Lore Incentive Is Ruining Duty Roulette

First of all leveling dungeon is where you learn your class, if you do roulette as lvl 60 roulletes you don't learn there, you use what you been learning in the leveling up curve.
Second of all, you don't need to be so harsh about it, since sprint is apperently hard to use and pop shield on tank? I also cry on my floor now, seing people agree with each others bad attitude, yeah the one thats super toxic, letting people just die. Mind me, I would never run with some one with that sort of attitude, so I'm so glad we aren't even on the same data center.

Ps if it was a troll, you got me, because it makes me believe it's a troll post. I'm sorry if it's not.

As healer, sometimes don't just follow on your ego like "ppl should wait me buff or else I let you die!". If I see this kind of healer I could kick this kind of people because this attitude.

As far as incentives and the roulette goes. Incentives are necessary for the roulette to exist, and for queue times to remain remotely bearable (as bearable as they can be). When you queue for a specific dungeon, you are "requesting" that dungeon. When someone queues for the duty roulette, in theory they will "fill" that request assuming it falls under that category. Without incentives nobody will run roulettes, because the optimal dungeons are specific dungeons based on rewards. Thus they will only ever pick the dungeons with the most "value". Imagine if all level 60 players stopped running leveling roulette. Suddenly your queue times would shoot through the roof, so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Soren_Kazaren

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AV would be deader then, than it is now. It's already a nightmare to queue up for particular dungeons, due to how overly picky someone can be. To take away the random feature that encourages them to float or sink with their commitment to the dungeon they've been thrown in would make leveling up in Realm Reborn a nightmare. It's one of the reasons that I'm thankful that all of my classes are at least level 50 or beyond.

Granted, even with the roulette, some people still leave and take the 30 min penalty, but its potential circumstance is less painful than not having any player run it due to them simply not liking this or that particular dungeon.

The bottom line is that when you are playing a game with other people (like FFXIV), you are actually playing with other people. Everyone has a different kind of skill set, certain amount of experience, etc which might not be similar to your own.

However, since you group up to tackle different kinds of content, you are asked to work together as a Team in order to complete the said task, like for instance clearing a Dungeon. When you are working as a Team, you should look out for each other so that everyone crosses the finish line together.

I read a lot of things like:

• If you don’t keep up, you suck
• Healer: If you don’t wait for me (to finish my buffs), i’ll let you die
• Healer: If you don’t pull less, i’ll let you die
• Tank: If you pull ahead of me, i won’t take the monster off you (and let you die)
• Tank: I keep pulling multiple packs. If you can’t keep me alive, you suck
• Healer/DPS: If you don’t pull more, i’ll pull more for you
• If you don’t switch to DPS stance (referring to Tank and Healer), you suck
• Etc

All of these comments display the wrong kind of attitude when you are playing with other people as a team. It doesn’t really matter if someone is faster than you or even not as fast as you. If they are as skilled as you or not as skilled as you.

Most of the comments i read are rather “self centered” and lack team spirit. Even if only 1 person can’t keep up with the rest of the group, that single person is just as valuable to the team then the rest.

To give you an example. I was in a Battle of the Big Keep battle as a healer (WHM) where my co healer just stood there, doing nothing. I stepped up my game in order to ensure that the party didn’t wipe the trial. I even went as far as keeping my co healer alive, just in case he would decide to jump into the fray and help out. Who knows, he might’ve went to the toilet while we were fighting.

Unfortunately, not every member of the party was alive at the end of the trial and i had to raise a few people along the way. A dps mentioned “So, [name] got a free ride huh?”. I said “Yes” and apologized to the people who died under my watch. They cheered me on as they left the duty. No drama was given and it felt good that we did manage to finish it without a wipe. What more can we ask for?

Another example was a Nidhogg story trial where a DRK tank did all the wrong things. Face the monsters towards group and picking up the wrong add during the add phase. People got fed up after 2 wipes and left. So, before i left, i explained what he should do during that phase and that’s when he said that he was new to the trial. When i scrolled the chat back up, i noticed that i totally missed the “New adventurer bonus” message and no one tried to explain the trial during our attempts. So, i decided to stick around more and talk him through the entire encounter. He thanked me for the information and the both of us left.

As a member of a team, you are expected to do your job to the best of your abilities. Some people work better under pressure and improve faster when placed in stressful situations, but not everyone will be able to. There are plenty of people who will panic in situations like that, or simply won’t be able to function properly.

That doesn’t necessarily make them a bad player. They might need more time and less stressful situations in order to “blossom”. They may even need a guiding hand in order to teach them things they didn’t manage to figure out themselves.

Which brings us to the next point. When reading comments on the forums, it’s pretty plain to see that we (as in the general populous) are unable to properly communicate with each other. We call each other “trolls”, slap each other in the face with insult, aren’t open to suggestions or even in some cases able to properly phrase a suggestion so that it won't “feel” like it’s “forced upon them”. We take offense to almost anything, take things personal and react rudely to things that don’t go the way we want them to go. We don’t have any patience and insult people/kick players/vote abandon at the first sign of mistakes or even a wipe.

http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/5680000/...a83209fe41.jpg

It seems that it’s hard to find a sense of (team) effort, camaraderie, community, support and most of all fun in the things we do as a group. Apparently we don’t see games as a form of relaxation anymore, but a competition or a job.

Perhaps it’s time for us as players to take a good look at ourselves and wonder how we got to this point and how we (as human beings) can change that.

I mean, taking things down a notch to ensure that the entire group makes it through the duty will feel a lot better then rushing towards the end and be frustrated about the amount of damage the group does or the amount of deaths/wipes we faced during the said duty. If you see someone struggle, why throw insults? Why not talk about it and try to help instead?

Sure, not everyone listens. There are bad apples in every community, but for every bad apple there are a hell of a lot more apples that make a pretty damn fine juice when mixed together. Aren’t we all thirsty and crave for such a juice?

Just, don’t go fight fire with fire. You’ll only going to get yourself burned in the process.

If a tank wants to rush when we queue into a dungeon, I just apply Protect when we're fighting the first set of trash mobs. Being able to adapt on the fly is the difference between a good player and the ones everyone complains about in Weeping City runs.

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Originally Posted by ImmortalDreamer

If a tank wants to rush when we queue into a dungeon, I just apply Protect when we're fighting the first set of trash mobs. Being able to adapt on the fly is the difference between a good player and the ones everyone complains about in Weeping City runs.

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I like the way this guy thinks.
Back when I was leveling the healing classes I always let myself get fussed with adding stoneskin, and/or adlo or noct barrier between pulls. Now, sometimes they have it, sometimes they don't. It's no biggie save for huge level 50 dungeon pulls, but even then a good tank will know when to stop for heals.

Yes, they need protect but it will not make a difference at all during that initial pull where they get hit by 5 spongy auto attacks. What is rude and causes actual grief is allowing the tank to die for something like this. The team relies on us.

Please step back for a second and really evaluate if this way of thinking is beneficial to the team and yourself. If you can't do that and see why this attitude is negative to everyone in your party then why bother with this thread, you're not changing your mind.

i came across couple speed pulling tanks like that.
Not too problematic in the 50s, but the ones like sastasha are definitely hectic.
Altho from a personal point of view i kinda like that cause it breaks the monotony of sparse heals

Been reading a bit on this thread and I love the mentality of "you dodged protect so now you die!" I actually got vote kicked a month ago because I dodged protect in a expert roulette. The healer let me die and called me garbage when all he had to do was cast it as I pulled the pack with a regen on since he was a WHM. This toxic attitude is what kills it for me as a tank do you not only complain about casting an ability that takes 2 seconds, but you let your tank die because of a petty grudge? Get real nothing is worse than that and i'll tell you nothing feels as bad as getting kicked out of an expert because you dodged a buff that a healer can recast in 2 seconds.

I mean hell even in low lvl dungeons you can cast protect then switch your cross class skill before you even get into the next pull to have cleric stance you have enough time i'd hope OP helps out with DPSing as a healer too, being able to heal and DPS on the fly while supporting your group makes a good healer.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

On the bright side, my macro is working flawlessly. I can now cast protect, and stoneskin on every party member, at the click of one button. It also asks people to gather around, and wait as I give out the buffs. A few times a tank went away from my buffs, but I scolded him for it, and phase b of my plan worked. Though he probably had his tail between his legs, because he didn't say anything. That was just one of five dungeons though. cx

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This really bugged me so what if I just ran in and didn't unleash/flash/overpower? and just let you die? Then scold you because you never healed me because you were too busy healing yourself, you must have some ego or grudge against tanks who move faster than you even slightly. You shouldn't need a macro but it helps you can cast it again in another GCD I don't know why you are getting so upset over a simple thing that has a remedy within the next 2 seconds. I'd dodge your protect and do it again in a heartbeat if it was you, your attitude reflects your playstyle and is ultimately negative in all implications.

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Originally Posted by Greydor

Honest question. Which choice would you choose when you vote-kick someone for being too fast?

AFK
Offline
Harassment
Cheating

I don't see it falling into any of these categories. I do have a feeling someone's going to quote this and say, "harassment", but harassment is a form of aggression and intimidation - not running too fast.

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When you (general) sign up to be a mentor, you accept the following terms:

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/t/dc9...9f4f549_75.png

So the tank's attitude described earlier by Laerune, can be considered as Cheating this aggreement or as a form of harassement since not respecting the behavior a mentor is expected to show in a Mentor Roulette.
I advise novices experiencing "fake mentors" in Mentor Roulette to report them.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

but they move too fast! I usually have to waste my lightspeed just to give them protect, and stoneskin,

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If they do that when I'm healing they just don't get the buffs. Not to say I won't cast protect but they will be pulling the mobs without protect until I can get cast if they run off.

1. It takes 2 seconds to select the tank and cast protect on him, so unless he is very far away from you, you will get protect on him.
2. The secret to keeping a tank alive when he pulls a lot is to hit the heal button. When the heal button is off cooldown, hit it again! Congratulations, you now heal almost as well as a healer who is 100% skilled in his class. The only times the tank will die now is if the tank overpulls/doesn't know how to use defensive abilities at the right time, or you have really bad gear.

If the tank dies, it is his responsibility to advice his playstyle so that he doesn't die. You keep on pressing that heal button to the best of your ability.

Really guys. I love all these lvl 60's telling people who are learning how to play their class in a LEVELING roulette that buffs aren't needed. Funny, I've never seen a savage or ex clear video without protect, stoneskin, or other shields up. If you teach them bad while leveling, you're going to cry during expert.

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Originally Posted by Shug

Really guys. I love all these lvl 60's telling people who are learning how to play their class in a LEVELING roulette that buffs aren't needed. Funny, I've never seen a savage or ex clear video without protect, stoneskin, or other shields up. If you teach them bad while leveling, you're going to cry during expert.

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You're aware in OP's original post that he uses Lightspeed to get the buffs up when the tank ran off right? He was problem solving and that's the right thing to do until he had a freak out. Even if a tank only ever stayed for protect 50% of the time, that's still hundreds of times for a very menial task which is more than enough for a lesson in Protect. I've NEVER had a healer in the 60's not buff the team one way or the other, I don't think people are as dim as you're implying they are.

Nothing says learning like letting the tank drop (Out of spite, might you) because you wanted to learn how to Protect+Stoneskin instead of Lightspeed/Instant cast(Which is a GREAT lesson in itself). Don't be an apologist for something so asinine.

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Originally Posted by QuinceTaru

Also as a main tank, if you want protect you wait for it. Not gonna lie sometimes i do forget but then you ask nicely to the healer! As a PLD doing roulettes i usually run with SS on my bar so if i do get a sch or ast they can SS other ppl and ill get myself before bosses. Sounds to me like people need to take a deep breath in most cases and remember its a game :D

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As a PLD tank, if you want protect you could always cast it yourself.

As someone who has leveled tanks heals and dps many times over, I really can't feel for you.

Yeah, there are some people out there that are toxic, and not everyone is going to adapt to how you play. Sometimes YOU have to adapt.

If you let someone die on purpose YOU are not doing your job correctly.

Protect and Stoneskin are really not required for leveling dungeons, I have them as some of my last CC skills, after Clerics stance. Have had no trouble yet.

And if they are 60, their gear is maxed out, they've made it easy for you. I'll take that over a squishy under geared tank ANY DAY for healing practice.

Its a double edged sword, you want someone to play your way, sometimes they will, but sometimes you need to also adapt too!!

As a tank/healer/dps I do prefer to take the earlier dungeons slower, but I can't say I've had trouble as a healer or dps with wipes due to mass pulls.

Rushing the dungeon isn't something bad. You will learn to heal large pulls and adapt to all types of tanks, good and bad. This benefits you more than cause you harm. Get used to all scenarios and all situations.
First time tank did a large pull when I was leveling SCH made my heart drop, but guess what? I managed to keep him alive and felt pretty damn good about it.

I totally understand what you're going through. But trust me, you will improve. And you will change your mind regrading this statement. You will realize how players like that were one of the reasons you improved.

Honestly it gets worse at DR EX, I literally just had it a few mins ago I asked at the start Big pulls or Small, it fell on deaf ears nothing silence not even a "Hi", Anyway I proceeded to pull started small "just incase" everyone just ran past me so I thought fine big pulls im ok with that, got to the second boss and it's that whirlwind guy I usually pull him to by the barriers so its easier for me with minimal movement so dps can go nuts. The BLM pipes up "You tanked that wrong" and proceeded to tell me it needed to be tanked in middle... Out of ALL the run's I have done of these dungeons I've not had one wipe/death or complaint let's just say that today I quit DR with randoms I won't tank for them no more i'll sign up as DPS and only tank for my FC/LS.

This is a Multiplayer game communication will always be key no matter how trivial you think the content is it might only be someones second run through give the newbies a chance, And this is someone who has played this game since 1.0 launch.

I... Dont think it is too dificult to be more communicative towards the party?

After reading all the pages here i understand both sides of the coin and... Well, everyone is right, more or less in theyr arguments, so... Why not reach a common ground of ettiquete? If we all want a good playerbase in the new areas/trials/raids/younameit to come, we need first to show in an appropriate manner to the new players HOW. This is a MMORPG game where communication and cooperation is the key, no one can argue with that. No one is gonna run an entire raid by themselves while shouting "this is my way of doing things, shut up" and calling for a wipe.

New players often want guidance, Mentor or not, as a level 60 players we should just give them that. Explain to them WHY someone is rushing a dungueon, for example, dont just run away thinking "Ima get this done in 5 min max" and then dying because of your own impatience. That also should be extended to a veteran player who is learning a role. We all want to do level60 stuff and be happy that everyone know theyr class at least, right?

It's just... Easy, so easy. Be polite, think of your comrades, talk. We are all here to have fun, not to go to each other throats...


Unless you are a greedy lala *cough*

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Originally Posted by Chocolys

When you (general) sign up to be a mentor, you accept the following terms:

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/t/dc9...9f4f549_75.png

So the tank's attitude described earlier by Laerune, can be considered as Cheating this aggreement or as a form of harassement since not respecting the behavior a mentor is expected to show in a Mentor Roulette.
I advise novices experiencing "fake mentors" in Mentor Roulette to report them.

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Healer is much worse letting ppl die on purpose can be considered as griefing and waste time for everyone in there. For new ppl a bit faster run may ruin the run for them...abit but wiping whole time will just make it worse.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

Honestly it gets worse at DR EX, I literally just had it a few mins ago I asked at the start Big pulls or Small, it fell on deaf ears nothing silence not even a "Hi", Anyway I proceeded to pull started small "just incase" everyone just ran past me so I thought fine big pulls im ok with that, got to the second boss and it's that whirlwind guy I usually pull him to by the barriers so its easier for me with minimal movement so dps can go nuts. The BLM pipes up "You tanked that wrong" and proceeded to tell me it needed to be tanked in middle... Out of ALL the run's I have done of these dungeons I've not had one wipe/death or complaint let's just say that today I quit DR with randoms I won't tank for them no more i'll sign up as DPS and only tank for my FC/LS.

This is a Multiplayer game communication will always be key no matter how trivial you think the content is it might only be someones second run through give the newbies a chance, And this is someone who has played this game since 1.0 launch.

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I don't think it's worth giving up tanking randoms just because of one idiot. Especially when what you were doing isn't really a problem. I personally just tank him where he stands in the middle at the start but usually after he knocks me back he ends up running to the outer edge anyway. I've never had a complaint and I don't really see what there is to complain about. So the BLM has to walk two extra steps to be in range, he'll live. My response would have been "Don't like it? Queue as tank next time and you can do it whichever way you like."

No matter what role you play there's always going to be that person that's a dick for no reason. By giving up playing that role you're giving him too much power.

Yeah I would let them die if they don't want protect. Just like as a tank I let any dps (bards) die when they pull mobs before me.
Know your roles

my 2 gil. What "the community" accepted, well if you are going by forums that's maybe 5% of the players of the game, what you need to go by is what the 4 (or 8 ) people in your party agree to.

If healer is ok with big pulls, cool. If you have new players who are learning then take the time to help, that is what Mentors are for, right? The mentors I have played with have NOT been mentors at all, just people with a crown and tude saying this is how we are going to do it (no guidance, just this is what I am doing ) I don't think that is the point .

No right or wrong way, just go with this team this run, what worked for other ones may not apply :)

The kinds of attitudes I have seen in this thread are why I won't tank leveling roulette anymore unless I'm going in with one of my healers. And people wonder why tanks are in need.

If you need a minute or two of preparation before every single pull in a low level dungeon, I don't even know what to say to you.

People to tanks: "Pull faster. Use more cooldowns. Pull bigger. Get ALL the mobs."

Tank: but I'm new to this dungeon and I'm not comfortable

Healer lets them die; tank is vote dismissed

People to tanks: pull slower. Don't waste cooldowns on trash. Don't get side mobs. I want to spend five minutes looking at the scenery. Make sure we get the map achievement

Tank skips a room, gets vote dismissed

I just got the Lifer II achievement yesterday. In all my time doing duties at all levels in this game I've seen a tank run off protect literally twice that I can remember. Five if you count guildhests (which I don't, because protect doesn't matter at that level).

As a healer, guess what I did when the tank ran off without protect? I sprinted after him, waited til he stopped moving, and I cast protect. No Swiftcast wasted, no attitude, no failure to do my job as a healer.

It's really not that big of a deal.

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Originally Posted by CodingSquirrel

My response would have been "Don't like it? Queue as tank next time and you can do it whichever way you like."

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Aka: "My way or the Highway" attitude.

Scientifically proven to de-escalate conflicts.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Aka: "My way or the Highway" attitude.

Scientifically proven to de-escalate conflicts.

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If they're just going to make an asinine complaint about a perfectly legitimate strategy, yeah pretty much. They can go pound sand.

So if a tank runs off without getting buffs, people let them die?

Because there's a rule or something somewhere that prevents you from casting it while he already has mobs?

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Originally Posted by CodingSquirrel

If they're just going to make an asinine complaint about a perfectly legitimate strategy, yeah pretty much. They can go pound sand.

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In other words: Fighting fire with fire so that the whole world may burn.

Mhmkay. I personally think becoming a dick yourself is not an efficient way to fight dicks, but to each their own.

Tanking is so easy. You just pull big and pop cooldown with aoe threat generation.

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Originally Posted by ThatPlayer

So if a tank runs off without getting buffs, people let them die?

Because there's a rule or something somewhere that prevents you from casting it while he already has mobs?

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People like to be petty, and they also like to come here to try to justify it.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

People like to be petty, and they also like to come here to try to justify it.

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That's what I figured, I just wanted to make sure lol.

I main whm and previously mained SCH. If a tank runs off without protect, which usually happens, I just cast it in between heals. Really didn't think it was that big a deal lol. But yeah, let's wipe the party because a tank forgot a buff. Which negates the entire purpose of the buff.

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Originally Posted by TiaHariberux3

Healer is much worse letting ppl die on purpose can be considered as griefing and waste time for everyone in there. For new ppl a bit faster run may ruin the run for them...abit but wiping whole time will just make it worse.

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I assume you must have misread my message, as indicated I was talking about Laerune's earlier post in this thread which I will quote below for reference:

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Originally Posted by Laerune

We all take some time to learn, sadly this is something some players do not understand. I was doing a mentor roulette few days ago and the tank kept chain pull, rushing as fast as possible. Both the tank and me were mentors. The newcomers wanted to explore the whole dungeon, but tank refused, the newcomers wanted to learn, so I explained stuff about the dungeons, I gave them tips about their class and even explained each boss and how to beat them. Tank was not having any of that, he kept rushing and insulting the newcomers for holding the group back.

Sadly before I could start a Vote-Kick, one of the newcomers could not handle it anymore and left. I regret not kicking him out sooner.

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OP, I've decided there's no point trying to reason with you.

Can I get all your character names so I can try to get you vote kicked next time I am in a duty roulette with you.

Read till page 9, and couldn't be bothered reading anymore replies. So pardon me if someone mentioned this before.
If your tank runs off without Protect, just recast when he stands still after pulling the bunch of mobs. No big deal.
"Oh but he will die if I'm not healing after he pulls all the mobs." Then your tank deserves to die for not popping CDs to tank through that 2seconds+, either that or your AST skill Essential Dignity isn't on your hotbar. That skill sits on a 40seconds CD and will definitely be up for every pull.
If you're just whining because things are not going your way, FFXIV isn't filled with cupcakes and rainbows. 2bad4you Patient people are to be expected in Mentor Roulette, but not so much on other roulettes.

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Originally Posted by ThatPlayer

That's what I figured, I just wanted to make sure lol.

I main whm and previously mained SCH. If a tank runs off without protect, which usually happens, I just cast it in between heals. Really didn't think it was that big a deal lol. But yeah, let's wipe the party because a tank forgot a buff. Which negates the entire purpose of the buff.

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A lot of people assume the tank's being a jerk when it easily could be they forgot or are so overgeared it's negligible regardless. I've certainly had my moments pulling without Grit because I turned it off for the boss. >.>

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Originally Posted by ThatPlayer

So if a tank runs off without getting buffs, people let them die?

Because there's a rule or something somewhere that prevents you from casting it while he already has mobs?

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Some people are prissy and get triggered easily. It seems to be a growing demographic.

If people try to challenge me in my role, I usually try to take on the challenge. (e.g. If DPS runs ahead of me while I'm tanking and pulls mobs, I take hate asap instead of throwing a tantrum. If a tank runs ahead immediately while I'm healing, I pop sprint and cast what I need to while keeping up.)

To all the healers who let tanks die when they don't have protect on, and think a negative mindset of letting the party all die because you're a special snowflake... Chris Jericho has something to tell you..

https://youtu.be/wWH-nbZXMqs.

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Originally Posted by ThatPlayer

Really didn't think it was that big a deal lol. But yeah, let's wipe the party because a tank forgot a buff. Which negates the entire purpose of the buff.

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^This.
Is it annoying when a tank storms off right away without waiting for buffs? Of course.
But does it hurt the party in any way?
No, it doesn't. It takes LITERALLY 1 second to cast Protect a second time (and if you are smart you targeted the tank from the get-go so even if not everyone got hit with Protect, he does have it at least, and no one else should be taking any dmg anyway.
Also, you can't "waste" Swiftcast. You can "use" it, that's all, and if you use it to speedily apply buffs on the fly instead of having it sitting on your hotbar unused the entire dungeon so you have it ready in the unlikely case that someone dies and you need to ress them, it is LESS "wasted" :rolleyes:

I'm amazed there are people who actually wipe their party (something that takes a lot of time, sh*ts on everyone else's effort AND lastingly hurts them by forcing them into higher repair costs) over having to reapply a 1 second cast u_U

You can call out the offensive behaviour and tell them to knock it off, if it is as terrible as you think it is, you should have no problem booting and replacing should it persist.
Or you can adapt to mistakes and playstyle differences and see if you can actually have the run over and done with sooner.
I'm really not interested in causing wilful disruption to the group (including two people who've nothing to do with the offender) just to spite some guy who'd more than likely forget you within the hour.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

I'm amazed there are people who actually wipe their party (something that takes a lot of time, sh*ts on everyone else's effort AND lastingly hurts them by forcing them into higher repair costs) over having to reapply a 1 second cast u_U

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As someone who does public roulettes a lot I can only count on one hand people who've did this spiteful heal/tank refusal since 2013 and I think alot of this is hot air.

The kicker is this:

If a healer is struggling to keep up to the point the party is dying to speed pulls and they want me to slow down, I will amend my pull speed accordingly.

If speed pulls are going smoothly, and the healer is just complaining, I will not go any slower (why would I need to, we're doing fine).

If the healer is the OP and lets me die to make a point, I vote kick and replace with someone with a functioning pair of balls.