NO MORE ALEXANDER(NM)!

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

Almost in every single RPG, almost game, there is content after the end of the story. Usually this content is harder than the actually game itself. Most of the time, this content unlocks new skills, the best gear, more lore, and sometimes the true ending of the game. Most of the time, the average player is gonna to fail HARD. These players will either give up on it or get better. Now you don't see those players who gave up complaining about how they couldn't beat the endgame content and how the devs shouldn't put content that they, themselves, couldn't reach. However, according to your logic, since they paid for the game they should have full access to the game.

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I don't know what RPGs you've been playing, but the only one I can recall that did this was FFXIII which was horribly linear. All RPGs from SNES to now have had everything available to you when conditions were right. IE; nearing the end of the game or getting an airship or some form of travel. You could point out Chrono Trigger, but that's an exception. Mainly cause there were different decisions you could make throughout the game to determine the ending, not to mention with new game+, skipping to Lavos as soon as you reach the end of time.

For arguement sake, the only thing anyone outside of the hardcore raiding community wants from these raids are the storyline. Obviously people should be rewarded for downing the hardest content in the game, but with such a story driven name that is Final Fantasy, most players want to immerse themselves in the story. Whether it be MSQ or side quest storylines. Coil is a good example of how, at the time, it screwed people. It is heavily tied to 1.0 and a lot of legacy players were discouraged to find out that a storyline, in which one of the main characters(who is still mention throughout all of MSQ) has a side story, was locked behind the hardcore raid content.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

I think a better solution is what happened in WoW with LFR.

Just introduce the normal mode shortly after the savage version, (say, a couple of weeks after, basically a reverse of the order it came out this time). For 2 reasons;
1.) Those who really want to experience the story first, will have extra motivation to do so.
2.) Gear in the Normal Mode won't be needed for early progression in the Savage version. As any possible/reasonably-possible ilevel increase you can get, is expected to be earned for any serious raiding static.

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That would have required them to make Savage doable in 180 gear.

it wasn't designed for 180 as it is.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

NM gives item level 210 gear? News to me.

Raiding is always about and should always be about the social experience above all though. As stated to the person above, clearing difficult content with friends is just tops. But if you don't care for the social experience of raiding or the gear, then the content may just not be for you and you should be happy a story mode exists.

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why is so hard for you people to read?

1.social experience you get it everywhere you can get it even in NM in ex roulette in whatever the hell you want as long as your are playing MMO you are constantly playing with the social experience so IDK where are you coming with this, coils are not made for a group of friend once gear get's up anyone will PF any group for savage...

2. there's only 2 reason why u get gear
1- stats
2- glamour/looks
let's put this.... I have the same exact gear that looks exactly the same as the HARDCORE mode of the raid....what's left for the "reward" gear from the hardcore? stats? Cool let me bust my ass on a super high difficulty lvl raid to get gear that will replaced next patch because guess what, we will have 210 from the island and we will be able to upgrade our ESO to 210 with the new 24 man raid. so what's left? glamour? but wait I already have it :)

so my only motivation to do savage is a small chance to get a flying mount? is that all the reason I will spend my time, patient, dedication and money? a flying mount?

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Also whole game is one huge content for casuals - crafts, dungeons, 24man raids, primals (extremes too), Golden Saucer and PvP.

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Sorry, I could have swore you said crafting was for casuals these days. You haven't been crafting lately have you? If you did, you would have a clue as to just how agonizing obtaining the new pieces is, especially the blue-crafted master pieces. The only casual part of crafting right now is getting to 60. After that you cry. Oh, and did I mention that once you get your stupidly-agonizing pieces....congrats, there's no use for them! The stuff you can craft SUCKS compared to esoterics AND non-savage Alexander gear.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Just by comparing world 1st groups and their completion of FCoB and Savage alex, you would know that these raid tiers are far from the same. It did not take nearly as long for t13 to go down the 1st time as it did a4s.

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True, but it DID take about as long for T5 to go down (legit), as it did A4S....and once SE saw the clear video, Twisters got an overhaul b/c even SE realized 'that isn't working right'

The real issue, with Savage currently, as I said before, has little to do with 'Normal Mode' existing. Savage is boring (overall) mechanically speaking, and way too similar to normal mode...only it feels like you're naked gear wise. Sure, there's plenty of need for 'perfect' play in savage....but it's not creative play. Alex Normal mode, it made sense for it to be a bit vanilla...but hell, Crystal Tower has more inventive mechanics/differences (and that was designed for casual groups/strangers).

If you really asked most people who have raided prior in this game, why all the sudden Savage 'isn't worth it' you'll find is most people just don't like THIS style of 'endgame'...because THIS raid is poorly crafted. ....and in some respects, too parallel to things we've seen before, only tuned above and beyond what our gear levels at this point should logically handle...especially if you don't do 'alt farming' of turns for drops.


Just as an example of the difference between the 'successful' Binding Coil raids vs. Alex Savage.
Binding Coil 1. vs Savage 1

T1:
ADS= 'So you think you can handle this?' Gatekeeper. Required some actual skilled play w/ Silence rotations/dodges/heals/both tanks had roles all while being a DPS check.

Some Trash to kill, but even these mobs had a couple little quirks/there were chests to chase if you wanted to.

Cad.
It's been a LONG time since I had to do this 'the legit way' But the room itself added a dynamic with the glowing floors+you had the adds and feeding to work with/their mechanic (they could blow up), then you had the split snake/even dps burn mechanic to do. Heals were challenged because overtime, the snakes hit harder/party members did take poison and other damage. Tanks had to mitigate properly/hold hate/pull properly/feed (if your OT was the feeder), and dps had to still burn to avoid the tanks getting too many stacks while killing both mobs within a certain small window of time. Now as groups got better geared, they could start skipping mechanics etc in this battle, but in the beginning, you HAD to feed (at least sometimes), you had to split to kill etc.

AS1
First off, before even breaking it down, it's very similar to T1....only, in many ways, less original and less fun.

Faust: Straight up DPS check. Tank(s) hold Boss (or boss+mobs depending on your strat), and everyone and their mamma blows their load on them. Tanks and healers ALSO need to dps as much as possible, while fully mitigating/healing. No real gimmick/no real skill check...just a solid 'do you know your role well enough/geared enough to dps this thing' Faust could be a training dummy for all it really matters gameplay style wise.

Opressors:
Okay, so this gets a little more complex than Faust....in that there's a lot of 'do it right or die' mechanics in this fight. But they aren't inventive or hard mechanics. They just happened to be clustered up and happen at almost the same time. This fight also puts an unfair amount of the pressure on the healers vs. other members of the party (which is ALSO an alex raid theme). Add to that, rng on prey can make the mechanic easier or harder to deal with any given phase cycle, and you have yourself a cluster. But, it's not technically a HARD fight, it's quite repetitive actually. It's just having the RNG work in your favor+ the fact that it's likely tuned for a gear score many teams don't have even when they can burn Faust, and it can be a deathtrap. But mechanic's wise, for most team members, it's not hard.

Also, both these bosses, seem like rehashes of T1

As you compare the next Floors/original BC turns, you'll find, most of the Binding coil 1 stuff was more creative/inspired than what Alex Savage offers. Now notice, I didn't bring up story, or gear or anything of the sort as to why people participated in BC more than this raid. People LIKED binding coil more because it felt more inventive/less 'dps racy all the time' I mean it HAD genuine DPS checks, but they were checks, and not 'push down the accelerator and never let up no matter what ever!' dps checks.

All this leads to people going 'why bother?' Much of it lies in 'it's not fun' and less in 'there's no point' ...if it was FUN, there'd be a point. Because it DOES still drop the best gear/have a unique mount etc. But many people don't every really like Normal Alex's battles/design, why would they want to do the same thing...only tuned for gear scores many don't possess yet. I also think a LOT of people can see this 'Savage' for what it is...poorly scaled content.

Personally, I WAS in a static....but there are like 4000 other things I'd rather do in this game, let alone in my personal life, then farm this bland content. Low-manning ex primals/binding coil, as an example is SOOOO much more fun and rewarding, and can be every bit as much of a challenge.

So no, Normal Mode isn't the problem....the actual design of Savage mode is.

PS: I'd also like to point out, if you Solo-queue DF Normal mode, depending on the box of chocolates you get, you could be working every bit as hard, if not harder than any savage raid group under the sun for your clear(esp if you are successful and counteract the inevitable wipe)....cause, the epic fail of some people knows no bounds. (mostly being funny with this...mostly).

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

read just a little harder I couldn't give less than 2 f$%@ if the gear is dyable or not, what I'm talking about is that everyone has the gear we are being "rewarded" with from the highest content that looks exactly the same of the cheap easy version... It's not as rewarding since stat wise, will be replace in the few patches and glamour wise you can easily get it from the easy version, so what's the point of having that gear?

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So what if you couldn't give less than 2 f$%@ if the gear is dyable or not.
It's still a better gear from the stats so it's better for progression in savage.
it's better for glamour because it's dyeable unlike the normal version.
will be replace in the few patches? it's been the best gear for a few months now, and it will still be the best until 3.1 which is still more than a month away!
Do you want it to last forever? Gear gets replaced, this is how it is with vertical progression MMOs!
Were you this salty when NQ HW gear replaced coil gear?
And right now savage is the only place where you can get the mount, which compared to gear will last forever.
And the Devs did say that savage is for those who want a challenge.
Those are all reasons to do savage. gear(glamour + stats), mount, and the challenge.
so if those aren't enough for you, well them's the breaks.

Alexander NM/Savage exists cause people asked for it and the story behind it was the main issue so no lore/story isn't an option to motivate you through it.

Savage is for the glory, the challenge and if you didn't notice you get 210ilv gear there, which are the higher in game, other than that it's the only possibility to dye not only the NM gear but the Eso as well. The weapons drop only in the Savage too.

Thos then is just my opinion but everything happened fast due to HW being newborn. Once the main activities are out I bet the gear progress will slow down a bit and you'll have more than 3 months, maybe 6?, to show off your epeen before someone could get something better than you.

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

before you start reading: Since I realized with this threat that people can read but not understand what they are reading at the same time here is a few things before anyone decides to go all out without understanding this thread This is not about gating Story to anyone nor is to eliminate NM or something alike. It is about making SAVAGE desirable.

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You get a unique mount. You get higher ilevel gear. You get gear that can be dyed to stand out better. You get bragging rights about being in the top very few percent of the playerbase.

Is that not ENOUGH?

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

True, but it DID take about as long for T5 to go down (legit), as it did A4S....and once SE saw the clear video, Twisters got an overhaul b/c even SE realized 'that isn't working right'

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SE blocked access to turn 5 for a while to fix exploits some had used to clear it before which slowed down progression in there, otherwise it would have been cleared quicker than it was. It wasn't difficulty that slowed progression there it was the simple fact you could not go there.

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

let's put this.... I have the same exact gear that looks exactly the same as the HARDCORE mode of the raid....what's left for the "reward" gear from the hardcore? stats? Cool let me bust my ass on a super high difficulty lvl raid to get gear that will replaced next patch because guess what, we will have 210 from the island and we will be able to upgrade our ESO to 210 with the new 24 man raid. so what's left? glamour? but wait I already have it :)

so my only motivation to do savage is a small chance to get a flying mount? is that all the reason I will spend my time, patient, dedication and money? a flying mount?

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You won't be able to upgrade armor and weapon for quite some time and the island thingy is much rng based irrc

Your motivation for doing Savage should be CHALLENGE. If you think this isn't enough, sorry boy, but that's the sole reason Savage is there.

Countdown for the shut down of this thread...um, I'll let the powers that be decide../shrug

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

COILS and the story behind it + gear was what motivates me to push me and my group every day to overcome this hard challenges and IT WAS SATISFAYING .

there was nothing better to look up that incredible CS of LUIXOIS vs BAHAMUT after t12 or revealing all the ending and what was behind everything at the end of T13 hell even seen bahamut behind the first coil was amazing.

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Couldnt agree more! The funny thing is that to me Coil story was more MAIN STORY than main scenario itself, after all in ARR opening you saw Bahamut destorying everything and i was like "im so gonna kill that mofo" and as an tank doing T13 was so awsome, tanking a world destroyer while yelling "come at me bro!! show me what you got!" nothing can get more epic than that tbh.

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Originally Posted by Taei

Sorry to ruin your perception, but most statics are not groups of friends

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I think he means that your static members will overtime become your friends, i didnt know any of them IRL but after 2 years of overcoming all kinds of hardships be it in form of raid difficulty/drama i would like to call them friends now, hell i would actually go as far and call them a family.

Here's my view.

If a piece of content requires you to put multiple sources of exclusive content to populate it, and still does not populate enough. Then it's time to review the content itself.

There is nothing wrong with Alexander Normal. Alexander Savage is tuned too high for the majority of the players in this game to enjoy.

In my opinion, that means Savage shouldn't exist, not in the state that it does anyhow. It's not about the rewards, but the content itself. People just don't have the time nor the desire to gather 8 people together once to twice a week to beat their heads on difficult content - the rewards are irrelevant. Forcing them to in order to enjoy story, will just hurt our subscription base in the wider portion.

I have ideas on how to retrofit the content to be challenging, enjoyable, and still competitive without the insane level of difficulty we currently have. But I'm not sure such a view is welcome here.

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

before you start reading: Since I realized with this threat that people can read but not understand what they are reading at the same time here is a few things before anyone decides to go all out without understanding this thread This is not about gating Story to anyone nor is to eliminate NM or something alike. It is about making SAVAGE desirable.

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Take into consideration the title of your thread. "NO MORE ALEXANDER(NM)!" would imply that you don't want it to exist anymore. One thing to point out is your rant about the gear. It seems some people were confused as to what you exactly you're referring to when you say the gear is exactly the same. I admit at first, I was too. When you say "exactly the same," it implies that every aspect of what you are talking about is the same. The stats are a substantial difference between the gear. Although, I do understand the frustration with how the gear looks the same as the normal mode. It's just that specific information would help with better understanding.

In terms of reading comprehension, I wouldn't point out how people aren't able to understand what they read when the material is poorly written. Not to mention the above statement about about stating specific information.

Also, an alternative CS would ruin the story if they did that for savage. That would further gate the story from others that don't do savage and mess with the continuity of further parts of the raid. Extended CS may work, but again the whole point of this normal thing is to fully get people emersed in the story of this raid. Something many players couldn't do with coil, which has a great story.

Either way, I agree that with how they did this whole normal and savage thing with Alexander, it's gotten a lot of people uninterested and bored. The fights are scripted the same and just have higher DPS checks, the gear looks exactly the same which could make them less desirable to obtain.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Here's my view.

If a piece of content requires you to put multiple sources of exclusive content to populate it, and still does not populate enough. Then it's time to review the content itself.

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Sure, Let's take the gear you get from void ark and make it a dyeable set of gubral library gear. And see how people feel about that. LOL the only reason you don't care is because you weren't planning on doing the content regardless.

Let people do void ark "for fun" and see if it isn't as empty as Crystal Tower is right now.

I guess at the end of the day, a lot of people that enjoyed the coil level of difficulty got screwed. Alex normal should be close to coil's level of difficulty not crystal tower. And savage is fine as an extra challenge/mythic mode. At the very lest Yoshi could have put in a mode that was on par with what coil was, a kind of heroic mode or what have you.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

Sure, Let's take the gear you get from void ark and make it a dyeable set of gubral library gear. And see how people feel about that. LOL the only reason you don't care is because you weren't planning on doing the content regardless.

Let people do void ark "for fun" and see if it isn't as empty as Crystal Tower is right now.

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You, I like the way you think. Nicely done.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

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Nice assumption. Except it's wrong in my case.

I fully plan on doing savage, for the challenge. But I am waiting on a friend to actually get to the point where they can challenge it before I try to build a static.

If it was up to me, ilvl would stop at 200. It would take half as much effort to obtain ilvl200 gear as it does now, and Savage would be some form of Arcade where your performances are worth points for bragging rights and currency towards glamours, mounts, items and maybe even new attack animations/particle effects unique to the content.

That would actually make the content fun, and you'd still be challenged to perfect your performance.

If they put in a unique mount and upgrade tokens, I say bring it.
I happen to like the gubal gear :p

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Nice assumption. Except it's wrong in my case.

I fully plan on doing savage, for the challenge. But I am waiting on a friend to actually get to the point where they can challenge it before I try to build a static.

If it was up to me, ilvl would stop at 200. It would take half as much effort to obtain ilvl200 gear as it does now, and Savage would be some form of Arcade where your performances are worth points for bragging rights and currency towards glamours, mounts, items and maybe even new attack animations/particle effects unique to the content.

That would actually make the content fun, and you'd still be challenged to perfect your performance.

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Ya maybe it was wrong to assume that about you personally, but for the community as a whole i feel the comment holds up. But they already did that with Coil savage. Put it in for max lvl 110 players to get titles and bragging rights. And very few people wanted to do it. Even less then Alex savage now. which is less than original coil's participation rate.

EDIT: Believe it or not, not all of us are trying to stroke our epeen or w/e it is people say. People just natrually go down the path of least resistance. It's up to the devs to make that path fun and exciting and not a snoozefest like Alex Normal is. Does easy content belong in the game? Absolutely. Does every single piece of content need to be super easy? I don't think it does.

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Originally Posted by hagare

If they put in a unique mount and upgrade tokens, I say bring it.
I happen to like the gubal gear :p

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If it fits with the theme. Sure. Problem is Void Ark doesn't fit with the theme. But if they came out with a "Savage Gubu Library" that only dropped dyable versions of that piece's content. I'd do it, if the content wasn't absurdly difficult.

Or if they added another difficulty tier to Void Ark, which was slightly harder (Read, more mechanics, not this Gearcheck BS) for dyable versions of that gear, I'd be ok with it.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

Ya maybe it was wrong to assume that about you personally, but for the community as a whole i feel the comment holds up. But they already did that with Coil savage. Put it in for max lvl 110 players to get titles and bragging rights. And very few people wanted to do it. Even less then Alex savage now. which is less than original coil's participation rate.

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Again, it's not the rewards, it's the content. People don't like frustrating themselves.

And no, my idea is vastly different than the whole 'beat it once you get titles' thing. I'm talking leaderboards, and stylistic rewards along the lines of what we get out of Golden Saucer, except instead of just glamours for an Armory system that's already bloaded. I'm talking getting glamours for Limit Break effects, special spell animations and skill particial effects. Things that effect how your character appears in content in an impact way. Not just another piece of pretty gear.

Also I'd design difficulty differently. More mechanics, messing up mechanics punishes the point score. Doing well on mechanics and using teamwork boosts the score. Mess up too much and you fail, rather than slip up and make one mistake and there's almost no recovery at all.

I think I get the intent of this thread.

The idea is that Alexander (Story mode) should be released after Savage/Hard mode. Basically, making Alexander (Story) required for progression in Savage (Had to get to i190 before really attempting it - well, mostly i190 for our left side) really stagnated the progression of a lot of groups. If we could've gone from full i180 Law -> Alexander Savage (Being the cap as 200 similar to old progression), there would've been a lot more groups clearling week 1/2 and the balance would've been tighter, instead of being overtuned for what we went in with.

Not only that, people would've gotten to enjoy learnign mechanics in challenging raids instead of thinking "Oh so what's the twist on Alexander Normal on this one?" There's no real sense of exploration or discovery.

I won't agree to take out Alexander Story, but I think it should A) come later and B) Be less relevant in progression gearing.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

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Yes, it is the rewards. That 5% of the playerbase want to get the highest ilv equip, a mount, upgrade items AND they want it all to be exclusive until the content is left behind, even the story. Because filthy casuals don't need to experience the same content I do.

I hope they get used to it, because SQEX doesn't seem willing to let all the efforts the dev team put into creating that content go down the drain by gating it beyond extremely difficult fights that only a minor percentage of the playerbase will enjoy and acess.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

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With that I can completely agree. But they would complain anyway, because the normal mode having the Prototype set that is identical to the Savage gear and they would probably say that the Savage gear isn't exclusive anymore and there's no reason to do the content. The same complaints we are seeing now. And prepare yourself for other threads on the same matter but about VA and Airship Exploration.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

Does every single piece of content need to be super easy? I don't think it does.

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is every content super easy? I don't think it does.
we have savage for those who want a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

B) Be less relevant in progression gearing.

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you do have a choice in the form of eso gear, which is what savage is actually tuned for.
if you wanna progress faster though, you're gonna have to make sacrifices.
Like how people beat T13 with crafted gear before they get ilvl appropriate gear.

With all that said though, I actually don't mind if alex NM drops nothing.
I just do it for the story xD

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

I think I get the intent of this thread.

The idea is that Alexander (Story mode) should be released after Savage/Hard mode. Basically, making Alexander (Story) required for progression in Savage (Had to get to i190 before really attempting it - well, mostly i190 for our left side) really stagnated the progression of a lot of groups. If we could've gone from full i180 Law -> Alexander Savage (Being the cap as 200 similar to old progression), there would've been a lot more groups clearling week 1/2 and the balance would've been tighter, instead of being overtuned for what we went in with.

Not only that, people would've gotten to enjoy learnign mechanics in challenging raids instead of thinking "Oh so what's the twist on Alexander Normal on this one?" There's no real sense of exploration or discovery.

I won't agree to take out Alexander Story, but I think it should A) come later and B) Be less relevant in progression gearing.

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This is probably the wisest reply I have ever read in accordance to raiding.

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Originally Posted by hagare

you do have a choice in the form of eso gear, which is what savage is actually tuned for.

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Wrong.
The best is combination of both Alex NM and ESO gear.
Going full ESO wouldn't only delay people from entering Alex SM for months, but it would also be worse than combining ESO/Alex NM gear, especially for damage dealers.

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Originally Posted by hagare

With all that said though, I actually don't mind if alex NM drops nothing.
I just do it for the story xD

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How many times do you do Normal Mode for the story, though? There has to be incentives to go in there so people that aren't 100% up to date all the time can get in a few weeks later. Just look at CT now, I'm having to tell all new members in our FC to ignore CT until SE creates a roulette for it, because getting in is unrealistic.

Alexander Savage is for a challenge like WoW Mythic Raids.
The order of release in terms of difficulty mode in raids should be
Looking for Raid
Normal Mode
Heroic Mode
Mythic Mode

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

I won't agree to take out Alexander Story, but I think it should A) come later and B) Be less relevant in progression gearing.

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It's already less relevant though. ilvl 190 is lower than we're getting through Void Ark. Any worse and it'd be the equivilant of upgraded base currency gear. I think that's fine where it's at.

We're going the wrong way when it comes to ideas of incentivizing content. Gear Progression should end before hardcore accomplishment begins. If we're going to have 'hard' content, then it shoulden't be something you just wait four weeks to get the best set to dominate with. It should be skill based.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Wrong.
The best is combination of both Alex NM and ESO gear.
Going full ESO wouldn't only delay people from entering Alex SM for months, but it would also be worse than combining ESO/Alex NM gear, especially for damage dealers.

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of course the best would be a combination.
but you could still do it with full eso, after all eso is higher ilvl and has more main stat.
and that is the choice you have to make.

it's like what yoshida said about healer DPS. Content done with appropriate ilvl does not take into account healer DPS, but if you wanna do it faster with lower ilvl, you're gonna have to push harder and include healer DPS.

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Originally Posted by Moonleg

How many times do you do Normal Mode for the story, though? There has to be incentives to go in there so people that aren't 100% up to date all the time can get in a few weeks later. Just look at CT now, I'm having to tell all new members in our FC to ignore CT until SE creates a roulette for it, because getting in is unrealistic.

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once lols. Except if I'm helping someone else clear it. xD

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

We're going the wrong way when it comes to ideas of incentivizing content. Gear Progression should end before hardcore accomplishment begins. If we're going to have 'hard' content, then it shoulden't be something you just wait four weeks to get the best set to dominate with. It should be skill based.

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true. The best solution would be if they added Alex NM, Alex HM, and Alex SM.
NM will be like what we have, HM would be coil tier with drops from current savage mode, and SM will be like coil savage with titles and the mount drop.

Honestly, "Raid Gear" is kinda redundant in general, so no. We're already suffering from gear bloat, so we should be thinking rewards outside gear progression for difficult content.

The one thing I agree with hardcore player is, the rewards they push hard to get are so easily replaced in just the next even patch decibel. The reason is of course, they have to keep stat progression within a reasonable catch-up distance or they lose their casual base.

Honestly I think they're going the wrong way about it. Instead of rewarding them with stats, reward them with unique effects. "True Thrust of the Dreadwyrm" As an example. Or, imagine doing a PLD Limit Break where he summons an Alexander-style Wall for defense rather than the usual. Also things that could benefit a FC would also be good incentives.

I don't see how releasing SM first and NM later makes any difference. This sounds like an excuse because even if NM wasn't released, you would've had to fight SM in i170/i180 gear with weekly i200 gear. NM is not to blame because many chose the casual route and not the hardcore route.

So the gear looks the same, does it matter if you had the stats you want? I'll give ya this one but everything else I don't agree with except mechanics. Mechanics I though would be completely different but SE kinda chicken out on that one.

What this essentially boils down to is the people doing savage mode want recognition for beating the hardest content. Which I don't have a problem with, titles or second gear sets could be a solution as long as normal mode gear doesn't suffer and end up looking like regurgitated subligar.

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Originally Posted by Kalam

What this essentially boils down to is the people doing savage mode want recognition for beating the hardest content. Which I don't have a problem with, titles or second gear sets could be a solution as long as normal mode gear doesn't suffer and end up looking like regurgitated subligar.

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This is exactly what happened with the recent WoW expansion, they listened to the hardcore, ruined whatever LFR has left and focused so much on raid content to appeal to the hardcore that they forgot about the rest of the game. The raiding was top notch in WoD, but everything else was pathetic.

Here's a gear comparison.

LFR (aka FFXIV's Normal):

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8lqyGnm4hL...late%2BLFR.jpg

Normal & Heroic(different colorations iirc):
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uq823LySsE...adin%2BT17.jpg

There's a lot of reasons WoD lost over half of WoW's population, and that's one of them (several threads on their forums with the OP receiving severeal hundred votes to bring back normal sets into LFR.

This is how it was in MoP (LFR, and the rest. Can't remember the pre-WoD naming schemes for difficulties).

http://images.v-media.eu/vanioneu/tier16_paladin.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Colorful

LFR (aka FFXIV's Normal):

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8lqyGnm4hL...late%2BLFR.jpg

Normal & Heroic(different colorations iirc):
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uq823LySsE...adin%2BT17.jpg

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This is actually something that makes content viable glamour-wise though.
Being able to dye something that is already in game kinda doesn't appeal to me, especially when the original color suits it the best. But that's just mine opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

This is actually something that makes content viable glamour-wise though.
Being able to dye something that is already in game kinda doesn't appeal to me, especially when the original color suits it the best. But that's just mine opinion.

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I suppose, but I know for sure that I'm not interested in gear that looks someone vomited onto a paper and then submitted it to Yoshida as the final design cough Ninja Gordian gear colour cough. If they made the sets look on par but just visually different I think no one would object, but personally if they were going to go to such lengths I'd rather they spent that development time on giving each class their own set of armour similar to WoW's tier sets... wouldn't you? It sure would be nice getting Gordian gear that actually fits with your Job's theme.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

What does the fact that the new true raid offers no new lore, no new glamour and almost no new mechanics to do with e-peen?

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Because Coil was reserved for a select group of people. Said people got content all to themselves and are not happy to see that others get to see similar content now. That's still very much e-peen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

I don't see how releasing SM first and NM later makes any difference. This sounds like an excuse because even if NM wasn't released, you would've had to fight SM in i170/i180 gear with weekly i200 gear. NM is not to blame because many chose the casual route and not the hardcore route.

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The problem here was that people who wanted to do savage, had to also do normal to get gear. They had to do normal an obnoxious number of times to get gear.
Removing normal from the itemization to start Savage would alleviate the fatigue that a lot of savage raiders complained about. Releasing Normal after savage, and adjusting the iLevel design accordingly, would have helped.
As it was, Savage was released after Normal, and the only reason I had to complain was that I had to do normal a bunch before even attempting savage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Because Coil was reserved for a select group of people. Said people got content all to themselves and are not happy to see that others get to see similar content now. That's still very much e-peen.

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Way to stereotype, buddy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

I don't see how releasing SM first and NM later makes any difference. This sounds like an excuse because even if NM wasn't released, you would've had to fight SM in i170/i180 gear with weekly i200 gear. NM is not to blame because many chose the casual route and not the hardcore route.

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It matters because in order to even do Savage you had to spend two weeks or more grinding Normal, back when it only dropped 2 loot pieces per run. This both helped induce burn out and make Savage seem less interesting from the start.