who did not read the thread above.

Unless BLM is to be given double time on it's Astral/Umbral statuses then giving them a rez will be a major detriment to their DPS, and even then the party must be doing something wrong if the healer can't do the rezzing. Honestly rez shouldn't be required for any content, even one of the savage metas BRD-MNK-MCH-NIN were able to clear content WITHOUT a caster using rez (bar the healers).

Give BLM more damage and/or utility (not rez) to bring them on par with other casters and be done with it. This thread needs to end already.

Can you be sure that it'll stop to just casters? You yourself said that PLD should get one and eventually all the tanks to balance them then, what? all the melee dps/ranged physical too?

You're really grasping for straws here. "Because I want it" is not my reasoning in the least.

My reasoning is that the role is unbalanced WAY out of BLM's favor and that needs to be changed, and part of that can and probably should include the ability to raise. No melee or ranged DPS roles have raise nor should they need them. Perhaps BRD might have seen it in 2.0 if they continued in the "support" direction (note the old LB3), but not anymore. Meanwhile, two of the three caster roles have the ability on a spectrum, and one does not at all. I don't see how you can think this is balanced for the role.

PLD could meaningfully have it and then by extension the other tanks too with some creative license (however it would ALSO be acceptable for ONLY PLD to have it, it would NOT be acceptable for only PLD and DRK to have it, but NOT WAR. See how this works?), but if you're seriously trying to tell me that DRG will cry for raise and then complain when they don't get it because it makes absolutely no sense for their class nor for their role, then I don't even know what to say to you.



Note another person that did not read the thread above.

I'm saying that they should remove it, I'm not saying that it is balanced though
Frankly as I keep saying It would lead to death be even less punishing that it is right now and frankly when Titan EX is in the heart of many high end players because it teached you that you were in the wrong spot BECAUSE if you died you were out.

(also there are plenty of gimmicky way for to be implemented to all the jobs, did you know that monks usually had a raise skills in the franchise?)

Also frankly at that point why not just adding it to the role skill for both healers and casters?

Death is more punishing to the player now than it ever has been. It is only LESS punishing for the healers that used to have to try to do extra shielding due to lowered HP from weakness.

Dying now is a more significant main stat damage loss than it was in the past, so I would argue that it would make no difference. You don't WANT to die, obviously, but deaths happen even in the best of groups. Also, Titan EX was where if you fell off it was over, and THAT was the challenge. Notice how in Sophia onward falling off respawns your dead body on the platform. This represents a paradigm shift TOWARDS the value of recovery rather than "harsh punishment for mistakes" in my eyes.



Lore-wise a Raise skill would make sense on MNK (just like Lore-wise it would make sense on PLD) but ROLE-WISE, which is what I've been arguing about in ALL of these threads this entire time, it makes no sense for these two to have it, but it DOES make sense for BLM.

The problem is that the caster role is off-balance, and since groups take one caster (or they SHOULD be, if we could upheave the physical meta), it is brother against brother. And quite plainly, the odds are stacked against BLM heavily.

Do you know the impact it would make? 0. People would still bring RDM for chain raise or SMN for semi frequent raises and less catering. Raise doesn't make BLM attractive.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Death is more punishing to the player now than it ever has been. It is only LESS punishing for the healers that used to have to try to do extra shielding due to lowered HP from weakness.

Dying now is a more significant main stat damage loss than it was in the past, so I would argue that it would make no difference. You don't WANT to die, obviously, but deaths happen even in the best of groups. Also, Titan EX was where if you fell off it was over, and THAT was the challenge. Notice how in Sophia onward falling off respawns your dead body on the platform. This represents a paradigm shift TOWARDS the value of recovery rather than "harsh punishment for mistakes" in my eyes.



Lore-wise a Raise skill would make sense on MNK (just like Lore-wise it would make sense on PLD) but ROLE-WISE, which is what I've been arguing about in ALL of these threads this entire time, it makes no sense for these two to have it, but it DOES make sense for BLM.

The problem is that the caster role is off-balance, and since groups take one caster (or they SHOULD be, if we could upheave the physical meta), it is brother against brother. And quite plainly, the odds are stacked against BLM heavily.

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I think on paper is more punishing for the one who died true, but since now deaths are more recoverable I'd lean on it's less punishing than before
Before, it's true that it was punishing for healers tpo spend MP on raising some1 only for it to die to the next aoe, but it also means that you could be out of a fight so in a sense your dps loss was higher.

You are absolutely right on the fact that they shifted on more recovery after sophia, but frankly that was when high end players styarted to look at content with contempt, which probably was the right move to reinvigorate the raid scene, considering what happened before.

That said I never said that casters were balanced in this, I always said that since they are not balanced raising should go away from casters or be introduced as siomething extremely niche and ininfluental to the point where ppl would say: ye it's good but something you can live without (Admittedly this is something very hard to achieve).

I don't see them removing Rez Dispenser(tm) from the way that it is right now, not to mention SMN is a MP generating machine now that Ruin III is no longer a dump (so basically always capable of raising especially with swift), so therefore the only real option is (note: should be) for BLM to gain some kind of option to compete with this.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Do you know the impact it would make? 0. People would still bring RDM for chain raise or SMN for semi frequent raises and less catering. Raise doesn't make BLM attractive.

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"This raise doesn't inflict res sickness."

Bam. Give it a 3 minute cooldown.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I don't see them removing Rez Dispenser(tm) from the way that it is right now, not to mention SMN is a MP generating machine now that Ruin III is no longer a dump (so basically always capable of raising especially with swift), so therefore the only real option is (note: should be) for BLM to gain some kind of option to compete with this.

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As I told you, we won't agree on this, for me ress should be a healer only thing and be removed or severely limited from casters.
Feel free to think w/e you want of me because of this, but I strongly believe from everyone's reaction to this that it's not good at all for the game balance how it is handled now

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

"This raise doesn't inflict res sickness."

Bam. Give it a 3 minute cooldown.

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Now see that might do it or at least would make people consider it. Or alternately they could get rid of Verraise which I believe myself and most of RDMs are tired of being brought for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Remedi

As I told you, we won't agree on this, for me ress should be a healer only thing and be removed or severely limited from casters.

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Why is this so difficult to grasp? "Red Mages typically cast both Black and White Magic and can also wield swords and equip armor that normal Black and White Mages cannot. They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series. However, their versatility comes at a price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Why is this so difficult to grasp? "Red Mages typically cast both Black and White Magic and can also wield swords and equip armor that normal Black and White Mages cannot. They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series. However, their versatility comes at a price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest."

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Were this any other classic FF title you'd have a point.