I am disappointed with Deep Dungeon

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

Floor 50 boss HP Was down 50% HP and boom -> it did an attack party got wiped.

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Chances are people got hit by In Health too many times. Each hit lights up the AVERE one letter at a time, which boosts the damage dealt by Black Honeymoon (all five letters lit up = death). Final boss has no DPS race. She just requires you to pay attention.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Not without a longer time limit, it isn't, and certainly not by every class.

This would be true for literally every duty. There's a reason why they aren't all made like that (good reason too, not Just Because)

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You just hgave to tweak the rolls a bit and make sure to avoid as much dmg as possible. Im willing to bet out of solo-ers not many still use food, and medicine to compensate.

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Chances are people got hit by In Health too many times. Each hit lights up the AVERE one letter at a time, which boosts the damage dealt by Black Honeymoon (all five letters lit up = death). Final boss has no DPS race. She just requires you to pay attention.

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Ranged that don't know what to expect will get hit by it, because the safe zone is way too small and often out of reach. It isn't really always a matter of "just paying attention"

It wouldn't be a big deal if this were like a normal dungeon and you could just retry the boss after figuring out what NOT to do, but negating your entire 41-49 run due to one wipe is going to be quite the kick in the teeth to some.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

It wouldn't be a big deal if this were like a normal dungeon and you could just retry the boss after figuring out what NOT to do, but negating your entire 41-49 run due to one wipe is going to be quite the kick in the teeth to some.

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Especially when said run takes almost the entire hour.

A forum that has no idea what a Roguelike games.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike

those who are talking of difficulty have no fucking idea what they are talking, the idea of these games is that while lower floors becomes more difficult, if Palace of the dead will have about 200 floors, the floors we have available are easy.

Another thing that people forget is this "Since the palace can be done with any party set up" so ask difficulty to something that has to adapt to all set ups is stupid, the difficulty of savage(ex) modes are created based on the trinity of tanking, dps, healer. The real problem Palace of The Dead is the amount of time consuming, but it can be applied to all the game content If you do Savage Alexander for 3 hours you are going to get tired, if you do for 3 hours Fates, you get tired same for ALL.

PD: An Sorry, my English is really bad XD

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Ranged that don't know what to expect will get hit by it, because the safe zone is way too small and often out of reach. It isn't really always a matter of "just paying attention"

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It's a massive AoE with plenty of time to look around. If the first thing a ranged player does is look around for a safe zone and then notice too late (and try to make it within the safe zone), then it's fine. They at least tried, which means they will (or should) be prepared for the next one (staying closer, popping Sprint if need be). The only time it starts getting tricky is when the "adds" AoE over Edda's safe zone, or if everyone is hit by Cold Feet.

If a ranged player gets hit all the time and shows no sign of trying to avoid it, then you have a party member expecting you to carry them.

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Originally Posted by Akira_Tenshi

When did I say it was a fact? I simply shared my opinion which is as valid as anyone else's. The topic of this thread is disappointed with palace of the dead and your moaning someone doesn't like it.

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"It's boring", "this is crap". These are stated as facts. You did this.
"I find it boring", "I think it's crap". These are expressed as opinions. You didn't do this.

Learning the difference is key to be able to speak proper english.

By the way, you can be disappointed by something while still be able to explain why.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

"It's boring", "this is crap". These are stated as facts. You did this.
"I find it boring", "I think it's crap". These are expressed as opinions. You didn't do this.

Learning the difference is key to be able to speak proper english.

By the way, you can be disappointed by something while still be able to explain why.

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http://m.memegen.com/pyjmlh.jpg

So what I understand is it needs to be final fantasy Zelda?

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Originally Posted by Pheryx

So what I understand is it needs to be final fantasy Zelda?

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^Final Diablo XIV.

If it gave ilv400 weapons, people would be happy about it.

Some of you care too much about digital items and forget about the fun/challenge.


Anyways, it's just floor 1-50, it's supposed to be casual content at this point. It won't be considered a true challenge until floor 200 is released IMO.

Deep Dungeon looks good so far for now, and I'm hyped for the 51+ floors!

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Not without a longer time limit, it isn't, and certainly not by every class.
[citation needed]

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Letter from the Producer LIVE at E3, June 15th, from Yoshi-P himself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_6i5ZBLR9U

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

If it gave ilv400 weapons, people would be happy about it.

Some of you care too much about digital items and forget about the fun/challenge.


Anyways, it's just floor 1-50, it's supposed to be casual content at this point. It won't be considered a true challenge until floor 200 is released IMO.

Deep Dungeon looks good so far for now, and I'm hyped for the 51+ floors!

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If it gave an ilv400 weapon, people will complain its better stuff than whats available in Savage and it will kill raiding XD

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Letter from the Producer LIVE at E3, June 15th, from Yoshi-P himself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_6i5ZBLR9U

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To emphasise TankHunter's point, within the first 5 minutes of the video Yoshi-P says its a content to be casually accessed. So not sure where the expectation that this was supposed to be a gruel and challenging content for end gamers.

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Originally Posted by Anad

If it gave an ilv400 weapon, people will complain its better stuff than whats available in Savage and it will kill raiding XD

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Not to mention crafters who will complain that its better stuff than whats available with crafts and it will kill crafts xD

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Originally Posted by Remus

Why go through that for a 235 when i can just kill Nidhogg EX? Also queues are always fast on release give it time.

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Because in EX party it's, most of the time (and i'm not saying all the time)
"shit a new player ! he's going to ruin my experience" /leave
"shit a wipe ! it's going to ruin my experience" /leave

At least in Deep dungeon, you can try to solo it, meaning you don't depend on unpleaseant players

My problem with PotD is that while the shallow perception is that it's something different, it really isn't. It falls into the exact same mold all their side-content has.

So, how is PotD no different from stuff like Verminion, Diadem, TT, etc.? People here will constantly complain about content longevity and how none of the content is designed to truly last. PotD doesn't break that mold.

How exactly is PotD going to last? Once people farm it enough to get the mount, minions, and the weapons they want, what's going to keep enough people coming back to sustain it?

The materia V? You get materia V much faster from Diadem and nobodies does Diadem anymore.

The tomestones? You get tomestones much faster from other means. As we've seen since the dawn of this game, whenever tomestones are relevant, people will find the most efficient way to farm them and flock to that.

The exp? Again, you get exp much faster from other means. For those that are focused on leveling, they will flock to more efficient methods. And, leveling is a finite pursuit. You eventually reach the level cap.

Solo queue-able? Diadem is solo queue-able. Nobody does.

At the end of the day, the question is if the gameplay is fun enough for enough people that they can sustain it despite the lack of any other real content incentive. I don't think it is.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Deep Dungeon looks good so far for now, and I'm hyped for the 51+ floors!

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No, now you have to farm first 50 floors for 3 months before you can get your 51+ floor.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Solo queue-able? Diadem is solo queue-able. Nobody does.

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Is it? People meant that you can do the content solo, not put yourself into the waiting queue. Can I start doing diadem solo (gathering for example) without waiting for or making a group? That would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

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PotD at this point is like a pre-PVP Season. The first 50 floors are the easy ones just to show how the system works.

When SE releases til 200 floor, it's supposed to be really hard to reach 200, and they're going to put a ranking just like PVP so people who reaches a certain floor will rank up (Similar to Diablo?) with a website showing who went farther than the rest.

Can't really complain about rewards and stuff yet since it's an incomplete content still.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Solo queue-able? Diadem is solo queue-able. Nobody does.

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Nobody does because nobody can.
You need 7 other players if you queue in Ishgard or minimum 1 other player if you queue in a FC workshop.

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The materia V? You get materia V much faster from Diadem and nobodies does Diadem anymore.

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You get materia V faster from the 24 man raid than from Diadem (because of queue time)

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Originally Posted by Brian_

sinp

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Well first difference is that you start from Lv1, and quickly ramp up to Lv60 with all the skills and abilities to try out the class. This might be irrelevant to people with max level all classes, but the player base is NOT comprised of them. The majority will have a class or two that they never levelled, in my case I have put Healer classes into the back log out of laziness and maybe since am not a good healer to begin with. PotD gave me the chance to quickly try AST without going through many hours of levelling, and found it an interesting class, albeit demanding.

Second difference, there is no pressure what so ever to do it, as its not part of the gear tread mill. Another anecdotal example, I went in for 3 hours of Weeping City farming but never got my item, and after all the wipes and frustration I went to PotD solo with DRK just to relax and challenge my self a bit. For me, that was a reward within it self, seeing how long I can go all by myself. What I found is now am reading every single detail of abilities to try and figure what tactics I can use to safely and quickly do the floors.

Ultimately, there is not a single content that provides the above things for me in the current game outside PotD. For that I think it was a success, a huge contrast to what Diadem ended up being.

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Originally Posted by Celef

Not to mention crafters who will complain that its better stuff than whats available with crafts and it will kill crafting.

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Crafters first have to have recipes to make high level weapons in the first place before crafting could potentially be killed by it. :-p

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

Is it? People meant that you can do the content solo, not put yourself into the waiting queue. Can I start doing diadem solo (gathering for example) without waiting for or making a group? That would be nice.

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You can queue as a partial party from a FC workshop. I don't know if the game lets you go in by yourself though. Even if the game lets you, it's a terrible idea because you're unlikely to be able to attune solo. Going in as a duo definitely works just fine though.

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Originally Posted by aesteval

You can queue as a partial party from a FC workshop. I don't know if the game lets you go in by yourself though. Even if the game lets you, it's a terrible idea because you're unlikely to be able to attune solo. Going in as a duo definitely works just fine though.

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I think you need a minimum of two people for Diadem.

I don't know if they make content to cater to the casual population, or if the game is just limited and couldn't improve further. But I'm shocked by the lack of creativity for this content.

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Originally Posted by Melch

I don't know if they make content to cater to the casual population, or if the game is just limited and couldn't improve further. But I'm shocked by the lack of creativity for this content.

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WTF?
Another MMO has a Roguelike in the same game?

I like the content, feels just like leveling in dungeons minus all the gear clutter but plus all the potsherd brown chest goodness on floors 41-50. Gaining real xp after clearing every tenth floor is nice too, went from 55-57 just doing 1-50 twice and 1-20 once (it was a grind, think all those floors took about 4 and a half hours total...but that's great cause I only log on like 1-2 hours lately to do savage). Nice alternative to leveling my NIN.

This content will be much more bothersome for those who are inept, I mean my NIN started out at 52 and 60 NINs I group with compliment my DPS output, that's rare in this game. I at times find myself stunned when I'm in there and the tank didn't even know they have overpower and spamming flash as a warrior. I guess for some people the "instant level 60 practice" scheme is more demanding.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

WTF?
Another MMO has a Roguelike in the same game?

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PotD was inspired mostly by Nyzul Isle from FFXI, and Nyzul had a lot more variety to it than this does. I really like PotD as a foundation to build on, but it really does need a fair bit of building upon it to make it a fully fleshed out piece of content.

The great thing about it though is that, since it's procedurally generated content, the devs can simply add new features to the map generator whenever they feel like and the PotD can gradually expand like that. They don't need to do big content releases for it. A few small changes over time would actually have quite a dramatic effect on the variety available on all existing floors.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

PotD was inspired mostly by Nyzul Isle from FFXI, and Nyzul had a lot more variety to it than this does. I really like PotD as a foundation to build on, but it really does need a fair bit of building upon it to make it a fully fleshed out piece of content.

The great thing about it though is that, since it's procedurally generated content, the devs can simply add new features to the map generator whenever they feel like and the PotD can gradually expand like that. They don't need to do big content releases for it. A few small changes over time would actually have quite a dramatic effect on the variety available on all existing floors.

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Isle Nyzul looks more like a Dungeon Crawler to Wizardry style that l have here. In any case for the rest I copy my own message

"the idea of these games is that while lower floors becomes more difficult, if Palace of the dead will have about 200 floors, the floors we have available are easy."

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Originally Posted by Pheryx

So what I understand is it needs to be final fantasy Zelda?

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It needs to be something more than it currently is. In my opinion.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

saying you didnt like it because is not what you expected is not fine as you knew what to expect, so what is the real reason why you didnt like it ..

You cant answer ? or the question is too hard

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I've explained multiple times why I don't like it regardless of my expectations. I'm not going to repeat myself again if you can't be bothered to read the thread.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

Isle Nyzul looks more like a Dungeon Crawler to Wizardry style that l have here. In any case for the rest I copy my own message

"the idea of these games is that while lower floors becomes more difficult, if Palace of the dead will have about 200 floors, the floors we have available are easy."

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I don't see how content changing in the future has much relevance to the current implementation of it nor how that has relevance to the criticism of how it is currently. Moreover, your previous post linking what a roguelike is... We know what it is. It's just FFXI did this type of content better 10 years ago. It's sad to see that after a decade has passed, we ended up getting something nowhere near as good as Nyzul.

Even if it's not a particularly speedy way to level up altjobs (since 21+ stages can sometimes take more time than an average dungeon run), I'll definitely take it over another goddamn run of Dzemael Borehold

I'm disappointed in it too. I didn't really go in expecting anything much, because I try to keep an open mind. But this was just ... eh.

Killing the same mobs over and over again in boring, samey environments just doesn't appeal to me. Particularly when the dev's patented quadruple-lock rng system prevents you from getting anything worthwhile for up to 3 hours of playtime! =D

Seriously. Layer 1 of rng - will a chest spawn?
Layer 2 - Will it explode?
Layer 3 - Will it be weapon or armour?
Layer 4 - Will it work or just flat-out say "nope, no upgrade for you"?

That last layer is just cruelty tbh. If your item is below the floor you are on, it should upgrade 100%. Full stop. Grinding for hours and getting nothing back is not fun when the content itself is lifeless.

So, it does tend to remind me of Diadem. You go around killing monsters, and every 10th floor you fight a stronger monster (a boss).


What happened after 30 floors, doing matched groups, is that the new strategy was to skip as many monsters as possible, killing only those necessary to open chests. The most popular strategy, just as it was in Diadem, was to ignore as much of the content as possible while still reaping the rewards you're seeking; this is because, just at it was in Diadem, it's the only way to cut through the immense tedium of the content.

Everything about PotD progression is obnoxious. Replaying the leveling process of your class isn't fun; it's just tedious. Finding silver chests isn't fun; this effectively gates your ability to progress via RNG rather than anything the player is doing. Why SE thought it'd be a good idea to have the amount of silver chests be RNG, and then on top of that have whether or not you get a + to your weapon/armor out of it also be RNG, is beyond me. This is just a slow and painful process.

But why is it a slow and painful process? What determines if a process is slow?

The rewards.

Going through 50 floors of this dungeon takes about 3 hours depending on RNG (love that RNG based progress). What you ultimately get out of it is a level 5 materia per run.

Beyond that, there's the weapon rewards. You get an i235 weapon, but acquiring it comes down to, again, RNG. You need to reach 30/30 on your aether gear, which means running the dungeon multiple times. So if you thought replaying the leveling process on fast forward was fun the first time, then you can look forward to resetting your data and doing it all over again, and most likely again after that, before you get your weapon.

The ability for SE to not understand the difference between fun and tedious has become astounding; this is further exemplified by talks of this dungeon receiving and additional 150 floors in the future. The idea of this dungeon being 300% longer makes me want to drive my head through my wall.

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Originally Posted by Karen_Cerfrumos

Even if it's not a particularly speedy way to level up altjobs (since 21+ stages can sometimes take more time than an average dungeon run), I'll definitely take it over another goddamn run of Dzemael Borehold

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I like the distraction away from dungeon leveling. Though my premade has floors 1-50 down to less than 2 hours. I get to pretend like I am a real ninja and run behind mobs to get chests while others are killing to pop passage lol. We been getting decent xp at that pace, it helps that a premade keeps their items though, three minos is the funniest thing to see on floor 49

I ran it about 4 time already. On my 3rd time I got 30/26 aetherpool rating .... on my 4th time it's still 30/26 due to each of them failing even though I was on the 40-49 floors.

While I do enjoy it, I'm not a fan of these rng-based failures.

There seems to be a trend of leaving prior to the floor 50 boss if they don't get any aetherpool upgrades. This has not happened to me yet, but I can understand not wanting to slog through floors 1-49

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

(..) it's supposed to be really hard to reach 200, (..)

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Thats not how a dungeoncrawler works.
While it is true, that the monsters getting stronger with each floor, it doesnt mean that it will become harder!
The keypoint in dungeoncrawler games is that you may run out of items or armor/weapons.
Its not the problem of rushing too fast through it, but could be because of RNG loot.
While on the first half of floors you will get higher chance of good gear (because you are not at max level where you need the best of the best stuff) the second half becomes harder because you will need to flee from some enemies until you get special items or you catch up with level. Speaking of level: It is common to outlevel enemies if you cant pass a floor, thats why you are motivated to run the same again and again because leveling up (or getting better gear, or to stock up items) to finally pass the floor...
Mostly it is designed, that you can power up on the fly without repeating the same floors 100 times.
I have seen bad dungeoncrawlers where you had to level in floor 1-10 for 200 times before you could survive floor 11-20...
While in good dungeoncrawlers you can go through floor 1-10 getting more or less usefull items/gear and with use of them you can pass floor 11-20, depending how lucky you are with RNG loot, you can reach the last level, for those who are unlucky, there are checkpoints where they can save the items and stock up to prepare for the next floors... still, there are dungeoncrawlers i liked most who had a very good balancing where you just had one life and dead means DEAD.

Just my opinion, but currently it is not a dungeon crawler (compared with wizardry)


To finish my posting: I like what was said here:

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Originally Posted by Destous

(..) The ability for SE to not understand the difference between fun and tedious has become astounding; this is further exemplified by talks of this dungeon receiving and additional 150 floors in the future. The idea of this dungeon being 300% longer makes me want to drive my head through my wall.

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It looks like the Dev's got fed up with it too, I think this was the first patch released with known issues. Mind you it is super boring, but I'm sure to it's pretty amazing to some people which is cool. They can't please all of us all the time. All you can do is try these things and if you don't like it move on.

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Originally Posted by myahele

There seems to be a trend of leaving prior to the floor 50 boss if they don't get any aetherpool upgrades. This has not happened to me yet, but I can understand not wanting to slog through floors 1-49

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I really hope this doesn't become popular practice, but I can't blame people too much for doing it as the design of the content encourages that behavior.

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Originally Posted by Destous

But why is it a slow and painful process? What determines if a process is slow?

The rewards.

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Due to the way the game is set up, these rewards will never feel like a major accomplishment. This though, to me, goes back to the lack of unique gear and being no horizontal progression, but that's another topic. You work for the ilv235 weapon, only to realize most people will already have an iLV235 weapon from Nid Ex, or those who already have their relic. For most people, not myself though, it's just another glamour..the true endgame. I'm not saying you're wrong, in fact you're very much right. I just realize now that the rewards will not live up to that "yay!" feeling of accomplishment. Thinking in that sense, all the content gets hyped down.

Still, I am enjoying myself. I'm just not holding anything to extreme levels of hype.

The more I do play it though, I see it is a good system within the restraints of the game itself. There could be more things, always. People did talk about puzzles, while my original statement was "It's good but..." I think if you mix it up with other things, it could work. Though remember eventually, everything becomes memorization and repetitive.

They could do more with these items that let you change mobs. Someone mentioned chopping trees, or something along those lines. Maybe changing into a goblin miner to extract stones or cave in a poison leak. Mix it up with puzzles, like Quarn but with more backlash if you fail. Right now, if you don't remember the pattern and stones..just fail and kill the monsters. If they did something like a 10 minute debuff that couldn't be removed, say damage down or heavy / acc down..people wouldn't avoid it.

You now have puzzles with dire consequences, environmental objectives using items that turn you into a gathering class, or a moogle crafting class...synthesize a potion that wears off a bosses enhanced buffs. If you skip it the boss will be harder to kill, or locks some abilities. None of these ideas are perfect, they all have their flaws..but taking multiple ideas and rotating them randomly, could help a bit?

Looking at it casually, doing these early levels is actually a bit more harder than it was doing the dungeons. So for casual players, or new, I can see it being fun while those who have done everything do see room for improvement.

I'm sure they're looking for that balance, though I'd guess that being a developer just to read people beating it within a day or two and going "this was sooo easy, you guys don't know what you're doing!" makes them go "You want difficult? Okay mother-$#%@!#, just wait..i'll see you next patch with the thread that you started and how it goes on about how it's too hard" so these next set of floors could be brutal lol. Though people strongly feel there's a difference between the fun and challenging, you have to think about it from a developers point of view.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

If it gave ilv400 weapons, people would be happy about it.

Some of you care too much about digital items and forget about the fun/challenge.


Anyways, it's just floor 1-50, it's supposed to be casual content at this point. It won't be considered a true challenge until floor 200 is released IMO.

Deep Dungeon looks good so far for now, and I'm hyped for the 51+ floors!

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Fun and challenge are widely divergent for me.

Possible solution to people leaving at 49, leaving resets you to floor 1.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

I really hope this doesn't become popular practice, but I can't blame people too much for doing it as the design of the content encourages that behavior.

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Perhaps they can add a guaranteed silver chest after beating the 50th floor boss to avoid this from becoming the norm.