About Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches change

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Originally Posted by Furious

Let's flip that around:

If the game is in a state where it is more valuable to continue dpsing than to dispel debuffs as a healer, something is wrong. Healers should be dpsing in their downtime, but not in lieu of the job they are there for.

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I mean, I love the fact that as a Healer I can DPS when I need to/want to, but yeah.....if I need to dispel debuffs on a moment's notice, id rather have the means to do so all the time, and having to sacrifice a Cross Role slot to equip something that should by all accounts remain a built in ability to the Healers, is not very good design.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Let's flip that around:

If the game is in a state where it is more valuable to continue dpsing than to dispel debuffs as a healer, something is wrong. Healers should be dpsing in their downtime, but not in lieu of the job they are there for.

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Then tell SE to either make DoTs more dangerous, or to Nerf the passive healing of regens, because outside of Doom and a couple Savage fights, dispelling debuffs is nearly flat out worthless. Even at entry level I can ignore most DoTs by just activating Bloodbath, and even if I don't it's not like I'm gonna be taking anymore damage anyway. Using Esuna is just a waste of a GCD when I can get far greater returns by continuing to DPS.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Then tell SE to either make DoTs more dangerous, or to Nerf the passive healing of regens, because outside of Doom and a couple Savage fights, dispelling debuffs is nearly flat out worthless. Even at entry level I can ignore most DoTs by just activating Bloodbath, and even if I don't it's not like I'm gonna be taking anymore damage anyway. Using Esuna is just a waste of a GCD when I can get far greater returns by continuing to DPS.

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Cannot change everyones opinion Furious. But Esuna....a waste of a GCD? First off, what is the point in continuing to DPS if DoTs are so strong that they would kill someone in seconds, heals or no heals? You'd spend a huge amount of MP just healing someone through a DoT or other Status Effect that you could just Cleanse, believe me, I know, I just did a dungeon and made it harder on myself on purpose by not using Leeches on my party members EVER and it just made things harder on everyone, I didnt even summon Selene, just used Eos and Eos doesnt have a Cleanse.

Even IF it is doable to just heal people through DoTs, it none the less uses more MP then necessary cause of the excess damage, when you could spend the time to remove those DoTs and have an easier time keeping people alive, but if Healers wanna inconvenience their party just so they can add a little more damage rather then DO what their Role is intended for, when they ought to be, such as Healing and Cleansing, then fine.

While I am happy that Healers can bring a good bit of damage to the party, and I wouldnt wanna change this, it is none the less not their primary function.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

First off, what is the point in continuing to DPS if DoTs are so strong that they would kill someone in seconds, heals or no heals?

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As a counterpoint, what cleanable DoT in game is that strong? As a DPS I've purposely taken every DoT in the face just to count the damage done per tick, and there isn't a single one in game that does over 2k. That's chump change. That's the equivalent of healing the tank cause he has maybe 500 HP damage. It's a waste of MP, and any feelings to the contrary is factually akin to a placebo effect.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

As a counterpoint, what cleanable DoT in game is that strong? As a DPS I've purposely taken every DoT in the face just to count the damage done per tick, and there isn't a single one in game that does over 2k. That's chump change. That's the equivalent of healing the tank cause he has maybe 500 HP damage. It's a waste of MP, and any feelings to the contrary is factually akin to a placebo effect.

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Lets say for the sake of the argument that you are actually correct, what dungeons are you doing this in where the DoT damage is no danger? Give me a complete list of all these dungeons that you did this test of your's on, so I can go do them myself and see what happens.

Addendum: Btw, its not just DoTs that can pose a threat, DoTs combined with other things can equal excessive amounts of damage and there are status effects that when not taken care of, can actually slow people down, which if this is done to a DPS, it would slow their DPS down, thus making the fight last longer, Ive actually seen people die cause they had a Movement debuff on them that slowed them down so much, they couldnt get out of the way of a really heavy hitting attack in time. But again, give me a list of all these dungeons you did where the DoT damages were as pathetic as you are saying.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

As a counterpoint, what cleanable DoT in game is that strong? As a DPS I've purposely taken every DoT in the face just to count the damage done per tick, and there isn't a single one in game that does over 2k. That's chump change. That's the equivalent of healing the tank cause he has maybe 500 HP damage. It's a waste of MP, and any feelings to the contrary is factually akin to a placebo effect.

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Just to say it, Venomous Tail was incredibly dangerous when 2nd coil was the active raid tier. Also not all DPS have access to self-heals; MCHs for instance have none, and those that rely on Second Wind aren't all that much better. WARs though are pretty lulz. I actually encourage you to ignore the dots you can as a WAR, because that's part of the charm of the class.

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

Just to say it, Venomous Tail was incredibly dangerous when 2nd coil was the active raid tier. Also not all DPS have access to self-heals; MCHs for instance have none, and those that rely on Second Wind aren't all that much better. WARs though are pretty lulz. I actually encourage you to ignore the dots you can as a WAR, because that's part of the charm of the class.

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WOW really? WARs can actually just shrug off DoTs? I often wondered why they were so easy to heal apart from them just being so darn durable. Thunda_Cat you pretty much just lost a good chunk of your argument.....

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

WOW really? WARs can actually just shrug off DoTs? I often wondered why they were so easy to heal apart from them just being so darn durable. Thunda_Cat you pretty much just lost a good chunk of your argument.....

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Second coil was also top end raiding at the time, and it's rare for anything in top end raids to actually be cleansable. I've also done this test in essentially every casual dungeon/raid 4, 8, and 24 man, as MCH, which has exactly no self heals, and my HP never dipped below 75-80% of my maximum, and more importantly, each one was easily ignorable by avoiding the massive visible bad. The only exception is Sastasha Hard, which I acknowledged as far as cleansable debuffs go. Shadow Links in Dun Scaith does hit fairly hard at around 4k a tick, but it's not cleansable, which is the topic of debate.

WARs also don't shrug off DoTs, they just have so much health that they can ignore even more easily, which is shared across all tanks.

As for Slow/Heavy/Paralysis, even better solution: DON'T STAND IN THE GIANT AOE OF BAD.

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Originally Posted by Cynthis

if my healer plays with the attitude that if I make a mistake and gets hit by something then I deserve to suffer then I am going to find a new healer.

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Healers aren't there to heal. :3 If someone steps in bad twice then I'm not gonna waste mana on them. I have more important things to do with my time.

It's not just about keeping people alive either. If, for example, a BLM gets hit by a debuff that interrupts pretty much every cast or slows/heavies him then unless the healer does more damage than the BLM it is better for the party's DPS that the healer removes the debuff than that he continues to DPS hmself. Sure, a lot of those are avoidable but if my healer plays with the attitude that if I make a mistake and gets hit by something then I deserve to suffer then I am going to find a new healer. I am all for healers doing damage but the MAIN point of a healer is to, you know, heal. It's kind of in the job title.

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Originally Posted by Cynthis

It's not just about keeping people alive either. If, for example, a BLM gets hit by a debuff that interrupts pretty much every cast or slows/heavies him then unless the healer does more damage than the BLM it is better for the party's DPS that the healer removes the debuff than that he continues to DPS hmself. Sure, a lot of those are avoidable but if my healer plays with the attitude that if I make a mistake and gets hit by something then I deserve to suffer then I am going to find a new healer. I am all for healers doing damage but the MAIN point of a healer is to, you know, heal. It's kind of in the job title.

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Thank you Cynthis...Thunda_Cat doesnt seem to understand this fact.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

As for Slow/Heavy/Paralysis, even better solution: DON'T STAND IN THE GIANT AOE OF BAD. Healers aren't there to heal. :3 If someone steps in bad twice then I'm not gonna waste mana on them. I have more important things to do with my time.

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Case in point....unless you were just joking Thunda_Cat....Healers are there to Heal, which means heal people when they get hurt and to remove Debuffs/DoTs. If people are standing in stuff that is impossible to miss or are about to get hit by something that is blatantly telegraphed by those hard to miss indicators, then they either somehow missed em, or stood in them on purpose, either which way, I will still heal them and at the same time tell them "Please watch out for those attack indicators" or "Please dont stand in that..."

I was in a Raid Party with a friend of mine who was Co Healing with me and we both watched a Ninja die like 5+ times to the same boss, and we each took turns reviving him until we were both like "Okay you know what, lets not revive him anymore" (which we could coordinate real well since we use Voice." There will come a time where I will stop helping someone if they are being dumb. But if they are stepping in bad stuff I will heal them if they are still alive cause the more people who stay alive the faster something dies, especially if the people I am healing are the DPS, a Healer CANNOT do the dps of someone who is a Damage class, so we shouldnt try to do their job! A Healer cannot do the damage of a BLM, DRG, Nin, Bard or MCH, it isnt our purpose, we just dont have their damage potential.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

As a counterpoint, what cleanable DoT in game is that strong? As a DPS I've purposely taken every DoT in the face just to count the damage done per tick, and there isn't a single one in game that does over 2k. That's chump change. That's the equivalent of healing the tank cause he has maybe 500 HP damage. It's a waste of MP, and any feelings to the contrary is factually akin to a placebo effect.

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Probably the Sagittariuses in Baelsar's Wall. I always found it easier to cleanse the dots rather than waste my time healing through them. The combined potencies can and will kill a dps.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

As a counterpoint, what cleanable DoT in game is that strong? As a DPS I've purposely taken every DoT in the face just to count the damage done per tick, and there isn't a single one in game that does over 2k. That's chump change. That's the equivalent of healing the tank cause he has maybe 500 HP damage. It's a waste of MP, and any feelings to the contrary is factually akin to a placebo effect.

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Off the top of my head, I think the second boss from Cutters cry has a pretty damaging dot. (people could actually be dying from the dot+boss damage though so maybe the dot isn't that powerful, I'm not sure.)

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

As a counterpoint, what cleanable DoT in game is that strong? As a DPS I've purposely taken every DoT in the face just to count the damage done per tick, and there isn't a single one in game that does over 2k. That's chump change. That's the equivalent of healing the tank cause he has maybe 500 HP damage. It's a waste of MP, and any feelings to the contrary is factually akin to a placebo effect.

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So rather than rallying against the removal of expected debuff removal, why don't you rally for the increased impactfulness of healers doing their actual job?

There's not much more worth saying really, when people say things like "I just let people who stand in bad stuff die, it's a waste of mana"; well, it's a waste of a conversation. Shit happens, all the time. There has to be a degree of flexibility for learning and experience, and flat out bad luck (lag, random factors, unavoidable factors). Statements of absolution are just not useful in the conversation, it's not realistic.

I'm not sure if the idea of dps over all as a healer is as pervasive in game as it seems to be on this forum currently, but it's kinda strange if it is. Why don't people who enjoy DPS while forsaking healing just forsake healing? Sure, fitting in the highest dps you can while doing your job is part of the enthrallment, but surely your first desire would be to have your job be more compelling and time consuming in the first place? Is responding to a dangerous debuff less engaging as a healer to you than hitting your malefic/brawn/holy button another time?

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Originally Posted by Furious

Is responding to a dangerous debuff less engaging as a healer to you than hitting your malefic/brawn/holy button another time?

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To some people apparently so....I mean I love to deal damage to a boss whenever I can in a dungeon or raid, but I know that my primary purpose as a Healer is to keep people alive, which means healing, removing DoTs or crippling debuffs, reviving, being able to damage is just a secondary part of a Healers kit, nothing we can do damage wise can EVER come close to BLM, SMN, DRG, BRD, MCH, Nin and soon RDM (Red Mage). If Healers cannot except this fact, then they shouldnt be playing healers.

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Originally Posted by Phixx

2: BRD and MCH both lost their MP and TP regens to Role Abilities, but I have not come across a thread where they are complaining, why is that? (Or can you find one to prove me wrong on this)

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Because as far as the brd side (my secondary FWIW) the songs didn't just go poof. Those abilities went to role, while the original songs were modified both to make them not punish the brd for using them and to give useful utility to the group when they are going and bonuses for using the songs in certain orders. It's going to be a very rare brd now who doesn't use songs, rather than the other way around. So brds really lost nothing having those moved to role abilities since using those were more situational and gained very much on their base songs.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

I mean, I love the fact that as a Healer I can DPS when I need to/want to, but yeah.....if I need to dispel debuffs on a moment's notice, id rather have the means to do so all the time, and having to sacrifice a Cross Role slot to equip something that should by all accounts remain a built in ability to the Healers, is not very good design.

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If you want esuna, take esuna. But there is a lot of content where it doesn't matter. Allowing healers to make this decision is much better design than the cc system IMO, where taking certain skills is a must and most classes didn't get meaningful choice.

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Originally Posted by winsock

If you want esuna, take esuna. But there is a lot of content where it doesn't matter. Allowing healers to make this decision is much better design than the cc system IMO, where taking certain skills is a must and most classes didn't get meaningful choice.

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Going to be honest, but I'd have much rather seen them put Repose in cross-role rather than Esuna.

Role actions only make since if all the jobs didn't already have the skill.

All these arguments that are saying the Esuna thing was to give SCH access earlier than 30 is probably the truth but such a ridiculous reason. Many of us were more than able to handle the pre-30 content without it.

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Originally Posted by Maku

Role actions only make since if all the jobs didn't already have the skill.

All these arguments that are saying the Esuna thing was to give SCH access earlier than 30 is probably the truth but such a ridiculous reason. Many of us were more than able to handle the pre-30 content without it.

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SCH can't have access earlier than 30 because prior to 30 they're an ARC, which is a DPS.

Well, I guess it'd work for level sync, but when did you ever need it prior to Brayflox?

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Originally Posted by Odd2oul

Probably the Sagittariuses in Baelsar's Wall. I always found it easier to cleanse the dots rather than waste my time healing through them. The combined potencies can and will kill a dps.

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As as mentioned below the worm in Cutter's Cry can really hurt, too. And that first boss in Sastasha HM will murder you if you don't cleanse. Brayflox, too. That poison can hurt.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

And that first boss in Sastasha HM will murder you.

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Also the only time using Esuna on a DoT is mandatory as opposed to a pure dps loss.

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

Going to be honest, but I'd have much rather seen them put Repose in cross-role rather than Esuna.

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But then you fall into similar problems with the current system

People complained about the cross class system across all roles. So many useless skills... there is little benefit to changing them up on most classes.

Now that +5 skills have desirable qualities, people are complaining that the don't have them​ all....

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Originally Posted by winsock

But then you fall into similar problems with the current system

People complained about the cross class system across all roles. So many useless skills... there is little benefit to changing them up on most classes.

Now that +5 skills have desirable qualities, people are complaining that the don't have them​ all....

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Well, duh.

People want to have choice, but then hate choice once they actually have it. Welcome to humans.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Well, duh.

People want to have choice, but then hate choice once they actually have it. Welcome to humans.

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Lol /10 char

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Well, duh.

People want to have choice, but then hate choice once they actually have it. Welcome to humans.

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It's not choice when there's 3 or 4 mandatory or clearly better than other options.

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Originally Posted by winsock

But then you fall into similar problems with the current system

People complained about the cross class system across all roles. So many useless skills... there is little benefit to changing them up on most classes.

Now that +5 skills have desirable qualities, people are complaining that the don't have them​ all....

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It's an issue in that the skills were taken away, so the choice is less "which of these cool abilities do you want" and more "what do you no longer want to have". This is especially true for WHM, but even as a SCH supposed benefits come alongside disheartening reductions in class mainstays (see: Lucid Dreaming and the Aetherize mana nerf).

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Originally Posted by winsock

If you want esuna, take esuna. But there is a lot of content where it doesn't matter. Allowing healers to make this decision is much better design than the cc system IMO, where taking certain skills is a must and most classes didn't get meaningful choice.

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But if the Cleansers are built into their respective Classes (WHM, AST and SCH respectively) then this problem being discussed wouldnt even be discussed. The point people are making here is that if the Cleansers remain built into their respective Healers, we can still make the choice of whether we need it or not and WOULDNT NEED to sacrifice an Optional Ability slot to do so. I really dont get why people are fighting this undeniable fact.

You said "Where taking certain skills is a must" I can name several of the now Cross Role abilities that had before now, always been built into their respective classes

For White Mage they had: Esuna, Divine Seal (20% heal buff), Protect, Shroud of Saints (MP Regen and Enmity Reduction). White Mages had these as part of their core kit since FFXIV began. Why do they NOW need to be in the Cross Role?

Astrologian: Exalted Detriment (their version of Esuna), Synastry (has a 20% heal buff component) and Luminiferous Aether (MP Regen but doesnt reduce Enmity by half). ASTs needed to Cross Class Protect to use it. Again same thing with AST, they have their own debuff remover, their own heal buff, and they have their own MP Regen. Why do these need to be put into the Cross Role?

Scholar: They have Leeches (their version of Esuna), Dissipation (has a 20% Heal buff component) and Aetherflow (which restores 20% of their missing MP which is quite a chunk). They dont have an MP Regen that is similar in function to Luminiferous Aether or Shroud of Saints but they none the less can use Aetherflow and Energy Drain to keep their MP up. So AGAIN I have to ask, why do they need to lose these abilities to the Cross Role?

All these abilities that Ive mentioned.

1) Luminiferous Aether and Shroud of Saints, are being ripped unreasonably from AST and WHM respectively and put into the Cross Role as Lucid Dreaming, which is unnecessary!

2) Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches, are all being unreasonably taken away from their respective healers and combined into one ability called Esuna within the Cross Role, which is also unnecessary

3) The Heal Buff component of Synastry (AST), Divine Seal and the Heal Buff component of Dissipation (SCH) are ALSO unreasonably being ripped from their respective healers and shoved into the Cross Role as Largesse.

So I ask you again, all of these abilities are built into their respective healers right NOW, but in SB we might need to waste all 5 of the Optional Slots just to USE them and for what? Because we might not need them? For THAT reason alone they are being taken off their respective healers as built in abilities? Im sorry but that is a weak excuse. IF I dont need my Esuna/Exalted Detriment in any given moment I just dont click the button it is placed on in my hotbar, but the moment it is needed, boom, muscle memory takes over and I use it! I DO NOT NEED any of these listed abilities thrown into the Cross Role. So many of us have said that they will be taking nothing but Esuna, Protect, Lucid Dreaming and Largesse as their most definite choices and NOTHING ELSE ever! So what in the holy heck does this actually solve? Nothing at all!

God why cant people see this? The only abilities that should be in that Cross Role for healers are Cleric Stance, Rescue, Break, Eye for an Eye, Surecast and Swiftcast (though personally I feel Swiftcast should be core built into even Healers but Im fine either way with it being a Cross Role or otherwise)! Yes this means that Healers would only have 6 Cross Role abilities but so what? They have no legit reason to be shoving Cleansers, MP Regens and Heal Buffs which are important to the healer's core kit, into the Cross Role, and if they do, they need to explain why, which they havent! Even if you guys feel like Cleansers are of no importance to the Core Kit and even if they really were, you CANNOT sit there and expect anyone to believe that MP Regens and Heal Buffs are not important, goodness there are so many high damage fights out there that require a good amount of heavy healing that Im REALLY HAPPY that MP Regens and Heal Buffs are core built.

Addendum: Furthermore I am aware that with the videos we've seen so far, that everything we are all talking about is subject to change. But if things are the way we have seen them, there is no way I am going to lay down and agree to this, and I am very certain there will be others. WE DONT NEED to have these abilities thrown into Cross Role, we dont NEED to have a total of 10! If these abilities are Core Built then you DONT HAVE TO WORRY about them being among your 5 choices out of the list of 10 abilities in the Cross Role.

You guys talk so much about this giving us choices, when the reality is, 5 of those choices are normally core built, and there has never been anything wrong with that, I see no benefit to this, this doesnt help, it infact just gives me 10 things to pick from but Im going to pick what I am familiar with and KEEP USING those, so again, how does this give me choice? I cant make use of the other 5 abilities because I dont see them as important enough to warrant losing what I know are the best choices. AGAIN, if they remained Core Built then what is the problem with having just 6 to choose from? We'd have 5 equipped and one not being used, and if needed we can swap that one ability in for a fairly big combination difference.

For example

Surecast, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Cleric Stance, Break

or

Surecast, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Cleric Stance, Swiftcast

or

Surecast, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Break, Swiftcast

and so on! You can make quite a few different combos with having just 6 abilities in which you can only use 5 at a time!

Call me noob but i really don't want to think if the dungeon/raid/whatever i'm going to do requires or not a cleanse come on! Esuna it's a must-have for me. In 4 man run you need it anyway, with roulettes you can't change before but after you see what you are doing (ppl don't even wait for protect, lets see if they wait a change skill everytime).

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

But if the Cleansers are built into their respective Classes (WHM, AST and SCH respectively) then this problem being discussed wouldnt even be discussed. The point people are making here is that if the Cleansers remain built into their respective Healers, we can still make the choice of whether we need it or not and WOULDNT NEED to sacrifice an Optional Ability slot to do so. I really dont get why people are fighting this undeniable fact.

You said "Where taking certain skills is a must" I can name several of the now Cross Role abilities that had before now, always been built into their respective classes

For White Mage they had: Esuna, Divine Seal (20% heal buff), Protect, Shroud of Saints (MP Regen and Enmity Reduction). White Mages had these as part of their core kit since FFXIV began. Why do they NOW need to be in the Cross Role?

Astrologian: Exalted Detriment (their version of Esuna), Synastry (has a 20% heal buff component) and Luminiferous Aether (MP Regen but doesnt reduce Enmity by half). ASTs needed to Cross Class Protect to use it. Again same thing with AST, they have their own debuff remover, their own heal buff, and they have their own MP Regen. Why do these need to be put into the Cross Role?

Scholar: They have Leeches (their version of Esuna), Dissipation (has a 20% Heal buff component) and Aetherflow (which restores 20% of their missing MP which is quite a chunk). They dont have an MP Regen that is similar in function to Luminiferous Aether or Shroud of Saints but they none the less can use Aetherflow and Energy Drain to keep their MP up. So AGAIN I have to ask, why do they need to lose these abilities to the Cross Role?

All these abilities that Ive mentioned.

1) Luminiferous Aether and Shroud of Saints, are being ripped unreasonably from AST and WHM respectively and put into the Cross Role as Lucid Dreaming, which is unnecessary!

2) Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches, are all being unreasonably taken away from their respective healers and combined into one ability called Esuna within the Cross Role, which is also unnecessary

3) The Heal Buff component of Synastry (AST), Divine Seal and the Heal Buff component of Dissipation (SCH) are ALSO unreasonably being ripped from their respective healers and shoved into the Cross Role as Largesse.

So I ask you again, all of these abilities are built into their respective healers right NOW, but in SB we might need to waste all 5 of the Optional Slots just to USE them and for what? Because we might not need them? For THAT reason alone they are being taken off their respective healers as built in abilities? Im sorry but that is a weak excuse. IF I dont need my Esuna/Exalted Detriment in any given moment I just dont click the button it is placed on in my hotbar, but the moment it is needed, boom, muscle memory takes over and I use it! I DO NOT NEED any of these listed abilities thrown into the Cross Role. So many of us have said that they will be taking nothing but Esuna, Protect, Lucid Dreaming and Largesse as their most definite choices and NOTHING ELSE ever! So what in the holy heck does this actually solve? Nothing at all!

God why cant people see this? The only abilities that should be in that Cross Role for healers are Cleric Stance, Rescue, Break, Eye for an Eye, Surecast and Swiftcast (though personally I feel Swiftcast should be core built into even Healers but Im fine either way with it being a Cross Role or otherwise)! Yes this means that Healers would only have 6 Cross Role abilities but so what? They have no legit reason to be shoving Cleansers, MP Regens and Heal Buffs which are important to the healer's core kit, into the Cross Role, and if they do, they need to explain why, which they havent! Even if you guys feel like Cleansers are of no importance to the Core Kit and even if they really were, you CANNOT sit there and expect anyone to believe that MP Regens and Heal Buffs are not important, goodness there are so many high damage fights out there that require a good amount of heavy healing that Im REALLY HAPPY that MP Regens and Heal Buffs are core built.

Addendum: Furthermore I am aware that with the videos we've seen so far, that everything we are all talking about is subject to change. But if things are the way we have seen them, there is no way I am going to lay down and agree to this, and I am very certain there will be others. WE DONT NEED to have these abilities thrown into Cross Role, we dont NEED to have a total of 10! If these abilities are Core Built then you DONT HAVE TO WORRY about them being among your 5 choices out of the list of 10 abilities in the Cross Role.

You guys talk so much about this giving us choices, when the reality is, 5 of those choices are normally core built, and there has never been anything wrong with that, I see no benefit to this, this doesnt help, it infact just gives me 10 things to pick from but Im going to pick what I am familiar with and KEEP USING those, so again, how does this give me choice? I cant make use of the other 5 abilities because I dont see them as important enough to warrant losing what I know are the best choices. AGAIN, if they remained Core Built then what is the problem with having just 6 to choose from? We'd have 5 equipped and one not being used, and if needed we can swap that one ability in for a fairly big combination difference.

For example

Surecast, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Cleric Stance, Break

or

Surecast, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Cleric Stance, Swiftcast

or

Surecast, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Break, Swiftcast

and so on! You can make quite a few different combos with having just 6 abilities in which you can only use 5 at a time!

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Why can't people see this... Because people are blind and only see what they want to see. You make REALLY good arguments too.

It so seems that SE wants to do subjobs... without the subjobs (because it's too "FFXI")... to give options.. yet relegate us to use specific abilities anyways! So what's the point of all this? There's really no choice. You're going to always choose specific abilities EVERY time. So why bother with this. Why? What is the point?

They could have easily just remade it so that a quest for each job gave protect, esuna, w/e the stupid named MP regen is now, LD, and made them universal. But no, they do this cross class BS. You went full retard SE... you never go full retard...

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Originally Posted by Mogu86

(ppl don't even wait for protect, lets see if they wait a change skill every time).

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This over and over and over again. We realize that roulettes and stuff are easy and it doesn't REALLY matter but come on we like to run effectively and being able to remove heavy can make me have to heal less and DPS more.

If every single healer had these thing in their kit already why bother making them role actions? It just doesn't have any logical explanation.

Protect, E4E, Surecast, Swiftcast are understandable. But cleanser, H% boost, and MP recover are already set in each class in some fashion.

Really this only helps SCH in the long run cause now we have even more MP recovering ability and can DPS even more. Too bad our DPS got nerfed with the bane nerf.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

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The whole cross-role system can be completly scrapped then.
"If that skill were build in the class...", that can be said about every cross-role skill, making the system itself pointless.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

1) Luminiferous Aether and Shroud of Saints, are being ripped unreasonably from AST and WHM respectively and put into the Cross Role as Lucid Dreaming, which is unnecessary!

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Aether and Shroud of Saints do the same thing in practice, but 1 is stronger than the other, and one reduces enmity. They are not exactly the same, and a person could say one is stronger than the other. Consolidating them makes it fair across the board.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

2) Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches, are all being unreasonably taken away from their respective healers and combined into one ability called Esuna within the Cross Role, which is also unnecessary.

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Esuna was learned at a lower level, and making it accessible at a lower level by role skills is a pretty good move. Waiting till lvl 40 to get leeches was kind of silly imo.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

3) The Heal Buff component of Synastry (AST), Divine Seal and the Heal Buff component of Dissipation (SCH) are ALSO unreasonably being ripped from their respective healers and shoved into the Cross Role as Largesse.

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This by far is the best one for role skills. While you are correct that all healers have "divine seal" in some shape or fashion, it was always tacked onto somethign else, except for whm's actual divine seal. When using Dissipation, you lose your fairy and gain aetherflow stacks for the 20% Healing magic potency. Astro on the other hand has theirs tied to synastry. Its a great skill, but like dissipation, if you use it for just the healing magic potency increase, you lose out on what the skill could actually be useful for. Making a seperate role skill specifically for divine seal for all healers is a good move, and makes the use of dissipation, and Synastry much more meaningful.

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna

You went full retard SE... you never go full retard...

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Stormblood isn't even out yet.. how can you call them retarded when you haven't even tried it out? You might dislike and disagree, but why not come back in a few days after you've had time to actually try your hand at it before passing judgment... same goes for everyone else..

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Originally Posted by Fyce

The whole cross-role system can be completly scrapped then.
"If that skill were build in the class...", that can be said about every cross-role skill, making the system itself pointless.

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cross class is now trying to double as both role necessity and niche choice at the same time. As a result, only the first half is going to matter. There is no point in those 10 skills "choice" if 4-5 of them will almost never see any use because they put all the role required spells into it.

Its kinda worse now for healers because we now have more options but less choice.

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Originally Posted by MrSmiley

cross class is now trying to double as both role necessity and niche choice at the same time. As a result, only the first half is going to matter. There is no point in those 10 skills "choice" if 4-5 of them will almost never see any use because they put all the role required spells into it.

Its kinda worse now for healers because we now have more options but less choice.

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"Almost never see any use" is different than "never see any use" though.
The current cross-class system actually had completly useless skills. Now, even if the use is niche, we might see some utility coming from the other skills.

Sure, it's not ideal and there could have been a loadout system to help us switch easily depending on the content we're doing, and they could've been more creative with the skills and their overall balance...
But at least it's not worse than the cross-class system which even forced you to level up jobs you may didn't want to play.

Besides, the healers having only one slot for customization is still better than what the ranged DPS have to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

Aether and Shroud of Saints do the same thing in practice, but 1 is stronger than the other, and one reduces enmity. They are not exactly the same, and a person could say one is stronger than the other. Consolidating them makes it fair across the board.

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This is wrong. They both reduce enmity generation. Both have a refresh potency of 80, but since AST's is longer (24s vs. WHM's 15s), it does refresh more. WHM also has Assize though, which can probably account for the difference. AST has to lose out on an AoE party buff to use Ewer.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

This is wrong. They both reduce enmity generation. Both have a refresh potency of 80, but since AST's is longer (24s vs. WHM's 15s), it does refresh more. WHM also has Assize though, which can probably account for the difference. AST has to lose out on an AoE party buff to use Ewer.

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This isn't a fair comparison, since you are adding in outside factors. I was comparing the skills against each other, and while they both reduce enmity, (my mistake) Aether still has a longer duration, resulting in more procs. That would make Aether the stronger of the two.

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna

Why can't people see this... Because people are blind and only see what they want to see. You make REALLY good arguments too.

It so seems that SE wants to do subjobs... without the subjobs (because it's too "FFXI")... to give options.. yet relegate us to use specific abilities anyways! So what's the point of all this? There's really no choice. You're going to always choose specific abilities EVERY time. So why bother with this. Why? What is the point?

They could have easily just remade it so that a quest for each job gave protect, esuna, w/e the stupid named MP regen is now, LD, and made them universal. But no, they do this cross class BS. You went full retard SE... you never go full retard...

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Thaaaaaaank you!

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Originally Posted by Maku

This over and over and over again. We realize that roulettes and stuff are easy and it doesn't REALLY matter but come on we like to run effectively and being able to remove heavy can make me have to heal less and DPS more.

If every single healer had these thing in their kit already why bother making them role actions? It just doesn't have any logical explanation.

Protect, E4E, Surecast, Swiftcast are understandable. But cleanser, H% boost, and MP recover are already set in each class in some fashion.

Really this only helps SCH in the long run cause now we have even more MP recovering ability and can DPS even more. Too bad our DPS got nerfed with the bane nerf.

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I was saying something along these lines to a friend earlier, really, this change is only helping SCH because for one it gives them an earlier Cleanser, earlier Heal Buff and a powerful MP Regen, not like they needed it....

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

This isn't a fair comparison, since you are adding in outside factors. I was comparing the skills against each other, and while they both reduce enmity, (my mistake) Aether still has a longer duration, resulting in more procs. That would make Aether the stronger of the two.

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Including outside factors in this case is important. If LA/Shroud were added to cross role to equalize them and make them fair, but WHM's loss of refresh potency was balanced by something else, then there was no need to make them "fair" to begin with. I'll be upfront and say that I don't raid at a high level, but my experience with MP management between AST and WHM has largely been the same.

Besides, if they felt it was unbalanced, why fix it by adding it into cross role actions as opposed to adjusting them to be the same? People have a problem with the cross role actions because it's touted as a way to customize your character, the ONLY way, in fact, and then they made it so healers really only get one, maybe two choices on what to take. Don't give us all these neat cross role options then make it useless to use any of the new stuff.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

This is wrong. They both reduce enmity generation. Both have a refresh potency of 80, but since AST's is longer (24s vs. WHM's 15s), it does refresh more. WHM also has Assize though, which can probably account for the difference. AST has to lose out on an AoE party buff to use Ewer.

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Actually, Luminiferous Aether does NOT reduce enmity generation, if it did, the tooltip would say so.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

This isn't a fair comparison, since you are adding in outside factors. I was comparing the skills against each other, and while they both reduce enmity, (my mistake) Aether still has a longer duration, resulting in more procs. That would make Aether the stronger of the two.

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For once you and I actually agree on something if only partially Nyght. However even if Luminiferous Aether is the stronger of the two, all they need to do is either extend Shroud of Saints duration or lower Luminiferous Aether's to like 20 and raise Shroud of Saints to 20 seconds as well. But should they remove these two abilities from their respective classes just to resolve the problem? No.

Addendum: Though I think the reason why Luminiferous Aether had a longer duration, was because unlike Shroud of Saints it had no built in Enmity reduction, had to balance that out with something.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

Actually, Luminiferous Aether does NOT reduce enmity generation, if it did, the tooltip would say so.

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Either my tooltip is wrong, and has been wrong since I got my AST soulstone, or there is some misinformation going around here.

https://image.prntscr.com/image/zgH-...ivmNNjJoIA.png

here is a screenshot of the tooltip as it currently appears in game. Containing the phrase "Reduces enmity generation."