Criticism on Stormblood's Monk

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Originally Posted by ULoki

Why not if you use form stance on top of changing stance, you also get a GL stack? That way it will be very hard to lose GL even if they don't fix perfect balance timer...

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That is actually not a bad idea considering that is exactly what form stance does in pvp.

I'm really curious when or if they'll ever address the monk issues before the next expansion, since they say if it pulls the good DPS numbers, it must be okay.

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Originally Posted by Xaert

I'm really curious when or if they'll ever address the monk issues before the next expansion, since they say if it pulls the good DPS numbers, it must be okay.

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Actually, during the recent live letter during the Duty Replay feature, it appeared that the Monk cast Brotherhood and was effected by it. In the grand scheme of things this is one of the least important changes they could make to the job, especially compared to basic functionality stuff like how bad Greased Lightning is to upkeep compared to other jobs' equivalent buffs or how bad Monk performs outside of any composition other than all physical DPS 8-man comp, but its something.

I'll be honest, I haven't kept up with MNK these last couple of months. But say Brotherhood did apply to the MNK, I'd hope it couldn't be overwritten by another MNK in the party. Last I experienced that's what happened if you had more than one MNK.

It should be treated more like Embolden, in that they aren't overwritten if there's more than one being used.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Actually, during the recent live letter during the Duty Replay feature, it appeared that the Monk cast Brotherhood and was effected by it. In the grand scheme of things this is one of the least important changes they could make to the job, especially compared to basic functionality stuff like how bad Greased Lightning is to upkeep compared to other jobs' equivalent buffs or how bad Monk performs outside of any composition other than all physical DPS 8-man comp, but its something.

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Heck, it's one that I'd rather they avoided, as it then becomes harder to time ideally or time around chakra and TFC specifically.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Actually, during the recent live letter during the Duty Replay feature, it appeared that the Monk cast Brotherhood and was effected by it.

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Oh, really? I'll have to check that out. I mean, it least it'll be SOMETHING if that were to actually be the case. I'd still like to see Yoshida acknowledge the malcontent from Monks and at least have him say they're working towards a solution rather than just "try it in Savage." I know the JP community isn't so happy or silent about it either, which really brings the silence from SE into question.

I really like the breakdown you've done of the changes to Monk throughout it's lifetime, and I agree, Monk is definitely in a bad spot as one of the now two "selfish" Melee DPS classes. I completely agree with you on the use Purification and how situational it is, and almost unneeded at this point, due to TP cost reductions. If anything, I'd like to see Purification be replaced with something to preserve GL, or at least maybe to remove it, but keep GL 3 stored until the next application of Greased lightning. I think would greatly improve the usability of Monks in boss fights where they lose GL stacks due to factors outside their control.

As it stands now, Monks are vastly outclassed by Samurai (Thanks 40k Direct Crits at level 70) and probably honestly need the same treatment as Black Mages need, a major damage boost to give them something to stay competitive with all the utility that other classes bring. It would truly be a shame to see such an iconic class fall by the wayside.

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Originally Posted by Namingwayfinder

I really like the breakdown you've done of the changes to Monk throughout it's lifetime, and I agree, Monk is definitely in a bad spot as one of the now two "selfish" Melee DPS classes. I completely agree with you on the use Purification and how situational it is, and almost unneeded at this point, due to TP cost reductions. If anything, I'd like to see Purification be replaced with something to preserve GL, or at least maybe to remove it, but keep GL 3 stored until the next application of Greased lightning. I think would greatly improve the usability of Monks in boss fights where they lose GL stacks due to factors outside their control.

As it stands now, Monks are vastly outclassed by Samurai (Thanks 40k Direct Crits at level 70) and probably honestly need the same treatment as Black Mages need, a major damage boost to give them something to stay competitive with all the utility that other classes bring. It would truly be a shame to see such an iconic class fall by the wayside.

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The raid dps Brotherhood brings+Monk's personal dps outweighs the raw dps a Samurai can provide. Not only that, diversion doesn't help aggro management enough for SAM, making tanks use more emnity combos, thus indirectly lowering raid dps. If anything Samurai are the ones who need more help. However, Monk is still in a garbage state right now so that needs help too.

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Originally Posted by Phireblast

The raid dps Brotherhood brings+Monk's personal dps outweighs the raw dps a Samurai can provide. Not only that, diversion doesn't help aggro management enough for SAM, making tanks use more emnity combos, thus indirectly lowering raid dps. If anything Samurai are the ones who need more help. However, Monk is still in a garbage state right now so that needs help too.

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That's actually not true, in the event of optimal Monk comp (all physical DPS) Monk's raid DPS is actually 100 below that of Samurai.. When Monk only has 3 Physical DPS, that difference is even wider, at almost a 250 DPS difference.

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Originally Posted by Phireblast

The raid dps Brotherhood brings+Monk's personal dps outweighs the raw dps a Samurai can provide. Not only that, diversion doesn't help aggro management enough for SAM, making tanks use more emnity combos, thus indirectly lowering raid dps. If anything Samurai are the ones who need more help. However, Monk is still in a garbage state right now so that needs help too.

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The talk about diversion is pointless too, Sams could forgoe diversion altogether and shirk is still enough extra enmity to prevent aggro combos, not even counting ninjas and all that

My issues with monk arent even damage related anyway, my issues with monk arent even related to the useless skills weve gotten, no. moreso its related to the one of two useful skills we DID get. Riddle of fire.

I hate it, its a garbage skill and it ruins the feeling of a monk.


in my opinion How To Fix Monk - Remove riddle of fire. done.

See, Phireblast, the thing is, Warriors have higher potency on the last attack in their enmity combo, Butcher's Block. Butcher's Block is 10 potency stronger than both Storm's Path or Storm's Eye, which is why you see Warriors use it in a rotation, even as offtanks. Paladin and Dark Knight however, you are correct about with enmity combos lowering their overall dps. Blanket statements like, "More enmity combos from tanks lower dps" can be wrong, and I suggest you tell whoever told you this that they may want to do their research.

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Originally Posted by Namingwayfinder

See, Phireblast, the thing is, Warriors have higher potency on the last attack in their enmity combo, Butcher's Block. Butcher's Block is 10 potency stronger than both Storm's Path or Storm's Eye, which is why you see Warriors use it in a rotation, even as offtanks. Paladin and Dark Knight however, you are correct about with enmity combos lowering their overall dps. Blanket statements like, "More enmity combos from tanks lower dps" can be wrong, and I suggest you tell whoever told you this that they may want to do their research.

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you dont use butchers block as OT anymore, ever. u lose 10 rage everytime u dont path.

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Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

you dont use butchers block as OT anymore, ever. u lose 10 rage everytime u dont path.

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And 10 of Warriors gauge is functionally 100 potency from Fell Cleave.

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Originally Posted by Namingwayfinder

See, Phireblast, the thing is, Warriors have higher potency on the last attack in their enmity combo, Butcher's Block. Butcher's Block is 10 potency stronger than both Storm's Path or Storm's Eye, which is why you see Warriors use it in a rotation, even as offtanks. Paladin and Dark Knight however, you are correct about with enmity combos lowering their overall dps. Blanket statements like, "More enmity combos from tanks lower dps" can be wrong, and I suggest you tell whoever told you this that they may want to do their research.

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Path is up to a 90 (Zerk-IR effective 140) potency gain over Butcher's Block via the additional Beast Gauge generated.

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Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

you dont use butchers block as OT anymore, ever. u lose 10 rage everytime u dont path.

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I do believe Phireblast was talking about main tanking, but since neither of us know exactly whether it was a main tank or off tank (despite the heavy implication that since SAM does more threat than diversion can cover, said tanks having to use more enmity combos would most likely be the main tanks, as tank switches often happen with Provoke/Shirk combo from both tanks, nullifying the need of the offtank to even use enmity combos to grab aggro after a tank swap), I think we can agree that yes, as an OT you really shouldn't be using Butcher's Block, at least maybe not unless your MT doesn't have shirk and a tank swap is coming up.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

And 10 of Warriors gauge is functionally 100 potency from Fell Cleave.

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Yes, I understand how the math behind Beast Gauge generation works in equivalence to potency, I've browsed the FF14 Reddit page and seen the math for myself, as well as practiced on dummies and on Stone, Sky, Sea challenges. Frankly, for anyone who's played WAR since ARR like me, this is inherently understood by simply playing the class while trying to maximise DPS. While I appreciate the want to help people understand min/maxer mindset and promote highest quality play from other players, I don't remember saying anywhere that Butcher's Block was the end all be all combo ender because it has 10 higher potency.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Path is up to a 90 (Zerk-IR effective 140) potency gain over Butcher's Block via the additional Beast Gauge generated.

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Refer to the above quote. Once again, nowhere did I say I was the authority on WAR and my opinion is the only right one. In the last two or so months I have met many players though, at least in my datacenter, that like to make very generalized statements based off of limited experience, and I would like that to stop, as many new players (with the leaf next to their name and everything) that they spout nonsense to believe it right off the bat and never look for themselves, which I dislike greatly due to the fact it promotes both ignorance in the playerbase and is factually incorrect.


EDIT: Yes I know eventually the new players would find out for themselves, but I've had a lot of the new players in my FC bullied in level 50/60 dungeons for staying in tank stance and using enmity combos when they are brand new to the dungeon and not confident of their tanking and that really rankles me to see the discouraged from tanking when tanks aren't the most prolific class, and more tanks only make everyone's DF's and PF's fill up faster. And yes, I know I could have simply asked him to clarify, my wording was not the best, but hindsight is 20/20 and even in hindsight I don't really think I needed to be scolded on how to play my class, especially over what is, at best, an assumption on everyone's part(including my own) that we know exactly what was going through another person's head when they made a vague statement that needed clarification.

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Originally Posted by Namingwayfinder

Refer to the above quote. Once again, nowhere did I say I was the authority on WAR and my opinion is the only right one. In the last two or so months I have met many players though, at least in my datacenter, that like to make very generalized statements based off of limited experience, and I would like that to stop, as many new players (with the leaf next to their name and everything) that they spout nonsense to believe it right off the bat and never look for themselves, which I dislike greatly due to the fact it promotes both ignorance in the playerbase and is factually incorrect.

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The only problem there is you picked the one argument that doesn't have a direct factual counter. In ALL cases, enmity combos are a DPS loss, at least until such time as you'd lose rDPS because of your damage-dealers getting picked off due to your low enmity. And that's pretty well been taken care of via Shirk so long as you have a NIN and no SAM (or Monk, if they're good enough).

THAT blanketing statement is technically correct in all cases, and trying uninformedly to throw smoke onto any one of those cases to change the result does truth no favors.

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Originally Posted by Namingwayfinder

I do believe Phireblast was talking about main tanking

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But you even said to use Butchers as OT, which is what i was commenting on. So we apparently cant agree as you were wrong.

Plus the above post said it well, enmity combos for all tanks are a dps loss, which goes against your statement.


Dont tell people they need to do research before you research, yourself lol

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Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

But you even said to use Butchers as OT, which is what i was commenting on. So we apparently cant agree as you were wrong.

Plus the above post said it well, enmity combos for all tanks are a dps loss, which goes against your statement.


Dont tell people they need to do research before you research, yourself lol

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Well being rude won't make you any more right, and it certainly won't make your argument any more sound. Apparently you're unfamiliar with certain terminology so I'll explain something that may have confused you into assuming things I never said and putting words in my mouth that were never there. Not once did I say all WAR OTs need to or should use Butcher's Block as part of a normal rotation. I specifically said that the higher potency is why you see some tanks use it in tank rotation. The use of the word rotation was probably a poor choice, but I will explain what I meant so you can stop your "my epeen is bigger you stoopid" argument. When I said rotation, I guess I should have clarified that rotation in that context was for when you're rotating tanks due to specific mechanics that force tanks to change targets, AKA a tank swap. Except in the case of very few encounters in the game, where both tanks need to swap between themselves but hold the enemies in the same position, AKA rotate tanking targets. I simplified the thought to fit character limit so I wouldn't go back into edit mode and write a damn novel, but come now, this is a flimsy, grasping at straws argument from you and poor clarification from me, can you leave it at that and move on from your fixation to feign superiority to somebody over the internet? It's not helping you look any smarter than your lack of reading did.

TL;DR: I didn't explain myself clearly, you inferred a lot of things that weren't said, we both look like idiots now. Happy?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The only problem there is you picked the one argument that doesn't have a direct factual counter. In ALL cases, enmity combos are a DPS loss, at least until such time as you'd lose rDPS because of your damage-dealers getting picked off due to your low enmity. And that's pretty well been taken care of via Shirk so long as you have a NIN and no SAM (or Monk, if they're good enough).

THAT blanketing statement is technically correct in all cases, and trying uninformedly to throw smoke onto any one of those cases to change the result does truth no favors.

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Well, I'll admit to not being very clear on my verbage, peruse post above for hindsight being 20/20 and me realizing I use outdated terminology out of habit. To put it simply, you are correct, if you'll notice I actually agreed with the point that yes, enmity combos are definitely a loss to overall dps in the first response to LeeraSorlan

And while we're on the subject of picking the least factually countered argument, trying to pick apart an anecdote is like trying to kill yourself by holding your breath, it kind of doesn't work and suffocates you before you come to the resolution you want. Yes, I used an anecdote that demonstrated that I very much dislike broad generalizations because they can be factually incorrect. Yet I never tried to argue any point other than the fact that generalized statements, like the one the person I was originally responding to, can have small nuances that may actually be incorrect. Look at the whole fiasco over the Blackest Night for DRK in 4.05, how a large part of the community held the idea that it was a DPS gain when, once the math was done and equivalated, it actually turned out to be a DPS loss.

TL;DR: You're doing exactly what the LeeraSorlan did, in essence, making a mountain out of a molehill for reasons that you derived both from my poor clarification and and multiple assumptions and inferences on your part that weren't there in any statement I made. Now can we please stop arguing about WAR and talk about MNK, like the thread was originally about? I feel bad for the people that had to sit through this elitist, "holier than thou because I can't admit I may have misunderstood something" attitude.

Yes, let's keep this about Monk.

Are we hopeful for a ROF / Tackle Mastery change for 4.2? Any nuggets of rumor falling off the giving tree?

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Originally Posted by BucklesTrespen

Yes, let's keep this about Monk.

Are we hopeful for a ROF / Tackle Mastery change for 4.2? Any nuggets of rumor falling off the giving tree?

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They've said nothing, the only indication we have of any change is brotherhood affecting the Monk during the footage of the Battle Replay feature. I don't have particularly high hopes because for whatever reason they have a reluctance to balance Monk compared to other jobs which they're more than happy to break at the minorest of grumbling.

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Originally Posted by Namingwayfinder

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you are just trying to save face. You were wrong and thats ok.Just do you research next time. No hostility

You didnt specifically say wars NEED or SHOULD use butchers as OT(thou it is implied to a degree), however you are constantly contradicting your own words each time you post.. The base arguement is that you say not all tanks lose dmg when they use there enmity combo...because wars biutchers block is 10 more potency, that is incorrect..now you are trying to backpedal into saying you meant wars only use enmity combo as OT for tank swaps..which can be true to a degree, but its not the base of the arguement, the argue and the only arguement is that "Not all tanks lose damage when they use enmity combos" which is factually incorreect, thats all the arguement is..you are wrong, im not being rude im simply trying to make sure wrong information does not get spread by the uninformed.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

They've said nothing, the only indication we have of any change is brotherhood affecting the Monk during the footage of the Battle Replay feature. I don't have particularly high hopes because for whatever reason they have a reluctance to balance Monk compared to other jobs which they're more than happy to break at the minorest of grumbling.

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I get why they do that with tank and healer jobs since they want to keep people playing those roles, but it does feel like a bit of a slap in the face when WHM had their lilies adjusted before Stormblood even launched due to complaints, and WAR had their utility skills adjusted within one patch.

My personal hope is that they adjust the proc rate of chakra stacks from deep meditation. Mostly I compare this to BRD's repertoire skill that procs on every crit dot tick, and they have two going at all times. That gives them a chance for a repertoire proc ever 1.5 seconds. Monk has a higher GCD than that even with greased lightning, and only gets a proc 50% of the time on a crit. So bring that in line with bard. Give us a 100% chance of a chakra stack on a critical hit.

Also I would hope they eliminate tackle mastery and maybe let us bank more than 5 chakras as a trait at that level. Make is so that if we would get a 6th chakra stack from Brotherhood before we can use Forbidden Chakra, those extra stacks bank towards the next one. Also I would like to see some adjustment to ROE, potentially one that refreshes greased lightning upon execution and then again upon taking damage. This would make jump phases more bearable and/or reduce the cooldown on perfect balance to be more in line with blood of the dragon and enochian.

From the recent impromptu Q and A Yoshi did on a few JP servers.

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Q. Monk?

A. Monk is a tough topic, but we are considering adjusting it. Please wait for the details.

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They are considering adjusting it, but I don't know why it's a "tough topic". The feedback for Stormblood Monk has been uniformly negative and it's clear rate for most content is in the same ballpark as Black Mage.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

From the recent impromptu Q and A Yoshi did on a few JP servers.

They are considering adjusting it, but I don't know why it's a "tough topic". The feedback for Stormblood Monk has been uniformly negative and it's clear rate for most content is in the same ballpark as Black Mage.

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I have to wonder if anyone on the dev staff even plays monk.... if they did, the problems would be pretty apparent, and the whole mess of Tackle Mastery might have been avoided.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

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Its probably because they dont really know what direction to take it in..monk is monk, its more or less the same as HW monk, with a few exceptions, the only real thing sad about monk is that most of our SB skills are useless..so do they fix those? or do they just give us more potency. its hit or miss..i highly doubt they will adjust the useless skills drastically enough to change how we play the job. which is good for people like me who want the rotation to stay the same, im not going to comment on GL3 Upkeek as i personally have had very few times ive been forced to drop GL3 (susano, lakhmi, rofocale to name the very few) in SB so far, sure RoE is clunky and contradicts Tornado kick..sure it could be better, but theres more places id ather them focus on for monk instead of making it easier o keep GL3.

There are alot of obvious fixes, remove the RNG crit aspect (except within brotherhood) for chakras...fix riddle of fire because i personally hate it. But what would they do with the rest? it has to be something theyd consider, not what fans interpretations want it to be.


im not really saying its a hard thing to do, but it feels like its divided between do we actually change how skills work or do we just give them more potency and a minor QoL.

Ive seen alot of suggestions, some i agree with some i dont...make the stances give unique benefits is something i disagree with..infact id sooner they just remove stances complety and force us into a fist of fire trait, because there will always be one stance thats the correct option and the others will be ignored. idk. im probably not the best to comment on monk anyway, i do main the job, but i have very few issues with it outside of RoF, useless skills being useless, they are at least ignorable and dont ruin the core system of the job like RoF does for me


As it stands..im happy-ish with monk..i wish some things were done differently...but the job is still great fun. and they know how to ruin jobs for sure, so who knows

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Originally Posted by BucklesTrespen

Yes, let's keep this about Monk.

Are we hopeful for a ROF / Tackle Mastery change for 4.2? Any nuggets of rumor falling off the giving tree?

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Per Yoshi-P according to: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ited_masamune/

Q. Monk?

A. Monk is a tough topic, but we are considering adjusting it. Please wait for the details.

Sadly IMHO, it sounds like they don't know what to do.

They haven't known what to do since 3.0 lol. It feels like the plan is "ignore monk and hope its problems magically go away" :c

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Originally Posted by echo78

They haven't known what to do since 3.0 lol. It feels like the plan is "ignore monk and hope its problems magically go away" :c

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i doubt that is their plan anymore, mostly because at every chance, someone gets to ask them something about monk, they had trying to dodge such questions, but yosida probably had got tired of such questions and probably ordered to make some kind of change to monk, you know, anyone could get tired to get asked the same thing if people keeps bringing it up, so kinda if they want to stop such questions they had to do something about monk

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Originally Posted by echo78

They haven't known what to do since 3.0 lol. It feels like the plan is "ignore monk and hope its problems magically go away" :c

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What was wrong with 3.0 monk? 3.0 monk was perfect imo

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Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

What was wrong with 3.0 monk? 3.0 monk was perfect imo

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This. Still had full modular control, many more skill-speed tiers able to use non-standardized rotations, and had a very strong out-of-range filler skill. There were improvements that could have been further made -- especially to certain recast times, but it was without a doubt the best gameplay Monks have had, despite many fundamental issues in regards to TP or certain fights' designs leaving it out to dry.

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Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

What was wrong with 3.0 monk? 3.0 monk was perfect imo

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He wasn't saying that anything was wrong with 3.0 Monk, he was saying that it seemed like the devs had no idea where to go from there. I'm inclined to agree, all of the Heavensward additions except Purification make sense on paper, and even if Tornado Kick in practice ended up being useless it was still overall a net positive.

I would not say the same of the Stormblood actions. Deep Meditation makes Meditation worse at mitigating damage loss in down phases, Riddle of Earth can flat out not work because damage takes too long to come out, there being no damage, the damage being avoidable requiring you to do something stupid, or you can just get screwed by a deployed Adlo. Riddle of Fire makes you go slow so naturally everyone hates it, and despite being designed to work with Brotherhood for doubleweaving the proc rate on Brotherhood is so abysmal that even in a full physical party comp it can still fail to give you one Forbidden Chakra. In 4-man's that percentage is 100%, you may as well not use Brotherhood there for all the good it does you.

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Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

What was wrong with 3.0 monk? 3.0 monk was perfect imo

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The problem with 3.0 monk wasn't so much that it was bad, but that the game evolved and the job didn't. We're seeing that same problem still in 4.0

Before Heavensward, selecting your DPS was a much bigger deal since you had MNK for fights with magic damage and you had other DPS for other fights. Then in Heavensward, DRK was introduced and that reason to bring a monk was gone. This was especially bad considering how much magic damage was in Alexander, so monks should have been great, but DRK was just used instead. This was also the time of the rise of the DRG-NIN-BRD/MCH meta which excluded the job entirely. Monk still brought high personal DPS, but it wasn't that much higher than other jobs to justify its presence, and a lot of the raid mechanics had to be adjusted for your monk so that they wouldn't lose greased lightning.

Come Stormblood and not only did monks lose their INT down utility for raid comps not using DRK, but they were also entirely overshadowed by SAM with their massive numbers. Monks got what we wanted as far as more raid utility and a way to get chakras in-battle, but it seems that they were just treading water with us. They gave us Brotherhood in exchange for eliminating our INT down. We now have exclusive access to Mantra, but there aren't many instances where that healing buff makes enough of a difference to change anything for healers. They gave us Deep Meditation in exchange for massively reducing the potency of Forbidden Chakra.

This isn't hard to fix, I just don't think they were really thinking when they were implementing changes to monk. There have been lots of ideas out there as to how to evolve the job, but it just hasn't been done, and now its been ignored for so long that it's becoming a problem.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This. Still had full modular control, many more skill-speed tiers able to use non-standardized rotations, and had a very strong out-of-range filler skill. There were improvements that could have been further made -- especially to certain recast times, but it was without a doubt the best gameplay Monks have had.

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I ran max SKS MNK in creator. There was no special "bootshine twice before doing DK again" rotation or anything like that. With max SKS you could rotate fracture and TOD with literally every DK/snakes cycle. You'd also run out of TP in literally 2 minutes without goad or purification (rip TFC). You could modify the opener to use fracture before TOD during perfect balance (IIRC I needed at least 950+ SKS to do this). Depending on the fight you could also do less or no form shifts to refresh GL3 (the transition from phase 1 to 2 in Zurvan EX and inception in A12S being examples).

But if you cared about doing as much DPS as possible then the best SKS tier for MNK in HW was as little SKS as possible. If the whole "lol no TP" thing wasn't a problem back in HW then running a high SKS build could have actually been somewhat viable.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

He wasn't saying that anything was wrong with 3.0 Monk, he was saying that it seemed like the devs had no idea where to go from there. I'm inclined to agree, all of the Heavensward additions except Purification make sense on paper, and even if Tornado Kick in practice ended up being useless it was still overall a net positive.

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Oh, there was a ton wrong with HW monk but talking about HW monk is pointless now :P HW monk was fun, sure, but that doesn't change the fact it was the worst designed job in HW. Only DRK/AST (being meta doesn't mean they were well designed jobs) were even close to being as poorly designed as MNK imo.

When you compare what MNK has gotten in HW/SB with DRG and NIN it becomes painfully obvious they have no idea what to do with monk. DRG/NIN have gotten things that actually expand and improve DRG/NIN. MNK has gotten a variety of useless skills/traits (purification, tackle mastery, brotherhood when your not in a party), niche/situational skills (meditation/TFC in HW, form shift, riddle of earth, tornado kick), RNG skills that are automatically polarizing for a job that was previously based off skill and not luck (deep meditation, brotherhood) and skills that conflict with other parts of MNK (riddle of fire which might as well be B4B with a slow trait, earth tackle, tornado kick and riddle of earth again!). If I could I'd remove every HW/SB skill except for elixir field and form shift lol. Just blow it up and start over.

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Originally Posted by echo78

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I heavily disagree, monk in SB was one of the better jobs. i mean sure, if you wanted the monks rotation to change drastically, it was underwhelming, but for those of us like myself, who only wanted monk to get better QoL things and keep the monks core gameplay the same, then HW monk is one of the best designed jobs that came out of HW..

it literally gave me everything i wanted out of monk. the only real negative i could even see (which isnt a negative to me personally) was some fights made you lose GL3, and there was no getting around it, but it was few and far between so i didnt care. and chakra was a downtime gain only (tho i disagree with SBs RNG gain so it didnt work out here either) but it wasnt a big deal. Nothing else felt flat about monk

Elixier field was and is amazingg, Form shift is incredibly helpful, chakra was extra dps and tp gain, cant really hate on that. tornado kick was underwhelming as far as lvl 60 abilities go, but meh. HW monk was really just ARR monk, except 100% better.


SB monk is another thing altogether, and one i disagree with, if they deleted every SB skill from monk, i wouldnt be mad. i like the job, but its clear to see how they dont understand what monk wants and moving it away from the skill based gameplay of ARR and HW (its still skill but now its a bit of RNG too) and turning it into RNG was a bad idea, and slowing us down every minute and a half was also not a good idea.


Its hard to complain about HW monk, it was the perfect job to me

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Originally Posted by echo78

I ran max SKS MNK in creator. There was no special "bootshine twice before doing DK again" rotation or anything like that. With max SKS you could rotate fracture and TOD with literally every DK/snakes cycle. You'd also run out of TP in literally 2 minutes without goad or purification (rip TFC). You could modify the opener to use fracture before TOD during perfect balance (IIRC I needed at least 950+ SKS to do this). Depending on the fight you could also do less or no form shifts to refresh GL3 (the transition from phase 1 to 2 in Zurvan EX and inception in A12S being examples).

But if you cared about doing as much DPS as possible then the best SKS tier for MNK in HW was as little SKS as possible. If the whole "lol no TP" thing wasn't a problem back in HW then running a high SKS build could have actually been somewhat viable.

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Yes, TP was Monk's Achilles Heel in HW, without a doubt. I, too, built for max SKS, but frequently had to swap a benchmark lower to be even remotely sustainable, and had I been running with more serious statics, even that would not have been permitted.

But... there absolutely was a bootshine twice before DK rotation, so long as you let DK drop for Demolish and the following Dragon Kick. And that didn't even require max SKS. It just made it applicable in 1 additional rotational string per BFB period as opposed to the benchmark lower, and allowed DK-drops on DK alone (+/- ToD), thus allowing SP during the usual Demo drop stage with a slightly delayed ToD if a jump split your Demo from your DK and ToD timings, making it just beautifully lenient while still decisive, imo. Which is why it's just so great and horrible. The most perfect gameplay I'd ever seen in XIV, was a trap.

Oddly enough, though, it was also the one time that Purification almost made sense, if its recast time had just been massively reduced. And yet, what happened with its design once we entered the realm of infinite TP...?


To me -- though Tornado Kick, Meditation, and Purification all felt poorly tuned or lacked a finishing sensible retouch -- the only ability in HW not to augment Monk's tactical toolkit was Elixir Field, as there's nothing about it Howling Fist didn't do before and couldn't have been worked into potencies elsewhere -- not that I didn't love it. And then Stormblood design just went in the absolute direction. Rather than augmenting our ability for decisions, it's like they figured that complexity was somehow a matter of least control possible baseline while giving the most buttons possible in ability kits, no matter disfunctional or contradictory they were.

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Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

stuff

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I've spent more then enough time in the past talking about how HW MNK was a trainwreck on other forums and in game, I don't really feel like pointing out its never ending number of flaws again. If you thought the job was perfect then go ahead, people can have different opinions lol.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

stuff 2

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Doing 2 bootshines before DK was a DPS loss, even at high SKS. Its like trying to do 2 FT on DRG before refreshing CT. You could do it, sure, but it wasn't good.

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Originally Posted by echo78

I've spent more then enough time in the past talking about how HW MNK was a trainwreck on other forums and in game, I don't really feel like pointing out its never ending number of flaws again. If you thought the job was perfect then go ahead, people can have different opinions lol.

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No one's debating that it put Monk in an often horrible position relative to DRG and NIN or that it didn't suffer from severe technical or tuning issues. The gameplay was the point of praise here, nothing more.

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Originally Posted by echo78

Doing 2 bootshines before DK was a DPS loss, even at high SKS. Its like trying to do 2 FT on DRG before refreshing CT. You could do it, sure, but it wasn't good.

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Even if an AA fell within the DK-less period every time, Demo-Drop was still a potency gain of 28 to 35 potency (within currently available crit chances + BL), iirc. The relative potency gain was higher, even, if at higher stat portions of Determination, lower portions of Critical Strike.

A Demo Drop sacrifices 7 potency from Demolish, 9 to 9.4 from the AA, and 15 from Dragon Kick itself for an auto-crit (and two additional globals of DK coverage). At a 10 percent effective CSR bonus, that would amount to a nearly a 64 potency bonus or a net of 33 per 18 seconds (diminished over nonapplicable strings to roughly a 1.63 pps bonus). I'll agree fully that due to the sheer amount of oGCD damage in the Monk toolkit relative to how small that SkS rotational benchmark pps bonus is that SkS would have been non-optimal even with infinite TP, but I very, very consistently parsed higher using DK drops for 1 to 2 GCDs during max and near-max SkS tiers on applicable strings than by clipping DK by more significant portions, as I would otherwise have been forced to do. Monk macro- and micro-rotation have never had that much complexity before or after.

In the meanwhile, had Phlebotomize and Chaos Thrust DoTs combined had even just 40 potency less over their durations, double FT would have been optimal at as high as a 2.34 GCD. Though sadly, again, their benchmark thereafter by which it did in fact become viable was just as TP-prohibitive as Monk's DK-gap rotations.

The funny thing there is that if not for Lance Mastery, DRG would have actually seen some of that potential complexity returned to it with Stormblood, due to the removal of Phlebotomize, and yet the potency bonus occurring only on the second Dragon weaponskill removed, through the relative non-viability of any and all clipped combos, any chance of that. (We later got a deemphasis of HT that pushed towards it, but only after a further buff to LM that drove us away from any possible breakpoints by which to escape 1, 2-2-2-2-2, 3-3-3-3-3; repeat.)

I guess where you see a solely a trainwreck, I see something that got narrowly, narrowly close to potency values that would have allowed for far more interesting internal balance points by which to allow for available macrorotational complexity, and wanted to see the rotational variance they could have caused if that tuning were thus perfected, rather than the system gutted just to trim off "niche" potential gameplay. HW Monk was flawed, but damn did it have great potential, though sadly just to be crippled in SB -- in a better relative position numerically, but as if its very viscera had been trimmed and jumbled about randomly within.

My main issues with the class are:
1. It feels like it has lost its place
2. Most of the major changes to it are totally rng driven, if not rng ON TOP OF rng.
3. Probably biggest reason is my class has not felt like it has evolved at all since I played it in ARR.

My bread and butter is still the same 6 buttons over and over. Every other class has gotten meaningful abilities that add to their rotation. See dragoon fang and claw wheeling thrust and then the addition of lance mastery. See ninja 3rd finisher added in HW (armor crush) to reset huton. Literally every single ability I have received is button bloat and the core of my rotation is UNCHANGED since the release of the game.

That all said I have no gripes with my classes actual dps output, sure you can make the argument it should do more but I could actually give a fuck about how much dps it does at this point. My gripe is that my class isn't fun anymore and hasn't evolved in any meaningful way.

There are tons of ideas on this job that have been generated from these types of threads over the years on how to evolve the class. I would honestly be happy if they made a sandbox sever, implemented our ideas one at a time to see how they work, pick the ones that make the class enjoyable again, and then just change potencies until the job does exactly the same dps as it does now.