As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

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Originally Posted by Deceptistar

If the mob doesnt lucky crit the tank first xD

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Even if he does die, you usually end up completing the dungeon faster since the healer was busy DPSing. So it's a win either way.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

Even if he does die, you usually end up completing the dungeon faster since the healer was busy DPSing. So it's a win either way.

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.....I admit in one fight, namely that stupid My Little Pony on Steroids Boss in Sohr Khai, I went pure DPS on the last 2% on the boss, Tank actually died right before the boss died.
I kinda apologized but....yknow.....sacrifices. :D

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Originally Posted by DynamoAce

.....I admit in one fight, namely that stupid My Little Pony on Steroids Boss in Sohr Khai, I went pure DPS on the last 2% on the boss, Tank actually died right before the boss died.
I kinda apologized but....yknow.....sacrifices. :D

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Hey. You were simply sending them to the shortcut so they would get a head start on the next zone.

My view on the OPs topic, and a semi TLDR of their point: A healers job (and really any roles job) is to perform whatever skill is most important at any given time. The party is almost at full health, so a cure is not the most important thing at the moment, so I should throw out a DPS ability (especially if you are a SCH because you have lots of DoTs and a fairy doing half your work). Overhealing and idling when healing is not needed is not the most important thing at that given moment, so even though you are healing as a healer, you are performing your role poorly.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Most WHM/range won't use Fluid Aura/knockback unless the target is a breath away from dying. Thats cool though. If your damage is so low that a ranged hits his knockback to try and speed things along, someone should probably kick you.

You can't always tell which mobs can be knocked back. It takes some time with trial and error to see which do and which do not.

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as a tank main, I don't like or tolerate a player using me or my melee as the butt of your errors. at 60 in an Ex roulette with tome gear i fully expect you to know what your abilities do and their repercussions. except SCH/SMN I cut those guys a LIIIITTLE bit of slack because... ARC is weird.
Garuda/Fluid Aura/MCH's one oGCD isnt worth the lost DPS/positioning the entire group suffers for a test, yknow? there are proper and acceptable ways to use knockbacks (one of which being the extra damage on an immune mob), but every cooldown isnt one of them- especially if theres melee around

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

as a tank main, I don't like or tolerate a player using me or my melee as the butt of your errors. at 60 in an Ex roulette with tome gear i fully expect you to know what your abilities do and their repercussions. except SCH/SMN I cut those guys a LIIIITTLE bit of slack because... ARC is weird.
Garuda/Fluid Aura/MCH's one oGCD isnt worth the lost DPS/positioning the entire group suffers for a test, yknow? there are proper and acceptable ways to use knockbacks (one of which being the extra damage on an immune mob), but every cooldown isnt one of them- especially if theres melee around

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Like I said, 99% of the time a good player will knockback a mob when they are on the verge of death.

I know I'm in the minority when it comes to this issue, but I honestly don't like when people make dpsing as a healer seem like a requirement rather than an option. I preferred the attitude of "healers who just heal are OK healers, but healers who can dish out DPS while healing are more skilled and great to have on a team."

Now we're saying that healers have to DOS and heal and the healers who can't are utter crap at their classes. Sheesh, it makes me feel like the game's community got worse in the time I was gone from the game. Regardless of what some piece of in-game text says, this is a game and people play to have fun, not to be the best at it. Some people have varying skill levels or will be uncomfortable using cleric stance because they might forget it's on during a healing emergency. It's one thing to encourage healers to DPS, but the overall attitude of this thread leans towards the "I DEMAND YOU TO DPS" side.

The primary function of the healer is to keep the party alive, if they're doing it correctly then don't nitpick their play style. Also don't throw the hall of the novice excuse at me because that didn't exist 6 months ago.

Now if they changed it so that mind affects healer DPS then this would be a completely different argument, but considering that cleric stance basically renders all heals invalid, it's understandable if someone feels uncomfortable using it.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

The primary function of the healer is to keep the party alive, if they're doing it correctly then don't nitpick their play style. Also don't throw the hall of the novice excuse at me because that didn't exist 6 months ago.

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During ARR yes it was true
At HW it's less true

The upgrade of the healing toolkit and power only require 10% (20% on squishy tank) of your capabilities to keep a group alive
Savage content will require more attention due to high damage and short healing window

Otherwise i don't see why a heal should not try a bit to dps
I don't require a dps level of damage
Just a bit

Because of 2 rules :
ABC - Always be casting
Keep the overheal to the minimum

I'll often use fluid aura to knock back a mob that the group isn't attacking to cut down on damage coming in. Anyone else ever think of using it that way? That couple seconds of Bind really do help if an agro happy tank doesn't ruin my plans and interrupt it.

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Originally Posted by gehrtalert

I'll often use fluid aura to knock back a mob that the group isn't attacking to cut down on damage coming in. Anyone else ever think of using it that way? That couple seconds of Bind really do help if an agro happy tank doesn't ruin my plans and interrupt it.

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I do
Fluid aura + sleep
And it's a breeze

Extremely useful at low level when you don't have aoe DPS or squishy tank

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

During ARR yes it was true
At HW it's less true

The upgrade of the healing toolkit and power only require 10% (20% on squishy tank) of your capabilities to keep a group alive
Savage content will require more attention due to high damage and short healing window

Otherwise i don't see why a heal should not try a bit to dps
I don't require a dps level of damage
Just a bit

Because of 2 rules :
ABC - Always be casting
Keep the overheal to the minimum

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I'm not really talking about savage, it's kind of a given that people should be playing at 100% on savage and ex content and that not dpsing isn't playing at 100% for healers.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

I'm not really talking about savage, it's kind of a given that people should be playing at 100% on savage and ex content and that not dpsing isn't playing at 100% for healers.

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if you are talking about dungeons then only healing involves 90% idling/overhealing anyway because the barrier to entry is so low. I honestly don't care about this subject, because I don't care what other party members are doing unless they are getting me killed (and even then, that somehow makes it more fun). The point is though, you SHOULD be DPSing while healing if the content permits it, as I said before: a healers job is to do whatever is most relevant at the time, that means that you plan your next GCD around your party's health, and if they don't need a heal, throw out a DPS spell (doesn't even need to be in cleric stance if you struggle with stance dancing). I feel like the gap of expectation is whether cleric stance should be used rather than if DPS spells should be used, because DPSing as a healer should be normal, just as using non tanking combos should be normal for a tank if they have a good amount of aggro.

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

A raid healer will most of the time make dps sweat because of numbers and tank tighten their pant with life drop to the extreme XD

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A raid healer is a whole different subject that isn't even considered when making this argument. When raiding, you typically have a main healer and off-healer. The main healer will maintain heals 100% of the time and will never ever DPS unless there is a phase which allows for it (no damage going out, DPS check push), an off healer gauges through practice when and when not they are able to DPS and on less intensive/overgeared fights, they may find that they are in cleric stance for over 50% of the fight. This DPS output is worked out through strategy and group practice, whereas dungeons and trials work as outlined above, where the partys health dictates what skills you use at any given time (a fact not relegated to pro-healers, but also should apply to standard healers as well)

The line about savage was here to state that savage require an other mindset with higher optimisation

Like lambda said
In donjon content most of the time you can dps because combat are not intense and mecanic are almost inexistant

And as said even without cleric you can dps
A lazy healer will have 0 dps (maybe more if whm with non miss assize)
An unsure healer should have more or less 250+ dps because he doesn't use cleric
A classic healer will have 800+ with a balanced gameplay

A raid healer will most of the time make dps sweat because of numbers and tank tighten their pant with life drop to the extrême XD
(Yolodiction at the last second while in cleric yay !)

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Snippity snap.

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I agree with you there, I personally almost always dpsed while healing because I get bored standing around and doing nothing, and you should DPS instead of standing around

Still, I'm against forcing people to play a certain way on dungeon content, some people are uncomfortable with dpsing using cleric and you shouldn't force people to do so

However, I do like dungeons like the vault that force bad players to evolve. I was alright at healing but I wasn't using all my skills at the time, and that had to change during the dungeon.

Well that and I had a crappy computer that would lagg during Sir Cherry Burp's aoes to the point I die, so I couldn't finish the dungeon as a healer. It's amazing how much harder a bad computer makes the game.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Still, I'm against forcing people to play a certain way on dungeon content, some people are uncomfortable with dpsing using cleric and you shouldn't force people to do so

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I think your are equating something no one here is saying. We're not saying Healers should always DPS and maximize their rotations in dungeon content.
We're saying PLEASE DPS A LITTLE BIT.
A Healer DPSing makes the difference between a wipe or running out of TP on large pulls.

EG:
My friend and I were running Neverreap/Fractal for the TTCs yesterday.
As a NIN, I would run out of TP before the second full pull died if the Healer was standing around with his thumb up his butt. It adds about 2-3 minutes to that stupid pull having to single target 5 mobs 0TP. Multiply that by 6 pulls and it makes the dungeon take 50% longer.
And I would have around 300-400 TP left if he was in Cleric Stance.

On Fractal, the pull from the first boss to as far as you can go is literally a WIPE if the Healer doesn't DPS. When it shouldn't be.

Healers who ONLY heal are literally a problem. They can, and DO cause WIPES. If ANY other class caused a wipe it would be unacceptable, I don't understand the "it's ok cuz healers."
If you can't Heal and DPS, either learn, or don't bother to play the class. Learn a class you can do.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Still, I'm against forcing people to play a certain way on dungeon content, some people are uncomfortable with dpsing using cleric and you shouldn't force people to do so

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While I appreciate you agreeing, I still feel like you are missing my point, as FunkyBunch pointed out. To quote myself, I mentioned specifically separating the arguement away from the need for cleric stance:

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a healers job is to do whatever is most relevant at the time, that means that you plan your next GCD around your party's health, and if they don't need a heal, throw out a DPS spell (doesn't even need to be in cleric stance if you struggle with stance dancing)...

...I feel like the gap of expectation is whether cleric stance should be used rather than if DPS spells should be used, because DPSing as a healer should be normal, just as using non tanking combos should be normal for a tank if they have a good amount of aggro.

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What I mean here is that the expectation to throw out a few DPS spells during downtime is valid, and not doing so makes you a bad healer and in extreme examples causes problems for the party. This is no different to a BLM casting only blizzard, or me only doing a 1, 2, 3 combo on WAR (missing maim and storms eye entirely), it is bad practice and slows runs down drastically, not because of skill, but because of laziness (generalizing slightly, but it does not take skill to use a stone spell when the tank is at full health, especially if the tank knows what they are doing).

Nobody is asking dungeon healers to stance dance, as much as we shouldn't expect dungeon tanks to stance dance (especially PLD), but we should expect players to use their full standard rotations and for healers to use the DPS skills that they have (at least in some capacity if they are unsure) even at a casual endgame level.

Example: for SCH you can adlo the tank, put up 3 dots, shadowflare, and broil forever in a dungeon, your fairy will do most of the work, and aetherflow and occasional adlos will do the rest (I suck at healing and still manage to do this easily, an even better healer would stance dance while doing this). WHM and AST have regen spells that achieve a similar scenario

Saying it's a healers only job to keep everyone alive is like saying it's the tanks job to tank only the mobs that will kill a dps. Or a dps only really has to try if there's a dps check, no dps check? "Well, he is doing some dps" "but he's only using venomous bite" "it's something, who are you to judge".

Yoshi-P commented on this a bit.

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For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

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So according to Yoshi-P, all of the game is designed to be beaten without a Healer having to DPS, but the option is there for people that do want to utilize it. If you're queueing for Duty Finder and your Healer is keeping everyone alive, that should be equal to a Tank consistently keeping enmity the entire run, or a DPS doing consistent damage throughout the run.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Saying it's a healers only job to keep everyone alive is like saying it's the tanks job to tank only the mobs that will kill a dps. Or a dps only really has to try if there's a dps check, no dps check? "Well, he is doing some dps" "but he's only using venomous bite" "it's something, who are you to judge".

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No, it's the tank's job to keep emnity on all mobs, your example is bad. Besides, if you have a problem with someone else's play style and it's not causing anyone to wipe then YOU can leave and eat the 30 minute penalty.

Besides, I'm not even concerned about the issue anymore, I'm worried about the lack of compassion to other players since all people seem to care about is "BUT MAH DEE PEE ES." It's just a game, a 30 minute run vs a 20 minute run won't kill you.

Also refer to this thread if you think all healers should DPS and heal:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...xpert-Roulette

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

I'm worried about the lack of compassion to other players since all people seem to care about is "BUT MAH DEE PEE ES." It's just a game, a 30 minute run vs a 20 minute run won't kill you.

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I agree about the lack of compassion bit.

Like, the current pressure put on Healers who aren't DPSing to DPS and not accepting no for answer is honestly quite selfish. I don't mind someone asking, but to have this mandatory expectation of someone outside of runs you create via Party Finder, or your Raid group, or Savage content to DPS as Healer to merely make a run 5 minutes faster when that person does not want to should not be happening, especially when the game is designed for you be able to complete without it.

I've seen a piece of logic thrown around a bit on the internet about Healer DPS that I have a problem with as well. "But you CAN do it, therefore if you do not do it, you are a bad Healer. You should be doing everything in your ability as a team member, and if you do not, you are not good."

A bit of it is true, it doesn't hurt to sometimes go out of your way, but as a option when the situation presents itself, but let's apply that same mandatory optionless logic to DPS.

"If you're a MNK and are not using Blood Bath to heal yourself, you're a bad MNK."
"If you're a DRG and are not using Foresight when taking physical damage of any kind, including physical AoEs, you're a bad DRG."
"If you're a BLM and are not using Eye for an Eye on the Tank, you're a bad BLM."
"If you're a NIN and are not using Keen Flurry, you're a bad NIN."
"If you're a BRD and are not using Second Wind, you're a bad BRD."

That is why this line of thinking doesn't work. Regardless of how potent Healer DPS is, it would be a double standard to expect this and not expect all of the things I mentioned because you can do them when the opportunity presents itself.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

No, it's the tank's job to keep emnity on all mobs, your example is bad. Besides, if you have a problem with someone else's play style and it's not causing anyone to wipe then YOU can leave and eat the 30 minute penalty.

Besides, I'm not even concerned about the issue anymore, I'm worried about the lack of compassion to other players since all people seem to care about is "BUT MAH DEE PEE ES." It's just a game, a 30 minute run vs a 20 minute run won't kill you.

Also refer to this thread if you think all healers should DPS and heal:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...xpert-Roulette

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I said earlier there are times when healers not dpsing is fine. However it does bother me when its obvious someone isn't trying, like my lazy dps example, which you conveniently ignored. 30% of healers actions are dps. Use em. Stop defending the lazy.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Yoshi-P commented on this a bit.



So according to Yoshi-P, all of the game is designed to be beaten without a Healer having to DPS, but the option is there for people that do want to utilize it. If you're queueing for Duty Finder and your Healer is keeping everyone alive, that should be equal to a Tank consistently keeping enmity the entire run, or a DPS doing consistent damage throughout the run.

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Holy mother of out of context. They said that Savage content is designed around not needing Healer DPS because it would be over-tuned. There's no Savage raid group in the game that at least one healer isn't DPSing (the SCH).

Further, they even changed the Hall of the Novice text (originally it said nothing about DPSing) to incorporate text regarding damaging the enemies when no one needs healing. Why would they do that? Because too many healers were bad.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

A bit of it is true, it doesn't hurt to sometimes go out of your way, but as a option when the situation presents itself, but let's apply that same mandatory optionless logic to DPS.

"If you're a MNK and are not using Blood Bath to heal yourself, you're a bad MNK."
"If you're a DRG and are not using Foresight when taking physical damage of any kind, including physical AoEs, you're a bad DRG."
"If you're a BLM and are not using Eye for an Eye on the Tank, you're a bad BLM."
"If you're a NIN and are not using Keen Flurry, you're a bad NIN."
"If you're a BRD and are not using Second Wind, you're a bad BRD."

That is why this line of thinking doesn't work. Regardless of how potent Healer DPS is, it would be a double standard to expect this and not expect all of the things I mentioned because you can do them when the opportunity presents itself.

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OMFG, you are totally, AGAIN 100% missing the point. We are NOT TALKING ABOUT OPTIMAL DPS HERE. We're saying DO JUST A LITTLE BIT PRETTY PLEASE.
Seriously, we are not talking about 100% perfect stance dancing rotations and using all appropriate buffs and damage at opportune times. We're just saying don't stand there with your thumb up your butt at all times.
That's it. Don't stand around with your thumb up your butt. Again, all we're asking is: Don't stand there with your thumb up your butt.

I don't give two hoots about if you've used Swiftcast Shadowflare and got all your DOTs up and Aetherflow-Bane'd.
I'm just saying, please just throw out a few BIO's after you Adlo at the beginning of the fight (preferably the BIO's are in cleric stance).

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

Holy mother of out of context. They said that Savage content is designed around not needing Healer DPS because it would be over-tuned. There's no Savage raid group in the game that at least one healer isn't DPSing (the SCH).

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Seems you took what I said out of context, actually. I am aware Savage groups use DPS as Healer, I mean it's the hardest content of the game. However, the game is still designed at the end of the day to complete without it as stated by Yoshi-P himself. You can't spin it any other way.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

OMFG, you are totally, AGAIN 100% missing the point. We are NOT TALKING ABOUT OPTIMAL DPS HERE. We're saying DO JUST A LITTLE BIT PRETTY PLEASE.
Seriously, we are not talking about 100% perfect stance dancing rotations and using all appropriate buffs and damage at opportune times. We're just saying don't stand there with your thumb up your butt at all times.
That's it. Don't stand around with your thumb up your butt. Again, all we're asking is: Don't stand there with your thumb up your butt.

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No, I actually understand the point quite well. I'm referring to DPS period, never once did I refer to hardcore DPS. It is not mandatory to utilize DPS as a Healer in a run, for you to mandate that on someone else, I hope you are also doing all you can as a party member by using all of your defensive options as a DPS as stated in my previous post, if not then you are having a "thumb up" somewhere not assisting the Healer by mitigating damage as DPS when it is possible to do so.

That's the mentality I have an issue with. If you want someone to do something outside their initial role, understand that is your personal want, and if the other person decides they do not want to do it, respect that and do not shame them.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

"If you're a MNK and are not using Blood Bath to heal yourself, you're a bad MNK."
"If you're a DRG and are not using Foresight when taking physical damage of any kind, including physical AoEs, you're a bad DRG."
"If you're a BLM and are not using Eye for an Eye on the Tank, you're a bad BLM."
"If you're a NIN and are not using Keen Flurry, you're a bad NIN."
"If you're a BRD and are not using Second Wind, you're a bad BRD."

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If you're a BLM and are not using Apoc on the tank, you're a bad BLM.

If you're a NIN and are not using Shadewalker or Goad when needed, you're a bad NIN.

If you're a Bard and are not using Foe Requiem, you're a bad Bard.

I just gave 3 examples that are much closer to the healer DPS analogy than the examples you gave. Want me to go on?

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Seems you took what I said out of context, actually. I am aware Savage groups use DPS as Healer, I mean it's the hardest content of the game. However, the game is still designed at the end of the day to complete without it as stated by Yoshi-P himself. You can't spin it any other way.

No, I actually understand the point quite well. I'm referring to DPS period, never once did I refer to hardcore DPS. It is not mandatory to utilize DPS as a Healer in a run, for you to mandate that on someone else, I hope you are also doing all you can as a party member by using all of your defensive options as a DPS as stated in my previous post, if not then you are having a "thumb up" somewhere not assisting the Healer by mitigating damage as DPS when it is possible to do so.

That's the mentality I have an issue with. If you want someone to do something outside their initial role, understand that is your personal want, and if the other person decides they do not want to do it, respect that and do not shame them.

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I do all I can at all times, but again somehow you think that ANY DPS AT ALL as a healer is equivalent to maximizing every other class ever.
As a SCH, I consistently get the the top or near the top DPS wise along with keeping everyone alive, now that I finally unlocked Stoneskin it's even easier. As a BLM, I get the top DPS and use Apoc and Virus. As a NIN I get near the top DPS and use Shadewalker on the Tank so they can stay in DPS stance longer and Goad on any of my TPless friends and Trick Attack whenever it's off cooldown.
I also heal myself whenever it's off cooldown and I need a bit of healing.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

That's the mentality I have an issue with. If you want someone to do something outside their initial role, understand that is your personal want, and if the other person decides they do not want to do it, respect that and do not shame them.

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It's not outside their initial role. FFS, the Hall of the Novice bloody tells you to DPS when no one needs healing. They even changed the text to add that.
It's the I have a Green Icon so I can stand around doing jack squat 90% of the time and be lazy is the attitude I have a problem with.

If they can't even do what the Hall of the Novice says, (DPS when no one needs Healing) they should either learn a class they can play properly, or go play another game.

It's pretty sad, when a level 60 BLM/NIN decides to try out SCH and consistently is better than most other healers despite having zero experience.
I've had players get mad at me because they're DPS and I out DPS them.

I was apparently top 4 DPs throughout a weeping city run this morning, as white mage. According to the parse, I also had 77% overheal (though I'm pretty shitty with estimating how much healing I need in that raid). We had 3 scholars who refused to do any damage. Pathetic. Now I know to never queue up as Ast in there again. People are gonna be too terrible for my cards to be worth more than Assize/fluid aura

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

I said earlier there are times when healers not dpsing is fine. However it does bother me when its obvious someone isn't trying, like my lazy dps example, which you conveniently ignored. 30% of healers actions are dps. Use em. Stop defending the lazy.

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It's already been said before, but if healers didn't have damaging skills what about quests? Would we just heal the enemy to death?

My issue isn't about if you SHOULD DPS as a healer, of course you should DPS, standing around doing nothing during combat is could reproductive.

My issue is with the people who say you HAVE to DPS. If I'm in a new duty and I'm uncomfortable with the content and the damage patterns I might opt out of dpsing until I get the gist of it.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

It's already been said before, but if healers didn't have damaging skills what about quests? Would we just heal the enemy to death?

My issue isn't about if you SHOULD DPS as a healer, of course you should DPS, standing around doing nothing during combat is could reproductive.

My issue is with the people who say you HAVE to DPS. If I'm in a new duty and I'm uncomfortable with the content and the damage patterns I might opt out of dpsing until I get the gist of it.

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There's no excuse for not throwing out a DOT at the beginning of a pull no matter what the dungeon is. There is no pull where the Tank should die in less than three GCD's. Which is the amount of time it takes to throw out 2 DOTs, Switch out of Cleric and pop a Lustrate if necessary. There's never not a time you can't do that.
If they're being super squishy and you're having a tough time keeping them alive, that's the only time it's really acceptable to not DPS, but that's not what we're talking about. If you're having a hard time keeping a Tank alive, you're always casting. We're just talking about the times when the Healers are literally doing nothing, and that's what's not okay.

You are all missing the point. We're not talking about the times that Healing is super tough. We're not talking about maximizing your DPS potential. We're talking about all the times you're not casting anything and standing there doing nothing.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

It's already been said before, but if healers didn't have damaging skills what about quests? Would we just heal the enemy to death?

My issue isn't about if you SHOULD DPS as a healer, of course you should DPS, standing around doing nothing during combat is could reproductive.

My issue is with the people who say you HAVE to DPS. If I'm in a new duty and I'm uncomfortable with the content and the damage patterns I might opt out of dpsing until I get the gist of it.

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Ok. So basically it is expected of a healer. Thank you. Stop arguing with people. I understand comfort levels. Everyone does. But if you're comfortable dpsing you are going to dps regardless of how familiar you are with a fight. As you get more familiar you do more dps, like with every other class.

I always Dps even when the tank is a DRK that's why I love SCH.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

I was apparently top 4 DPs throughout a weeping city run this morning, as white mage. According to the parse, I also had 77% overheal (though I'm pretty shitty with estimating how much healing I need in that raid). We had 3 scholars who refused to do any damage. Pathetic. Now I know to never queue up as Ast in there again. People are gonna be too terrible for my cards to be worth more than Assize/fluid aura

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Just give yourself all the Balance and Arrow cards. xD

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

My issue is with the people who say you HAVE to DPS. If I'm in a new duty and I'm uncomfortable with the content and the damage patterns I might opt out of dpsing until I get the gist of it.

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I would think thats completely fine, rather probably a good number of healers do that too.

We also have to remember not all healers work the same in terms of skill sets during fights, so what pple say you wanna take witha slight grain of salt depending on what main healer they are coming from and then adjust it to your main healer class. (Like for me i found Sch easy output to dps and heal, Whm was smack in the middle, and Ast was a little bit more busy with their 'support' cards if they didnt forget about it)

You don't need to deal damage as a healer, being a player that is both comfortable and able to do it while sustaining your party with heals and mitigations is something that add you as a player and fasten up duties but should never be needed if your party's DPS are doing good. Feel free to Cleric when you're comfortable and for progression its something that should always be coordinated not only with your your co-healer bu your party as well so they know when heals are coming and when they're not.

For casual content, feel free to deal damage or not. You're not required to but your stance dance can make a difference between a 25 minutes dungeon and a 10 minutes one. Basically any discution about healer dps falls under these choices, like many f us pointed out already.

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Originally Posted by CBellz

If you're a BLM and are not using Apoc on the tank, you're a bad BLM.

If you're a NIN and are not using Shadewalker or Goad when needed, you're a bad NIN.

If you're a Bard and are not using Foe Requiem, you're a bad Bard.

I just gave 3 examples that are much closer to the healer DPS analogy than the examples you gave. Want me to go on?

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Actually, my example is more accurate because Goad and Apoc are two abilities that cannot be used on oneself and thus designed to be used on someone else as part of your kit.

The examples I have given directly have you yourself focus on your own damage, something that isn't part of your role as DPS and are cross-abilities that can either heal you or mitigate damage, or increase the healer's healing ability.

A Bard using Second Wind can save the healer from having to heal and let them DPS a few seconds longer, using Keen Flurry can mitigate around 15-20% damage at times and thus save the Healer MP, but you don't see people using it much in dungeons do you?

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

I do all I can at all times, but again somehow you think that ANY DPS AT ALL as a healer is equivalent to maximizing every other class ever.
As a SCH, I consistently get the the top or near the top DPS wise along with keeping everyone alive, now that I finally unlocked Stoneskin it's even easier. As a BLM, I get the top DPS and use Apoc and Virus. As a NIN I get near the top DPS and use Shadewalker on the Tank so they can stay in DPS stance longer and Goad on any of my TPless friends and Trick Attack whenever it's off cooldown.
I also heal myself whenever it's off cooldown and I need a bit of healing.

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Well, is it not attempting to maximize to focus on a role outside the intended main role in a party? You are technically trying to strive for more damage and swapping between a stance that makes your healing very weak for the sole purpose of making a dungeon go faster. That does sound like striving to maximize all what you are capable of.

For the second part, refer to my previous reply to the person I quoted above yours.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

It's not outside their initial role.

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Healing is their role, that's why they are referred to as Healer, anything else is a bonus. When the game starts being designed around Healer DPS, that is when it becomes their mandatory role to DPS and not an optional choice to help defeat a Savage run, or to speed along a Dungeon run.

https://i.imgur.com/NawXEHz.png

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FFS, the Hall of the Novice bloody tells you to DPS when no one needs healing. They even changed the text to add that.

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Actually, they don't tell you to DPS at all. They state that it might be possible to also DPS at times if you have the time for it.

https://i.imgur.com/ziZgMXr.png

They also go on about focusing on healing afterwards, twice.

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It's the I have a Green Icon so I can stand around doing jack squat 90% of the time and be lazy is the attitude I have a problem with.

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Do you realize that some people might not actually be as skilled as you are and cannot DPS and heal due to coordination issues? Or being inexperienced? Or that some people would rather focus on keeping the party alive then speeding up a dungeon by however percent to swap into Cleric Stance? Not everyone can handle this, and to some people they aren't merely "standing around", they are just as engaged in the fight as you are, they just don't have the same skill level.

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If they can't even do what the Hall of the Novice says, (DPS when no one needs Healing) they should either learn a class they can play properly, or go play another game.

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Disgusting behavior. It's examples like this of what I have an issue with. Mandating someone do something their way, or what they personally perceive as mandatory or competent, and if that person doesn't live up to their expectations, go play another game.

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It's pretty sad, when a level 60 BLM/NIN decides to try out SCH and consistently is better than most other healers despite having zero experience.
I've had players get mad at me because they're DPS and I out DPS them.

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Sounds like you're pretty proud of yourself here. Congratulations on being able to DPS on Scholar, the easiest of the jobs to Stance Dance with, after playing two DPS jobs to level 60.

Clearly those healers who cannot DPS anywhere close to you are bad at healing when they keep everyone alive throughout the run.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Sounds like you're pretty proud of yourself here. Congratulations on being able to DPS on Scholar, the easiest of the jobs to Stance Dance with, after playing two DPS jobs to level 60.

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I agree with your whole post, maybe not on the aggressiveness but your points are solid, and your mention about SCH is what made me quit the job. Too many SCHs get away with just cleric stancing forever.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

snip

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As a tank: is it ok for me to skip maim and storms eye as a WAR? is it ok for me to never goring blade or royal authority anything on PLD? That is closer in line because tank damage isn't part of fights either, and you know, its not my job to dps, only keep hate with my enmity combo.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Do you realize that some people might not actually be as skilled as you are and cannot DPS and heal due to coordination issues? Or being inexperienced? Or that some people would rather focus on keeping the party alive then speeding up a dungeon by however percent to swap into Cleric Stance? Not everyone can handle this, and to some people they aren't merely "standing around", they are just as engaged in the fight as you are, they just don't have the same skill level.

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Cleric stance isn't mentioned, you can throw out dots (even if its just dots) without cleric stance in between cures, in dungeon runs there is plenty of downtime, enough time to throw out a dot or two without any hardship at all. Yes cleric stance is something that is a bonus , and skilled healers will definately stance dance and show off their pro skills, an average to amateur healer can throw out their basic dots and keep their safety net of extra healing as needed without an issue.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Cleric stance isn't mentioned, you can throw out dots (even if its just dots) without cleric stance in between cures, in dungeon runs there is plenty of downtime, enough time to throw out a dot or two without any hardship at all. Yes cleric stance is something that is a bonus , and skilled healers will definately stance dance and show off their pro skills, an average to amateur healer can throw out their basic dots and keep their safety net of extra healing as needed without an issue.

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Let's stop with this ok? Everyone knows that after you start getting MND-only gear trying to DPS without CS is absolutely USELESS. If you're going to dps, do it while in CS, or just save your time buffing or doing another thing. This is not the first time I see people bringing this type of misinformation in the thread and it's really annoying.

And yes, it's ok in my point of view to not use Maim or DPS combos while tanking, as long as you are keeping hate/mitigating. Is it desirable? Absolutely not, but if I see someone doing it in DF I'd just sigh and carry on with the run and complain later to my friends.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

I agree with your whole post, maybe not on the aggressiveness but your points are solid, and your mention about SCH is what made me quit the job. Too many SCHs get away with just cleric stancing forever.

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What do you mean, "get away with?" If a SCH can keep the party alive, get the run done, all while being in Cleric Stance for well over half the run, what are they getting away with? Being good at their job?