Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

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Originally Posted by Mature

DPSing is OPTIONAL as a HEALer.

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Lets start with memes ayyyy:

UsInG yOuR bRaIn Is OpTiOnNaL oN tHe FoRuMs

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Originally Posted by Watachy

UsInG yOuR bRaIn Is OpTiOnNaL oN tHe FoRuMs

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you forgot this...
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...ngebobicon.jpg

This won't stop you from being kicked if you think this justifies you to be lazy as a healer.

I will be concise. Yoshida can say whatever he fancies. People aren't going to care. There is a reddit thread on this very subject that could be best summarized as "LOL no." If he truly wants healers to be less DPS centric, stop making content so damn easy. Were I to not DPS in dungeons, I may as well queue during dinner and AFK to make it. I'll most certainly have time. People aren't even particularly miffed by numbers when it comes to healer DPS. They simply do not appreciate anyone, regardless of role, doing literally nothing. If you have time to hop around the map, you have time to DPS. What matters is effort. And no, pressing one GCD every 20-30 seconds does not constitute effort. The dev team is, quite frankly, delusional if they think expectations won't increase now that stance dancing has died. Expectations are going to be higher than ever.

If you have downtime equal to that of at least 1 GCD you should be doing DPS. otherwise its just wasted time of you standing there. That simple. if you don't have a full GCD downtime then fine, but healers should still do DPS.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

utter drivel

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Actually, what you're proposing is acceptable is this:

Tank: Constant aggro maintenance keeping enemies engaged
DPS: Constant damage output
Healer: Stands around flinging out a Cure every 30 seconds or so (less if they use regens)

What decent players expect (and strive for):

Tank: Constant aggro maintenance
DPS: Constant damage output
Healer: Constant casting (if healing is unnecessary, switch to Cleric)

My Ruin scenario is merely matching the DPS output to the healer's output in the first instance - the output several of you are trying to claim is comparable to the work the tank and DPS do.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I will be concise. Yoshida can say whatever he fancies. People aren't going to care. There is a reddit thread on this very subject that could be best summarized as "LOL no." If he truly wants healers to be less DPS centric, stop making content so damn easy. Were I to not DPS in dungeons, I may as well queue during dinner and AFK to make it. I'll mostly certainly have time. People aren't even particularly miffed by numbers when it comes to healer DPS. They simply do not appreciate anyone, regardless of role, doing literally nothing. If you have time to hop around the map, you have time to DPS. What matters is effort. And no, pressing one GCD every 20-30 seconds does not constitute effort. The dev team is, quite frankly, delusional if they think expectations won't increase now that stance dancing has died. Expectations are going to be higher than ever.

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Sir, allow me to share some cookies 'cause you're godamn right !

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Does that really mean anything other than that DPS checks can be met without healers doing any damage?

For just about all content it is not mandatory (for any class/job) to play optimally - that does not mean players like when others get lazy and just do a bare minimum.

It is not mandatory for healers to do damage, just as it is not mandatory for tanks to stance-dance to maximize their damage output while still holding aggro. Nor is it mandatory for DPS classes to use all their buffs or to use an optimal rotation.
Yet all of that is desirable. We want our fellow players to play well, but the game does not make it mandatory to do so. Healers doing dps or not is just one aspect of this.

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There are no "Heal/DPS Checks" per se. They setup the dungeons so that if you are meeting the level/ilevel, you can pass it using the roles set (DPS, Tank, Healer) doing only their role. This is a concept that players invented to justify kicking players that aren't equipped with the right gear. If anything, the 24-man raids are actually designed with more carry-weight knowing that people will be disconnected or crash.

Imagine a game that lets you select healer, and then didn't let you pass any content without a group of DPS. Like some MMORPG's put ALL the content behind a party gate and you are out of luck starting the game as a healer. That's the point of Cleric Stance, because the mechanics put damage using INT and Healing using MND. You either do 5x the damage or 10x the healing with CS in the correct mode. If you are not in the correct mode to cast, both your healing and dps is rubbish. That cross-class system was intended to be a way for someone to pick and choose what skills they wanted from the classes (not jobs) by leveraging the base level, eg if you're level 42 base, you can access the level 42 skills of all classes you've leveled, and use them on any other class. In theory. That was V1.0. V2.0 for some reason left part of this in, and it's why Arcanist/Summoner/Scholar is a bit of a mess. By leveling Scholar you level Summoner, but never actually learn how to play Summoner and vice versa. When Astrologian was brought out, it was brought out as a Job only, nothing can be cross-classed from it, but yet could pick up cross-class skills from Conjurer.

We keep bringing up how CS was a bad mechanic, but self-heal mechanics exist on all roles for the same purpose, to get through solo content, and you'll note that these self-heals are exceptionally weak and can't be used on another player (other than Psysick.) So if Red Mage is getting a few heals too, think about what the purpose of those are, I assure it it won't be replacing the healer in the party. The "entire toolbox" argument cuts both ways.

Part of the balking about changes to WHM is that the Conjurer is the only healer class and all these skill removals come at the expense of the Conjurer, and therefor the WHM.

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Originally Posted by Deviru

Agreed. Seeing as how I still see healers struggle with the Vault at high item levels to this day without casting a single DPS spell, this would make healing impossible for a lot of players.

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Even when that content was new, it wasn't terribly hard, it was just designed with more healing required because the MSQ storyline dungeons between 50 and 60 are supposed to encourage you to use your level 50-60 skills. What's the point of having a level 50+ dungeon that you can get by with only using pre-level 50 skills.

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Originally Posted by Mature

And WHO are you to be telling others how to play their class? Specially having the AUDACITY to call them "lazy"?

It amazes me people even dare to try to put others down for playing their class!!!

If you are a HEALER you bloody well HEAL. I'll be well annoyed if the healer was NOT healing. THAT would be a problem.

If I'm kept alive all the way to the end of a dungeon, to me the healer has done its job

Get real

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There is at least two people who keeps following me from thread on this topic just to shout down at me that healers are lazy, when that laziness seems to be something doesn't exist outside of troll behavior. If someone is standing there for 5 seconds doing nothing, you have no idea what they are looking at, and the healers have to keep their eyes on at least 3 players, themselves, enmity, and buffs/debuffs. Nobody else has to do all of this, the tanks should only be concerned with Enmity, AOE's and maybe stunning bosses that cast party flatteners if the DPS do not have this skill. The DPS only need to stay out of AOE's and keep pressing buttons. Neither DPS nor Tank need to have healing skills on their bars if they are concerned about clutter or efficiency, leave that to the healer.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Because they are. Plain and simple.
It's lazy, inefficient, and "average".


Healers have the access and ability to contribute either very little, or a lot.
Choosing not to DPS is choosing to do very little. ie. Lazy

No one, I repeat NO ONE who believes healers should attempt to deal as much damage as possible while on healer is suggesting that DPS takes priority over the health of the party. Healing first, DPS second.
However DPS second does not mean no DPS at all.

They may have "done their job" but they have done the absolute bare minimum of their job if they finish the dungeon with 0 DPS.
Why strive for the bare minimum in a game, when you can strive to actually be a good player with a "little" bit more effort?

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Not everyone operates at the same skill level. Have you considered that maybe the simplified healer role without DPS requirements is the ideal role for physically disabled players to play? What if someone is missing a few fingers or a hand?

The answer is never "lazy", the answer is "skill level"

If someone has time to spam the chat, or derp around, they are not playing to their fullest capacity, and the chatty player is the exception, not the rule. Everyone on the general forum seems to think the unskilled player is the rule and not the exception. Even the speedrunner/raider is the exception, and for every one terrible raider party playing regular content there are 10 other parties that are variable skill levels.

You can play this game using a controller-only, a keyboard-only, a keyboard and mouse, or a mouse-only. The way you play it impacts the way you can pull off things like stance dances, and to be honest, getting rid of "stances" altogether removes an extra step that was imposed only on players using the mouse to activate skills. The CS indication is beside your player name, not in the skill bar. They could have solved all of this by making CS actually lock out the healing or DPS skills back at V2.0, thus making it obvious you are supposed to use CS to switch, but that is a failure of the game's instructions, take into account that even the "hall of the notice" doesn't tell you about Cleric Stance, nor does the conjurer storyline.

The ultimate failing in this game is that the game doesn't actually tell you when to use these skills, you are just given them. Maybe that freedom to experiment was a good thing, and people figured out the best use of those skills, but then the raiders come along and tell you to play like they do or get kicked. Thus creating animosity between two groups of players.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

Lets start with memes ayyyy:

UsInG yOuR bRaIn Is OpTiOnNaL oN tHe FoRuMs

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We are talking about the fact healers arent demanded to DPS as IT IS optional. As long as I'm kept alive along my party it's all ok. KICKING them out or forcing them to do what YOU want them to do IS NOT ok.

If you have NOTHING more to contribute in regards this topic it would be wise move on and keep quiet. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Stop making weird comparisons.
If the healer doesnt dps (the extra thing) he is still doing his thing = healing.
If you stop doing proper dps, you arent doing your thing correctly anymore.

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By that logic and assuming we are going by how fights didn't include Healer DPS as part of their design, most DPS players aren't doing their job since fights were designed under the assumption that DPS classes were doing 80-90% of their maximum potential, and boy, most DPS's definitely do not do that amount.

If we go by a literal logic, as long as a DPS class is doing enough damage to clear the content before the time limit, then they are doing their job, which is to deal enough damage to clear the content before time is up.

Well, guess as a tank I am going to go pull everything, including the kitchen sink and their grandmothers, so the healers can heal to their hearts content.

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Originally Posted by Mature

lol

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I know a lot more than you, evidently.

I've never met a user with such a huge discrepancy between post content and username.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Actually, what you're proposing is acceptable is this:

Tank: Constant aggro maintenance keeping enemies engaged
DPS: Constant damage output
Healer: Stands around flinging out a Cure every 30 seconds or so (less if they use regens)

What decent players expect (and strive for):

Tank: Constant aggro maintenance
DPS: Constant damage output
Healer: Constant casting (if healing is unnecessary, switch to Cleric)

My Ruin scenario is merely matching the DPS output to the healer's output in the first instance - the output several of you are trying to claim is comparable to the work the tank and DPS do.

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Except for the very fact that what i am "proposing" is what lets you finish the dungeon easily. You do not need the Healer to dps. But its allright, considering all i get is sarcasm and childish responses i will stop arguing with people here. Enjoy beeing a unnecessary jerk towards people because of the fact that you think they are not doing enough / not worthy getting anything because they are not doing enough.

Also: I NEVER CLAIMED HEALERS ARE DOING EQUAL WORK. NEVER. I repeatedly said that YES Healers can dps to avoid downtime and to help the group. HOWEVER i always stood the point that its optional for people to decide THEMSELF - a right which you take away.

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Originally Posted by Mature

We are talking about the fact healers arent demanded to DPS as IT IS optional.

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Yet you ain't responding to my scenario which:
Tank is spamming flash
DPS is auto-attacking
Healer is only healing

You know, the rest is optionnal, i won't do what YOU want me to do as a tank nor a DPS.
(How is your logic applied againt you ?)

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Originally Posted by Watachy

Yet you ain't responding to my scenario which:
Tank is spamming flash
DPS is auto-attacking
Healer is only healing

You know, the rest is optionnal, i won't do what YOU want me to do as a tank nor a DPS.
(How is your logic applied againt you ?)

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we are not talking about tanking or dps as a dsp.

If you feel that doing flash and auto attacking is as much as you can go good for you but I will ADVICE you to go and seek some help from other people on how to increase you Emity and increase your dps.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

pls

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So if healers, in your opinion, aren't doing equal work, why would you not want or expect them to?

None of you have given any adequate reason whatsoever why a healer shouldn't DPS. If it's optional for them to be as efficient, why is the SMN example any different? What makes healers special snowflakes?

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I know a lot more than you, evidently.

I've never met a user with such a huge discrepancy between post content and username.

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We are talking about the fact healers arent demanded to DPS as IT IS optional. As long as I'm kept alive along my party it's all ok. KICKING them out or forcing them to do what YOU want them to do IS NOT ok.

If you have NOTHING more to contribute in regards this topic it would be wise move on and keep quiet. Thanks.

Plus I think your character says other wise sadly no idea what you are doing here.

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Originally Posted by Mature

we are not talking about tanking or dps as a dsp.

If you feel that doing flash and auto attacking is as much as you can go good for you but I will ADVICE you to go and seek some help from other people on how to increase you Emity and increase your dps.

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That's what i advice to "only healing" people, try to play the game how it should be.
Means using your spells and casting.

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Originally Posted by Mature

If you have NOTHING more to contribute in regards this topic it would be wise move on and keep quiet. Thanks.

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Dude you're the one wrong here, you should quit the topic and stop saying promoting lazyness like "dps as a healer is optionnal" which means in reality "im a lazy snowflake carry me the whole duty while im on netflix"

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I've never met a user with such a huge discrepancy between post content and username.

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Don't think I can esuna THAT burn debuff.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Healer = Healing and dealing damage when there is nothing to heal
Tank = Tanking and maintain DPS
DPS = Dealing Damage and using appropriate utility when the situation calls for it

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I fixed this for you.

Again, I feel like I should repeat my earlier statements of: It may not be mandatory for Healers to DPS but it sure is intended for then to.

There is a mindset already VERY well established that if a healer is not dpsing when possible then that player is not playing optimally. This falls into the "Difference of playstyles" category. Whether you like it or not, if you are not dpsing as a healer when there is nothing else to do, then people will be hovering there mouses over your name to initiate a kick and more often than not that kick will pass.

It's called being fair to the people in your party, standing there doing nothing is not acceptable if people are at full hp. I urge any healer going into SB to try doing a dungeon and stand around doing nothing for 20+ seconds of every minute, tell me how long you stay in the dungeon, consider it my experiment for you.

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Originally Posted by Mature

uh

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It's like debating with a parrot...

And I'm not sure what it is about my character that offends you, but based on your past reasoning I doubt it'd be anything even semi-coherent.

Please go troll elsewhere.

http://i.imgur.com/ZWw1pnc.jpg

Anyone remember the Conjurer class quests? Boy, I sure do.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

You still miss the part about me saying "If everyone does his job properly, the dungeon finishes easily".

Healer = Healing
Tank = Tanking
DPS = Dealing Damage

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This is wrong FYI. Here it is for real.

Healer = Finish the dungeon as fast as possible.
Tank = Finish the dungeon as fast as possible.
DPS = Finish the dungeon as fast as possible.
If you as a healer aren't dpsing then you aren't actually doing your job and I will trash-talk you in ls or fc chat the same as I would a threat-combo only tank or a dps who single targets in AE situations, even though both of them are technically doing their role, according to you. I won't vote kick you though, unless someone else triggers it anyway, and I also won't commend you ever since your job could have been done by a drinking apkallu and /follow. I fairly routinely com healers who go too ham on DPS and accidentally let people die though, at least an effort was made.

Funny how I almost never am left to die by a healer who is dpsing though, while the jerks who want to afk and watch netflix on their 2nd monitor are perfectly happy to watch me slowly die from unavoidable AE's and not do anything about it.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

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Your problem (and a lot of other people have it as well) is that you only know extremes.

Ohhh, this thread is almost as good as the "We're all DD's now" :)
Of course healer dps is optional. If it wasn't, we'd have dps checks where flawless party dps job performance wouldn't be enough to clear. But what Yoshi says doesn't really matter. What matters is how the game actually is (lots of healer downtime) and that 'Difference in playstyle' is a valid reason for votekicking a near-zero contribution healer.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Your problem (and a lot of other people have it as well) is that you only know extremes.

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Your problem is that your argument has no leg to stand on.

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Originally Posted by Deviru

http://i.imgur.com/ZWw1pnc.jpg

Anyone remember the Conjurer class quests? Boy, I sure do.

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Oh, Reddit has been having a field day with this.

http://i.imgur.com/Ab89U58.png
http://i.imgur.com/0b3xsAx.jpg

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Originally Posted by Deviru

http://i.imgur.com/ZWw1pnc.jpg

Anyone remember the Conjurer class quests? Boy, I sure do.

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Allow me to fix it for you:
http://i.imgur.com/H5cPNHn.png


Reality:

http://i.imgur.com/ogMYqgw.png

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Your problem (and a lot of other people have it as well) is that you only know extremes.

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Hmm yes I can see how, "Finish the dungeon as fast as possible." Is an extreme stance to take.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Hmm yes I can see how, "Finish the dungeon as fast as possible." Is an extreme stance to take.

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"Funny how I almost never am left to die by a healer who is dpsing though, while the jerks who want to afk and watch netflix on their 2nd monitor are perfectly happy to watch me slowly die from unavoidable AE's and not do anything about it. "

This is what i was refferring to.

Funny though, i somehow feel like people think i am one of the people who acts like "i only heal".
While i dont even play heal often.
And when i do i try to maximize my effort.

I am just all against the "THEY HAVE TO CAUSE I SAY THEY DO".

Ah yes, another round of:
"If we just tell people there is no elephant in the room, it'll go away."

Count me out on this one <.<

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

Allow me to fix it for you:
http://i.imgur.com/H5cPNHn.png


Reality:

http://i.imgur.com/ogMYqgw.png

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I love the use of the Dragonball P pictures.

That moment memers come to prove you're right

*feels good man*

https://www.mememaker.net/static/ima...es/4622234.jpg

In my datacentre..the healers usually DPS without whining.

Why? Because we all want to clear the content/dungeon/24man asap and proceed on to do other stuffs.

I don't know what kind of culture NA/EU has it, but on JP we do it this way and nobody complains.

threads like this are the best way to pass the time before stormblood comes out, people seriously never get tired of arguing over this stuff o.o

Yoshi is in a position where he would not tell a customer "this is wrong! you must do X!" He knows a good chunk of a player base only want to heal and what he said it's true, however, he "forgot" to add: but it will be a good idea to do it.

It's funny because the only reason he said that was to avoid any possible shit show (Yoshi P say you have to DPS, so DPS or else!) but he fails, the other side is using his word to justify their play style.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

"Funny how I almost never am left to die by a healer who is dpsing though, while the jerks who want to afk and watch netflix on their 2nd monitor are perfectly happy to watch me slowly die from unavoidable AE's and not do anything about it. "

This is what i was refferring to.

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I don't know what they are doing but the answer is usually, "being an incredibly bad healer." And I don't even mean in the sense that by default I think all healers who only heal are mediocre at best, I mean they let the tank die or let dps die or get themselves killed doing idiotic things like medica 2 on the pull.

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Originally Posted by Dalmacus

I don't know what kind of culture NA/EU has it, but on JP we do it this way and nobody complains.

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Here, in Europe you have special snowflakes which you should not ask'em to do their job since you ain't paying their sub ! :)

Hell one day im gonna pay a month sub to a "only healing snowflake" so i will be abble to tell him what to do one month straight :cool:

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Originally Posted by Dalmacus

In my datacentre..the healers usually DPS without whining.

Why? Because we all want to clear the content/dungeon/24man asap and proceed on to do other stuffs.

I don't know what kind of culture NA/EU has it, but on JP we do it this way and nobody complains.

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I just don't think its as common as people are making it out to be.