What does that have to do with co-existence??Quote:
Originally Posted by WiiSam
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12-06-2011, 06:13 AMLucifer
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12-06-2011, 06:18 AMRokienStill don't see your point. Also, still no one has responded to me ; ;Quote:
Originally Posted by WiiSam
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12-06-2011, 06:28 AMTangoI've posted in that thread and didn't see anything wrong with what happened. Competition for a coffer/NM is ok. If it was an exp camp, a different story, since there are plenty of exp camps.Quote:
Originally Posted by WiiSam
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12-06-2011, 06:32 AMdarkstarpoet1so there's someone else being a baby because they are scared of competition. the point?Quote:
Originally Posted by WiiSam
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12-06-2011, 06:39 AMRokien
This is what instances create!~ Why would you want something this horrible be created!~?
~BABIES~ -
12-06-2011, 06:39 AMNadienKirisame
Hmmm... both sides of this are wrong and both sides are right. Each side goes the extreme and can not see eye to eye to save themselves... and so sadly they argue and bicker back and forth "We are better and we are right and you are the minority"... odd thing is its coming from both camps. Sadly it is in you humans nature to do this and most of the time it is nigh impossible to reach a compromise...
The cat is bemused =-.-= -
12-06-2011, 06:51 AMTangoPlease read the thread again, or for the first since it seems you didn't bother to. The people arguing in favor for open world content have all agreed on the need for instances and other sorts of content. This wiisam character is the only person who refuses to budge from his view that open world content and competition are bad!Quote:
Originally Posted by NadienKirisame
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12-06-2011, 06:59 AMKiote
Personally, I feel for people who have issue with coffer keys. It's not an issue i have experienced because my LSs do coffer runs quite effectively. But when it comes to treasure chest. I do not believe that the Key should drop off a single enemy like they do in the beastman strongholds. It may be fine there i suppose, but in a Dungeon keys should drop off everything and anything, they should be rare, but not impossible. And of course, a thief should be able to pick the lock with skill, not luck.
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12-06-2011, 07:01 AMNadienKirisameSome are and others are not... not all on your side are the same as you. I have read all the posts on here and in the other thread linked to this one about the bad behavior. Yes yes a number of people agree that to have one without the other does not work and that would be true and yes I know wiisam will not budge from his view... most humans don't even after you slap them in the face with how wrong their view is... not that your view wiisam is wrong it just will not play out well for the game as a whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tango
I guess what I am getting at and trying to say is... you all keep posting in here for one way or another and you are really not going to change anyone's view of which is right and which is wrong. Though I guess humans do have that thing called "hope" that they like to cling to and hope that they can say things that will actually get someone to change how they feel about something... ah hope...
The cat is bemused =-.-= -
12-06-2011, 07:07 AMRokien
If you read all of em, you should have seen the link to the other thread!~~~~~~~~~~ not the
"bad baby crying one" -
12-06-2011, 07:07 AMTangoI really don't care if I change anyone's mind on this forum. Most of the filth coming out of someone's mouth hear lowers the IQ of most who read it. What I hope for is that the forums reps and devs notice that people want competition, open world content and content that lasts longer than one patch to the next. Give us something to work towards for a year to get a godly item. Either way, if someone doesn't say it, the devs certainly will not know we want it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NadienKirisame
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12-06-2011, 07:16 AMKiote
I'm with you Tango, I'd rather work for something great for a year than have to get something new every patch.. I would like content that actually requires a little dedication. If I wanted a one time experience, I'd be playing a regular RPG.
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12-06-2011, 07:18 AMNadienKirisameNo I have been reading through that one as well it came before I think both this thread and the other one... because I'm so curious by nature I sit here and read through almost everything that is posted on these forums... erm with the exception of course if I see it was posted by Neptune now a days I just stay away from his threads along with a few others that make some pretty mindless threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokien
Also I will reply to your earlier posts about your sig... I have played that game and it was eh ok. To much instancing when I was playing and as I said I think the game needs both to work... you must have instance events(party/raids) and you must have open world events(party/raid).
Because at the end of the day you humans like to fight each other... competition as you say your group beating out the other groups to possibly get better items and make yourselves feel all the higher and better for it...
The cat is bemused =-.-= -
12-06-2011, 07:28 AMTangoShould probably avoid silvertearen or however you spell that as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by NadienKirisame
Didn't realize we had non-humans here, I'll try to be more careful with my words. Anyways, yes, this is what we want, and by we I mean a segment of the community that should be heard and listened to.Quote:
Originally Posted by NadienKirisame
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12-06-2011, 07:31 AMRokienI think this argument is over!~ hmm, mabinogi has MANY instances(if it didn't I'd still play it) with open world. People should just go play that! :P Fixed all your problems AGAIN.Quote:
Originally Posted by NadienKirisame
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12-06-2011, 07:35 AMNadienKirisameI'll keep an eye out for that one thank you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tango
Erm sorry I guess I shouldn't put just humans its normal in most creatures nature for competition... the strong prey upon the weak and thus they survive... or survival of the fittest as they say. The world if full of competition and in striving for the best you will hit one of two outcomes... your race as a whole will collapse in on itself and die out(killing itself) or you will reach a new level of understanding and power and move out through the cosmos... for only moving out can greater power and competition come.
Though it is sad that I think Yoshi did say he wanted to focus on making dungeons and such instanced... well one can hope the devs read these and see that others wish for open world events as well and they can make both equally rewarding for each.
The cat is bemused =-.-= -
12-06-2011, 07:40 AMNadienKirisameThere never was an argument between you and me... I have also played mabinogi. It was an interesting game but I just couldn't bring myself to keep playing since I have so many games going on right now...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokien
The cat is bemused =-.-= -
12-06-2011, 07:41 AMRokien
Oh, I was saying you won the argument between the instanced and non instanced players by saying that!^.^ Just like giving people bad times.
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12-06-2011, 07:52 AMEtiennStrong hold should remain open world, and there should be more of it, and hnm, plus instanced stuff. FFXI did it fine, Drama LAMA.Quote:
Originally Posted by WiiSam
WWWAAAAAAHBULANCE. -
12-06-2011, 09:06 AMdarkstarpoet1that's all i ask for myself. give more of both. right now there is not enough of either, but we have people that would only do one or the other. myself, i enjoy both and would play both, but i want the choice to decide which i want to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Etienn
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12-06-2011, 10:10 AMWiiSamHold up, I think it's unfair to say I refuse to budge. My view point has changed quite a bit since this thread started and that was definitely its purpose. I have gottena lot of feedback and lots of very interesting informaiton. I thank you all again for participating and would like to apologize if anyone has misread my tone (although, if you did, it is you who has been over-emotional, I have been quite civilized.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tango
That being said let me recap where my opinion is at:
Again, I am not saying that there shouldn't be any open world content. I am saying that open world content can be as many as SE wants to implement but they she refrain from being competitive like the current strongholds. I put a link to another thread of someone complaining about the competition I find negative.
I am not saying (even though in the OP it may seem like I did, but I repeat, my opinion has evolved as mentioned above) that there shouldn't be any open world "dungeons". I am saying that they should be plenty but they should not carry important loot especially not from a drop from the boss. They should be quests/faction grinding/item collection or whatever. And like one guy said not ONE enemy should drop the key. Every mob should in the dungeon should.
I am also saying let us keep roaming NMs for the competitive factor because of how cool the idea is of a roaming NM. That competition is perfectly fine because it is AWESOME to see a roaming NM get defeated either by you or another party. So you're asking, why let the roaming NMs be competitive but not the strongholds? Because the strongholds feel more like a grind when it competitive, no awesome, epic feel to it. You're grinding against another party or person for a very boring claim to get a coffer key, eg the Natalan Sentry. How is that good competition? It is just a silly claim war/grind to try to get the key.
If I wasn't clear about anything please point it out for me and I will try to explain in more detail. Reading the above, how can anyone really say I'm not compromising? I love open world, just don't want it to be a grinding and vicious competition. That is not a valid way to promote open world content. A fun way to promote it is to provide people with reasons to want to team up and enjoy content instead of wanting at each others' throats for it. -
12-06-2011, 10:17 AMRichard_BG
why should they refrain from making it competitive? this is an mmo. mmos generally SPEW competition from every orifice and its a GREAT thing. It builds character, it's fun and it's engaging. Even in instanced raids/content there is competition to be the fastest and the most efficient and the first to complete it. xiv, like any other mmo, should house competition in instanced content as well as open world - EQUALLY.
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12-06-2011, 10:23 AMWiiSamYou're as stubborn as I am. Instances make the competition fair and civil, thats why they were created!Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_BG
If they both foster competition, which is a good thing, why don't we just have all open world? or all instances? Don't be ignorant, please. The competition in instances is a completely different ball game to the competition in open world. In instances you work at your own pace and can only fail if YOU aren't good enough. In open world there are many varying outside factors that can screw up your chances. Factors that have nothing to do with an individual or a groups SKILL. -
12-06-2011, 10:30 AMRichard_BGbecause catering to both sides is never a bad thing? Open world/instanced competition are two forms of competition just as everything in the entire world has multiple forms of competition? Online sales vs Brick and Mortar stores?Quote:
Originally Posted by WiiSam
Being stubborn is pushing your one sided opinions on the masses while I on the other hand try and offer up both sides of the solution. The reason there isn't just one or the other ALREADY is because a smart company doesn't exclude specific groups of people. FFXI has both, WoW (had) both, XIV has both. -
12-06-2011, 10:39 AMWiiSamWoW when it first came out had exactly what I am talking about. And that is when WoW was its BEST. Pre-BC. The ONLY competitive open world content they had was roaming NMs. I repeat, THE ONLY. And I am ok with roaming nms, I want roaming nms. WoW had the PERFECT recipe when it first came out. All dungeons with highly sought after loot was instanced, and open world content was promoted through quests and other various outdoor activities that were VERY engaging, especially world pvp. Every dungeon, I repeat EVERY dungeon, even had a semi-tough outdoor area that most times you couldn't blast threw solo. You rolled up with your group, killed some shit, saw other people doing the same, got to instance entrance and did your thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_BG
I love that you used the old WoW as an example. Nothing was better. -
12-06-2011, 10:54 AMRichard_BG
so you would rather have open world NMs that drop mediocre loot that people can do for kicks and have all of the best saught after loot instanced only? Is that a fair statement?
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12-06-2011, 10:57 AMWiiSamomg man roaming NMs are fine, they can drop the best loot if they want. You're really jonesin' for something I say to be wrong. Roaming NMs are fine, the roaming NMs in WoW had at least one piece of loot that was comparable to the end game dungeon loot. It's fine. I gave my reasons as to why roaming NMs are a GOOD thing. Let us move on from this one finally and tell me how the strongholds in their current state are a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_BG
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12-06-2011, 11:01 AMRichard_BG
i never commented on your outlook of roaming nms so you should probably chill and take a riddlin. besides the fact that xiv stronghold nms are jam packed at the end of a long path of mobs guarding it, how do you equate there being a difference between "roaming" nms such as Ixion or Sandworm vs. current stronghold nms? I mean XI had plenty of beastmen NMs that sat at the end of the proverbial trashmob route and it worked just as well.
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12-06-2011, 11:05 AMWiiSamBecause quite a few people made a point about roaming NMS saying that they are super fun because you can have tons of spectators. Its a social event. How are all those people going to get through all the trash for this "social event". It is an aspect that a lot of people love about roaming NMs, I always used to go watch other guilds beat open world bosses in WoW when my guild wasn't ready. Shit was awesome! But busting through a bunch of trash and getting to a small room in a dungeon with an NM and competing over it with another LS (or two) is a bit silly. You are all squished and screwing each others' chances. Its vicious and does not promote this whole immersion of outdoor MMo open world feel everyone wants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_BG
Edit - And your statement that got a bit riled up was created from thin air. You conjured a statement from nothing and said it was my opinion. I apologize. Riddlin consumed. -
12-06-2011, 11:07 AMRichard_BG"social events" is a pretty weak argument for not having an NM at the end of an "outdoor dungeon" roflQuote:
Originally Posted by WiiSam
aaaaaand im done. ahaha -
12-06-2011, 11:13 AMWiiSamI'm just the messenger man, what is a pretty strong argument for having an NM at the end of an "outdoor" dungeon?Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_BG
(btw I never said don't put a boss there, I said do not let him drop valuable loot. and I don't have an answer for "why else would people kill him then?" Quest or some shit, item pop, who knows, lots of options to explore there. -
12-06-2011, 11:23 AMTigerme
some people mentioned claiming system. (i.e when a person claim a mob, others are not able to help). I don't think this is a good idea. imagine you run into someone from your LS and he is dying, but you can't heal or kill the mob for him. Don't you think this is sad ? or when there is a open world boss blocking a way. isn't it better if people can group up to kill it together?
personally I think zerging is somehow necessary, although this will makes the game a lot easier...
I rather have a lot of people zerging a boss and dying, instead of having a tank tanking a boss and 5 lancer poking Ifrit's ass.
I know competition drives people crazy (I didn't get to claim any NM back in FF11 before i quit because there were way too many people camping them), but because there is a competition, it makes the loot more valuable and rare.
and talking about instance. I personally don't really like it, because when end game content is all about dungeon/instance, then people will just sit in town / outside of instance. It will make other place like ghost town, completely empty. (e.g. wow's lvling zone.)
I am not an English speaker, so please don't pick on my grammar and stuff. :) -
12-06-2011, 11:31 AMSpliceYou put it there and give it loot because half (made up statistic, but a fair amount besides) your player-base wants to do that sort of content.Quote:
Originally Posted by WiiSam
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12-06-2011, 11:33 AMSpliceI had mentioned this only for the reason of zerging mobs down and limiting certain moves a mob could use if anyone could attack it (ie. Fafnir/Nidhogg Spike Flail from ffxi).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerme
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12-06-2011, 11:47 AMJynxBecause it's easy to pick on the most flawed system in the open world. It's debating 101 find a chink in the armour and hammer away at it instead of looking at the broader picture of both sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephr
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12-06-2011, 01:15 PMLavellaNyteshadeMy sentiments exactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Ruinaru
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12-06-2011, 01:30 PMWiiSamI understand, and I can deal with half as a real number. But here is a statement to that half: All your arguments about immersion and open world feel/exploration and all that stuff, how does that apply to the strongholds? The ONLY other people you run into are just another pt that you won't even talk to. You're just going to bust right through to get the NM first. It doesn't make sense...there is no world immersion, it will feel almost identical in an instance. The only difference is you just won't see another party that you won't have any interaction with anyway in the first place. So I don't get it. Open world roaming NM, I get it, lots of interaction. But the only interaction you have with another party at a stronghold NM or a mob holding a coffer key is one of 3 things:Quote:
Originally Posted by Splice
1. Hey will you guys be done soon? We'll wait.
2. Hey screw you gai's we're stealing this.
3. Hey lets team up and zerg this bitch.
If you REALLY want content like the strongholds for reasons 1 and 2 then thats not enough to make it viable if you ask me. and you want it because of option 3 then you're a noob.
Can anybody tell me any other interaction they can possibly have at a stronghold NM with another party? -
12-06-2011, 02:51 PMDarkrose
Ok let me get this straight. The people who want open world content such as NM/Raid is for the competition?
Ok, how about this for the Competition. The largest Guild and the strongest guild with the most Members will get all the Epic Loots first, they will get all the best gears first for all their members. Sorry to all other small Guild will have to wait for their turn for the share. But how much of a long wait? They will continue to camp the area and dominant the place. When you finally get your chance that Epic Weapon is useless since now they add new Open World Content and that same Guild is camping the best thing. There is no Competition, the largest guild will get all the loots first no matter what. Did people even play other MMORPG that have Open World Content and it become the biggest problem? Take example for Aion. They have both Instances and Open World Bosses. But they make the best weapon Open World boss only. Guess what happen? The largest Guild will camp that area none stop. The drop was really low so it was being camp by the same Guild constantly. They would park their alts their and the minutes boss show up, the whole Guild was there. Do we really need to see this in the game?
What is wrong with Instances? Everyone getting a fair chance here. It is still a Competition if you like it that way. Like I said before make the Instances hard and challenging. Whoever can form the most skills, mix and match different class together, put tactic and skill in going through the Instances get the drop at the end. You can make it rare drop for the competition who get the gears first. All this without the frustration of NM camping, big guild dominant the whole area, and you will never get your turn. You know I play FFXIV since Beta and I never done stronghold. Why? Because every time I'm there some Guild is already doing it. It is not fun running there like a maniac who get there first. It is not competition, I think it very stupid and just whoever zerge the fastest. By the time you can run it, the Stronghold become useless as new contents come out. -
12-06-2011, 02:56 PMWiiSamAmen. But just to clarify for the Open-World obsessed folk, Darkrose, it isn't only about the competition. It's something along the lines of immersion and, to them, is the definition of an "mmo". To play in an open world where you can meet and join up with people so outdoor areas don't become Ghost towns. Essentially, that is what they don't want to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkrose
But what they don't get is that even if a dungeon is open world, they are worried people will /afk at an aeth or entrance to an instance right? They will do the samething for open world dungeons....just /afk outside of it or shout in uldah for a group to go do it. It's really the samething. They are all just very stubborn. -
12-06-2011, 03:08 PMRichard_BGFirst off, the largest entity does not always get the claim/kill. That has been a fact since 2003 with FFXI. My linkshell, for instance, is relatively small compared to most of the member hoarding monsters out there. We kill Stronghold NMs lowman. Everyday. We out claim 18 people. Everyday. We monopolize camps. Everyday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkrose
Stop putting false stereotypes to things you clearly do not understand. Quality > Quantity.
Secondly there is nothing WRONG with instancing. a majority if not ALL the people clamoring for more open world content want the SAME AMOUNT of instanced content to mirror it. This is called equilibrium. Open world is just as fair as instanced in terms of actually BEING competitive. The same sad sob story is being taught in our schools and our sports teams by people just like you. "Every kid needs a trophy even from the losing team" ect. It's sad.
If you can't compete in open world then stick to instancing. That option will always be there for you OBVIOUSLY since yoshida wants to take the game into instanced content for endgame. But if people want open world content don't crucify them in a forum post.