PSA - Cleric Stance and vote kicking

Whoever is thinking to kick out a party mate, needs weight the time needed to replace a member "in progress" first and continue duty then, vs continue with party as it is.

Whatever the reason for wanting kick out the member is.

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Originally Posted by Freyt

And if I'm tanking in your party and you kick the healer, I'll leave. Thanks for giving me a free ride out of your intolerant pug.

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Is that supposed to put pressure? It's funny how people think they can put themselves above others just because of their class choice.
Healer sucks and doesn't want to improve? Kick
Tank sucks and doesn't want to improve? Kick
DPS sucks and doesn't want to improve? Kick

I main healer and I don't get this "I don't dps just cuz", I really don't. Why would I stand around not doing anything? I dps-ed with CS already and I will dps without it. I didn't have a particular beef with CS, I always worked well with it but in terms of game design, it is a catastrophe. That's why I'm glad it is being removed.

Healers that don't use their dps skills just because just want to be lazy and I wish they would unsub. On this note, let me say I refuse to use rescue on bad players that just don't want to bother avoiding AoEs. If you try and are in a genuine pinch, I will do my best to help but I just don't support people being lazy and stupid

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Whoever is thinking to kick out a party mate, needs weight the time needed to replace a member "in progress" first and continue duty then, vs continue with party as it is.

Whatever the reason for wanting kick out the member is.

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No class should have a free pass just because of queue times. I rather run a dungeon that's 95% done all-over again than support this kind of behaviour. This is exactly why DF is such a pain in the ass, because everyone just ignores all the crap because of queue time.

If you queue for a duty, you should be a valuable addition to the party, not a blockhead with an attitude.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

So what your saying is the gameplay design of healers is bad? They should have more engaging healing gameplay? I agree with you.

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Not the person you were quoting (obv), but I agree w/ this.

However, regardless of how we wish the healing in this game worked, healers are currently massively overpowered in the healing department. It is very, very hard to put a healer in a position where they actually have to be constantly healing. Even in that situation you can typically get at least some DPS in. As an example, lets say your tank pulls from the start of the dungeon to the boss gate (which is basically impossible in current dungeons) and then proceeds to pop no CDs. As a WHM you can Swiftcast Holy -> Aero 3 -> Holy -> Holy -> heal a bunch and yell at the tank. As an AST you can Celestial Opposition -> Gravity. SCH requires slightly more prep time but in the absolute least you can get off 1-3 DoTs and Bane them. WHM and AST essentially have no excuses even in the most dire of situations and SCH is only slightly more difficult.

Honestly, like, I give healers who don't DPS a free pass all the time because I just can't be bothered. But it is seriously offensive to me that I'm having to actually pay attention to the game and keep my GCD rolling while they literally just stand there and every so often use a GCD. I can understand at lower levels where you're still getting used to everything, but the closer you get to level cap the less it becomes acceptable. I've never yelled at a healer for not DPSing and I probably never will, but I completely empathize with those that do. It's just a game and etc etc but it's a bit horrible to expect your team to do all the work while you watch Netflix - not exactly the most team-player attitude to have in an MMO, a genre defined by working as a team.

Also if you have a disability tell the group that you have it, we can't be expected to just brush every lazy healer off because they might have a disability. That would be ridiculous and would give a free pass to everyone in every role to play badly.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

So what your saying is the gameplay design of healers is bad? They should have more engaging healing gameplay? I agree with you.

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That's not what I said.

But I am going to agree that healer potencies are ridiculous compared to the content's lack of damage, HOWEVER, most of the content is tuned towards newbies, not veterans who've been playing since the inception of ARR, and even then, with the lowest iLv, you can still do it and deal damage too. The only place you'll find some degree of challenge for healers is extreme primals, and mostly savages. I mean, it was really difficult to do A4S at item level cap in 3.0, that's what you want, right? Go look at Elysium's A4S kill and look at how the healers are mostly healing, and occasionally doing damage, because your post tells me "healers are the problem, not the content", but it's the other way round, in fact.

But either way, if you're looking for more ways to heal, they're on their way, but if you're looking for more opportunities to heal, just don't bother healing someone who's at 90% HP, and heal them when they're at 20% or 10% even, there's your healing challenge, because as far as Yoshi is concerned, 4.0 is supposed to ease the disparity between players, so newbie healers can have just as much of an easy time as veteran healers. So from what I can assume, we're going to be getting the same frequency of damage as we do now, which isn't all that much.

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

I dont care about that changes. lol

I still WONT dps when I play as HEALER in dungeons groups!

Why people think healer classes have to do 2 jobs and tank and dps classes only do 1 job..?

Once DPS's or Tanks has the same healspells healer has, only then I will DPS as healer in groups too! o_o

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I cannot believe even after the announcements players like this will still stubbornly sit on their ass and do nothing for 80% of a normal dungeon.

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...No class should have a free pass just because of queue times. I rather run a dungeon that's 95% done all-over again than support this kind of behaviour. This is exactly why DF is such a pain in the ass, because everyone just ignores all the crap because of queue time.

If you queue for a duty, you should eb a valuable addition to the party, not a blockhead with an attitude.

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Whoever wants make a personal crusade against all and everyone they think are "unworthy" of running a duty, your choice.

Lemme then know how you were able to differentiate someone playing "bad" because bad attitude or any kind of disabilities. Maybe you don't even bother why this is happening: that player is "bad" so lets get rid of that scum. Way to go.

/notsigned.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Maybe you don't even bother why this is happening: that player is "bad" so lets get rid of that scum. Way to go.

/notsigned.

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I find it funny that you jump at my throat for judging people without reason while you judge exactly how I will determine something like that?

If a player is obviously not performing well 8whatever that means for everyone is their own choice), I will try to engage with them. I'll try to talk and if it is an obvious lack of knowledge, I'll try to help them. However, if the reply is "shut up and do your own job" or "it's my sub, I play the way I want to", i think we can agree it's an attitude problem.

Just to calm your racing heart, no, I do not make snarky comments when i try to talk. I hope that clears this up.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

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Yeah I am pretty much in the same boat as you. I am not going to make an issue in a pug unless it's clear we aren't going to clear at which point I usually just vote dismiss. Getting hissy over it is too much hassle. When you know what your doing dpsing is relatively simple. Infact its probably the only reason I have found dungeons passable to heal usually. I just recognise there is an issue which doesn't seem to be being addressed.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

That's not what I said.

But I am going to agree that healer potencies are ridiculous compared to the content's lack of damage, HOWEVER, most of the content is tuned towards newbies, not veterans who've been playing since the inception of ARR, and even then, with the lowest iLv, you can still do it and deal damage too. The only place you'll find some degree of challenge for healers is extreme primals, and mostly savages. I mean, it was really difficult to do A4S at item level cap in 3.0, that's what you want, right? Go look at Elysium's A4S kill and look at how the healers are mostly healing, and occasionally doing damage, because your post tells me "healers are the problem, not the content", but it's the other way round, in fact.

But either way, if you're looking for more ways to heal, they're on their way, but if you're looking for more opportunities to heal, just don't bother healing someone who's at 90% HP, and heal them when they're at 20% or 10% even, there's your healing challenge, because as far as Yoshi is concerned, 4.0 is supposed to ease the disparity between players, so newbie healers can have just as much of an easy time as veteran healers. So from what I can assume, we're going to be getting the same frequency of damage as we do now, which isn't all that much.

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I was being a smartass.

My main point is having one aspect being boring doesn't justify the other being slightly less boring. The fact that either is boring is an issue.

I think the issue with fights is a mix of the two. WoW went through something similar in the past though they handled it badly to start with. Simply put not being able to heal everyone to full in two spells means some throught and time has to go in to prioritising what heals you use. You develop a triage system where your having to manage which heals you use, who you let be damaged for a bit while you deal with someone else and how you work additional issues like debuffs and fight mechanics into the situation. Of course that doesn't help if there isn't enough damage. I get having a soft learning curve but it is actually pretty uneven and the talk about dps just confuses the issue for a lot of new healers. Its too much all or nothing with nothing in the middle.

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Originally Posted by Chessala

No class should have a free pass just because of queue times. I rather run a dungeon that's 95% done all-over again than support this kind of behaviour. This is exactly why DF is such a pain in the ass, because everyone just ignores all the crap because of queue time.

If you queue for a duty, you should be a valuable addition to the party, not a blockhead with an attitude.

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Its a randomised grouping device in an open public forum. I get standing for principles but if your chose to use DF rather than play with friends it means rolling the dice and accepting some times your going to get a bad roll. No amount of principle is going to change that.

While I didn't get to watch all of the Live letter yesterday before work. Did YoshiP Say anything about retracting earlier statements on Healers? That is that dungeons and other instances not being designed around Healers dealing damage, or that healers should deal damage if they feel like they can? If not then understand that if you kick a healer for not DPSing or doing enough damage in your opinion, you most likely will get suspended for abusing the kick system. I suspect that SE might even be a bit more touchy about kick abuse in SB as YoshiP has stated repeatedly they want to make the game more friendly for new players, and the community has become rather hostile to those who aren't preforming at a certain arbitrary level.

That can fall under difference in play styles

That reason is why a LOT of people aren't running healers in this game, the expectations on the healer are enormous, when compared to say a DPS class.

The Hypocrisy in this thread is hilarious to say the least. think about this for a second. please tell healers they should be dpsing and if they dont listen then, its ok to kick. How can you tell a healer what to do if they aren't listening I say kick em!!.... *does not listen to Yoshi P saying healer dps is not needed or necessary*

Well I guess its time to quit healing then. I signed up to heal. Not be a half assed DPS.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

Well I guess its time to quit healing then. I signed up to heal. Not be a half assed DPS.

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Healer is about making sure the group have the HP to survive at the same time to make sure they survive easier, a dead mob is better for the whole group, Less cd from tank, less healing = less mechanics. What is there to heal when you can do a whole expert dungeon with just eos doing the heal? You said you sign up being a healer, but what excactly are you healing when everyone has 80% or more hp?

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Originally Posted by Pancakesplease

That reason is why a LOT of people aren't running healers in this game, the expectations on the healer are enormous, when compared to say a DPS class.

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WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?
No seriously, whaaaaaaaat? Tanks and dps have way more pressure than healers so please.

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Originally Posted by Pancakesplease

That reason is why a LOT of people aren't running healers in this game, the expectations on the healer are enormous, when compared to say a DPS class.

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This has never been my experience and I've healed a lot in this game. Healer DPS tends to be very rhythmic and easy to get the hang of, and damage that needs to be healed tends to come in very predictable spikes. If you're not familiar with when those spikes are, you can play it more cautious while you learn how far you can push your DPS, but I've never ever seen a healer called out for doing a conservative amount of DPS instead of an optimal amount. The only ones that get called out are the healers you see just standing around doing nothing most of the time or overzealously casting big heals on people with full or near-full HP already. Even those healers seldom get a word said in their direction.

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Originally Posted by Tobalito

The Hypocrisy in this thread is hilarious to say the least. think about this for a second. please tell healers they should be dpsing and if they dont listen then, its ok to kick. How can you tell a healer what to do if they aren't listening I say kick em!!.... *does not listen to Yoshi P saying healer dps is not needed or necessary*

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"Healer DPS is not needed"... Sure and I don't have to use my AOEs... or keep my GCD spinning... or use buffs... Those are all technically "optional" but I'm bad if I play that way, just like healers are bad if they don't try to use the potential of their class. The fact that they're changing healer nukes to be MND-based to remove the need to stance dance, and are removing acc requirements so healers don't have to worry about melding acc anymore, only goes to prove that SE has embraced healer DPS and it's time to retire that argument. They're even getting a role ability that gives them a damage buff!

Look at WHM's Heavensward job additions:
- Stone III: Damage
- Aero III: Damage
- Assize: Hybrid Damage or Heal
- Asylum: Extra HoT can keep ticking heals while you're in Cleric
- Tetragrammaton: Instant cast big heal lets you push DPS even further before switching back out of Cleric

3 of them explicitly do damage and the other 2 make DPS easier.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

Well I guess its time to quit healing then. I signed up to heal. Not be a half assed DPS.

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Don't let the Stone III hit you on the way out~

Seriously though, if you can't see the healing benefits of spamming Holy as a "half assed DPS" for 10 seconds then I don't know what to tell you.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

"Healer DPS is not needed"... Sure and I don't have to use my AOEs... or keep my GCD spinning... or use buffs... Those are all technically "optional" but I'm bad if I play that way, just like healers are bad if they don't try to use the potential of their class. The fact that they're changing healer nukes to be MND-based to remove the need to stance dance, and are removing acc requirements so healers don't have to worry about melding acc anymore, only goes to prove that SE has embraced healer DPS and it's time to retire that argument. They're even getting a role ability that gives them a damage buff!

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Oh I understand fully, and trust me I love to DPS as a scholar, it does make runs go by so much faster. That being said with all these changes you stated, Yoshi still says its Optional. A healers job is to keep people alive, that is it. If they want to use their damaging abilities thats fine, its even ok to let them know as many healers going into a healing role may think it unwise to not be dedicated to only healing on a healing role lol. It is not ok to call a healer lazy or bad if they choose not to. They kept you alive, they did their job. Yoshi has even stated that he wants Cleric stance out of the game, but people would be up in arms if they took away healer dps which is why this has all been kept in in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Tobalito

Oh I understand fully, and trust me I love to DPS as a scholar, it does make runs go by so much faster. That being said with all these changes you stated, Yoshi still says its Optional. A healers job is to keep people alive, that is it. If they want to use their damaging abilities thats fine, its even ok to let them know as many healers going into a healing role may think it unwise to not be dedicated to only healing on a healing role lol. It is not ok to call a healer lazy or bad if they choose not to. They kept you alive, they did their job. Yoshi has even stated that he wants Cleric stance out of the game, but people would be up in arms if they took away healer dps which is why this has all been kept in in the first place.

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He's being diplomatic because it serves no benefit for the lead developer to tell players how to play, regardless of their whole. If you are going to keep echoing the sentiment healer DPS is entirely optional, I trust you don't complain about Ice Mages or tanks not using cooldowns? You can't have both ways. Either those players are bad/lazy or it's simply their preferred playstyle.

With the healer role Top Priority is haling and removing debuffs.
If you do that and there is room for DPSing you should dps a bit. Only then.
Saying you won't ever do DPS as healer is like saying you won't use your buffs as a DPS and spam only the basic rotation.
Yes it is your right to do so and you can do it but this doesn't mean you play it correctly and efficiently.
Same goes for tanks who never use their shield buffs when they pull more than 2-3 mobs.
Yes you don't "have to" but this doesn't mean you shouldn't.
Still priority with healer is to keep everyone alive and debuff and DPS only when you have room and time for this.
Remember if you think Healer doesn't have to do DPS at all then Tanks don't have to use CDs ever and DPS doesn't have to use their buffs and advanced rotations since spamming lets only only their basic 1-2-3 combo is good enough.
Everyone must play their role to it's full potential as much as they can.

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Originally Posted by Tobalito

That being said with all these changes you stated, Yoshi still says its Optional. A healers job is to keep people alive, that is it. If they want to use their damaging abilities thats fine, its even ok to let them know as many healers going into a healing role may think it unwise to not be dedicated to only healing on a healing role lol. It is not ok to call a healer lazy or bad if they choose not to. They kept you alive, they did their job. Yoshi has even stated that he wants Cleric stance out of the game, but people would be up in arms if they took away healer dps which is why this has all been kept in in the first place.

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So if I just do my 1-2-3 combo on DPS it's fine because Yoshi didn't say I had to do more? I mean, there's a 90 minute timer on the instance, it's ok if it takes 89:59 to clear it, we still accomplished the objective right?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

He's being diplomatic because it serves no benefit for the lead developer to tell players how to play, regardless of their whole. If you are going to keep echoing the sentiment healer DPS is entirely optional, I trust you don't complain about Ice Mages or tanks not using cooldowns? You can't have both ways. Either those players are bad/lazy or it's simply their preferred playstyle.

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Again, you aren't listening... Ice mages don't do damage. In a Damage role that's significant. A tank not using cooldowns is not doing what he can to stay alive, in a Tank role that is crucial. Healing in a healing role... that is all that is needed for you to keep people alive. I'm just saying to prove my point, so many excuses being made when the lead producer clearly states.. its not needed. Being diplomatic has nothing to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Tobalito

It is not ok to call a healer lazy or bad if they choose not to. They kept you alive, they did their job.

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lazy
adjective
1. unwilling to work or use energy.
characterized by lack of effort or activity.
showing a lack of care.

Sorry, but a healer that refuses to DPS when they could IS lazy by definition. And if they fail to create the ample openings to DPS in casual content, they are bad.
The fact that they did their job has no bearing on that matter. Yes they did their job, but their job is only a part-time job, because the devs made healing OP and easy. Don't be surprised people aren't going to treat you like you work 40 hours a week if you only work 8 a week. And that's actually the ratio we're talking about - healers can have around 70-80% cleric stance uptime in dungeons. Lazy and bad are the correct words to use here.

And if you want that to change, petition to SE that they make healing and tanking full-time jobs.

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Originally Posted by Tobalito

Again, you aren't listening... Ice mages don't do damage. In a Damage role that's significant. A tank not using cooldowns is not doing what he can to stay alive, in a Tank role that is crucial. Healing in a healing role... that is all that is needed for you to keep people alive. I'm just saying to prove my point, so many excuses being made when the lead producer clearly states.. its not needed. Being diplomatic has nothing to do with it.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...s_is_over_12k/

Yeah Ice mages do damage. Not very good damage, but damage nontheless.

Anyway I haven't been keeping up with this thread, I honestly didn't think people would discuss this so much on here but I do agree with healers should dps. I won't kick one for not dpsing but it's extremely lazy especially now that people won't have to stance dance.

The removal of cleric stance has essentially turned healer roles into dps roles (support roles) with green Job icons and very strong healing capabilities.

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Originally Posted by Tobalito

I'm just saying to prove my point,t.

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Prove what point? That overhealing is good or the fact when there is nothing to and you wont even hit some buttons to dps, will make it easier for a whole group? If adds die faster, makes the tank using less cds to keep himself easy to heal Or when dps runs out of tp on a big back of adds. Or when you do zurvan and there is ABOSLUTTELY nothing to heal before you fall off platform. When soar happens there is a chance few people die unless they don't screw up? Then again requires more healing. The most ironic thing is those healers who actually only heals are the ones who will never ever do a character growth og progress. I just was in a a11's where I actually dpsed a lot and kept EVERYONE ALIVE alone, because whm kept getitng killed. Or the other whm I had in a9s who overhealed insanly and had no MP left. You are just proving what resource you are to the group and you are a very bad one.

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Originally Posted by Tobalito

Again, you aren't listening... Ice mages don't do damage. In a Damage role that's significant. A tank not using cooldowns is not doing what he can to stay alive, in a Tank role that is crucial. Healing in a healing role... that is all that is needed for you to keep people alive. I'm just saying to prove my point, so many excuses being made when the lead producer clearly states.. its not needed. Being diplomatic has nothing to do with it.

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Correction! Ice Mages do crap damage, but they still deal damage. We are allocated 90 minutes for a dungeon. Therefore, so long as it's completed within that time frame, it's technically considered "successful." As for tanks. If we abide by the holy trinity, they are only meant to hold aggro. I can do that spamming Flash. No other job can literally do nothing and still be considered good. In fact, last night I ran Dun Scaith, where my co-healer had the healing aspect covered to such an extent I did not turn off Cleric once throughout the entirety of the second boss and barely dipped out during the third or fourth; just brief moments to cover high aoe damage. If I had chosen not to DPS, I would have been 100% useless for that second boss and upwards of 85% for the other two. Would you call me a good player when I'll spend more time alt-tabbing or making dinner than actually playing the game because two dedicated healers simply wasn't necessary per my example?

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Originally Posted by Raikki

So if I just do my 1-2-3 combo on DPS it's fine because Yoshi didn't say I had to do more? I mean, there's a 90 minute timer on the instance, it's ok if it takes 89:59 to clear it, we still accomplished the objective right?

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Already gave my response to this gotcha moment you're trying to throw my way. Lemme fix your comparison though, 123 combo on a dps only is like a healer using only cure and nothing else to heal.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

lazy
adjective
1. unwilling to work or use energy.
characterized by lack of effort or activity.
showing a lack of care.

Sorry, but a healer that refuses to DPS when they could IS lazy by definition. And if they fail to create the ample openings to DPS in casual content, they are bad.
The fact that they did their job has no bearing on that matter. Yes they did their job, but their job is only a part-time job, because the devs made healing OP and easy. Don't be surprised people aren't going to treat you like you work 40 hours a week if you only work 8 a week. And that's actually the ratio we're talking about - healers can have around 70-80% cleric stance uptime in dungeons. Lazy and bad are the correct words to use here.

And if you want that to change, petition to SE that they make healing and tanking full-time jobs.

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Again, im kinda done stating my opinion as this will just go back and forth. In the end this entire thread imo is incredibly hypocritical and unwilling to listen which I find hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Crysten

Don't let the Stone III hit you on the way out~

Seriously though, if you can't see the healing benefits of spamming Holy as a "half assed DPS" for 10 seconds then I don't know what to tell you.

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I know the benefits of it seeing as I did it all the time back when I was spamming ARF for my relic. My point here is that I don't see much point in me just spamming holy all throughout the dungeon while occasionally throwing out a heal. Yes I think that's not much more than being a half assed DPS. Power to you if you like that, but I'm tired of it. If I'm going to have to do that even MORE now, I figure I might as well do it full time on a job that does it a lot better, and SAM looked like a blast to play from the live letter.

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Originally Posted by Tobalito

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I don't think the lead developer would even bother creating more damage-making abilities for the healers if he truly felt that it wasn't necessary. He would just double down on all healing abilities. To be honest, they wouldn't even care to make healing damage be based on MND if they didn't care about healers doing damage. That doesn't make any sense.


And I don't fault you for wanting to just be healer. But if you are the healer in the dungeon, the tank is doing everything they can to mitigate damage so its easier on you, the dps is doing their rotations perfectly to maximize their damage so that the dungeon goes faster and putting much less stress on you as the healer, and you can't even do something so simple as throwing out some dots with a couple of Stone IV's during your down time? The game has made even easier for you to do such a thing, and yet you still refuse?

If that's you, you are doing your party a great disservice. The skill set is right there, the buttons are on your hotbar, yet you'd rather use 60% of your overall capabilities. That's just lazy.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

I know the benefits of it seeing as I did it all the time back when I was spamming ARF for my relic. My point here is that I don't see much point in me just spamming holy all throughout the dungeon while occasionally throwing out a heal. Yes I think that's not much more than being a half assed DPS. If I'm going to have to do that even MORE now, I might as well do it on a job that does it a lot better, and SAM looked like a blast to play from the live letter.

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Half assed?!? What even???? Do you even know how much damage a whm can put out with holy spam and assize??? They are almost on par with SMNs!!!

I vote for renaming the healer role into support...
And before someone chimes in and says, support is only buffing/debuffing:

support verb [ T ] (HELP)
​ to help someone emotionally or in a practical way

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

I don't think the lead developer would even bother creating more damage-making abilities for the healers if he truly felt that it wasn't necessary. He would just double down on all healing abilities. To be honest, they wouldn't even care to make healing damage be based on MND if they didn't care about healers doing damage. That doesn't make any sense.


And I don't fault you for wanting to just be healer. But if you are the healer in the dungeon, the tank is doing everything they can to mitigate damage so its easier on you, the dps is doing their rotations perfectly to maximize their damage so that the dungeon goes faster and putting much less stress on you as the healer, and you can't even do something so simple as throwing out some dots with a couple of Stone IV's during your down time? The game has made even easier for you to do such a thing, and yet you still refuse?

If that's you, you are doing your party a great disservice. The skill set is right there, the buttons are on your hotbar, and you'd rather use 60% of your overall capabilities. That's just lazy.

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I love doing dps as a healer, I absolutely love it and I find it a lot of fun. I am merely stating that it is my choice, and I do it very well. That may not be every player and I don't think they should be called out if they did their role well as is. Honestly healers getting more dps abilities sounds perfectly reasonable. Stronger mobs for leveling purposes require a stronger hitting spell, especially coming from 2.0 to HW. We will need to see what kind of DPS abilities they get for Stormblood but seeing as how with the upgrade of spells they may get something extra to balance out losing a spell in the first place. we will have to see how it plays out.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

I know the benefits of it seeing as I did it all the time back when I was spamming ARF for my relic. My point here is that I don't see much point in me just spamming holy all throughout the dungeon while occasionally throwing out a heal. Yes I think that's not much more than being a half assed DPS. Power to you if you like that, but I'm tired of it. If I'm going to have to do that even MORE now, I figure I might as well do it full time on a job that does it a lot better, and SAM looked like a blast to play from the live letter.

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I mean if you see yourself as a dps rather than healer, then I'm all for you switching. Healers should want to heal FIRST, but should also be willing to use the rest of their skill set as well.

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

Half assed?!? What even???? Do you even know how much damage a whm can put out with holy spam and assize??? They are almost on par with SMNs!!!

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What I mean is, I don't find it that entertaining to just sit there and spam one button throughout the dungeon.

I know Holy spam is great numbers wise. That isn't my point. If I'm going to be DPS throughout most of the dungeon, I might as well do it on a Job were I'm achieving the same thing as WHM and is more built for DPS. Like you said, SMN.

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Originally Posted by Chessala

I find it funny that you jump at my throat...

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I didn't. In the quote, had carefully removed your name and post link, to make my answer much more generic. Did also used "whoever" instead of "If you", and used "you" as plural everywhere. Maybe it was not sufficient to make clear there were nothing against "Chessala". Sorry if you got that impression but not intended. Hope that clears this up too.

I'm going to run an experiment. For 5 ex roulettes, I'm only going to heal since that's the job I queue for. Then for the next 5, I'm going to strickly dps using no gcd heals because that's what the "community" wants. I'll record which ones I get kicked from.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

What I mean is, I don't find it that entertaining to just sit there and spam one button throughout the dungeon.

I know Holy spam is great numbers wise. That isn't my point. If I'm going to be DPS throughout most of the dungeon, I might as well do it on a Job were I'm achieving the same thing as WHM and is more built for DPS. Like you said, SMN.

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Irony right there. Most healers who doesn't dps actually just hit 1 button most of the time lol.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

I'm going to run an experiment. For 5 ex roulettes, I'm only going to heal since that's the job I queue for. Then for the next 5, I'm going to strickly dps using no gcd heals because that's what the "community" wants. I'll record which ones I get kicked from.

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No one said they wanted healers to not heal. Not a single person.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

I'm going to run an experiment. For 5 ex roulettes, I'm only going to heal since that's the job I queue for. Then for the next 5, I'm going to strickly dps using no gcd heals because that's what the "community" wants. I'll record which ones I get kicked from.

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Not a good test. What the community wants is a healer who meets the minimal healing requirements while adding dps in low to no healing intensity windows.

A better test would be 5 roulette with only heals, and 5 roulettes with added dps while keeping everyone healthy, then see how many comms you get for each set respectively.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

I'm going to run an experiment. For 5 ex roulettes, I'm only going to heal since that's the job I queue for. Then for the next 5, I'm going to strickly dps using no gcd heals because that's what the "community" wants. I'll record which ones I get kicked from.

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As long as you don't let people die I don't care how you heal. If you start not healing you'll get the boot all the same.

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

snip

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I actually did not know about that, thank you for the info ^^

FINALLY no more bugs with cleric stance refusing to activate / desactivate Y.Y