Forcing NA Duty Finder to be better, we need a grading system.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

To be fair, they are easy now that everyone overgears the content by so much it's not even funny. Forcing veterens into lower dungeons by rewarding them tomes is a blessing and a curse. Now we ignore mechanics and younger players learn nothing. We speed run dungeons that these players would have previously had to work hard at. SE is definitely to blame, but it's not because they didn't design content with challenge in mind, it's because the content is now so overgeared (and level sync is kind of broken) that we blatantly ignore everything the dungeons were trying to teach us.
So what's the answer at this point?

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The answer is that this game is way too easy.

@cougarel: We're talking about level 60 players here.If I have to explain to them that the enemy marked with a "1" should be killed before the one marked with a "2" then I really would love to know where they left their brain.
What is the purpose of the DF if not to find a party to clear content?Is the purpose of the DF to wipe?

There is something wrong with this community, something massively wrong.Use a parser and see for yourself how bad some DPS are but of course you're not allowed to tell the DPS that their dps is low because that would be harassment.

I am paying to play this game so I have the right to post on this forum what I don't like about this game so don't tell me to play the game instead.

We can clear "expert" dungeons extremely easily, hard mode dungeons too.Don't call something "hard mode" when you can clear it just by facerolling on your keyboard.

Oh and you go ahead and try to find a full group that wants to do nidhogg with you.While a lot of people are helpful, many don't want to do nidhogg.

Tbh I've cleared it on patch day with a df group. Even if i get the trial again, I don't mind helping and setting all the necessary tips or marks for all to see and take note.That's the difference I see here on these discutions as it tends to generalize and put all the players in the same basket.
Yes, some barely fit the minimum requirement to be in that dungeon due to skill and involvement and since I've said before that it's a democracy, yes you can say what you want , but expect a backfire every now and then.
Indeed you pay to be able to log into the game and benefit from the actual content, which to be fair you have access and can be done.I will not insist on the social aspect of the game, cause I sense there is no reason to argue, clearly most people that complain, don't have that skill at all.

Did you ever consider that not everybody knows lots of people that do raids and such?Most people I know are crafters or don't do this kind of content.
I'm in a really small not so active FC and getting to know people is kind of hard since people don't really talk much on chat and those people you meet in the content you do often are from other servers.

As I already said, try to find a full nidhogg goup.I tried and didn't find one.

Nidhogg isn't THAT hard.Most people I see dying die because they stand inside AoEs.

Finally, a sound argument . Now , hear my question with all those variables in mind : how does the option that the OP wants to be implemented , help you in those circumstances?
Cause from my reasoning, it won't help and with that not even those awful df players won't be in the instance, the queue will be longer and people will just ignore it.
That's what is all about , it will alienate even more the players like you that try to find a group to clear, raid or just enjoy some runs in the end.
I've crossed the line with some words which i wrote and for that I can only apologize. But please take and analyze all the variables before pleading for something like that.
From my point of view, a better solution would be a mega server like in gw2 , to be able to find more people and not be bound by a mechanic which is clearly not working as intended (df).Grading people performances will ultimately lead to be less players as either way some of the "elitists" put down on sight for not playing at the same level, disregarding the fact that prolly the person is new and doesn't have the experience or even been in another group that requests more focus .

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Originally Posted by Brian_

No, it doesn't. What you look for in content is something that looks nice, plays well, and is polished.

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Now I feel like we're playing a game of semantics so let me clarify; when I say content, I mean anything the game that the player is given and it's functionality and interaction, and the system being something that supplements the content. Even taking your example (where you go to the extreme of lowering it to 10 minutes to significantly change it, again this is something I need to keep pointing out because it really doesn't help bridge anything and just create more rift). The time limit I see it is associated with the dungeon (the content). It's not specific to the dungeon, unless you want to do something like a time attack(which is the aforementioned content under a different mechanic). Or introduce a harder difficulty to dungeons with higher tuned bosses and mechanics(which would then be content utilizing the same system of getting from point A to point B and eliminating bosses).

I'd consider something like dungeon objectives to be the content thats associated with the dungeon, and the functionality of it in general a system. If you can understand that's how I see it, then it's both the system and content that needs addressing, which is what I'm trying to say; We have the system of objectives (even randomized if diadem is anything to look at), but it's incredibly underutilized into a form of content (what kind of objectives do we have, or if we have objectives at all)

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Originally Posted by Brian_

You could give scaling monetary rewards based on objective completion (more objectives more gil and tomestones). You could give achievements and titles. But, I think there will still be people who just don't care.

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There's the thing; if people don't care for things like achievements, glamour then they should not be placing themselves in that content, espesically if said content is party-play. However despite being a sandbox-design, the gme is still fairly lineiar to how you get to that point in the first place, all of which still requires some form of party play and interaction (which honestly is a given in any mmo). If you wanted to make some sort of progression toward anything (whether it be glamour a clear), you have to be able to make that approach to it, even for something like glamour or minion drops in regards to a dungeon.

I don't like this idea at all. This separates the community way, way too much. Queues are too long as it is.

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Originally Posted by cougarel

Finally, a sound argument . Now , hear my question with all those variables in mind : how does the option that the OP wants to be implemented , help you in those circumstances?
Cause from my reasoning, it won't help and with that not even those awful df players won't be in the instance, the queue will be longer and people will just ignore it.
That's what is all about , it will alienate even more the players like you that try to find a group to clear, raid or just enjoy some runs in the end.I've crossed the line with some words which i wrote and for that I can only apologize. But please take and analyze all the variables before pleading for something like that.
From my point of view, a better solution would be a mega server like in gw2 , to be able to find more people and not be bound by a mechanic which is clearly not working as intended (df).Grading people performances will ultimately lead to be less players as either way some of the "elitists" put down on sight for not playing at the same level, disregarding the fact that prolly the person is new and doesn't have the experience or even been in another group that requests more focus .

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I never really approved of the idea.It would get around the problem, not solve it.
In my opinion SE has to make content harder and adjust level sync.Nidhogg as it is now is a good start.Sure we wipe a lot but it's a good skill-gate.

I get that some people are saying that they will not expect perfect play. I'm sure the soldiery bonus didn't seem that bad when it was suggested either.

The fact is that people will engage in segragation and witch hunts if given the tools to do it.

I don't like this idea, as well meaning as it sounds, I feel it would tell the wrong people and mindsets that they are not welcome.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

I don't like this idea at all. This separates the community way, way too much. Queues are too long as it is.

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well.. we are already separated. Just look what is going on.

The idea of the OP is good, might not end all problems on 1 night but is a good start.

i think there needs to be more an assessment on toxic attitudes of players rather than low gameplay.
a bad environment only secludes pple more and doesnt really invest the the players that need coaching.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

well.. we are already separated. Just look what is going on.

The idea of the OP is good, might not end all problems on 1 night but is a good start.

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Except for the facts stated by others and myself that a superficial ranking system isn't going to do anything but further drive people away and encourage even more negative types of play just so people can say that they're a top rank player, despite the fact again, this is a superficial rank and people are going to play however they want, just like how players in other games with rankings play like they want.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

well.. we are already separated. Just look what is going on.

The idea of the OP is good, might not end all problems on 1 night but is a good start.

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It is not a good idea. Separating players into 7 different groups based on variables which aren't even reliable is far from solving the problem. 'Damage taken' for example, has absolutely nothing to do with how good a player is, a player could take a lot more damage than another simply due to a mechanic.

As annoying as lazy players are, I'd rather have to carry 1 DPS than wait 3x longer in queue just to have someone who might play a little better. Not to mention, being in a certain rank/tier doesn't mean that player is going to play accordingly every time. It would be foolish to even think so. Nothing is stopping them from increasing ranks and then playing like crap and slacking off until they almost drop a rank. I'm sure it would also be trolled.

Sorry, but this simply isn't a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Except for the facts stated by others and myself that a superficial ranking system isn't going to do anything but further drive people away and encourage even more negative types of play just so people can say that they're a top rank player, despite the fact again, this is a superficial rank and people are going to play however they want, just like how players in other games with rankings play like they want.

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well..its already heavy divided and negative.
But thats just your opinion mate.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

It is not a good idea. Separating players into 7 different groups based on variables which aren't even reliable is far from solving the problem. 'Damage taken' for example, has absolutely nothing to do with how good a player is, a player could take a lot more damage than another simply due to a mechanic.

As annoying as lazy players are, I'd rather have to carry 1 DPS than wait 3x longer in queue just to have someone who might play a little better. Not to mention, being in a certain rank/tier doesn't mean that player is going to play accordingly every time. It would be foolish to even think so. Nothing is stopping them from increasing ranks and then playing like crap and slacking off until they almost drop a rank. I'm sure it would also be trolled.

Sorry, but this simply isn't a good idea.

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Just your opinion. and from what I see. Seems that so far the mayority wants this.
Well if this sistem check each player of a party separately and not the hole work it would be easy then. High status to the ones that made the best performance and lows to the carried one.

Why we would have to wait? this is just a theorie, an idea. You dont know how the program team of SE will do it on case the make this tipe of sistem.
Dont judge something that doesnt even exist yet.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Just your opinion. and from what i see. Seems that so far the mayority wants this.

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Most of what I said were facts.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Most of what I said were facts.

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Still you cant say this will not work, since you cant know how could be developed if end on happening.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Still you cant say this will not work, since you cant know how could be developed if end on happening.

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As I said, the OP's variables he mentioned are already flawed so I can confidently say this won't work as it is currently presented.

Also telling me not to judge something that doesn't exist is kind of ridiculous as you're doing that exact same thing by telling me it's a good idea.

If at all i think there should be an attitude grading system on how good/bad you act.
If your a demeaning ahole then yeah get graded
If you need to learn still and your giving the most retarded shitty attitudes then get graded.
Alls fair, grading going both ways.

The more your grade sucks, the more you get pushed under the barrel for queue times.
Less people to deal with you, no matter how good or bad your skills are.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

well..its already heavy divided and negative.
But thats just your opinion mate.



Why we would have to wait? this is just a theorie, an idea. You dont know how the program team of SE will do it on case the make this tipe of sistem.
Dont judge something that doesnt even exist yet.

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It's not an opinion, this type of system already exists in other types of games and doesn't make players better, go play Ultra Street Fighter, after every match you get graded on offense, defense, and technique. You can completely shut down someone and get grade A on offense and technique, but on defense simply because your opponent was able to land Akumas Ultra as their only attack you get graded a C on defense. After the fight you see the player you just beat was a rank higher than you and played that bad. So you play your next match and go up against a Cammy and she's spiral arrow left and right, grabbing you with hooligan combinations and cannon spiking you every chance she can get. You get graded E on offense, defense and technique AND find out this was the players first go into ranking and you got destroyed.

Superficial things like letter grades and overall rankings don't determine someone's actual skill level at the game, nor does it promise that the player will actually play to the level that they obtained. Everytime I see one of these posts asking for a ranking system it really makes me wonder what the spectrum of games this community plays or if MMOs and FF14 are the only things people play. Rankings are present in Shooters, Fighters, Sports, Hack and Slash, Survival and Adventure games. Hell one of my FC mates and I are playing Resident Evil 6 on PS Now and she always gets a better accuracy rating than I do because she uses a Sniper and I'm using Automatic weapons. But that doesn't make her the better player because one percentage is higher, of course the game will grade her higher simply because she has 89% accuracy and I have a 67%.

Now take that and put it into FF14 with say damage received and dealt add the mechanics that drop DPS or take a player out of the fight momentarily, or adds that need to be killed with a buff on. You'll see at the end of the duty a player with a lower damage because they had to deal with mechanics, they got throw out of the fight, had to deal with adds and soak damage that can spread through the team. While the other player didn't have any mechanics to worry about and they had higher scores all around.

For the love of Hydealyn do not make or add any sort anything that can stroke peoples ego in a game like this. It will turn toxic really fast and ruin the gaming experience for many.

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Originally Posted by Erudito

For the love of Hydealyn do not make or add any sort anything that can stroke peoples ego in a game like this. It will turn toxic really fast and ruin the gaming experience for many.

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Its already ruined why not help it?

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Seems that so far the vocal minority wants this.

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Fixed it for you.

So many things wrong with this.

1. Tank turns a tank buster into the melee. Melee die, and do less damage as result. Melee get a bad grade because of it.

2. Subpar healers can't keep the group alive, dps die due to AOe's and have lower damage as a result. Again, bad grade received.

3. Primal fight. 4 people dead. The remaining 4 are able to clear, but take more damage as result of the fight lasting longer. Again, receive a bad grade.

4. Poor DPS can't meet the DPS check. Healers and tanks die as result, get a bad grade for damage taken or not clearing.

So many fights these days can be lost by one person screwing up. Therefore, there are things people would be graded on that are beyond their control. Getting a bad grade because someone else messes up is a terrible system.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Fixed it for you.

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ehhh nop

should i take you seriously? nop

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

ehhh nop

should i take you seriously? nop

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I think all of us can say the same to you, buddy

And she is right, it is the vocal minority that wants this.

Hell ive seen more people in this thread against than for it. Just because you and a couple other people made more posts yourselves doesn't somehow make your side the majority

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Originally Posted by Brill_

So many fights these days can be lost by one person screwing up. Therefore, there are things people would be graded on that are beyond their control. Getting a bad grade because someone else messes up is a terrible system.

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Exactly, a lot of these fights aren't designed to ensure perfect runs, just look at Hullbreaker HM, you have a tether on the second boss that deals damage and Mistbeard has a room wide attack that hurts everyone, based off those two mechanics people are already looking at a negative grade based off getting hurt. This idea doesn't work with the nature of FF14, this suggestion actually works against how this game is played.

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Originally Posted by Zari

I think all of us can say the same to you, buddy

And she is right, it is the vocal minority that wants this.

Hell ive seen more people in this thread against than for it. Just because you and a couple other people made more posts yourselves doesn't somehow make your side the majority

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no bother to keep arguing

Selling you S rank clears 500K pst

Of course I'm doing this on an alt I don't care about, why ruin my main's rating?

Everything has a flaw. Grading, whether by human or computer, is not going to show real skill. And once people figure out the tricks to the system, it will be exploited for personal gain.

First, is this ALL of duty finder or just raiding? Individual based on the content you would be doing or overall? Overall? I'm sure the score used to judge Sephirot is going to be like the most useful data when A3 S4 is out.

What is the algorithm when a raid is new and unlearned? Oh looks at dat, there b bads in mah serious new radi.

Let us consider healing for a moment. I cure 2 milliseconds before a clearly superior healer (Read: Every other healer), oh noes teh gud one overhealed, not qualified for content. Don't crai gai. I'll think of you in da raid I make fail.

Will this grading only occur on clear or would it also judge in fails? Opps, I forgot to heal. Lord Goodplayer McTankerton died. His score is gonna drop because he got grouped with the fails.

Overall, is a bad idea, dun do et se

The community can't be changed so any system that could motivate players to improve or match players of similar attitude together would be worth the risk.

I am totally behind the game calculating in-game score. It would be tricky to get it right with all the item levels and mechanics that should contribute to the score, but it would be at least a step forward.

Right now there is almost none accountability for being lazy and exploiting the rest of the group. This should be changed.

Totally okay with players who semi-afk in dungeons and watch Netflix, each player pays their sub after all, as long as the contribution of said player is highlighted for everyone to see. All the party members deserve to know who is making their lives harder/easier.

And I get it that this would lead to some elitist players stroking their e-peen - but these players can be effectively reported. People who silently seek carry can't be banned for wanting to be carried.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

The community can't be changed so any system that could motivate players to improve or match players of similar attitude together would be worth the risk.

I am totally behind the game calculating in-game score. It would be tricky to get it right with all the item levels and mechanics that should contribute to the score, but it would be at least a step forward.

Right now there is almost none accountability for being lazy and exploiting the rest of the group. This should be changed.

Totally okay with players who semi-afk in dungeons and watch Netflix, each player pays their sub after all, as long as the contribution of said player is highlighted for everyone to see. All the party members deserve to know who is making their lives harder/easier.

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and what will happen , when somoene lags? would u still be complain that sayed player is a liar watching netflix trying to mask his/her laziness :P?

I would say that they should stop downloading hentai and have a good chuckle about it ^^

It doesn't really matter how good or bad someone is as long as they are willing to defend their playstyle in front of the others in the group. They might be fine with it, they might be not, but it's shared time in the run so the info is needed.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

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For a system like this to work, the algorithm would have to check what players are reacting for each move the target does.

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1. Tank turns a tank buster into the melee. Melee die, and do less damage as result. Melee get a bad grade because of it.

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Monster cast x skill
Expected result : only tank gets hit (cleave)
damage mitigation : +points
no party members get hit : +points
If 1-2 party members (non MT) get hit, - points to those players
If 3+ get hit, -points to the tank.

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2. Subpar healers can't keep the group alive, dps die due to AOe's and have lower damage as a result. Again, bad grade received.

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Monster cast y skill
Aoe damage, is there damage mitigation? +pts for whoever cast the mitigation skill
Heal and overheal is calculated on the next 5 seconds to provide a score.

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3. Primal fight. 4 people dead. The remaining 4 are able to clear, but take more damage as result of the fight lasting longer. Again, receive a bad grade.

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If death by unavoidable attack, healers get penalized, if death is by a avoidable attack, the players get penalized.

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4. Poor DPS can't meet the DPS check. Healers and tanks die as result, get a bad grade for damage taken or not clearing.

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It's a wipe, why would it matter? As long dps can see they were the cause of the wipe, the system is doing it's job.

Maybe not a grading system, but kinda what we have at the end of a PVP match with a few inclusions? DPS done, healing done (not overhealing taken into account), maybe they could add damage mitigated (shields) and aggro generated by the tank and damage.
This way people could also give commendations based on objective data rather than "I liked this guy's glamour, gonna comm them".

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Originally Posted by mp-please

For a system like this to work, the algorithm would have to check what players are reacting for each move the target does.

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Do you realise how much work this would entail? This means SE having to take into account every move of every boss and mob in every dungeon, trial and raid. The system would not only have to provide numbers for each player but then determine whether these numbers were acceptable in relation to each and every single mechanic that was executed.

Not to mention that parties react to mechanics differently and have their own strategies and neither has to be incorrect. Even if SE took upon this absolutely massive task, it still would never be 100% accurate.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Do you realise how much work this would entail? This means SE having to take into account every move of every boss and mob in every dungeon, trial and raid. The system would not only have to provide numbers for each player but then determine whether these numbers were acceptable in relation to each and every single mechanic that was executed.

Not to mention that parties react to mechanics differently and have their own strategies and neither has to be incorrect. Even if SE took upon this absolutely massive task, it still would never be 100% accurate.

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That was to show that the system is possible for those who want 100% precision on a dumb rating system. A ingame parse is more than enough to show who isn't pulling their weight.

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Originally Posted by Mahri

You know where ranking and matching systems are good and useful?

Competitive games.

You know what isn't a competitive game?

Final Fantasy XIV.

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I think that you have actually pointed to the problem and the answer in one fell swoop. This is not a competitive game, it's cooperative. So people need to learn to cooperate, share and be considerate of others (that goes in both directions). I find that the NA community is very competitive in it's attitude and outlook, and much less receptive to cooperation and collaboration.



All this stuff with even informal statics demanding certain things or else you can't join, or are kicked. The elitism, the intolerance of 'bads' or whatever. There is no spirit of community, no spirit of coaching each other or helping each other. If people don't meet expectations they are considered to be expendable. There is no cooperation, know your role and the fight, or you're vote kicked and abused. Make a mistake and you're gone. Apparently in our NA community cooperation means we work together as long as you do what I want. People are all about out doing each other, b eing first, and not being first is not good enough, etc...

If we could get this competitive mindset under control and acquire a far healthier view of cooperating and collaborating as a team on things, supporting each other within a team, and coaching rather than castigating, our community would be better off, as would our clear rates. As it is, a lot of players have left the end-game scene, or even the game as a consequence of this attitude. Unless we as a community can learn to be better and more welcoming to others, more accepting of a wide range of play styles and abilities, we are never going to improve clear rates, or grow populations.

I know this is all in 'general', clearly there are exceptions and many players who are awesome at cooperating, helping and coaching, but there are also a great many who are not.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Do you realise how much work this would entail? This means SE having to take into account every move of every boss and mob in every dungeon, trial and raid. The system would not only have to provide numbers for each player but then determine whether these numbers were acceptable in relation to each and every single mechanic that was executed.

Not to mention that parties react to mechanics differently and have their own strategies and neither has to be incorrect. Even if SE took upon this absolutely massive task, it still would never be 100% accurate.

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Like I mentioned previously a few pages back, a parsing website already contains an algorithm for recording various factors. I'll add on that they record every factor regarding the boss, mob, mechanic, limit break, player cast spells, time duration of spells. every cast within the instance and more.

This is recorded via the packets in the game which already exists. What's necessary for further development is to create a formula for the data they already have in the game which in my opinion, personal experience in information technology project development and basic common sense, is not harder to develop than current content they put out.

We can basically even re-use the PVP damage interface and tweak it for the grade assessment.

Some other people have mentioned each instance/ duty may be different and yes this is true. It would be up to the development team to further decide if they want to tweak factors for each class based on the fight to assess the grading structure for the fight but that's us looking past the preliminary creation of the system.

Regards to 100% accuracy, the average sum of data in regards to your performance would be more than ideal of an accurate assessment in my personal opinion.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I think that you have actually pointed to the problem and the answer in one fell swoop. This is not a competitive game, it's cooperative. So people need to learn to cooperate, share and be considerate of others (that goes in both directions). I find that the NA community is very competitive in it's attitude and outlook, and much less receptive to cooperation and collaboration.

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It's both ways. You have individuals that stand by "I play how I want" or "Let them play how they want", which can be the the direct opposite of cooperation in party play. While an objective ranking system wouldn't do the trick by itself, there's certainly a lack of incentive to actually do so when half-afking is technically still passable. Promote better performance in party play, discourage disruptive/detrimental play. I mean even if NA is more compettiive by nature, wouldn't that be more of a incentive for them to try to perform better than their peers in runs, rather than be indifferent?

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Do you realise how much work this would entail? This means SE having to take into account every move of every boss and mob in every dungeon, trial and raid. The system would not only have to provide numbers for each player but then determine whether these numbers were acceptable in relation to each and every single mechanic that was executed.

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Even though most of the bossses and mobs (espesically the mobs) use the exact some attack mechanics in regards to telegraphed aoes, a "tank-check" weapon skill, and cleaves. Having objective metrics like damage dealt, enmity generated with damage dealt, and overhealing versus healing done and effective APM would be a good guideline for those measurements, and heck why not add in things like silencing (which alone would make mobs a bit more varied if they had more things that would allow for interrupts)

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Originally Posted by mp-please

If death by unavoidable attack, healers get penalized, if death is by a avoidable attack, the players get penalized

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Hurr durr I'm going out of the healer's range because eff that guy, I want to get them penalized when the mob does Killemall Deathbringingko because it's unavoidable after I take a hit of Omfgwhydidntumove Umoron.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It's both ways. You have individuals that stand by "I play how I want" or "Let them play how they want", which can be the the direct opposite of cooperation in party play. While an objective ranking system wouldn't do the trick by itself, there's certainly a lack of incentive to actually do so when half-afking is technically still passable. Promote better performance in party play, discourage disruptive/detrimental play. I mean even if NA is more compettiive by nature, wouldn't that be more of a incentive for them to try to perform better than their peers in runs, rather than be indifferent?

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Agreed, it's both ways, as I indicated. But with regard to the more competitive attitude. I hate to say this, but people in NA have attitudes towards cooperation, compromise and collaboration that are akin to saying that only losers do those things and Winners don't need to compromise, cooperate or collaborate. It's a very individualistic point of view that is detrimental to effective cooperation and team work. It's why teams can be very hostile environments to new people who are not quite at the same standard as others, for example.

I don't think that type of thinking is unique to NA, but I do think it is very prevalent among NA players vs JP, for example. In my experience, the US (for example) has a very individualistic culture that values individual achievements, communal achievements are valued far less because it's seen as weak to rely on the support of others. Rugged individualism does not play well with others...

Not even sure the servers could handle this the way the make it sound if someone sneezes it could crash the server as it currently stands lol. That I don't see this really doing anything in the end people are still going to play how they play /shrug.