Savage Clear rate being lower the Devs expected, good or a bad thing?

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Also... You know, there are easy ways to nerf a fight without touching its core. Tune down HPs a bit to ease the dps check, give more time on the enrage timer (both easier as it eases the dps check, and harder as your top notch attention is required longer)... You don't even need to touch a single mechanic.

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Better gear next patches will ease dps checks on it's own, no need to change the raid just for this. Think about people who are learning it right now - what they feel when SE nerfs the fight, and they get their kill just because of this.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

Think about people who are learning it right now - what they feel when SE nerfs the fight, and they get their kill just because of this.

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Uhm...assuming they would feel strongly about it in any way, how would these people feel about upgrading their gear? It must be a horrible inner conflict, because they're essentially nerfing the fight for themselves. I imagine the statics healer go:"NO! I DON'T WANT THAT NEW 210 PIECE, LEAVE ME ALONE, I CAN DO THIS WITH MY LAW ACCS! T_T"

I truly pity these people. All 24 of them.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

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All of you are complaining about the 'cheese' strat, but you know it's still hard right? It's not like T2, it removes one mechanic from the last 2 phases but creates problems of it's own.

I would be against nerfs to A4 as well, my group is progressing on it at the moment and I would much rather do it in it's original form.

The thing is with the new weapons coming on Tuesday and easier access to 210 gear these fights are already going to be considerably easier.

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Originally Posted by Alexftw

Last. Ability macro calling gives a clearly unfair advantage seeing as they will let you know what boss is doing without even looking at the boss even if no one in your party is looking at it.

Also youre not going to tell me you have time to read a paper sheet while killing a boss. Legit people remember whole boss scripts in their mind as there's no time to look arround a paper sheet for which att he's gonna do next.

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Do you know a secret? Move your battle log chat from the tabs and put in a place you can read.
Go to Character Configuration window => Log Windows Settings. Select Battle from Log Filters.

Uncheck All from chat, battle, announcements, go to the select box and uncheck all from "you", "party member", "alliance Member", and the others options. Now nothing will show in your battle log. No damage, nor buff, nor heals. nor chat.

Select the option "Engaged Enemy" and check "actions initiated by engaged enemies", "Beneficial Effects granted by engaged Enemies", "detrimental effects inlficted by engaged enemies"

Only with this you are ready to check when Quarantine is coming, which legs need to be stun, casting spells from bosses or enemies.

http://img.pandawhale.com/94867-magi...Imgur-MAH7.gif

Ps3 and ps4 could use this "cheat", be careful read information about the game could damage your ingame experience ;...;

To have a low rate of completion IS GOOD.

In other games people whines that all you have remaining is PvP, because PvE is just too easy... Then when they name that FFXIV is super casual, I can take a big breath with pride and say "Did you do Alexander Savage?" and shut their mouth instantly.

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Originally Posted by rappa

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Parsers read from your battle logs though, personally I would rather know my group are on track dps wise and read the cast bars, but then I don't use triggers the focus target bar works just fine for me, not that I have any problem with triggers for that matter.

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Originally Posted by l---------------l

To have a low rate of completion IS GOOD.

In other games people whines that all you have remaining is PvP, because PvE is just too easy... Then when they name that FFXIV is super casual, I can take a big breath with pride and say "Did you do Alexander Savage?" and shut their mouth instantly.

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Not when it starts bleeding subscriptions and causing player exodus, leading to dead servers. The developer's objectives should not be busting the player's balls with nigh unbeatable content (which savage accomplishes when it's paired with how ridiculously faceroll normal is) rather than challenging (which savage only does to the top percent of players, and even they feel it's overtuned in some areas)

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Originally Posted by l---------------l

To have a low rate of completion IS GOOD.

In other games people whines that all you have remaining is PvP, because PvE is just too easy... Then when they name that FFXIV is super casual, I can take a big breath with pride and say "Did you do Alexander Savage?" and shut their mouth instantly.

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So your implied odd sense of superiority is an excuse to ignore how overtuned Savage is?

It'd be cool if people stopped treating raiding in this game as a freaking esport. Seriously, if you're so competitive about gaming you could at least be on a game where there's a chance you might win prize money from it, not on an anime dressup mmo where any reward you get from being the best of the best becomes invalidated after 3 months. Raiding should be difficult only to the degree that it can be considered a fun challenge by the population interested in raiding (probably somewhere around 10% of active players?). Raiding shouldn't be difficult to the degree it has to become a part time job, that you pay for.

Tbh, I think there should be some content with really low completion rates due to difficulty. The problem is, we have so little content right now, that any content is a large portion of content.

That there is a NM and Savage is good and bad for me. Good in that I don't miss anything besides some gear that will be obsolete in 3.2 and some mechanics. Bad in that I don't miss anything as well, since its a rehash.

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Originally Posted by l---------------l

To have a low rate of completion IS GOOD.
Then when they name that FFXIV is super casual, I can take a big breath with pride and say "Did you do Alexander Savage?" and shut their mouth instantly.

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So with that logic should I go around saying everyone is bad because they didn't clear SCOB Savage and parade around with my titles? I've done AS1-2 and stopped at 3 because I was tired of cycling people out as a raid leader because the new people we got didn't meet the DPS checks, my old static friends left because it was the same boring crap as 2.0. There's no incentive to get better gear as 3.1 will give us 210 gear + ways to upgrade Esoteric gear. Coming from someone who cleared Savage coil and cleared final coil pre echo saying you cleared Alex savage means nothing to me, nor am I better than anyone either I enjoyed the game in 2.0 now I barely log on and have become casual as I just don't care anymore.

3.2 is probably where we will see some significant changes (hopefully) within the raiding scene, i've hung up my sword as a tank for progression raids it's not worth the headaches of playing "truth or dare with Pepsiman" in AS3 and it's more of a chore than actually enjoying the current content. There were days that I loved just being on and discovering new things and tricks in the game, how to overcome BRUTAL encounters and actually have a payoff in Alex Savage all you have is misery and i'll stand by that as a long term raider that used to play in Vanilla > BC > Wrath, FF14 and many other MMOs.

Hate to break it to you, but this is an mmo designed for a western market.

Each new raid patch *will* make your old gear obsolete, and the next nonraid patch *will* make raid equivalent gear easier to get.

That's been standard practice in western games forever.

Unpopular opinion: FFXI is an outlier, most games don't do horizontal progression, and the vast majority that do are older, Asian games.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Those people weren't the target audience for Savage.

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Yea, but your target audience makes up a small percentage of players. Look at the percentage of players even attempting savage. Would have easily been double if it wasn't for Alex normal.

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Originally Posted by Zenji

Yea, but your target audience makes up a small percentage of players. Look at the percentage of players even attempting savage. Would have easily been double if it wasn't for Alex normal.

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Yea, it confuses me what the devs or yoshida is trying to accomplish. They say they dont put in certain content cuz hardly anyone will do it..then for our end game this is what we get? Something that less than 1% of the player base does?

I agree with Awful, there is no reason to do this anymore...

NA players are pretty smart. Why do content/gear that will get replaced in 3 months? A waste of time pretty much, unless they make the rewards actually interesting.

http://imgur.com/SgCo11p

This is from the new WoW expansion I think? Not the point, look at the gears effects and how interesting they are. If Raids had gear with effects on it then we would be clearing it in a heartbeat.

However as it is right now.. yeah.. no incentive.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Snip[/url]

This is from the new WoW expansion I think? Not the point, look at the gears effects and how interesting they are. If Raids had gear with effects on it then we would be clearing it in a heartbeat.

However as it is right now.. yeah.. no incentive.

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By that logic what would be the point in getting any gear at all? You get gear, it gets replaced may it be 3 or 6 months or even 2 years the gear you have will always be replaced.

The Incentive, well you can't say 1 exact thing for someone as we all have our own reason to get the latest gear.

1. To have it before everyone else does.
2. To increase your iLV as you like to see your character get stronger.
3. To clear hard content as you enjoy it and the gear is just a bonus reward for it.
4. It's currently your BIS so your aiming to get that gear.

For me and a few other people we see it as like this race, compared thing, like:

Friend: "My iLVis 199"
Me: "Ha well mine is 202"
Friend: "Ahh you git I'll surpass you"
Friend 2: "204"
Both of us: "What?!?"

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

By that logic what would be the point in getting any gear at all? You get gear, it gets replaced may it be 3 or 6 months or even 2 years the gear you have will always be replaced.

The Incentive, well you can't say 1 exact thing for someone as we all have our own reason to get the latest gear.

1. To have it before everyone else does.
2. To increase your iLV as you like to see your character get stronger.
3. To clear hard content as you enjoy it and the gear is just a bonus reward for it.
4. It's currently your BIS so your aiming to get that gear.

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Exactly. However gear with special effects on it does not get replaced so easily. For example I had healing gauntlets in EQ2 which I used for 2 years even with less stats because I loved the effect so much.

Guess what? Tuesday Alexander Savage gear will be outdated.

iLvL is a barely increase in strength. NOT worth the trouble, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

1. To have it before everyone else does.

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Your 4% better. Who cares? The gear is ugly.

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

2. To increase your iLV as you like to see your character get stronger.

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Barely noticeable. Don't care.

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

3. To clear hard content as you enjoy it and the gear is just a bonus reward for it.

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I don't enjoy throwing my face and dying over and over again and zerging a boss until its dead. Glad you enjoy it, but there is nothing in it for me.

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

4. It's currently your BIS so your aiming to get that gear.

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4% better gear isn't noticeable, as I said before. Who cares if its best in slot when you are only 4% weaker doing easier things?

3 more days until that "BiS" gear is replaced. :)

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Originally Posted by Zenji

Yea, but your target audience makes up a small percentage of players. Look at the percentage of players even attempting savage. Would have easily been double if it wasn't for Alex normal.

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No, it would be even less. Alexander normal is actually really fun and well designed, rewards are worth running for it. I loved Alexander normal.

Alexander Savage is whats worthless.

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Originally Posted by Zenji

Look at the percentage of players even attempting savage. Would have easily been double if it wasn't for Alex normal.

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Look at a statistic that hasn't been released to prove your guess?

You sure you aren't thinking of the clear rates from a 3 month old census?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

NA players are pretty smart. Why do content/gear that will get replaced in 3 months? A waste of time pretty much, unless they make the rewards actually interesting.

http://imgur.com/SgCo11p

This is from the new WoW expansion I think? Not the point, look at the gears effects and how interesting they are. If Raids had gear with effects on it then we would be clearing it in a heartbeat.

However as it is right now.. yeah.. no incentive.

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NA/EU raiders have flocked to games that completely replace your gear every patch for 10 years.

You're crazy. And linking crap from a game that just told us 10 more months of no new content .

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

NA/EU raiders have flocked to games that completely replace your gear every patch for 19 years.

You're crazy. And linking crap from a game that just told us 10 more months of no new content .

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If your saying "19" years you would include Everquest/Everquest II/SWG in that category and you would be VERY incorrect then. There are items I have used up to 5 years to 10 because the effects can be stacked on certain items and cept forever. It seems to me like you don't play very many games. An easy example would be mythical weapons, which you can replace for passive buffs that give you the effect your weapon had.

I didn't link it for the "Game" I linked it for the items effects so I could show you a simple example. If you "actually" read you would know that.

Can you actually read my post? Here is what it said:

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

This is from the new WoW expansion I think? Not the point, look at the gears effects and how interesting they are. If Raids had gear with effects on it then we would be clearing it in a heartbeat.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

If your saying "19" years you would include Everquest/Everquest II/SWG in that category and you would be VERY incorrect then. There are items I have used up to 5 years to 10 because the effects can be stacked on certain items and cept forever.

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You can't compare those games to FF14 they're different in a lot of aspects, however using the same items for 5-10 years and stacking them? That means people have to use the same items from the same content over and over and farm them? That sounds counter intuitive to me, yes we don't have flashy/strong effects on items or armor sets like in WoW, EQ2, having those would mean this game with all the balancing it does would be very imbalanced in a game with horizontal progression. I know you stated before your character doesn't Feel strong which people can agree or disagree on, from my own opinion I don't feel as tanky as I should as a tank but that's the meta.

If I wanted to play the same game and use the same items over and over again I'd go play a private server like a WoW 1.12 or 2.4.3 that has patches that accomodate people that want to relive that timeline in the games history and farm the same content on alts that never changes.

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Originally Posted by Awful

You can't compare those games to FF14 they're different in a lot of aspects, however using the same items for 5-10 years and stacking them? That means people have to use the same items from the same content over and over and farm them? That sounds counter intuitive to me, yes we don't have flashy/strong effects on items or armor sets like in WoW, EQ2, having those would mean this game with all the balancing it does would be very imbalanced in a game with horizontal progression. I know you stated before your character doesn't Feel strong which people can agree or disagree on, from my own opinion I don't feel as tanky as I should as a tank but that's the meta.

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No, that is actually a "very good" thing.

It keeps people doing content, which means that content does not get out dated. How many people do you see running Coils or level 50 zones right now, what about all those extreme modes and trials? 0?

So, when new expansion comes out. ALL the older content is still fun/good to do. Now you have more stuff to do.

When content does not get out dated easily, it means you have more things to do with friends.

There were also pieces of gear with wearable effects you could keep, which had lower stats later on but the effects still made them very good.


When Heavensward came out, ALL previous zones were made WORTHLESS. Now we only have 2 dungeons to run and one raid. Isn't that fun?

The new expansion has EVEN less content then the previous one!

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Originally Posted by Zenji

Yea, but your target audience makes up a small percentage of players. Look at the percentage of players even attempting savage. Would have easily been double if it wasn't for Alex normal.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

Yea, it confuses me what the devs or yoshida is trying to accomplish. They say they dont put in certain content cuz hardly anyone will do it..then for our end game this is what we get? Something that less than 1% of the player base does?

I agree with Awful, there is no reason to do this anymore...

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They did a 'wildstar' and though there was a sizeable amount of people who want 'hardcore' content.

Let's recap: they did a story mode for people who only wanted to see the fight, maybe only once. They made a harder version, savage, for those that want the challenge.

What do you see in this post regularly: I don't see the point in savage since I've done the story mode.

Some of these are the people who wanted a savage version and they got it but... it's just too difficult for them and they make excuses, or they're the kind of people who like to lord it over others but since non-raiders can now do Alex they don't feel as special.

SE underestimated the need for a hardcore version, the true hardcore crowd are vocal but very small, so now they either have to wait and people will over gear it, and when they do over gear it, the reward will be purely symbolic. OR they nerf it 'to the ground' like they did with Coil and just wait for the raider-rage. If SE are unhappy with the completion rate then they only course they have is to hit it with the mighty nerf bat.

Let's face it, savage raiding is now dead. Future 'savage' raids will be much easier, it's either that or just remove savage.

So you think adding effects to items is going to make people want to play old content? I would beg to differ I would much rather more resources be spent into things like ACTUAL content not some silly glamour that I can't fit in my inventory because if I put anything in my pockets it'll explode. I don't care about old content it's not what makes the game it's current content and it's longevity is what draws players, yes Alexander wasn't as interesting as coil, it's fights are forgetable but bringing items that have effects like "does 5 fire dmg when struck by enemy attacks" isn't going to make me jump for joy. People are starting to gravitate towards the Alex story mode difficulty, midcore Hard version and what we have today that is Alex Savage having a glowy effect on gordian armor or how we have augmented crafting gear is going to save subs? I doubt it.

It's why the playerbase in NA resents Alex savage and Alex normal, Savage for it being catered to the 1% that want to go through what Coil Savage was however Coil was much more successful and drew more players in. The difference being Alex normal is a "Looking for Raid version" of Alex Savage whereas Coil normal 6-9 actually had some thought process, communication and dedication with great payoffs, you knew what you were getting into. Alex Normal is just a pain in the ass to do every week and you don't feel satisfaction from doing it, then that brings you to Alex savage where the payoff is even worse as you work harder for it and get next to little in return, yes there's a lack of content but bringing in effect items wouldn't make this content feel any less stale.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

They did a 'wildstar' and though there was a sizeable amount of people who want 'hardcore' content.

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If wildstar has taught anything, it's that the hardcore crowd is NOT enough to maintain a game alive

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Originally Posted by Awful

So you think adding effects to items is going to make people want to play old content? I would beg to differ I would much rather more resources be spent into things like ACTUAL content not some silly glamour that I can't fit in my inventory because if I put anything in my pockets it'll explode. I don't care about old content it's not what makes the game it's current content and it's longevity is what draws players, yes Alexander wasn't as interesting as coil, it's fights are forgetable but bringing items that have effects like "does 5 fire dmg when struck by enemy attacks" isn't going to make me jump for joy. People are starting to gravitate towards the Alex story mode difficulty, midcore Hard version and what we have today that is Alex Savage having a glowy effect on gordian armor or how we have augmented crafting gear is going to save subs? I doubt it.

It's why the playerbase in NA resents Alex savage and Alex normal, Savage for it being catered to the 1% that want to go through what Coil Savage was however Coil was much more successful and drew more players in. The difference being Alex normal is a "Looking for Raid version" of Alex Savage whereas Coil normal 6-9 actually had some thought process, communication and dedication with great payoffs, you knew what you were getting into. Alex Normal is just a pain in the ass to do every week and you don't feel satisfaction from doing it, then that brings you to Alex savage where the payoff is even worse as you work harder for it and get next to little in return, yes there's a lack of content but bringing in effect items wouldn't make this content feel any less stale.

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Actually content INCLUDES older content, when you invalidate it its gone forever.

http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Dream_Scorcher_(Mythical)
+
http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Epic_Conversion_Timeline
=
http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Tribal_Spirit
http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Nightmares
http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Trophy:_Dream_Scorcher (house item!)

You ripped out the effects of the weapon and put it into your character permanently. That is COOL!

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

If your saying "19" years

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Congratulations for catching a typo because my tablet's awkward to use when I'm half awake.

Hope you're proud of yourself. *golfclap*

And people don't want to do the same damn zones for years upon years upon years upon years.

Gear resets are how they get you to do new content. You want to keep doing old stuff, be my guest.

I personally don't, and don't play games that make me have to go back to that zone that has one single piece that's relevant from three years ago.

Again, this game is *not* FFXI. And I pray to the Gods that it never becomes it. I didn't play that one for a reason.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

If wildstar has taught anything, it's that the hardcore crowd is NOT enough to maintain a game alive

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It also taught us that the majority of the hardcore aren't as hardcore as they like to think! It's a shame as Wildstar is a fairly decent game.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

The new expansion has EVEN less content then the previous one!

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Ya this is the ONLY MMO I've ever played where an expansion actually took AWAY content lol...

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

If wildstar has taught anything, it's that the hardcore crowd is NOT enough to maintain a game alive

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And if LOTRA taught us anything, forsaking the hardcore causes your game to become a joke and die. There is a happy medium, but no one is really interested in finding that.

I have zero interest doing savage. I might join the odd pf requesting to go in to try it. But apart from that I'm not really bothered.

Yoship mentioned that is clears are lower than expected. Well there's a hell load of hard-core players out there like myself without static , and I mean a lot of us.

And it's not usually that savage is difficult is the fact that you just can't get people together with the same level of interest to do it.

I'm glad savage is an optional raid without mqs gated.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

It also taught us that the majority of the hardcore aren't as hardcore as they like to think! It's a shame as Wildstar is a fairly decent game.

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Originally Posted by zosia

And if LOTRA taught us anything, forsaking the hardcore causes your game to become a joke and die. There is a happy medium, but no one is really interested in finding that.

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heh. They did coil. They did savage. They did story mode.

The first was sorta good (around 10-15% clear rate at the end of a cycle) for the mid-core crowd. Ultra-hardcore (but in reality, mostly harcore wannabes) complain that it's too easy.

The second was utter failure. Because at the time it didn't give any incentive. People tried it but meh, gotta get the loot. Alexander Savage forced the mode on us, and we can all see the result now. Deserted raiding scene.

The last one however was a huge success. It raised other problems (lack of incentives to do higher difficulties because the story and bosses are exactly the same) but they can be solved by some minor changes (delay easy mode by half a patch or a full patch, to let people do the "hard" mode first and then go to normal if they can't make it and want to see the story. + bonus catch up gear.) Though, with 50% of the playerbase clearing it, it showed that the community as a whole want AND can do raid, arguably harder than the classic trials.


Let's hope that these experiments can lead to a happy medium.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

It's all because of the enrages, imo. They are poorly designed.

Heck the A1S enrage happens mid-mechanic. I still don't know who thought that was a good idea.

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Have your tanks grab the last set of adds, bait the puddle, burn down boss. Easy solution.

Leaving a majority of raid population with only A1S and A2S for the whole season was a bad thing which resulted in a lot of lost subs because people got bored/gave up on A3S.

Perhaps I haven't played enough of the latter content, however I am just not seeing this supposed disregard for old dungeons. Despite playing a DPS, my queues for any of the pre-50 dungeons have been relatively fast, depending on the hour. All hard mode primals have popped surprisingly fast. In fact, I've run Titan HM some 20+ times and only waited 20ish minutes when it was 6am EST. The one exception has been Garuda EX. So people are seemingly still running old content.

SE decided if they wanted to have a relevant MMO they needed ultra hardcore raiding in the form of overtuned bosses and undergeared players. They are still pushing this going forward into 3.1 but instead of adjusting content they are soft nerfing it by adding better gear in a bunch of other locations.

The idea behind progression "raiding" is that the first boss gives you drops to beat the second boss which gives you drops to beat the third boss which gives you drops to beat the fourth boss which in this case would then give trophy items like mounts and weapons so you can stand around in town and show off your epeens.

In this case the first boss was fractal / neverreap and a vendor in Idyllshire therefore everybody thought they were ready to go into savage when they were in fact not ready.

This whole scenario is simply bad game design. I have no doubt that SE will probably not learn from their mistakes. Im pretty sure they think their playerbase is made up of people who want to sit in housing and wear bunny ears or talk about lore instead of downing bosses on level 60 characters.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

It's all because of the enrages, imo. They are poorly designed.

Heck the A1S enrage happens mid-mechanic. I still don't know who thought that was a good idea.

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The hard enrage on A3S doesn't even need to be there to be honest. The fight is difficult enough mechanically and has enough dps checks within the encounter itself (hands of pain, adds phase, healer kidnap thing) that a soft enrage like a stacking buff or even no enrage at all would have been absolutely fine.

It's fine as is. FF Series has always had very difficult trials that most people wont beat. There's lots of challenges that are meant to be beat throughout the rest of the game. It's nice to have additional "impossible" content for those who want a challenge.

Besides, Savage mostly reuses all of the expensive art, programming and sound assets from Normal mode. The extra development cost for Savage is worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

ItFF Series has always had very difficult trials that most people wont beat

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I assume this is FF11.

These days it's just not a good business case to make content that a few percent of the player base will ever play; raids are expensive to develop, hence why we got story mode. By the time people have enough gear to clear it easily then it's obsolete.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

I assume this is FF11.

These days it's just not a good business case to make content that a few percent of the player base will ever play; raids are expensive to develop, hence why we got story mode. By the time people have enough gear to clear it easily then it's obsolete.

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Most major final fantasies had some degree of the optional superboss. And if it wasn't in the base game, something was usually added in one of the remakes:

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Superboss


But you're right about story mode. Most of the cost of developing the raid should go into the story mode, like I said. Everybody gets to experience that, so it's all good. Savage mode works well because it reuses most of the story mode raid content. This gives that extra hard core content that only a few % will complete, but at a fraction of the normal cost.

This seems like a good setup to me.