30 Minute Lockout for Leaving Roulette's isn't Working as Intended.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The problem I see with this, is then you get lazy players who want to spend less time in dungeon, who don't even bother to sign up unless there are runs-in-progress to join. This reduces the pool of players willing to sign up for a full dungeon.

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Yeah, I thought about this too. But I think the top priority should be to have those players who got abandoned mid-run and who already got through their queue be able to finish their run so that they don't have to vote abandon and go through a queue again. Who cares if a lazy player gets to spend less time on a dungeon if it means saving up to 3 other players from being unable to complete it.

I might get shouted at to hell for this, but the re-join timer should be determined based on a player "reputation" - if somebody leaves duties often, a 30 minute timer isn't going to bother them.

But if they leave duties often, they should have their reputation lowered and their timer to re-join increased.

I'm sure it would be a trivial system to set up for the devs.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I was confused by this, too - but then, a couple of occurrences opened my eyes to something folks don't always notice.

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Nah, we know to always check for the duty finder to be searching for party members before asking people to queue. You still don't always get the in-progress run, unfortunately. It seems like if there's a new run already waiting for your role in the DF, the way it's set up now is that the in-progress run simply gets in line behind them as of the time that they actually start looking for a new member instead of getting proiority of some sort based on being in-progress. I've fished and ended up queueing into a completely fresh dungeon, meanwhile a 2nd or 3rd FC mate that tried to queue will get the actual in-progress dungeon.

Why not put something like a self "vote kick" to let the rest of the party decide if you can leave the match without penalty? usually the current vote kick is used for this but it isnt being used as intended then and you can feel bad for using it this way. If you can request a vote to leave dungeon without penalty for emergency reasons and let the rest of the party to judge, at least you can avoid penalty by a legit way and with a window that ask other players to let you leave the dungeon because of an emergency or unexpected event.

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Originally Posted by Khazar

Why not put something like a self "vote kick" to let the rest of the party decide if you can leave the match without penalty? usually the current vote kick is used for this but it isnt being used as intended then and you can feel bad for using it this way. If you can request a vote to leave dungeon without penalty for emergency reasons and let the rest of the party to judge, at least you can avoid penalty by a legit way and with a window that ask other players to let you leave the dungeon because of an emergency or unexpected event.

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With how self entitled most of the responders are in this post, they wouldn't let you leave. You'd be impeding their run. They'd want to punish you severely for even asking to be let out. They'd want you to have like a 36 hour ban from not only DF, but the game completely.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

I actually think it's the other way round, if you don't want to put up with new people in dungeons make a premade. The Duty Finder is there for how the dungeon it is meant to be played. Want to watch cutscenes watch them, want to go in blind and have surprises go for it. Only time I will ever watch a video is for Savage/Ex primals. I think this is why update day is my favourite everyone is in the same boat, people talk to work out strategies, people have a laugh.But that is why I mainly only do DF with FC members and only grab the odd DPS every so often. We chat and have fun whilst getting the job done.

Also getting all pissy with the new person just makes the run worse as it stresses them out and makes them even more careless.

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Actually it's "if you want the run to go how you want, make a premade." So people going in blind are agreeing to accept whatever party they get, even if that means the party doesn't want them there.

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Originally Posted by KariArisu

The current penalty is fine. The real issue is how long it can take to get a party started, or replace a leaver.

There's a serious lack of tanks, always..

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this, did the amdapor EX roulette last night, tank left, so me, the BLm and the healer just trio'd the whole dungeon >...> Was fun, sure, but unnessesary..

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Originally Posted by Eul

My data center is kinda douchebag lately. I keep having healer rage quit at Great Gubal Library. If you don't want enter leveling dungeon then what's the reason you did roulette leveling?

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This happened today at the Library. I take it Aurum Vale and the Great Gubal Library are the most hated dungeons? Three of us were level 59 while the quitter was something like ilevel 220+

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

people just pretend to dc and wait to get kicked.. not hard to just log out on 1 toon n do somethin for 10mins or log an alt lol

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This.

This is what I have been noticing tanks and today a high iLv DPS doing. Pretend disconnected hoping to get kicked quickly.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Actually it's "if you want the run to go how you want, make a premade." So people going in blind are agreeing to accept whatever party they get, even if that means the party doesn't want them there.

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No, it's not. Queuing in the Duty Finder means that you're ready for any random players to join you. And a random party will always scale to the least experienced member.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

They'd want to punish you severely for even asking to be let out. They'd want you to have like a 36 hour ban from not only DF, but the game completely.

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Be nice to other people, and you'll be surprised how nice they can be to you. Leave right away because you don't care how you'll penalize the group, don't come complaiing that people are rude to you.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Nothing you do is going to keep people from leaving roulette choices they don't like. If you make the penalty too harsh, people will simply find another way around it like disconnecting or sitting down and doing nothing while demanding that the group kick them.

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If you make the penalty for leaving early be equal to the amount of time left in the run, make the penalty for being kicked equal to 2/3 of that - which goes away if/when the group actually completes the run (unless you're new to that content, then no penalty for being kicked from it).
- also reduce a person's reward tokens / coin / etc from any run by 5% each time they vote to kick someone - even if the vote fails that will get people to weigh the costs of vote-kick griefing). 10% if the person voted against was new to that content.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

I- also reduce a person's reward tokens / coin / etc from any run by 5% each time they vote to kick someone - even if the vote fails that will get people to weigh the costs of vote-kick griefing).

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I've been 'grief kicked' all of one time ever since it was added to the game. Actually, that's the only time I've even been kicked. I don't think people need to be punished for using a feature that very few people abuse.

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Originally Posted by Aethaeryn

I've been 'grief kicked' all of one time ever since it was added to the game. Actually, that's the only time I've even been kicked. I don't think people need to be punished for using a feature that very few people abuse.

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If you add a penalty for being kicked (the first part of my post) - something World of Warcraft did to stop people from sitting at the entrance in protest... then you need a counter to it to prevent people from using kicking to grief others - something which did later become a problem in WoW...
Vote-kick griefing in fact is a major issue in WoW and a few other MMOs. Often done before or even during a boss pull.

In short, you make every option other than 'playing through' have a cost - and make these costs relative to the various actions.
5% cumulative is low enough that if someone NEEDS to be voted out, you will do it. But high enough that you will make sure you have a reason to do it first.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

snip

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My point was that you're then punishing people who aren't using vote dismiss incorrectly. This is not an answer, just like increasing the penalty for leaving a duty is not an answer.

<insert obligatory 'this is not WoW' comment here>

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Originally Posted by Makeda

- also reduce a person's reward tokens / coin / etc from any run by 5% each time they vote to kick someone - even if the vote fails that will get people to weigh the costs of vote-kick griefing). 10% if the person voted against was new to that content.

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So if some troll is making the run miserable, I take a penalty for it if I kick them?

I'm sorry, but that's absolutely ludicrous.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Be nice to other people, and you'll be surprised how nice they can be to you. Leave right away because you don't care how you'll penalize the group, don't come complaiing that people are rude to you.

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Sarcasm is totally lost on you isn't it? Though, with how you and the rest who think like you, have responded in this thread it isn't surprising. I'm going to leave if I feel like it. I don't care if it 'penalizes' the group and there is absolutely, nothing you can ever do about it. You will have to suck it up, and deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

With how self entitled most of the responders are in this post, they wouldn't let you leave. You'd be impeding their run. They'd want to punish you severely for even asking to be let out. They'd want you to have like a 36 hour ban from not only DF, but the game completely.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

I'm going to leave if I feel like it. I don't care if it 'penalizes' the group and there is absolutely, nothing you can ever do about it. You will have to suck it up, and deal with it.

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Yeah, tell me about it.

/popcorn

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Yeah, tell me about it.

/popcorn

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What are you trying to say? He is entitled to leave if he wants to.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

What are you trying to say? He is entitled to leave if he wants to.

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Exactly my point. Thank you MomomiMomi. It's these people who wish to take that away because they feel "entitled" to the run they are in, even if they have to hold the rest of us hostage to get what they want.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I don't know the reason these different leaders did not start the search. In all three cases, they certainly WANTED to get new members in, but somehow they either refused, or were never presented with the option. At any rate, the next time you queue up for a run in progress and wind up in a new instance, ask the party if they're properly searching for new members.

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From what I've seen of it, the window pops open, and if you're in the middle of fighting or typing, you often click it shut again right away. All you'd see is a brief blip.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

Exactly my point. Thank you MomomiMomi. It's these people who wish to take that away because they feel "entitled" to the run they are in, even if they have to hold the rest of us hostage to get what they want.

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It's no different than all the ice mages that do 400 DPS at i230 and use the excuse that they'll play the way they want to. Of course they don't realize how they're inconveniencing 3/7/23 other players.

Ask yourself this -- would SE step in and slap those people with a 36 hour ban or whatever ridiculous crap people are suggesting for leavers?

Of course they wouldn't.

Here is some more reality. If you actually punished that player, they'd sooner quit this game than deal with your bull crap. Leavers would sooner quit using roulette entirely.

At that point, it becomes an issue of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Punishing people is not going to work. End of story.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

What are you trying to say? He is entitled to leave if he wants to.

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The fact that there is a penalty is a proof that one shouldn't do that.

And the fact that people so blatantly don't care about the penatly is why the penalty should be increased.

Increased to the point of either they stop leaving duties, or they just stop doing roulettes altogether. Yes, maybe it will increase queuing time, but at least, it will ensure that when the party go into the duty, everyone will stay.

I'll support a 24 hour DF penalty for leaving if people doing lvl 50 tier dps in expert gets a 24 hour DF penalty as well in the same patch

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Originally Posted by Dorander

Exactly my point. Thank you MomomiMomi. It's these people who wish to take that away because they feel "entitled" to the run they are in, even if they have to hold the rest of us hostage to get what they want.

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I don't think you can reasonably claim being held "hostage" in a situation you willingly signed yourself up for. Next you're telling us your electricity provider is a bandit because he demands you to fulfill your part of the contract and pay and wants to enforce that via law >_>

Hilarious thread. But will never happen

Odds are the people who this will affect the most may not become the intended target. Also it would seem if that is implemented it would be better to run as a tank or healer with a pre-made instead of going solo.

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Originally Posted by Camate

The current penalty was set with the following circumstances in mind:

• Users abandoning a duty continuously while trying to get placed into a specific duty

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This is easy. Lock the roulette so that you'll always end in the same duty for the day.
And if people can't "chose" their duty, we might not even need the 30 minutes penalty anymore.

Another thing that can be done is have a special tab on the duty finder for "distress calls". There you could see a notification for what roles are needed for duties in-progress without letting you know what those duties are beforehand (to avoid abuse). They could offer a reward (on top of the normal rewards for the duty) that is not too big but that would still be nice to have (like ventures, for instance). I'm sure some people would be willing to help without the need for big rewards and they just need the means to know there's people abandoned to their luck. Don't reward something like tomestones so that people don't use these calls as a replacement for their roulettes and to avoid people exploiting them in some way.

You could also see notifications for these distress calls on your recommendations window if they match your current role.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

I'll support a 24 hour DF penalty for leaving if people doing lvl 50 tier dps in expert gets a 24 hour DF penalty as well in the same patch

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Severity of errors here. Experts are where players are supposed to be refining their skills, not where you expect their performance to be at par. If you can't tolerate a DPS doing poorly, don't queue.

A DPS doing poorly is failing a skillcheck. A Tank dumping a party is being rude. I'd rather help a poor player improve than give any forgiveness for someone being rude.

I mean, otherwise we can give healers the ability to give a month queue ban to Tanks for over-pulling beyond their healer's comfort/gear limits, right?

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Originally Posted by KariArisu

There's also NO WAY to know a party in progress needs a replacement, without queuing for them.

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This - I'd be quite happy to jump into duties in progress and fill the hole if I could see what was needed. I queue with in progress quite a bit, but usually only ever get into new duties, it's quite the crapshoot.

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Originally Posted by ShadowYomi

Odds are the people who this will affect the most may not become the intended target.

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I agree with this statement, as I have left dungeons a couple times in the past due to harassment. Maybe I should have just reported the people doing the harassment, but sometimes it's just easier to drop out. Having to wait a full 30 min to que again is harsh enough, especially as dps que times can take 30 min or longer in its self.

Thank you for this thread because the amalgamation of terrible ideas like yours and many posters here made me smile.

It makes for a great read.

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Originally Posted by Jatoi

Thank you for this thread because the amalgamation of terrible ideas like yours and many posters here made me smile.

It makes for a great read.

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Oh, I bet YOUR ideas may be fascinating then. I'm all ears.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

So if some troll is making the run miserable, I take a penalty for it if I kick them?

I'm sorry, but that's absolutely ludicrous.

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You already do. You can only vote kick once every 4 hours.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

You already do. You can only vote kick once every 4 hours.

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The amount of times I have needed to use the Vote Kick feature is so large that I've never once had this be an issue. In fact, I didn't even know about this limitation until this thread was made.

(Obligatory statement stating that the use of the word large in the previous sentence is sarcasm)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, maybe it will increase queuing time, but at least, it will ensure that when the party go into the duty, everyone will stay.

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As it's been said before: Duty Finder would become an absolute ghost town. Nobody would queue up for anything, except a very small percentage. Everyone else, would jump in with FC mates/friends. Tanks would probably have 30 minute waits, heals - about the same, and DPS? They'd get to do about one dungeon a day.. if they stayed logged in for hours waiting. So, yes let's implement what you suggest. You'll be back on the forums complaining that premades should get less rewards, that people can only premade once a day, ect.. Further killing the the game and making people unsub.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

I don't think you can reasonably claim being held "hostage" in a situation you willingly signed yourself up for. Next you're telling us your electricity provider is a bandit because he demands you to fulfill your part of the contract and pay and wants to enforce that via law >_>

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If I'm under penalty of a 12 - 36 hour ban from DF for leaving due to A: the group is bad., B: the dungeon sucks., C:if I just feel like it.. Yes, I'm being held hostage by an unreasonable punishment. So, most wouldn't DF dungeons. They'd premade just so they wouldn't have to deal with randoms. That's why 30 minutes is acceptable. I can still go do something else and stay logged in playing the game. If I'm locked out of doing anything with dungeons for whole half day (or longer), I might as well log out. That's how you kill subs and FFXIV would fail as a game.

As for you example about an electric company - here's another one: This is what you are proposing using the same analogy: If you miss a bill payment, the electric company come into your home and shoots you in the knee. Miss another payment, they shoot you in the other knee. The law would be on their side, since it's in your contract. People would stop using that electric company real quick, and that electric company would either change it's policy or fail.

So really, you all need to think further than the end of your own butt-hurt noses. So what, someone left, you can also leave and requeue without consequence, or wait for a someone to fill the slot. Big deal. At most you are out an extra 15 minutes and that's if you are playing a dps, because rarely does it take longer than that to get into a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

If I'm under penalty of a 12 - 36 hour ban from DF for leaving due to A: the group is bad., B: the dungeon sucks., C:if I just feel like it.. Yes, I'm being held hostage by an unreasonable punishment.

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No, no you aren't. And with those reasons, you simply do not deserve any sympathy. The only people who deserve sympathy are those who have to leave due to an RL emergency or "leave" due to other factors out of their control. Those need to be protected and those are the reason why the penalty can't be all too harsh. But this? Seriously?

Frankly, one cannot support the suggestion of this thread any better than you just do. The fact that you consider completely frivolous reasons as valid reasons for leaving is a clear sign the lockout is not working as intended. And you even state why: Because it's completely inconsequential.

Bravo.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Oh, I bet YOUR ideas may be fascinating then. I'm all ears.

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My idea is: Don't fix what isn't broken. Devs seem to be likeminded because one posted with the following reasons as to why the penalty exists:

Users abandoning a duty continuously while trying to get placed into a specific duty
Users leaving a duty because of emergency situations that arose outside of the game

https://media.giphy.com/media/3i7zenReaUuI0/giphy.gif

Then again, I am conscientious-enough to consider emergency situations actually exist.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

As it's been said before: Duty Finder would become an absolute ghost town. Nobody would queue up for anything, except a very small percentage.

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Except all who don't care about whatever duty they end up with...which is, luckily, the majority of the people. So, actually, no, it won't change much.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

A: the group is bad.

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Go in premade

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Originally Posted by Dorander

B: the dungeon sucks.

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Don't queue for a roulette

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Originally Posted by Dorander

So really, you all need to think further than the end of your own butt-hurt noses.

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Says the one who admit several times that he doesn't give a f*** about others, nice.

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Originally Posted by Jatoi

My idea is: Don't fix what isn't broken. Devs seem to be likeminded because one posted with the following reasons as to why the penalty exists:

Users abandoning a duty continuously while trying to get placed into a specific duty
Users leaving a duty because of emergency situations that arose outside of the game

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Yeah, that's true about what to do with those abandoning a duty, but what to do with those being abandoned? Do you think there's nothing to fix there?

https://media.giphy.com/media/3i7zenReaUuI0/giphy.gif

I think I've given a couple of ideas regarding what to do to help the people being abandoned, but apparently they're part of the "amalgamation of terrible ideas like yours and many posters here" according to you.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Yeah, that's true about what to do with those abandoning a duty, but what to do with those being abandoned? Do you think there's nothing to fix there?

https://media.giphy.com/media/3i7zenReaUuI0/giphy.gif

I think I've given a couple of ideas regarding what to do to help the people being abandoned, but apparently they're part of the "amalgamation of terrible ideas like yours and many posters here" according to you.

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I like how you think "many" is "all". The people left behind either wait or abandon, everyone's been on the receiving end at least once. It's mainly an issue when it's a healer or tank that bails because DPS are more disposable due to how common they are- and that's another problem in itself. I was addressing the overly-aggressive punishments people want to instill on those who have to leave.

I think you seriously need help with a few things when it comes to reading ( as apparently with my corrections, I need help with my typos ).