~Poll~ Longer fights <Do you want it?>

Actually, Eekiki, you want to look at raptors. Between tail swipes and fire breath you gotta be plenty careful about positioning and WS triggering around them. Also careful of spawns/adds because seriously, one of them spawns too close and goes unattended for a moment and BAM everyone dies D:

And I do agree with you, levelling parties should in fact require a bit more of strategy, without actually slowing down the parties.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

This.

Should really vary between bosses, though. Not every boss should be heroic Lich King in length. Average boss fight being between 10-15 minutes in 24-man raids seems reasonable enough, I think.

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Too bad Yoshida already agreed fights are too short and mobs die too quickly. He's in favor of increasing all battle lengths.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Too bad Yoshida already agreed fights are too short and mobs die too quickly. He's in favor of increasing all battle lengths.

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Did he? Oh, happy days!~ I must have missed that, thanks Elexia!

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Did he? Oh, happy days!~ I must have missed that, thanks Elexia!

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Yep, it was all part of the battle reform plan regarding battle regimen reintroduction iirc.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Vote YES here!

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FFXIV fans are so disappointing. Wishy washy.

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Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

FFXIV fans are so disappointing. Wishy washy.

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How so!?! I'm one A class guy.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

How so!?! I'm one A class guy.

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What a bunch of Jokers! ~Reyn ^^

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Too bad Yoshida already agreed fights are too short and mobs die too quickly. He's in favor of increasing all battle lengths.

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Which can invite problems depending on the approach taken. If you try to focus on CC then I hope they give CC to every DPS job. If you're increasing mob HP and defenses then I hope they also tweak player debuffs and spread them through all the classes.

That's not to mention that making solo exp inconvenient (which would result from longer fights) is a step backwards. We'll see how this plays out.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Which can invite problems depending on the approach taken. If you try to focus on CC then I hope they give CC to every DPS job. If you're increasing mob HP and defenses then I hope they also tweak player debuffs and spread them through all the classes.

That's not to mention that making solo exp inconvenient (which would result from longer fights) is a step backwards. We'll see how this plays out.

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Point 1: That's exactly why it was being regarded as a change with the reintroduction of the Battle Regimen system. Player debuffs are mostly worthless because mobs die just so quick that it can't even take effect most of the time or flat out resist rates without alternatives, for example in FFXI you had numerous ways to debuff even resistant bosses that weren't elemental based resistance (i.e no paralyze on Shiva.)

Point 2: That's also why they're tweaking the guild leve system which monsters already have scalable and pre-adjusted HP/defense which are lower than "world spawn" mobs, if you ever get a mob caught in your AoE at low level, look at how quick a GL mob dies versus a regular mob, they have a lot lower HP in many regards.

Yoshida isn't inexperienced to MMOs so he knows the type of balance they'll need, it's mostly the community that's heavily split on certain subjects, he's not against doing a lot that he deems will be good for the game.

This thread was pointless in the sense that we all know battles are supposed to get longer.

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Originally Posted by Mudd

This thread was pointless in the sense that we all know battles are supposed to get longer.

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We knew that? We knew that at the time of thread creation? I did not know, so please say, "I knew that."

I voted both because forum poll voting is one of the worst ways to collect overall player opinion. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Taking three minutes to kill one monster is fun?

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It's more fun than taking 12 seconds.

I think leveling is paced just right as is.
You kill a monster based on your party and well it's able to work together, I suppose. Shitty party? Long fight!

Anywhos, as people mentioned earlier endgame is where the real time consuming fights come in.

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Originally Posted by Rukira

I think leveling is paced just right as is.
You kill a monster based on your party and well it's able to work together, I suppose. Shitty party? Long fight!

Anywhos, as people mentioned earlier endgame is where the real time consuming fights come in.

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That leaves no room for debuff spells as other have mentioned! No point in those classes, people wouldn't even want to party with you, because you would be usless!~

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Originally Posted by Rokien

That leaves no room for debuff spells as other have mentioned!

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False. Debuffs can still play a role in 4/8-man dungeons and 24-man raids. CC would still be needed for adds. Debuffs can be used to supplement tank and DPS performance without going to silly extremes. It's quite feasible and part of the way there with current ability design. The devs just have to ensure that potency is built-in, in a matter of speaking.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

False. Debuffs can still play a role in 4/8-man dungeons and 24-man raids. CC would still be needed for adds. Debuffs can be used to supplement tank and DPS performance without going to silly extremes. It's quite feasible and part of the way there with ability design. The devs just have to ensure that potency is built-in, in a matter of speaking.

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I don't believe Rokien is talking about dungeons or raids, but specifically fighting standard mobs, which, let's be frank, is 90% of the game.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

That leaves no room for debuff spells as other have mentioned! No point in those classes, people wouldn't even want to party with you, because you would be usless!~

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You're right! But, why are you leveling? To get to 50, right? That's where the current content is. SE wants you to level fast so you can play with the rest of your friends. I assume in 2.0 leveling will be close to Korean MMO tier, so you can just always wait it out. Or, you know. Level a crafting job. Plenty of time to learn your abilities there.

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Originally Posted by Rukira

You're right! But, why are you leveling? To get to 50, right? That's where the current content is. SE wants you to level fast so you can play with the rest of your friends. I assume in 2.0 leveling will be close to Korean MMO tier, so you can just always wait it out. Or, you know. Level a crafting job. Plenty of time to learn your abilities there.

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No, to me it's a journey, a sense of progression, character growth. I don't like end game stuff, I didn't do it in FFXI, yet I played that game for 9 years.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

No, to me it's a journey, a sense of progression, character growth. I don't like end game stuff, I didn't do it in FFXI, yet I played that game for 9 years.

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Only solution I have to that is to level old school. Just solo your leves. Have fun!

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Originally Posted by Rukira

Only solution I have to that is to level old school. Just solo your leves. Have fun!

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....... I play an mmo for a reason, to play with people!

This isn't about leveling speed its about speed at which you kill things.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

....... I play an mmo for a reason, to play with people!

This isn't about leveling speed its about speed at which you kill things.

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So join an endgame shell and start clearing dungeons/killing bosses. You get to play with people and take longer killing them bosses for loot.

longer, we need it bad for xp partys, half the time you cant even attack cuz the mobs are dead.

Where's the poll to remove Roiken's ability to post new topics?

Sparking conversation is one thing, flooding the forum with topics (Some of which have been discussed to death already or have better threads to hold the discussion in.) is downright infuriating.

Roiken, please use the search function before making new threads. And lets keep discussions down to one new one a week. I don't mind debating down your ideas but when you flood the forums with them, it gets annoying.

On topic: Fighting standard fodder solo is at about the right pacing. In groups, the enemies should have a better collective magic resistence if they're linked as they are too easily wiped by AoE magic damage. (AoE physical damage does not seem to amount all that much.)

As far as debuffs against cannon fodder - fools errand. That goes against the pourpose of cannon fodder which is to die quickly. Beyond simple mass crowd controls such as sleep, the game should give enfeeblers the ability to deal sufficent damage against fodder mobs to make up for the lack of need of enfeebles.

I'd like some fights not to be instantaneously over, mind you, but that's mainly skirmishes needed for raids. For XP parties? No, faster the mob dies, the better the rewards. That's the entire point of the mob grind.

So longer fights in the raiding department, so long as the speed-run requirement is removed.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Where's the poll to remove Roiken's ability to post new topics?

Sparking conversation is one thing, flooding the forum with topics (Some of which have been discussed to death already or have better threads to hold the discussion in.) is downright infuriating.

Roiken, please use the search function before making new threads. And lets keep discussions down to one new one a week. I don't mind debating down your ideas but when you flood the forums with them, it gets annoying.

On topic: Fighting standard fodder solo is at about the right pacing. In groups, the enemies should have a better collective magic resistence if they're linked as they are too easily wiped by AoE magic damage. (AoE physical damage does not seem to amount all that much.)

As far as debuffs against cannon fodder - fools errand. That goes against the pourpose of cannon fodder which is to die quickly. Beyond simple mass crowd controls such as sleep, the game should give enfeeblers the ability to deal sufficent damage against fodder mobs to make up for the lack of need of enfeebles.

I'd like some fights not to be instantaneously over, mind you, but that's mainly skirmishes needed for raids. For XP parties? No, faster the mob dies, the better the rewards. That's the entire point of the mob grind.

So longer fights in the raiding department, so long as the speed-run requirement is removed.

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; ; people always spell my name wrong~ maybe when you guys start saying it right? That's a pretty good compromise!

Also, I did use the search function to find this thread. Also it's impossible to add to another thread that doesn't exist.

On topic:

Why better rewards? What is the reward for killing faster?

normal mobs shouldnt take more than 30s
only elites and nm should take a few min

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On topic:

Why better rewards? What is the reward for killing faster?

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Spirit bind is determined by enemies killed.
Enemy loot drops such as crystals are determined by enemies killed.
EXP rate will always be faster by killing multiple quickly spawning, quickly killed monsters than slower to kill monsters regardless of the spawn rate. Safer too.

You're already well hated on these boards, how about you offer the olive branch and condense your ideas down to one thread per general goal and then we'll talk about getting your name right.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Spirit bind is determined by enemies killed.
Enemy loot drops such as crystals are determined by enemies killed.
EXP rate will always be faster by killing multiple quickly spawning, quickly killed monsters than slower to kill monsters regardless of the spawn rate. Safer too.

You're already well hated on these boards, how about you offer the olive branch and condense your ideas down to one thread per general goal and then we'll talk about getting your name right.

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It's called adjustments....................................................................................................................


also I'm not hated, it's called affection.

and it's Rokien. thanks ^.^

You can adjust too, you know. The game does not have to bend to your every whim.

Why not start doing raids more often? Or fight more difficult monsters instead of complaining that fodder is too easy for you.

This game is not about grinding the same 3 species of monsters all day to level. You might enjoy it, but the bulk of gamers do not, and those that do, prefer faster results, not longer, more tedious fights. There's nothing exciting about grinding - in fact I wanted to note to the developers that they should and some more randomizing elements to raids, as they tend to get boring if they're just identical every time.

There's some wind in your sails about having fights not be instantaneous deaths, that's where you're getting the bulk of your votes from. But that has to do more with the concept that there's really not enough magical resistance in this game in general.

But go grind a level 58 camp sans BLM and you'll get the fight length you desire.

The biggest flaw about monsters that are not dieing faster is that it promose the "Several on One" approach that FFXI did to attacking monsters. Pulling one at a time, fighting it, pulling another. And that fighting system not only made no sense, but it ended up being trite and boring. It'd make more sense, and more FF traditional, that you'd end up with monster groups that lasted a bit longer, instead of the individuals.


And I'm fairly certain that if it wasn't directly against forum guidelines, people would be spouting vulgarities at you, Roiken.

lol, do like i do, take full party and storm the strongholds, not pulling one by one, but go on a rampage taking as many mobs as possible and then you'll see a fun fight... :D

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

As far as debuffs against cannon fodder - fools errand. That goes against the pourpose of cannon fodder which is to die quickly

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And this is the issue.

Tell me, because I've never quite understood, what's the appeal of 'cannon fodder' style enemies? Not just in MMO's, but other games as well, particularly Dynasty Warriors. There's no effort or skill, no thinking or brain power put into it, so where does the 'fun' come in?

Think about it like this: You're given a device of sorts, with nothing but a single button below an LCD screen that displays '000'. You're told that every time you press that button, the counter will go up by 1, increasing your score. Now, tell me, how long do you think the device would hold your attention? What would you rate the amount of 'fun' you're having out of 10 over, say, 30 minutes?

Now, imagine the same device, but with an addition; Now there's a pendulum of sorts connected to the device, with a marker over it's center point. You're now told that to increase your score, you must push the button when the pendulum is aligned with the marker as it swings to and fro. Compare this to last device, and rate it in the same way. I bet you'd find that the added, although slight, amount of depth would keep you interested in the second device longer than the first; There's more intricacies, more rules to gauge, and more brain stimulation overall.

'Cannon fodder' enemies are what I would compare the first device to, and what Rokien is asking for is what I would consider the second. So again, what's the appeal? Why bother taking the time to level up if it's not fun? Grinding shouldn't be a wall to endgame, it should be an equally enjoyable experience. At least, in my mind. I mean, you're paying to do it, after all.

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Tell me, because I've never quite understood, what's the appeal of 'cannon fodder' style enemies?

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I'll tell you flat out.

Cannon fodder, if ignored or understimated, becomes a dangerous element, especially when spotted with stronger enemies.

For example. Castra Novum. A good number of the monsters there can be killed with ease, but if you sit and do so, you'll be trapped in a never ending battle with spawn rates wearing down your healers until you eventually succumb and die due to lack of fight control.

Pair that off with the fact that you really have to pay attention to the big guys spattered among them and you've got a fight on your hands.

Imagine Garuda without her Plumes. Without the cannon fodder providing a constant threat to your protection from her 2hr, that fight would be just a 'tank and spank' which is actually more boring than fighting cannon fodder.

Beyond that? Cannon Fodder is a sense of empowerment of your character. You are better than the average mob, about equal to the uncommon mobs, and need to team up with friends to fight the superior mobs.

Now there are ways to make things more challenging, but following Roiken's suggestion and making field monsters harder is not the answer - and actually expresses a lack of exploration of the game on his end. If you go to any of the Beastmen strongholds or Castra Novum, you will see the dynamic fighting style I have just described. Those fights are not boring or unsatasfying, if you're not careful, they can be quite dangerous, especially Castra Novum. Granted, some areas could use a bit more spotting of the stronger version to balance things out, but people will usually go the path of least resistance, buy and large, so some areas where you can kill Cannon Fodder only will be desired to remain as is.

So no, your analogy is very far off the marker, really as there's a huge difference between describing the fights on paper and actually participating.

I agree that Grinding shoulden't be a wall to endgame, but that is also an argument for faster leveling, because any repeatable content that is not endgame that does not get reused for endgame, will die off and become failed resources.

In the meanwhile, Leves, Quests, Storyline all keep the 'grind' more interesting as you level up faster.

Take the Imperials in the United We Stand fight. The actual mech itself is a bit tough, and you need to do enough damage to the you know what to win.

Then there are the Imperial Troops that spawn. They seem to be a minor pain. Easy to round up and kill. But god help you if you don't. They'll slaughter your mages if left to their own Imperial devices.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Take the Imperials in the United We Stand fight. The actual mech itself is a bit tough, and you need to do enough damage to the you know what to win.

Then there are the Imperial Troops that spawn. They seem to be a minor pain. Easy to round up and kill. But god help you if you don't. They'll slaughter your mages if left to their own Imperial devices.

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United We Stand is quite possibly the best example of that system used right now. There are other ways of creating interesting battles, but note that they are all designed fights for raids or storyline.

Speaking realistically, that's where you are going to find the most interesting fights every time. You can't ask that of field monsters.

Now, you can do somethings that make field monsters more interesting, like dynamic monster behavior (Like how Marmots cower and Deer flee to bait you in for a back-kick, or how Gnats teleport. But these things will only really be seen solo.

For group fights, the enemies do not need to just have 'moar hp so they don't die as fast'. They need to have group dynamics, which they have, though in its ifancy. It would be nice if there was better group catagories like in the Mog Fight. You might not see it kiting everyone, but each moogle functions slightly differently, working at a different role. We get some hints of that in beast-men dungeons, but it can be fleshed out better. But again, that can't happen in the open field - the best place for that would be in strongholds.

What I'm trying to state here is that Roiken needs to get out more and do dungeon raids and beast-men strongholds. That's where you're going to find the dynamic group fights your seeking. Don't impede on solo content to enforce group rules.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

For example. Castra Novum. A good number of the monsters there can be killed with ease, but if you sit and do so, you'll be trapped in a never ending battle with spawn rates wearing down your healers until you eventually succumb and die due to lack of fight control.

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I agree, Castra is among my favorite pieces of content in the game, and I would really love to see more like it, but it's really not on topic. It's an endgame area, not part of the leveling process at all, which is what this thread is about

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Imagine Garuda without her Plumes. Without the cannon fodder providing a constant threat to your protection from her 2hr, that fight would be just a 'tank and spank' which is actually more boring than fighting cannon fodder.

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I wouldn't consider the plumes as cannon fodder at all, it's not their purpose. They're more like obstacles; extensions of Garuda herself, not individual mobs. Even if you were to consider them such, they still have more complexities than most enemy types found in the fields; They're highly magic resistant, have a planned movement pattern, and have the ticking time bomb mechanic. You can't really compare them to the average Dodo

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Beyond that? Cannon Fodder is a sense of empowerment of your character.

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This I can understand, but I don't see eye to eye with it. In my mind, empowerment should come from you, the player, being skilled enough to defeat a mob, not your avatar simply having the stats. Now, I know that is among one of the founding pillars of the RPG genre, but that's doesn't mean I have to agree with it. When playing jrpgs, I always find myself underleveled, as I intentionally avoid numerous encounters because I feel as if I'm breaking the game, and therefore removing the fun if I can simply overpower enemies and bosses with stats alone. Finding the enemy weaknesses, and formulating party compositions to make up for lacking statistics is where the enjoyment comes from, not seeing big numbers flash on the screen.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

So no, your analogy is very far off the marker, really as there's a huge difference between describing the fights on paper and actually participating.

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I don't really think so. In a standard exp party, I'm usually using 2 skills (Honestly, more like one considering that combat is currently based on combos. I honestly consider Thunder -> Thundara as 'one' skill at this point) If the standard battle was balanced around me having to use, say 5, or 6 skills to succeed, I'd find myself much more stimulated overall

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Originally Posted by Jocko

I don't really think so. In a standard exp party, I'm usually using 2 skills (Honestly, more like one considering that combat is currently based on combos. I honestly consider Thunder -> Thundara as 'one' skill at this point) If the standard battle was balanced around me having to use, say 5, or 6 skills to succeed, I'd find myself much more stimulated overall

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Lost me at "Thunder > Thundara"

You can't use Black Mages as the standard for the whole of the game. Your job simply IS Thunder > Thundara, and that's a flaw of the job design. Even in group battles, I as a Dragoon have a lot I have to handle, particularly if I'm competing against Black Mage's ridiculous damage output due to their collective lack of damage impairment.

Also, you're talking 'XP party' again, field monsters. That's a bad standard to have because you're dealing with conflicting interests. Bulk of players do not want a harder fight to gain XP with, they want a harder fight to have fun with, but then complain that the rewards are too poor for it.

To be completely honest, the concept of an 'XP party' is a dated one. At least in the sense you're trying to describe. Grinding the same monsters over and over again and expecting something other than boring is counterproductive. Ideally what they should do is make group specific Leves or some other sort of dynamic repeatable content that's easy to produce for the party that yields strong rewards. That way, during these group training regimens, they can throw a curve ball on occasion to keep you on your toes and keep you excited about the content.

There's no real group-based Leves currently in the game, and the Leves we have for single player don't quite have enough variance to them within each individual Leve itself. If they met both of these requirements then there really wouldn't be no room for complaints. Not to mention - you'd probably wind up with more players that are raid-ready on the onset of 50.

Doesn't really matter either way. So what if you get 500 per mob at 2 kills a minute, or 1000 exp per mob at 1 kill a minute? As for common drops, just increase those too. Exp grind will take just as long either case. It's not like the developers haven't got a pre-defined plan for how long the grind is supposed to take.

If the developers want the grind the be longer, they could do it in three different ways already. Increase exp requirements for each new level, decrease exp gain per kill, or make mobs slower to kill. If the dev team wants slower levelups, would it make a difference to us which of these three they increased? I don't think so.

If they want to keep levelup rates to happen as fast as they to today, they would naturally change one of the other two variables whenever they changed one of them, so that the leveling speed stayed the same.

In the end, time spent per mob is an issue of flavor, not character progression mechanics. Would you mind if an exp mob took 5 times as long to kill if they gave you 10 times more exp? No? If not, you're not really against slow kills, you're against low rewards.

I think you need to do the following:

A. Fight mobs that are level appropriate
B. Level up a bit more
C. Roll a Job that's less Bursty

more lock inc
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/816...20704at064.png

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Originally Posted by Luxanna

more lock inc
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/816...20704at064.png

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Yeah, the more people respond with off-topic and inflammatory replies, the more likely it'll get closed.

Wow, I'm so surprised no one's noticed that before! [/sarc]