"This is my playstyle" is a poor argument for being bad.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

*snip*

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Read the thread please. The main complaint here is NOT about people who are mediocre, but trying. The main complaint is about people who couldn't give a damn. Be it "Netflix&Game" players, "Ice mages", "WM-less Bards", "GB-less Machinists", "Shield-less Gladiators", "Fairy-less Scholars", players with gear that's CLEARLY not suited for the given content, etc.
These people could ALL be doing better, and they SHOULD, but they don't. And if you call them out, they will retort with the absolutely stupid argument: "I pay 15$ a month, I play the game as I want!"

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

"I have a real life" shouldnt hinder you from being able to read and apply basic knowledge given to you in-game, or ask for advice if you're struggling on a matter. If such things are a problem to people in a social game, then they should stick to single player stuff where what's considered fun to them doesn't cause detriment to others.

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I think you're missing the point.

It's not about being hindered... It's about not really caring THAT MUCH as to warrant studying for a boss fight in a game like it's a fucking exam.

Or I guess.. 'not caring' isn't the right way to put it. More like, simply not a high priority.

More like, you people take this shit WAAAAAAAAAY too seriously.

Here's the thing.

People had all of 2.0 to learn how to play their jobs and how to learn to avoid AOEs and not stand in stuff that's clearly hurting you. 2.1 to 2.5 is basically a review of 2.0. 3.0 expects you to have mastered these basics already plus giving you new mechanics and new abilities to work with. If you got this far playing as an ice mage, you're either trolling or got carried a lot. I shouldn't have to pick up the slack just because you take the "it's just a game" attitude too literally.

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Originally Posted by Havenae

I think you're missing the point.

It's not about being hindered... It's about not really caring THAT MUCH as to warrant studying for a boss fight in a game like it's a fucking exam.

Or I guess.. 'not caring' isn't the right way to put it. More like, simply not a high priority.

More like, you people take this shit WAAAAAAAAAY too seriously.

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No one is asking you to know the game inside out and memorise every single boss fight, the problem right now is people literally don't care as you put it and don't even bother learning their own classes basics let alone the fights because someone else will carry them, and that to me means you need to go back to single player games, this is an MMO, which means you work together with other people. If you're lack of caring is screwing over 7 other people then you're a complete asshole.

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Originally Posted by Havenae

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Ignoring the first paragraph as that's a very poor excuse (especially as I've met people who "have a life" who can do content such as T13 and Alexander Savage).
Everyone is playing this game to have fun, however that doesn't mean that your fun > everyone else's. If you are clearly holding the team back (choosing only to cast Blizzard, for example), then you will need to deal with the fact that you may be removed from the party. It's not that hard to give your abilities a quick read-up when you learn them, nor is it that hard to know that the orange circle/rectangle is a bad thing to stand in.

People don't expect others to be the absolute best in the dungeons (EX Primals and raids are another story). They just expect them to know how to walk on their own two feet.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

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Unrealistic expectations do exist in df parties, at least ones where a party member takes an approach that can cause wipes in order to "teach" the party.

And unless more lasting punishments are in store for people that use the df, there will be the fact that df runs are frivolous affairs and not worth hunting someone down over.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

a party member takes an approach that can cause wipes in order to "teach" the party.

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Though it's no wipe, I do let DPS die all the time as a healer, to get them to stop standing in place the whole fight.

After which, they say we're going to lose the fight, because of how "important" DPS is... only to find out a healer and tank can duo a boss just fine. (and most DPS checks in Lv49 dungeons I know can be beaten without DPS.)

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Originally Posted by Flipside101

"This is my playstyle" is a poor argument for being bad.

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True.

On that same note, "YOUR gear isnt optimal," and "YOUR rotation isnt optimal," are also poor arguments for being bad.

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Originally Posted by Havenae

I think you're missing the point.

It's not about being hindered... It's about not really caring THAT MUCH as to warrant studying for a boss fight in a game like it's a fucking exam.

Or I guess.. 'not caring' isn't the right way to put it. More like, simply not a high priority.

More like, you people take this shit WAAAAAAAAAY too seriously.

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Something like not knowing the boss is not an excuse to be spamming blizzard one or the same weaponskill over and over and failing basic job mechanics like comboing or DoT usage. The two aren't even related, let alone knowing the basics of your class/job being "an exam".

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Originally Posted by Kayote

True.

On that same note, "YOUR gear isnt optimal," and "YOUR rotation isnt optimal," are also poor arguments for being bad.

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Playstyle goes hand in hand with rotation. But the discussion is more on knowing the basics/fundamentals of your class rather than be optimal. Even a DRG that's in DEX accessories can do relatively fine compared to a DRG in full accessories who never does a full full thrust combo.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

Read the thread please. The main complaint here is NOT about people who are mediocre, but trying. The main complaint is about people who couldn't give a damn. Be it "Netflix&Game" players, "Ice mages", "WM-less Bards", "GB-less Machinists", "Shield-less Gladiators", "Fairy-less Scholars", players with gear that's CLEARLY not suited for the given content, etc.
These people could ALL be doing better, and they SHOULD, but they don't. And if you call them out, they will retort with the absolutely stupid argument: "I pay 15$ a month, I play the game as I want!"

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Is this thread really then about a very small minority of players who play to their own tune? Perhaps I'm just extraordinarily lucky, but I've only run into a handful (maybe 2?) of people who are there to do their own thing. Most people seem to try and make some effort at least. Their efforts may not result in anything spectacular, but they do what they can.

Honestly, if you are constantly running across people who "could and SHOULD be doing better, but just aren't", maybe the issue is with you and your expectations are set far too high for encounters with random people.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Is this thread really then about a very small minority of players who play to their own tune? Perhaps I'm just extraordinarily lucky, but I've only run into a handful (maybe 2?) of people who are there to do their own thing. Most people seem to try and make some effort at least. Their efforts may not result in anything spectacular, but they do what they can.

Honestly, if you are constantly running across people who "could and SHOULD be doing better, but just aren't", maybe the issue is with you and your expectations are set far too high for encounters with random people.

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Go into Alex normal, turn on parser and check out what numbers people pull. Do this over and over and eventually you really start to see how BADLY some people are doing. People in FULL eso gear sometimes pull around 500-600 DPS (and I've had a number pulling 200-500 with eso weapons/gear which is absolutely unforgivable as this is auto attack damage), this is pre-heavensward numbers. This is either really bad play/lack of game knowledge or pure lazyness and basically means unless the rest of the DPS do above AVERAGE DPS, you aint clearing. So what it comes down too is there are a good percentage of players, who get carried. No one is asking these players to do 1k+ DPS outside of savage, but if you are constantly below average then you could, and should, do better because it only requires you to get a good grasp on the BASICS of your class.

I'm far from expecting too much from people, if the majority of the playerbase could pull an average amount I would be pretty happy but that is not the case, plenty don't even come close and underperform by a mile.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Snips for post limit.

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Personally, when I've seen people be guilty of this it's always been the tank or healer who wants a fast queue. They have no desire to actually learn the job (i.e. Scholars who rely on the fairy to heal EVERYTHING, White Mages who refuse to use Esuna, Paladins not using flash or cooldowns, etc.) , they want to get in and out of roulette as quickly as possible. I'm sure, being a white mage, you've come across your fair share of tissue paper tanks lol.

No kidding. I did A4N yesterday for my weekly look and DPS was so slow that I got FIVE Discoids. Yes, we ended up clearing eventually because we had badass healers, but is it too much to expect from 4 DPS players with ilv200 weapons to not drag the fight that long that me as a tank and the healers have to deal with five discoids? You know something's up if you can take an ad by yourself with Grit in the second phase and kill it before the other ads that the DPS are supposed to be killing haven't even reached 60% HP yet.

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Originally Posted by Havenae

Might be of beneficial merit to note that not everyone devotes their lives to an MMO. Some people have real lives, they have work, they have kids. They have *GASP*... dunn dunn dunnnnnn.... other hobbies.

Some people just play just to have fun. They're not all into being the best of the best of the whatever. Which even if you are into that.. it's really kind of an enormous waste anyway. Because unless you're going 'pro' sometime soon.. you're really just jerking off while being an asshole about it.

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So by your logic someone who is bad at the game is just wasting their time? You say people may have other hobbies, what if they pour a lot of their time into THOSE hobbies?

Just because someone puts a lot of time into something to be good at it doesn't mean it's a WASTE. Just because it's a video game doesn't mean it isn't their time to do as they see fit with it, and it definitely is not a waste to them. What are you good at? Did you put a lot of time into it? Is it a waste to you?

On another note, to some people "just playing to have fun" is being GOOD at this game. They get a good feeling from downing bosses, putting out good numbers, getting that loot. This issue is so grey in a lot of areas with people saying "well the elitists should make their own groups" or "well the bads should make their own groups", it can go either way.

All I ask in a group is to read their tooltips, put in effort. When I'm a level 55 BRD, grouped with a totally geared out 60 bard in say, the Aery, and I'm doing more damage than them? They either aren't putting in any effort or they haven't put in 5 minutes to reading their tooltips and figuring out a rotation for themselves. It really doesn't require a lot of research on the internet.

And if they're going to roleplay and pretend to be an ice mage, I'm going to say they SHOULD probably make their own groups, because an 80 minute dungeon should not be acceptable by anyone.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

Go into Alex normal, turn on parser and check out what numbers people pull. Do this over and over and eventually you really start to see how BADLY some people are doing. People in FULL eso gear sometimes pull around 500-600 DPS (and I've had a number pulling 200-500 with eso weapons/gear which is absolutely unforgivable as this is auto attack damage), this is pre-heavensward numbers. This is either really bad play/lack of game knowledge or pure lazyness and basically means unless the rest of the DPS do above AVERAGE DPS, you aint clearing. So what it comes down too is there are a good percentage of players, who get carried. No one is asking these players to do 1k+ DPS outside of savage, but if you are constantly below average then you could, and should, do better because it only requires you to get a good grasp on the BASICS of your class.

I'm far from expecting too much from people, if the majority of the playerbase could pull an average amount I would be pretty happy but that is not the case, plenty don't even come close and underperform by a mile.

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I know it can be incredibly frustrating to have players who don't perform well, but unless you know for a fact they are trolling or just being lazy, all you can really do it make the best of what you're given. And by that I mean either try and give them some basic pointers and push through, kick the member, or leave yourself.

As mentioned by myself and several others in the, there are a multitude of reasons why someone may not be up to snuff. Not going to get into the details, but every time someone makes a comment along those lines, we get told "You're missing the point of the thread! This is about people who blatantly play their job in a non-standard way and don't care about the party". Seems this thread is confused on what point it's trying to get across. And that's what my reply to Sir Darts was about :)

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

Personally, when I've seen people be guilty of this it's always been the tank or healer who wants a fast queue. They have no desire to actually learn the job (i.e. Scholars who rely on the fairy to heal EVERYTHING, White Mages who refuse to use Esuna, Paladins not using flash or cooldowns, etc.) , they want to get in and out of roulette as quickly as possible. I'm sure, being a white mage, you've come across your fair share of tissue paper tanks lol.

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I actually ran into my first SCH this week who refused to do anything except let the fairy heal! I take it back, he did do SOMETHING - he was doing emotes and dancing the whole time. -.- Granted this was a low level dungeon, so the fairy was enough healing, but he made it very clear he would do nothing else. So I'm not saying these people don't exist, just that they seem to be pretty rare (thankfully!).

As much as I appreciate getting people to play better, insulting randoms in df(because this does happen, never mind your prepared anecdote),telling people to uninstall the game, and intentionally killing players is just being an ass. And no one is forcing you to act that way.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I actually ran into my first SCH this week who refused to do anything except let the fairy heal! I take it back, he did do SOMETHING - he was doing emotes and dancing the whole time. -.- Granted this was a low level dungeon, so the fairy was enough healing, but he made it very clear he would do nothing else. So I'm not saying these people don't exist, just that they seem to be pretty rare (thankfully!).

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Ugh, that's the worst! I had a scholar who tried to auto follow the tank through a Tam Tara run. Fortunately he got called out on his BS and tossed out some dots.

Like you said, thankfully this is rare. Still frustrating though. XD Most people actually do try.

For the first time in a long time last night during EX my healer told me NOT to do the big pull leading up to the final Neverreap boss. Then he slapped the dragoon silly before we left. Turns out the dragoon was in mostly eso gear and putting out 400 dps. I was in Defiance for most of the run barring boss fights and I was out-dpsing the dragoon. I first suspected a problem when I heard the dragoon do heavy thrust twice in a row. -_-

Bad players waste everyone's time. If you're not going to do your best, don't sign up for a dungeon. Just go do leve quests or fates or something.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I know it can be incredibly frustrating to have players who don't perform well, but unless you know for a fact they are trolling or just being lazy, all you can really do it make the best of what you're given. And by that I mean either try and give them some basic pointers and push through, kick the member, or leave yourself.

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This happens more often than you might think, personally, I can pull high numbers so I don't really care if someone is below average as I can make up for it. However the point is this is not fair on the rest of the playerbase.

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As mentioned by myself and several others in the, there are a multitude of reasons why someone may not be up to snuff.

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Honestly there is no reason why someone can't understand the basics of their class. Outside of a mental handicap or even a physical one (I actually had a bard in my old FC who had spine issues and had to play in a very awkward way but that guy was one of the best Bards I have ever played with) you have no excuse to not learn the class you choose to play. This is an MMO not a solo game, people are meant to work together.

If you learn your class, and understand the fundamentals of the game/dungeons/raids (obviously new players are an exception), you're fine in my eyes. I'm not asking for anything more, however plenty of people who have been playing since release don't even bother with this. Lag is the only exception to all of this but I've had aussie players on NA servers/EU servers that perform fine, so my sympathy for that excuse is slim.

"Not fair to the playerbase"?

The only real solutions to this, other than general non specific conplaints, are to bring about a culture of shaming others or witch hunting, neither which abide by the forum rules or ToS. Controlling how others play isn't much of an MMORPG either.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Not fair to the playerbase?

The only real solutions to this, are to bring about a culture of shaming others or witch hunting. What a fine thing people will be looking foward to after the countless hours in ffxiv. /sarcasm

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No it's not, and the fact you think this is the solution is just pathetic scaremongering.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

No it's not, and the fact you think this is the solution is just pathetic scaremongering.

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The game could hold people's hand all the way to 50, and there will still be those that do not perform well, and they will still end up in df and pf parties. Unless you intentionally want to punish said players via the system or community, nothing will change, and the anonymity of the df will continue to make this not worth persuing.

Gameplay will continue to be vastly different. You can design something that forces people to become better to clear it(and that's IF interest doesn't get lost first), but you cannot force them to remain better in all content.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

The game could hold people's hand all the way to 50.

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The problem is the game holds your hand to 60 and above. Bad play is rewarded by the game and its lack of a difficulty curve, so some people don't learn/know any better.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

The problem is the game holds your hand to 60 and above. Bad play is rewarded by the game and its lack of a difficulty curve, so some people don't learn/know any better.

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But according to everyone in this thread, this thread isn't about THOSE people. It's about the people who are offered advice on how to play and tell people to screw off.

Stay in your lane, dudes. Either this thread is about people adopting a playstyle that they know is sub-optimal for whatever reason, or people who just don't know they're "doin' it wrong".

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

As mentioned by myself and several others in the, there are a multitude of reasons why someone may not be up to snuff. Not going to get into the details, but every time someone makes a comment along those lines, we get told "You're missing the point of the thread! This is about people who blatantly play their job in a non-standard way and don't care about the party". Seems this thread is confused on what point it's trying to get across. And that's what my reply to Sir Darts was about :)

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Some of the people he's talking about are doing 200-400 DPS with Eso weapons. The only way you possibly can do that is if you do nothing but autoattack or spend half the fight dead and afk. That's definitely non-standard and not caring about the party.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

But according to everyone in this thread, this thread isn't about THOSE people. It's about the people who are offered advice on how to play and tell people to screw off.

Stay in your lane, dudes. Either this thread is about people adopting a playstyle that they know is sub-optimal for whatever reason, or people who just don't know they're "doin' it wrong".

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Both are bad for the community and game in general. It all falls under the same umbrella anyway, bad play whether due to ignorance or lazyness or just a lack of understanding is still rampant in the game and discussions like this should be used to raise awareness/try and find solutions and hope that SE listens.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

Both are bad for the community and game in general. It all falls under the same umbrella anyway, bad play whether due to ignorance or lazyness or just a lack of understanding is still rampant in the game and discussions like this should be used to raise awareness/try and find solutions and hope that SE listens.

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At least the latter is generally not opposed to taking advice and improving. The former (whom usually falls into "i play how I want" card) are the cause of most of my ires in party-play

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Originally Posted by Amelia_Pond_Behemoth

The "I have a life" argument is weak at best. Having a life no in way prevents you from trying to play at your best when you do find time to play. Having a life no in way prevents you from being a team player. Having a life does not prevent you from being willing to take advice. Having a life does not mean you can have a selfish attitude.

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Infact I would argue trying to improve yourself is having a life. Could you imagine that mindset at the workplace? Jimmy finished 10 palettes in the warehouse Jeff only did 5. "What's the deal Jeff? If you grab 2 at a time you can finish faster. "

"I have a life, that's why I don't improve myself"

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Originally Posted by Havenae

Might be of beneficial merit to note that not everyone devotes their lives to an MMO. Some people have real lives, they have work, they have kids. They have *GASP*... dunn dunn dunnnnnn.... other hobbies.

Some people just play just to have fun. They're not all into being the best of the best of the whatever. Which even if you are into that.. it's really kind of an enormous waste anyway. Because unless you're going 'pro' sometime soon.. you're really just jerking off while being an asshole about it.

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You don't need to devote your life to the game to know that spamming the same ability over and over or completely ignoring rotations/mechanics is a pretty bad way to go about things.

I have a lot of stuff that I do outside of the game, but I still try to have (at the very least) some vague idea of wtf is going on in a group setting. You don't have to be the best, or even really great, but at least try.

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Originally Posted by Flipside101

People brainstorm rotations, calculate formulae, code/re purpose programs and addons, debate, and collaborate to find the best and/or most efficient way to play their classes.

There's a reason that there is a "meta". If you're going to be hard-headed and respond with "but this is how I play" and waste other people's time, just uninstall FFXIV.

I'm looking at you undergeared, DPS stanced tanks who think they can hold aggro using taunt, Ice Mages, and 1000 DPS/second BRDs.

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You know standards are getting ridiculous when 1k DPS isn't acceptable anymore.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

You know standards are getting ridiculous when 1k DPS isn't acceptable anymore.

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It's a reference to a Reddit joke.

It had to do with some person playing BRD posting on Reddit about their DPS and a bunch of stupid stuff, yet they obviously had no idea what dps meant.

I guess people like you would call me "bad DPS" because when I play as Monk or Mechanic (both ilvl186) I dont ever use those ridicoules small 5% atk "boost" skills. (I call them: blank skills)
...or those annoying positional atks on monk/drg/nin <,< (why we have that anyway...?)

I also dont have that dragoon aura up for the whole time o_O that aura dont boost anything on stats, and those 4th cambo atks are pretty much weak! Only usefull for those 2 Jump atks. ...wich have same CD as the dragoon aura.

minuet/gauss is only for AoE usefull - very weak against 1 target! Its sad people using that skill totally wrong for 1 target =.=


With that "my own gameplay" I still kick asses around. :P
Never had complains in my over 2100 runs so far since release 2013!

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Originally Posted by Twilite

You know standards are getting ridiculous when 1k DPS isn't acceptable anymore.

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It's not 1kdps, it's 1k dps, but not per second.

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

I guess people like you would call me "bad DPS" because when I play as Monk or Mechanic (both ilvl186) I dont ever use those ridicoules small 5% atk "boost" skills. (I call them: blank skills)
...or those annoying positional atks on monk/drg/nin <,< (why we have that anyway...?)

I also dont have that dragoon aura up for the whole time o_O that aura dont boost anything on stats, and those 4th cambo atks are pretty much weak! Only usefull for those 2 Jump atks. ...wich have same CD as the dragoon aura.

minuet/gauss is only for AoE usefull - very weak against 1 target! Its sad people using that skill totally wrong for 1 target =.=


With that "my own gameplay" I still kick asses around. :P
Never had complains in my over 2100 runs so far since release 2013!

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I'd consider you a troll tbh, especially for the bolded parts, since you literally won't lose anything from using them and you're knowingly tossing them aside despite it being a boost.

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

I guess people like you would call me "bad DPS" because when I play as Monk or Mechanic (both ilvl186) I dont ever use those ridicoules small 5% atk "boost" skills. (I call them: blank skills)
...or those annoying positional atks on monk/drg/nin <,< (why we have that anyway...?)

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Yes, I do consider you a bad player.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Yes, I do consider you a bad player.

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Yeah ...
If someone isn't using their attack buffs as a DPS no matter how small or are not bothering to do positionals as a melee dps, I too would question their competency. Those things are sort of at the core of playing as a DPS. It's kind of like a tank not using agro abilities or defensive cd's and being like, "why do we have these?!? I'm not going to use them ..."

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

With that "my own gameplay" I still kick asses around. :P
Never had complains in my over 2100 runs so far since release 2013!

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You probably haven't been berated for such behaviour because despite what the forums make it seem like, the majority of players have a pretty high tolerance for terrible players or have just gotten so used to it that they don't say anything, but believe me they are most likely thinking "wtf is this dps doing?"

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

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I'm just going to assume you are trolling.

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

I guess people like you would call me "bad DPS" because when I play as Monk or Mechanic (both ilvl186) I dont ever use those ridicoules small 5% atk "boost" skills. (I call them: blank skills)
...or those annoying positional atks on monk/drg/nin <,< (why we have that anyway...?)

I also dont have that dragoon aura up for the whole time o_O that aura dont boost anything on stats, and those 4th cambo atks are pretty much weak! Only usefull for those 2 Jump atks. ...wich have same CD as the dragoon aura.

minuet/gauss is only for AoE usefull - very weak against 1 target! Its sad people using that skill totally wrong for 1 target =.=


With that "my own gameplay" I still kick asses around. :P
Never had complains in my over 2100 runs so far since release 2013!

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If this is real, then mother of god yes, you are an astonishingly awful player (especially for the MNK stuff). I get the feeling it's not, though. Most bad players don't actually spew stuff like this so blatantly.

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

With that "my own gameplay" I still kick asses around. :P
Never had complains in my over 2100 runs so far since release 2013!

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And that's exactly why we need global parser.

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

I guess people like you would call me "bad DPS" because when I play as Monk or Mechanic (both ilvl186) I dont ever use those ridicoules small 5% atk "boost" skills. (I call them: blank skills)
...or those annoying positional atks on monk/drg/nin <,< (why we have that anyway...?)

I also dont have that dragoon aura up for the whole time o_O that aura dont boost anything on stats, and those 4th cambo atks are pretty much weak! Only usefull for those 2 Jump atks. ...wich have same CD as the dragoon aura.

minuet/gauss is only for AoE usefull - very weak against 1 target! Its sad people using that skill totally wrong for 1 target =.=


With that "my own gameplay" I still kick asses around. :P
Never had complains in my over 2100 runs so far since release 2013!

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Please, for the love of Hydaelyn, stop playing DPS, keep to your AST.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

Please, for the love of Hydaelyn, stop playing DPS, keep to your AST.

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I wouldn't even trust them on AST, they might find it completely pointless to use cards, as well!