Tank Balance - Thordan EX 7-WAR 1-WHM Clear (Really SE?)

I Don't Exactly See What Was Wrong There. It Was Just 7 WARs And A WHM.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

I already explained in specific CD and key GCD break-downs why Thordan EX almost couldn't get better for WAR DPS.

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And I still don't see how it is definitive proof that everything is "Ok"...since, basically, every EX Primal or higher content seems to also be designed to favor WAR in a way.

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Originally Posted by Vogue

nonsense

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http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/...60-git-gud.png

1 : BRD/MCH have low DPS. It's not a surprising thing that WAR can get close to that as OT in Thordan EX considering how the fight is literally tuned around Berserk's CD/duration/pacification timers. Yet, it's "getting close to" not "outperforming", and considering that it's the lowest DPS of all the DPS, it's not that bad. And considering that DRK is in the same DPS range as WAR as OT (just a little below), it's not a "WAR" thing, it's a tank thing.

2 : BRD/MCH DPS isn't only on their numbers. They increase everyone else's DPS, as Brian_ specified it. So, without them, the other party members wouldn't be as high. It compensates for their lower personnal DPS.

3 : You're talking about potency differences between tanks and BRD/MCH, but that makes no sense, look at MNK potencies, yet they're the current top DPS. Look at BLM potencies, yet they have very high DPS. That's because they have the toolkit and the buffs that make these low potencies do high damage. BRD/MCH have these low potencies but a LOT of offensive cooldowns, a 30% damage increasing stance, and a toolkit that favors party-DPS increase. Plus, WAR's potencies aren't that high. Only the 500 pot Fell Cleave is very very high potency, everything else is in the "average potency" range, all jobs included. Plus, their only damaging oGCD is Brutal Swing (100 pot). What makes their DPS "high" is Berserk (Maim doesn't really count, every job has something like that except PLD).

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/...60-git-gud.png

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I think at this point Yoshi is crying about the abuse that meme gives. It's a pretty tacky way to try and validate an argument.

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Originally Posted by ArkNova

I think at this point Yoshi is crying about the abuse that meme gives. It's a pretty tacky way to try and validate an argument.

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That's mostly a funny thing. This meme is becoming redundant as fuck in these forums and it's not what you should focus on when answering my post.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

That's mostly a funny thing. This meme is becoming redundant as fuck in these forums and it's not what you should focus on when answering my post.

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Lead by example and stop using it. First thing I see when someone posts that is I can't take them seriously.

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Originally Posted by ArkNova

Lead by example and stop using it. First thing I see when someone posts that is I can't take them seriously.

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I'm not gonna stop doing funny things on a video game forum for the sake of people taking me seriously. If you can't understand my point because you're not taking me seriously because I put a funny image on my post, I have bad news for you.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/...60-git-gud.png
.

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Pretty much this.

DPS classes work on the notion of constant uptime, especially Monk, Summoner, Bard, and Black Mage.

Dragoon, Ninja, Machinist are more out-the-gate, but still maintain the more-uptime mo' damages.

Warrior moves through high burst phases followed by moderate waiting-on-cd-phases, which on-and-off encounters like Ravana and Thordan work well with. In any scenario where you have constant uptime, then the Warrior falls behind the DPS classes by a sizable margin.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Thordan is also bad example because you do not need single vitality part for that kind of content if you run with 210 ilvl in 190 ilvl content. But i agree warrior is bit superior compared other tanks. You have aggro combo in your dps rotatio while other tanks need sacrifice dps while building some extra treat, you have infinite tp while other tanks run out in 3min, you have slashing debuff that is pretty huge dps boost compared pld/drk combo if there is not ninja in the party. My suggestion would be put slashing debuff for pld Royal Authority.

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Nah, don't give it to plds, just creates a different problem. Just take it away from war, leave it only to nin. None of the tanks can complain at that point, only nins in the drop of their dps by having to reapply it anyway.

Warrior is a bit better than other two tank is the sentence. it make war the top tier tank.
And if the war get nerfed, it will still be top tier or not, and you will all complain and crying like babys again about the new top tier tank XD.
Because there always a top tier anyway.
SE can make more balance, but should not listen to all this crying babies or they will mess something.
At crying so much maybe you want your favorite tank to not be able to wear strenght accesories anymore, it would end your dramatic annoying story... and maybe shut your mouth about your tank flamme war for good...

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Originally Posted by kensatsu

At crying so much maybe you want your favorite tank to not be able to wear strenght accesories anymore, it would end your dramatic annoying story... and maybe shut your mouth about your tank flamme war for good...

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So much word to say so little...
And spreading a wrong idea too. "Top tier" is not mandatory, as long as you put enough thoughts in each tank to make them more different.
Exactly why I think "Increasing PLD DPS" is kind of a bad solution.
And also why I think nerfing WAR is more viable. Give it some "cons" to counter its "pros".

1) you don't wish to not be able to stack strenght on your tank XD, so you don't argue tank dps is too high ?. it's not like PLD can't surpass a bad dps

2) PLD rage of the halone is 260 potency, when dark and War aggro combo is 300 potency, it make the pld make less aggro/less dps in MT, why ? ^^ it's a thing realy weird even if it give a force debuff, it make a lot of pld crying... beside that it's not because i think it's weird, it's not should be like that

3) Nerf/up the dps, nerf/up the migitation depend of the next raid direction, how do you know what need to be nerf and what need to be up , since if there any change it come with the new raid in 3.2 ? it's pretty much why SE don't have to listen to crying babies XD

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Originally Posted by kensatsu

crying

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Originally Posted by kensatsu

crying

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Did you just come in here to cry about what you perceive as crying or do you actually have anything to add to the discussion?

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

1 : BRD/MCH have low DPS. It's not a surprising thing that WAR can get close to that as OT in Thordan EX considering how the fight is literally tuned around Berserk's CD/duration/pacification timers. Yet, it's "getting close to" not "outperforming", and considering that it's the lowest DPS of all the DPS, it's not that bad. And considering that DRK is in the same DPS range as WAR as OT (just a little below), it's not a "WAR" thing, it's a tank thing.

2 : BRD/MCH DPS isn't only on their numbers. They increase everyone else's DPS, as Brian_ specified it. So, without them, the other party members wouldn't be as high. It compensates for their lower personnal DPS.

3 : You're talking about potency differences between tanks and BRD/MCH, but that makes no sense, look at MNK potencies, yet they're the current top DPS. Look at BLM potencies, yet they have very high DPS. That's because they have the toolkit and the buffs that make these low potencies do high damage. BRD/MCH have these low potencies but a LOT of offensive cooldowns, a 30% damage increasing stance, and a toolkit that favors party-DPS increase. Plus, WAR's potencies aren't that high. Only the 500 pot Fell Cleave is very very high potency, everything else is in the "average potency" range, all jobs included. Plus, their only damaging oGCD is Brutal Swing (100 pot). What makes their DPS "high" is Berserk (Maim doesn't really count, every job has something like that except PLD).

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war dont bring anything to the table i gues... being a tank.....slashing debuff ...and that -10% dmg taken...yeah thats why brd/mch do lower dps....IS NOT SURPRISING A TANK JOB does the same damage as DPS JOB? if u say so.... :rolleyes:

30% dmg increasing stance? yet brd and mch are on the same post dps wise as 2.0 behind every1 by the same % after losing movility and gaining that AWESOME 30% boost...its awesome going from 2.0 > 3.0 and gaining nothing but a stance that force casts ....and promises 30% more dmg...30% of low dps ...is nothing.

deliverance + maim = 25% dmg boost....+ crit on every abandon stack...+ cds ....oh and being able to regain TP of course...all that while being able to tank everything in the game with 1 button (defiance) but nah thats "balanced" i guess...

potency here potency there.... lets talk about weapon dmg shall we?


Wars atm have too much going for them , while others ....not so much (pld :( ), guess no1 remembers 2.0 ....warriors were crying left and right for buffs (that were really needed , we all agree on that) ,even pld players agreed on war buffs...guess War community isnt as friendly as PLD

I don't think anyone is disputing that the Paladin could use some help. I'd just like it to be something other than bringing them up to the same DPS level as the other two tanks. Sometimes in the pursuit of perfect "balance" classes become way too generic, I'd like to see that not happen with FFXIV.

There have been numerous good suggestions on how to achieve this, either by having buffs they could give to the raid to increase raid dps, designing more physical based tank busters. Design encounters in such a way that the Paladin's utility is actually USEFUL.

Oh yeah, and for god's sake, switching Oaths really shouldn't interrupt combos. I really don't see why the switch from SO to SHO needs to be such a PITA.

P.S. not really sure why having clemency be instant cast, even if it was a long cooldown would be a problem. Hmm, a big heal, instant cast by a Paladin, long cooldown. Lay of hands anyone? Only something that's been part of nearly every Paladin's toolkit since pen and paper D&D.

Boosting DPS isn't, IMO, the best solution to every balance issue in this game. I mean, like it's been mentioned before, classes like BRD and MCH are highly desired because of their raw utility (even though they have "low" DPS). SE should just issue huge utility boosts to PLD instead of buffing their DPS or nerfing WAR and DRK.

I dunno... crazy ideas like...

Give Spirith Within a 15 Second 5% global damage increase to the hit enemy.
Give Temperance Will a Goat like effect during its duration.
Remove the healing requirement from Divine Veil.
Make Clemency Instant cast but give it a 30 second cooldown (make it oGCD).
Increase the range of Cover and give it some other benefit.

Dunno, stuff like that. Make PLD the support tank, it was clear SE was aiming for something like that but just ended up doing it half-assed. Make PLDs the BRD and MCH of the tank class.

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Originally Posted by Merkava

Give Temperance Will a Goat like effect during its duration.

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http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/...8_goat1280.jpg

Could also play Taylor swift's "Trouble - goat edition" when used.

Goats have rectangular pupils and it makes them look like hellbeasts. No wonder ancient whatevers made them into a symbol of the devil. F goats.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Goats have rectangular pupils and it makes them look like hellbeasts. No wonder ancient whatevers made them into a symbol of the devil. F goats.

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goats have like 340º vision ....is amazing :o

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Originally Posted by Launched

What about it? Same time as 7 practiced WARs, even though they had 5 people new (and 2 healers, not 1). I fail to see how this makes WAR OP.

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Get glasses. For a fight that's supposed to be on-par with raids, Thordan EX to be downed by 7 WARs and 1 WHM is just sad, and shows a lack of balance between the classes.

Why even bring DPS when WARs can do the same DPS more often than not, AND have more HP?

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Originally Posted by Raxiaz

Get glasses. For a fight that's supposed to be on-par with raids, Thordan EX to be downed by 7 WARs and 1 WHM is just sad, and shows a lack of balance between the classes.

Why even bring DPS when WARs can do the same DPS more often than not, AND have more HP?

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Because good luck finding 7 decently skilled WAR pugs that can match an average DPS, the skill ceiling on WAR is pretty high. This fight's phasing happens to match very nicely with the WAR CDs, PLUS those are some very top tier players with excellent gear.

I can also tell you Thordan Ex is not on par with Savage raids. Its a more difficult than previous Primal fights but easier than true Savage.

Again I'll repeat, why are we bashing these 7 extremely skilled WARs instead of celebrating their achievement?
I remember back a while ago when they cleared Rav Ex with 7 DRK + 1 SCH no one was screaming nerf DRK but WAR seems to be the whipping boy these days.

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Originally Posted by Raxiaz

Get glasses. For a fight that's supposed to be on-par with raids, Thordan EX to be downed by 7 WARs and 1 WHM is just sad, and shows a lack of balance between the classes.

Why even bring DPS when WARs can do the same DPS more often than not, AND have more HP?

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DPS wise Thordan is closer to A1S than any further raids, and A1S was tuned around i190. In fact, you can enter Thordan at i190, which kind of means that's (roughly) what the assumed tuning of the encounter is around.

WARs can't do the same DPS as others, it is incorrect to assume they can. I play with one of the highest fflogs WAR in there, which I'm not saying is proof of anything in any way, but on average every DPS beats him by 10-20%, same as in raids. Does he occasionally get 1050-1100+, probably beating the majority of players who go into Thordan regardless of class? Yes. But the same level of player, on other DPS, will again beat that by +10-20+% on their good runs.

People have to realize Thordan is a healer check (at key moments only), a small burst DPS check, and a general mechanics check. Otherwise it doesn't take much at all to easily beat it well before any problems would arise.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

I remember back a while ago when they cleared Rav Ex with 7 DRK + 1 SCH no one was screaming nerf DRK but WAR seems to be the whipping boy these days.

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thats because any of the three tanks could do that especially warrior, speaking of which have you seen the 8 warrior ravanna ex clear?

I think two things to think about are have there been any feats done from the other two tanks that are equal to the warrior?
and even putting aside whether you believe warrior is far better then the other two tanks at the moment, should any tank job be able to be stack 7 of the same job and clear brand new content as fast if not faster then a normal party set up at all?

extremes have never been really dps check. More like mechanic checks. Ravana/bismark was supposed to been ilvl 160 content and you already get 180 ilvl gear + 190 ilvl weapon once it was relevant content.

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Originally Posted by cold52

should any tank job be able to be stack 7 of the same job and clear brand new content as fast if not faster then a normal party set up at all?

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Oh my god. Like people have already said multiple times, this 7 WAR setup doesn't clear the fight "as fast" as a normal setup at ALL. If they are clearing it as fast as your group, then your group has shitty DPS, bottom line. Look at the video, look at the boss's HP. When a normal setup would have already cleared, they are still at ~15%. And these are extremly skilled WARs with full 210 gear and stuff, ask 7 random WARs to do that, they'll not even get past meteors for sure.

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Originally Posted by cold52

I think two things to think about are have there been any feats done from the other two tanks that are equal to the warrior?
and even putting aside whether you believe warrior is far better then the other two tanks at the moment, should any tank job be able to be stack 7 of the same job and clear brand new content as fast if not faster then a normal party set up at all?

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Are there even any PLD/DRK players that enjoy their job enough to try something like this? Because all I see in threads like this are complaints that WAR can do it, not any proof that PLDs or DRKs even attempted it.

No, they're not clearing as fast as any equally skilled group (or even many less skilled ones) , and it can hardly be considered new, challenging content when it's been several weeks into a casual catch up patch.

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Originally Posted by Launched

and it can hardly be considered new, challenging content when it's been several weeks into a casual catch up patch.

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And considering the fight has been tuned for i190... The fight was already overgeared by everyone since its release.