Please Restrict tank classes from wearing strength jewelry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

For those of us who are probably wondering about, y'know context, I have the answer! I was in that particular party with the OP so I took a screenshot before the tank was raised, I couldn't believe how fast the tank tanked the floor:
http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/a...tanksfault.png

This is clearly that WAR's fault for using STR only gear.

Seriously, though, it would have been nice to get some context... unless context would kill the OP's argument... just like 3 mobs on a STR only tank.

---

This is the best thing ever! Thank you for sharing this lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moonlite

Before they didn't seem to have a plan and had agro scale to dps. More dps was more agro. But if going forward they plan to adjust each gear cycle and this is part of a road map it would be way easier to control. A naked tank could still hold hate. Other mechanics would get them. But hate wouldn't have to be discussed about dpsing out gearing some tanks.

A better dev team would discuss the road map for tanking. Like it or hate it players can work within the system. Instead we will see some item they can show off to see if they can sell in the SE store. But right now we have oh no hate/dps and oh no tanks care to much about numbers. What if all the hate skills were like flash with 0 dps would people do them?

Tanking population has at least a % that don't care about tanks they are there to dps and get fast ques. Enough of those people are out in the duty finder to cause friction and paint people who str in a bad light.

---

See, I've seen what happens when you increase damage greatly and you have a tanking class that depends more on its skills to generate aggro (no stances) and a tanking class that has a tank stance that is just a multiplier on top of damage. The former had a lot of trouble holding aggro while the latter had a much easier time holding aggro. As I said, it's just far more organic to have tank DPS scale with damage dealer DPS. However, if that's what SE wants and is willing to do going forward, then I don't see too much of a problem with it. And well, if you're naked you probably won't live even if you can hold aggro.

Probably not, because if I may be quite blunt, tanking is boring in this game. I do agree there are people who play tank just to get fast queues and don't care about tanking.

http://i.imgur.com/8uDO2NJ.png

Tanks in STR gear and Healers being able to DPS are not mutually exclusive. A bad tank or a bad healer or, twelve forbid, both combined create these scenarios.

In full 270 STR and without tank stance on I can self mitigate the castless cleavebusters to not drop below 50% for any of them. If I get an aspected bene shield or an adlo beforehand, it barely moves my hp bar. How many VIT tanks have you seen drop to 15% after a cleavebuster in phase one? Let alone stormsplitters not dropping me below 30%. I can easily survive 5+ seconds after a stormsplitter with only my own mitigation. Yes it's a problem if you're trying to do this without the requisite skill level, but just like you'd yell at a bad healer or a bad DPS you've got every right to be pissed at a bad tank too.

I mean seriously tanks are in such a sorry affair right now that they have to continually incentivise us to get into roulettes. I have 1000x more fun on my bard than I do on my DRK, but I can promise you that I am easier to heal than 99% of the VIT tanks you've run across, and I increase the speed at which the content is completed. It's not just a minor gain. It's the difference between 1600 dps and 2600 dps on a single target boss in 4 man dungeons, and I'm not sacrificing my healer's DPS to do it. I'm even throwing out shields on mechanics to give them more DPS GCDs.

They need to fix the stats on tanks, but in the mean time don't go punishing the good tanks for the crap the bad ones pull.

Going backwards and scaling tank damage off STR again was a horrible decision for this expansion.

Of course damage-centric tanks are going to try their best to find workarounds to buff their DPS with STR.
To fix tank stats, what they need to do is scale damage off VIT and remove all scaling from STR.

This would put tanks back in the position of all other roles in the game. Their primary role stat also increases their damage. You don't see healers stacking INT to nuke harder (because Cleric stance before this, and now damage scaling off MND).
It would further remove the very one-directional right side melding of STR on VIT accessories and vice verser. You might actually see some substats being melded on tank accessories for a change...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

They need to fix the stats on tanks, but in the mean time don't go punishing the good tanks for the crap the bad ones pull.

---

You sound like my favorite kind of tank and player in general because you care enough to be great at your job. The issue here is definitely not you. Tanks wearing STR is not with people who can complete endgame content but I saw it in action in my FC not long ago.

Our leaders are old raiders, one of them has a world first I think. He was talking about this controversy. He is of a similar opinion to you. My boyfriend mained DRG up until a few months ago when he switched to WAR and he does a good job but there is definitely room for improvment.

My boyfriend equipped his 270 STR accessories without telling me and did a double pull which he's done plenty of times before in the level 67 dungeon and was dead after one Cure 2 and before Bene could hit him. I think he stood in the edge of an AoE but that is neither here nor there.

Experienced, skilled, comfortable tanks can do their job with STR on and benefit from it. A strong healer can also pump out a ton of DPS in almost any content. That doesn't mean that it's for everyone though.

The end result is a lot of newer and weaker tanks taking the advice they've heard from their big brothers and punishing healers who get stuck with them in roulettes. Just like people say in the great healer DPS debate that never ends you need to do your primary job first before you can expand. If I can't keep my tank alive my Holy spam is kinda meaningless, STR accessories are just another iteration of this same issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

Tanks in STR gear and Healers being able to DPS are not mutually exclusive. A bad tank or a bad healer or, twelve forbid, both combined create these scenarios.

In full 270 STR and without tank stance on I can self mitigate the castless cleavebusters to not drop below 50% for any of them. If I get an aspected bene shield or an adlo beforehand, it barely moves my hp bar. How many VIT tanks have you seen drop to 15% after a cleavebuster in phase one? Let alone stormsplitters not dropping me below 30%. I can easily survive 5+ seconds after a stormsplitter with only my own mitigation. Yes it's a problem if you're trying to do this without the requisite skill level, but just like you'd yell at a bad healer or a bad DPS you've got every right to be pissed at a bad tank too.

I mean seriously tanks are in such a sorry affair right now that they have to continually incentivise us to get into roulettes. I have 1000x more fun on my bard than I do on my DRK, but I can promise you that I am easier to heal than 99% of the VIT tanks you've run across, and I increase the speed at which the content is completed. It's not just a minor gain. It's the difference between 1600 dps and 2600 dps on a single target boss in 4 man dungeons, and I'm not sacrificing my healer's DPS to do it. I'm even throwing out shields on mechanics to give them more DPS GCDs.

They need to fix the stats on tanks, but in the mean time don't go punishing the good tanks for the crap the bad ones pull.

---

This is exactly how I feel. It sucks feeling like I'm being punished because shitty players don't know what they're doing, but oh well. I'll probably just quit tanking if things keep going down this road, I need to play something that makes me feel rewarded for caring about being good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hruodig

This is exactly how I feel. It sucks feeling like I'm being punished because shitty players don't know what they're doing, but oh well. I'll probably just quit tanking if things keep going down this road, I need to play something that makes me feel rewarded for caring about being good.

---

Bard is fun and rewarding. There's lots of minmaxing to be done that you feel rewarded for. Samurai too. RDM a bit simple but fun none the less. Even the materias being offered for leveling roulettes are feeling ehhh to me. Once I get my 200 61+ clears for my armored edge panther I might drop DRK.

I'd like to know what kind of tanks you guys are running with? I mean my personal experience on my Warrior with 5 slaying 270 accesories has been night and day in terms of damage. Beating bad DPS players sitting in the low 2000s while OT while still being able to MT with relative ease with proper cooldowns and mitigation. I see all those posts lately complaining about Str tanks. I mean you realise they gain over 400 str while using only str accesories? It's not some minor damage increase to get 400+ more AP.

I would stop wearing them if it didn't put me in top 3 dps while farming Omega. I mean if dps are not gonna do their job, tanks need to step up.

I'm curious to just how much of a party DPS increase it truly amounts to when having more HP also means the healers can spend more time DPSing before they need to heal you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wizhard

EHP is irrelevant to incoming damage, its a value of what damage you can take before you die.

You have 1000 hp. You use Rampart. Now you have 1200 EHP.
You have 1000 hp. You equip an accessory with 200 hp. Now you have 1200 EHP.

Amusing fact - at 36000 hp with slaying you will get more EHP from equipping all Vit accessories compared to using Rampart.

---

Technically true, except that 1000 HP + Rampart is 1250 EHP and increasing EHP through mitigation is always better than through HP. The only time this is not true is when an attack ignores all defenses or there is zero healing sources.

Amusing fact: HP accessory tank will always die in a 30 second fight or mini phase with 480 enemy DPS with a 400 HPS healer (in 15 seconds no less), while the rampart one will always survive with the same healer.

I don't see the problem. I was just leveling my healers and came across lots of tanks with STR accessories. I didn't have an issue keeping them alive even with big pulls, and on top i still could dps. Maybe I am just so used to old 2.x were tanks with vit accessories were kicked to make room for the real tanks, or maybe I just know the dungeons in and out and know when to precast heals and when I can go do something else. Not sure, but yea I don't see the problem, in fact I do love the switch. This whole Vit stuff in HW was just wrong.

Idea:

Put Strength in the new Tank Jewelry. I've solved all the problems, SE hire me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

And then when people actually do that and complain about the queues, the same people that told them to play a DPS then end up telling them to just play a tank/healer if they dislike the queues.

You just can't win there.

---

What's more important to you? Your numbers or your queue time? Because those people who tell you to play tank/ healer of you hate your queue time so much have accepted that dps queue times are long are wondering why /you/ don't seem to know that.

TANKS DONT NEED STR "GEAR" ANY MORE, THERE DAMGE IS BASD OFF THERE VIT NOW.. HAS BEEN FOR A LONG TIME! Stop Useing Str gear you noobs!

(Ps, out side of adding Str melds to acc, bec you CANT ADD VIT, is the only time you have/or add Str to ANY tank gear srt is a back up stat to VIT for tanks... Max VIT 1st over All Stats then add Str after VIT is maxed)

if tanks are still using 270 STR accessories...they don't know how to tank effectively. Sorry.

This is what happens when someone takes a reddit thread about STR too seriously.

Have fun getting one shot in tank buster raids.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunaFaye

I don't see the problem. I was just leveling my healers and came across lots of tanks with STR accessories. I didn't have an issue keeping them alive even with big pulls, and on top i still could dps. Maybe I am just so used to old 2.x were tanks with vit accessories were kicked to make room for the real tanks, or maybe I just know the dungeons in and out and know when to precast heals and when I can go do something else. Not sure, but yea I don't see the problem, in fact I do love the switch. This whole Vit stuff in HW was just wrong.

---

the best healer in the world cannot prevent a tank getting one shot in an omega tank buster. sorry

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Annah

the best healer in the world cannot prevent a tank getting one shot in an omega tank buster. sorry

---

Lost count how many time I seen tank get one shot, by tank busters in 4.0 for Useing Str gear.. noobs the lot of you. It not my job to heal your low hp any more.

lol they'll figure it out when people start complaining to them to gear like a tank in Omega. I think this "science" experiment will be coming to an end pretty soon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hazuki87

TANKS DONT NEED STR "GEAR" ANY MORE, THERE DAMGE IS BASD OFF THERE VIT NOW.. HAS BEEN FOR A LONG TIME! Stop Useing Str gear you noobs!

(Ps, out side of adding Str melds to acc, bec you CANT ADD VIT, is the only time you have/or add Str to ANY tank gear srt is a back up stat to VIT for tanks... Max VIT 1st over All Stats then add Str after VIT is maxed)

---

In case you missed the Stormblood patch notes, VIT no longer factors in attack stat, which is why this discussion came up again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mavrias

What's more important to you? Your numbers or your queue time?

---

Personally, I'm asking the question: Why not both?

You could remove tanks and healers from the game entirely without fundamental gameplay changes if you wanted, because tanks and healers are conceptually selfish roles that only exist for their own sake. And if you don't want to go that far, you can simply open more DPS slots if there is a DPS surplus - very easily in fact, as you only need to increase mob HP. It's not like with off-tanks where you actually need to create extra soak, swap or add mechanics. There is no need for there to be a tradeoff in the first place. That tradeoff exists for arbitrary political reasons, not because anything necessitates it.

And because of that, one shouldn't accept it. That would be mindless.

Fun fact, the tank swap mechanic was introduced in 2.x because war was seen as inferior and groups were solo tanking content. That's why we still have that stupid mechanic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

Bard is fun and rewarding. There's lots of minmaxing to be done that you feel rewarded for. Samurai too. RDM a bit simple but fun none the less. Even the materias being offered for leveling roulettes are feeling ehhh to me. Once I get my 200 61+ clears for my armored edge panther I might drop DRK.

---

Bard does look pretty fun! I'm planning on getting that to 70 as my ranged dps. I just got ninja to 70 too and I'm having a lot of fun with it, will probably do sam next.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gravton

Fun fact, the tank swap mechanic was introduced in 2.x because war was seen as inferior and groups were solo tanking content. That's why we still have that stupid mechanic.

---

More like people were bringing double paladin... The tank swap were a thing because of debuffs stoping you from continuing to tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Praesul

I'm really sad that they removed parry.

Means I can't call full vit tanks "parry princesses". :(

(And I say this as someone who can't be assed using str accessories this expansion)

---

Tenacity Tycoons

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neophyte

We will see. Right now with the unwanted WAR at least holmganging a mechanic every 3 min or 2x every 3 min with 2x WAR is not a thing anymore in every group.

We'll see. I still think that in Alexander savage STR tanks (with no VIT acc) wouldn't have been very succesfull, even if they had a +15% damage buff when doing that.

Why should it be different now?

I mean, proof me wrong and do a no-echo ilvl 245 clear in slaying gear in A9s and tell me if it's easier or more effective than going full VIT.

---

Tanks went full slaying in A3S and A4S, which are way way harder than A9S pre nerf. Like are you purposely stupid?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cirith

So this tank goes in pulls 1 group of 3 monsters, takes 3 hits and died before the heal can be off. I'm on my dps watching this tank wearing all strength jewelry and I'm like are you serious why would you wear dps jewelry as a tank?

---

You are ignorant af. You have no idea why a tank would wear them. So don't comment on the issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Annah

if tanks are still using 270 STR accessories...they don't know how to tank effectively. Sorry.

This is what happens when someone takes a reddit thread about STR too seriously.

Have fun getting one shot in tank buster raids.

---

I'll do what it takes to win, and when winning is no longer an issue, I'll do what it takes to maximize my damage output.

That doesn't make me a bad tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AxlStream

More like people were bringing double paladin... The tank swap were a thing because of debuffs stoping you from continuing to tank.

---

The debuff is the tank swap mechanic....or am I missing something. People brought double paladin until they realized they could safely tank with one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Annah

if tanks are still using 270 STR accessories...they don't know how to tank effectively. Sorry.

This is what happens when someone takes a reddit thread about STR too seriously.

Have fun getting one shot in tank buster raids.

---

No current content can one shot a Slaying tank who mitigates properly. Susano, Lakshmi, Omega bosses-- nothing. Don't presume to know a role you clearly do not play. Should this change when Savage releases, tanks who raid will adjust. If it's still possible without impacting healer DPS too negatively, the Slaying meta will live on. The problem isn't STR tanks but people who aren't good with cooldown management or undergeared trying to follow instead of adapting to their skill set and improving gradually.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Annah

the best healer in the world cannot prevent a tank getting one shot in an omega tank buster. sorry

---

Hmm....I had a full 310 left side and the Omega tankbuster is 35K with two stacks(max it goes) unmitigated. I don't actually wear STR in PUG groups but when I do wear it, I have 35K HP. So....if the tank mitigates everytime they would actually live as long as healers paid attention and pre casted cure during TB cast or used insta cast heals. Susanoo EX hits MUCH harder unmitigated tankbusters in phase 3 than those in Omega and STR tanks have already been pulling that off for weeks now. So....don't use lies to push your agenda.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

chopped

---

IKR as a paladin MT str I would use sheltron timed the usage at phase one on the swipe it's always so rewarding when pulled off

When the first stormspliter happen I just hallowground and remain in sword oath most of the time even when after swap I still remain in sword oath because there is no need for it

Only when taking stormspliter on the second time when hallow ground is on cd I switch to shield oath and rampart and sheltron I take basically no damage lol

Swap back to sword straight after

DPS running on 2.8k as a MT

Looking at another tank on vit he hitting for 1.5k

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Annah

the best healer in the world cannot prevent a tank getting one shot in an omega tank buster. sorry

---

A tank in i295 (the minimum ilevel for omega) in full vit gear has a health pool of 38900 give or take a few for race/party bonus etc. A tank in full slaying gear has 35,600 hp give or take. A scholars adlo gives a 5500 shield, a white mages divine benison gives a 15% hp shield. On a tank with 35k hp, both will have over 40k hp from shields putting them at above a vit tank with base ilvl gear. Don't blame a tank for contributing above and beyond their call of duty because you don't want to play a healer competently.

I think I might've stated this already but I think the best solution would be to just put STR on current fending accessories. Locking them probably isn't the best idea, because what if your inventory and retainer is full and you're wearing the i270 slaying acc? How does that work? If you just make the current fending accessories better, players won't use the i270 ones anymore.

Although it comes with a few problems.
http://imgur.com/a/jXDex

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YitharV2

Locking them probably isn't the best idea, because what if your inventory and retainer is full and you're wearing the i270 slaying acc? How does that work?

---

To accomodate that, just add an "Accessory Recovery" option to the Calamity Salvager. Any accessories unequipped by the change are automatically sent there for recovery. Have a pop-up when the person next logs in to say "Hey, just so you know, your accessories have been sent here. Please collect them at your earliest convenience." - it also then deals with the matter of a full inventory + retainers when this change happens.