More Horizontal Progression please

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Even if SE bent to your whims, the bean-counter forum would still make sure everyone had to have one optimum set of gear or get put on the "Do Not Play" list.

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So 2% of the party finder groups would be dicks about BiS gear? That's pretty much where we are now.

It won't exist in DF, it won't exist in FCs/LSs, and most "elitists" run with a static.

Yeah, no one except the best of the best cares what you wear barring it meet the minimum. I don't care if you got Eso, Alex Savage, or Alex Normal as long as it isn't causing us to wipe. The BIS wouldn't work either because if you truly wanted BIS, you'd have to have a plethora of armors, vs finding a good negative in some and positive in others to make a more "omnicontent" (if we steal crafter's role) build.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Yeah, no one except the best of the best cares what you wear barring it meet the minimum. I don't care if you got Eso, Alex Savage, or Alex Normal as long as it isn't causing us to wipe. The BIS wouldn't work either because if you truly wanted BIS, you'd have to have a plethora of armors, vs finding a good negative in some and positive in others to make a more "omnicontent" (if we steal crafter's role) build.

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Trust me, the first time there's a wipe to something, the person that was supposed to do something but didn't will have their gear picked apart immediately regardless of if its the problem or not.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

That isn't Horizontal Progression. That is forced Vertical Progression. There is no other choice if one choice is 100% better.

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Vertical progression is when you can replace one item with another, in all situations. Horizontal progression is when an item can replace your existing item in some cases, but not other cases (like LineageRazor described).

Even in horizontal progression, there's still going to be a superior option in any given situation, unless the trade off is something like survivability vs. throughput (which is one of the very few choices that actually does already exist in FFXIV).

Unless you have some other definition of horizontal progression.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Even in horizontal progression, there's still going to be a superior option in any given situation, unless the trade off is something like survivability vs. throughput (which is one of the very few choices that actually does already exist in FFXIV).

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I've argued this with Nektulos again and again and again.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Vertical progression is when you can replace one item with another, in all situations. Horizontal progression is an item can replace your existing item in some cases, but not other cases (like LineageRazor described).

Even in horizontal progression, there's still going to be a superior option in any given situation, unless the trade off is something like survivability vs. throughput (which is one of the very few choices that actually does already exist in FFXIV).

Unless you have some other definition of horizontal progression.

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Horizontal only truly works when the system realistically allows it. XI, for example, had appropriate horizontal progression, though in many cases it really was either a one go-to or macro'ing 2 different pieces for everything. It had in-combat gear switching, which is impossible here with the current system... that's a HUGE reason why horizontal gearing works. They can be used at any given moment whenever you see fit. If such a thing existed in XIV, the potential would be far more appropriate.

By example of where we are now, people will NOT bother with something that slightly gives you better potential output if it means lowering your ACC and risking misses throughout an entire fight if they can't switch their gear mid-fight. This means that it's a pointless addition to add in substitute pieces. In order for a need to change things to do that, there has to be substantial reason to allow it, meaning different stats will have to function differently than they do now. If you think the gear bloat is bad now, horizontal progression is significantly worse. For non casters, building TP meant adding in equips with Accuracy+, Dual Wield+, Double Attack+, etc, depending on what job and the other stats involved. To be honest, there is a form of horizontal progression already in XIV, but it's not based on BiS... it's based on getting there. Think progression gear when it came to Coils, people having to buy crafted combat gear to meld them with materia where it may be needed (ACC, VIT, etc). A situational equip, exactly as horizontal progression works. The process as a result, is not much different than the horizontal progression you refer to. It just falls short once you hit BiS, which is essentially what happens even in horizontal progression. Unless it goes to the extreme and requires dozens/hundreds of equips for a single class/job to perform in a BiS manner for every little task possible.

Note: I forgot about the destructive feature that is "ilvl". Wow did that concept destroy horizontal progression and promote a "must have X" mentality.

Horizontal gear progression as I understand it as described by this thread involves carrying around a lot of gear set on you. That sounds really unappealing to me.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I've argued this with Nektulos again and again and again.

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And survivability vs throughput only exists for tanks. And survivability is only considered when you're at or below min gear.

As a side note, item level has always existed even in the first games.

All item level is, is a number relating to how many "points" is available for stat allocation.

Item level 170 gear has less overall itemization points than i200. And i115 has more than i110. Etc.

Until recently, this number was deliberately hidden from players, but then the wow add-on GearScore came about. This add-on gave items a value based on its itemization. X stat was worth A, Y was worth B, etc.

It led to arbitrary discrimination based on equipment, and rather than relying on an add-on, Blizzard just started displaying the items' ilevel.

Content has a level of gear its designed around, designers have an expectation for your equipment before you can reasonably expect to clear. Also not new.

Great way to kill the growth of the game. Large majority of MMOs have an upgrade system to keep players coming back. FF11 may have had you coming back to the same dungeon, but it's not a popular method as a whole. Look at other games and come back here to say vertical progression is a great way to sustain a few million players long term.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I've argued this with Nektulos again and again and again.

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It's bad for your sanity.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

And survivability vs throughput only exists for tanks. And survivability is only considered when you're at or below min gear.

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Currently, yes, although there were DPS and healers melding accessories (or wearing a vit accessory or two) to hit HP thresholds for T13 progression, especially if the group didn't have a monk for the Dragon Kick debuff.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

And survivability vs throughput only exists for tanks.

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this is not true? the entire group had to be able to survive Nerve Gas to clear T11.

T5 i think also had that issue when people didn't have enough HP to do 3 stacks on fireballs.

From my FFXI campaign (2003-2010) and casual story grinding here and there, I can easily say that end game was not only some of the most fun I had in MMO's, it was also the most frustrating. Never before had I raged so hard at a game because I do weeks among weeks to months to years to get one piece of gear through content our LS either had to fight RMT, botters, and other legit competitive players. I -never- got my Askar body piece from Nyzul Isle and it still makes me sad to this day. I easily got to the 80th-100th floor of that dungeon at least 20+ times to never see it drop, not even attempt to lot against someone on it. Wait months to see an item finally drop in Dynamis just for someone to beat you in a lot.

I have a hard time believing the audience of this game would be in favor of horizontal since it is the same people who complain that they are bored doing the same content over and over again and we get new content every 3-4 months. Both Horizontal and Vertical have their advantages/disadvantages, but from SE's perspective, which method is going to bring the most people in and keep them there? Vertical is the likely answer.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Vertical progression is when you can replace one item with another, in all situations. Horizontal progression is when an item can replace your existing item in some cases, but not other cases (like LineageRazor described).

Even in horizontal progression, there's still going to be a superior option in any given situation, unless the trade off is something like survivability vs. throughput (which is one of the very few choices that actually does already exist in FFXIV).

Unless you have some other definition of horizontal progression.

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No, that is not "Horizontal" progression, that is actually vertical progression.

That is like critical mitigation. Don't have enough? Can't beat the boss.
That is like accuracy. Don't have enough? Can't hit or beat the boss.

Horizontal Progression means you have many ways to use different pieces of gear and strats to do the same thing. Whilst there may be one that is a bit better then others in certain situations they are all VERY good.

Your idea of this is called "Homogenizing Stats." its a false choice. In a system like that, there is no horizontal progression because its not, its actually vertical.

In your system you have 2 pieces of armor.

One has Ice Resist, One has Fire resist. Your going to fight a boss which clearly does fire damage. You are homogenized to using the fire resist set. That is Homogenizing and that is not horizontal progression, that is actually vertical because you only have one choice.

It would be like picking between ilvl100 and ilvl200 gear. Why would you fight a boss with ilvl100 gear when ilvl200 gear is clearly better?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

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Ibi's explanation is exactly what horizontal progression is. Yours makes less sense and don't even know what you are trying to argue.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Ibi's explanation is exactly what horizontal progression is. Yours makes less sense and don't even know what you are trying to argue.

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In which game?

What your saying is basicly the same as this:

All DPS Classes do 1000 DPS.
Except Blackmage, who does 3000 DPS.

Now everyone must roll Black Mage for DPS, there is no choice.

That is not Horizontal Progression, and your friend's explanation is silly. It sounds like they don't play many games.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

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Not the way I read it. You might want to double check before continuing your argument.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

One has Ice Resist, One has Fire resist. Your going to fight a boss which clearly does fire damage. You are homogenized to using the fire resist set. That is Homogenizing and that is not horizontal progression, that is actually vertical because you only have one choice.

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if the next fight inline requires the Ice piece, that's horizontal. vertical and horizontal is not directly related to homogenization. you're trying to conflate two different issues. having BiS for a single fight doesn't make something not horizontal.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Horizontal Progression means you have many ways to use different pieces of gear and strats to do the same thing. Whilst there may be one that is a bit better then others in certain situations they are all VERY good.

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Just to clarify, you're saying that under your concept of Horizontal Progression, every alternative is completely viable in all situations, but any particular item may have a slight advantage in certain situations. Is that correct?

Would you be able to quantify at what point that slight advantage becomes too much and now that piece of gear is necessary for that certain scenario? Is that a 1% advantage? 5%? 10%? Once an item goes beyond that margin, is it now vertical progression? And is it vertical progression just for that particular slot, and horizontal progression in other slots if they're still below that margin?

Are threads like this ever going to get a dev response? Remember when we used to get replies on things that matter in the game instead of test errors and glamours? :(

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Just to clarify, you're saying that under your concept of Horizontal Progression, every alternative is completely viable in all situations, but any particular item may have a slight advantage in certain situations. Is that correct?

Would you be able to quantify at what point that slight advantage becomes too much and now that piece of gear is necessary for that certain scenario? Is that a 1% advantage? 5%? 10%? Once an item goes beyond that margin, is it now vertical progression? And is it vertical progression just for that particular slot, and horizontal progression in other slots if they're still below that margin?

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If the item improves your character by 10%, and one improves it by 11-13% in certain situations its still a 11-12% update to that encounter. The procs in EQ for example were very powerful but there was enough choice that one wasn't "too" powerful over another in the same situation, but they all gave your character a great deal of power. It was just choice.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Not the way I read it. You might want to double check before continuing your argument.

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I see you ignored my question asking which game was this.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

if the next fight inline requires the Ice piece, that's horizontal. vertical and horizontal is not directly related to homogenization. you're trying to conflate two different issues. having BiS for a single fight doesn't make something not horizontal.

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Actually, that is vertical. Vertical means there is one best choice. Its a straight upgrade to a fight and an encounter. There is only one real choice if your fighting an ice creature you need ice armor. If your wearing fire armor you have no ice resist so you get melted. There is no other choice for you. That is bad. That is homogenizing and exactly what vertical progression does, there is no difference.

In a Horizontal System: There is no "Ice Resist" or "Fire Resist" or "Accuracy" or "Critical Mitigation".

Instead of Ice Resist there is "Magic Resistance.". Higher "Magic Resistance" helps against both things. However, one piece has a little more "Magic Resistance" then the other. The one that has less armor has more DPS. However, there are many variants. However, you can still do the boss in any piece of armor. That is play-style choice.

Instead of "Resists and such" there are procs and effects. Each effect is "good" however there is no best effect. You choose the effect based on your own playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

FFXI's model isn't perfect, as others have pointed out, yet FFXI's model is much better at maintaining a symbiotic relationship between expansion material than WoW's model. WoW broke its old content beyond repair, yet FFXI's content has remained far less damaged by time. While Path of Exile is a slightly different genre, it's recent expansion, PoE:Awakening, follows a design philosophy that is far more benign than the philosophy used to produce Heavensward. I think they could learn a thing or two from how GGG chose to do their expansion.

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I really don't think FFXIV and WoW can be compared as far as time goes. WoW is 10 years old, FFXIV 2 years i think. Already ive read forums and people complaining that content (including me in some various opinions) that old content is well old already. That we want things fixed from what they are. Then we have people saying no way we don't want to re run old content leave it be. WoW has had plenty of time to break their old content, while FFXIV is already showing signs of "Old content is Bleh". Just my opinion on what i read on the fourms.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Instead of Ice Resist there is "Magic Resistance.". Higher "Magic Resistance" helps against both things. However, one piece has a little more "Magic Resistance" then the other. The one that has less armor has more DPS. However, there are many variants. However, you can still do the boss in any piece of armor. That is play-style choice.

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you're just wrong. a little more magic resistance in a magic damage heavy fight means the piece with magic resistance piece is much more important.

again, you're talking about two different things and you are wrong to combine them into one.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

you're just wrong. a little more magic resistance in a magic damage heavy fight means the piece with magic resistance piece is much more important.

again, you're talking about two different things and you are wrong to combine them into one.

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That depends. What if the other piece has a ward proc on it that makes up for having less magic resistance?

I can now tell you've never played a real horizontal progression game.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

Are threads like this ever going to get a dev response? Remember when we used to get replies on things that matter in the game instead of test errors and glamours? :(

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nope we have no rapport with se at all sadly.

they do not reply, suggestions are NOT forwarded, in game suggestions is as bad as talking to oneself.
when the game does dwindle..(and it will) it will not be from lack of us trying...but from no interaction from them.

i hope i am wrong, it has such potential but so far im not impressed by the developers nor CM input at all.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Just to clarify, you're saying that under your concept of Horizontal Progression, every alternative is completely viable in all situations, but any particular item may have a slight advantage in certain situations. Is that correct?

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Vertical progression means you replace every piece of gear periodically (every other major patch in FFXIV). Horizontal means old gear remains viable in new content, and can be replaced by new gear.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

That depends. What if the other piece has a ward proc on it that makes up for having less magic resistance?

I can now tell you've never played a real horizontal progression game.

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so it has a ward to make up for less magic resistance and has more DPS? why would anyone use the piece that has lower DPS and just magic resistance?

there's no "real" horizontal progression game, there are many different ways to do horizontal progression. you're stuck on horizontal means absolutely no BiS which is not true.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Vertical progression means you replace every piece of gear periodically (every other major patch in FFXIV). Horizontal means old gear remains viable in new content, and can be replaced by new gear.

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Like a piece of Jewelry with a valuable effect. Even with less stats its effect is still powerful enough to keep.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

so it has a ward to make up for less magic resistance and has more DPS? why would anyone use the piece that has lower DPS and just magic resistance?

there's no "real" horizontal progression game, there are many different ways to do horizontal progression. you're stuck on horizontal means absolutely no BiS which is not true.

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Maybe that is their play-style. Maybe they would rather absorb the damage straight up instead of relying on a proc to do it for you. Maybe they want a offensive proc effect instead of a defensive one. There are many reasons. Have you played Diablo before? Everquest? Everquest 2?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Vertical progression means you replace every piece of gear periodically (every other major patch in FFXIV). Horizontal means old gear remains viable in new content, and can be replaced by new gear.

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I'm trying to get Nektulos-Tuor to explain his definition of it, since he's only providing very nebulous, sometimes contradictory statements, like:

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

If the item improves your character by 10%, and one improves it by 11-13% in certain situations its still a 11-12% update to that encounter. The procs in EQ for example were very powerful but there was enough choice that one wasn't "too" powerful over another in the same situation, but they all gave your character a great deal of power.

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versus

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Vertical means there is one best choice.

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According to the first quote, one best choice was horizontal, as long as it "wasn't too powerful over another in the same situation". According to the second quote, from the same post, one best choice was vertical.

I was hoping he could quantify where the line for "too powerful" is.

Nektulos-Tuor:

If, on fight 1, item A is +1%, item B is +3%, and item C is +2%, but on fight 2, item A is +7%, item B is +3%, and item C is +4%, I assume you'd say that's horizontal.

If everything else was kept the same, but on fight 1, item A was +40%, and on fight 2, item B was +50%, I assume you'd say that's vertical? (Even though everyone else seems to agree that's still horizontal.)

How about if on fight 1, item A was +10%, and on fight 2, item B was +12%? Or 18% and 14%? At what point does the switch flip that makes it go from horizontal to vertical, in your definitions?

I guess I'm a bit confused by this thread. I played XI for a good long time and at cap you still were required to have a set piece to be capable of entering certain content. Most of those pieces were either extremely pricey or were a rare drop that required vast amounts of time and effort to get unless you were extremely lucky ( looking at you kote... looking at you...). At 75 cap ( before the game got really broken) if you could wear it then you wore haubergeon, byakko's haidate, Sniper's rings +1 etc. Tanks wanted jelly ring etc....

So even with horizontal gearing, everyone still wore the same thing as everyone else. The only difference being that it took so much time to grind to that point that it seemed like you didn't always need it. Make no mistake though, if you wanted in endgame content in a good linkshell that had a history of clears then you were required to enter into it with a certain amount of acc and other stats.

At the very least, I believe the 3.0 story duties should drop Law tomes for 60s running them, helps the ppl leveling alts get their queues faster. I'm lvling mch because Warrior pvp is too easy now ;) (or harder since everyone is catching on) and I feel bad for asking my FC mates to queue with me when they don't get anything out of it(ex. even AV drops tomes and it was lvl 47)

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Originally Posted by Ibi

I'm trying to get Nektulos-Tuor to explain his definition of it, since he's only providing very nebulous, sometimes contradictory statements, like:


versus


According to the first quote, one best choice was horizontal, as long as it "wasn't too powerful over another in the same situation". According to the second quote, from the same post, one best choice was vertical.

I was hoping he could quantify where the line for "too powerful" is.

Nektulos-Tuor:

If, on fight 1, item A is +1%, item B is +3%, and item C is +2%, but on fight 2, item A is +7%, item B is +3%, and item C is +4%, I assume you'd say that's horizontal.

If everything else was kept the same, but on fight 1, item A was +40%, and on fight 2, item B was +50%, I assume you'd say that's vertical? (Even though everyone else seems to agree that's still horizontal.)

How about if on fight 1, item A was +10%, and on fight 2, item B was +12%? Or 18% and 14%? At what point does the switch flip that makes it go from horizontal to vertical, in your definitions?

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Vertical means, there is only one best choice. Would you take an item that has 100 strength, or an item that has 50 strength? Duh, you would take the one that has 100 strength.

Your fighting an ice monster. Take one that has 50 ice resist, or 100 ice resist? Duh, you would take the one that has 100 ice resistance!.

There is no difference in that. However there is a difference in these.


Say an item has instead...

"12% chance on hit to ward (prevent damage) to your health for 1000 for 10 seconds."

Vs

"12% chance on hit to heal yourself for 1300."

Vs

"12% chance on hit to heal yourself for 750 and deal 750 damage."

They are all good choices. Some might be better in some fights. However they are ALL GOOD for every fight! That is true horizontal progression.

For example, picking a DPS class and choosing which one you want is an example this game has of good horizontal choice, you pick the class that suits you, there is no one class that is better for certain fights they are just different.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

However there is a difference in these.

Say an item has instead...

"12% chance on hit to ward (prevent damage) to your health for 1000 for 10 seconds."

Vs

"12% chance on hit to heal yourself for 1300."

Vs

"12% chance on hit to heal yourself for 750 and deal 750 damage."

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Option 3 is clearly the superior choice for a DPS in every situation, since it's the only one that allows you to increase your damage dealt (which is the function of DPS). By your definition, this is vertical progression.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

For example, picking a DPS class and choosing which one you want is an example this game has of good horizontal choice, you pick the class that suits you, there is no one class that is better for certain fights they are just different.

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wrong again. SMN is best for fights with a lot of mobs because they have the best AOE. MNK is best when the fight has little to no breaks so they never lose GL. support DPS are the worse when you don't need the support. WAR is the best tank when you have tight DPS checks. SCH was the best at single tank Ramuh EX, WHM was the best at cheesing Turn 2 enrage. some classes are situationally better than others though most of the time it's not immediately noticeable.

as long as 1 thing is not always best in every situation, you can have horizontal progression. stop pretending the world is black and white.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Option 3 is clearly the superior choice for a DPS in every situation, since it's the only one that allows you to increase your damage dealt (which is the function of DPS). By your definition, this is vertical progression.

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Yes, but Option 2 offers more healing. Which may save you in certain fights more. You have to give up that damage for more healing, or give up healing for more damage. Its your choice, but both are viable in every fight.

Or, offer 4.

12% chance on hit to deal 1200 damage.

vs

12% chance on hit to deal 1600 damage, but takes 650 life every proc.

Now you have no healing, for more damage then the healing and damage one.

Now you have another one that does even MORE damage. At the cost of life.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Yes, but Option 2 offers more healing. Which may save you in certain fights more. You have to give up that damage for more healing, or give up healing for more damage. Its your choice, but both are viable in every fight.

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it's not your choice if they tune fights to have heal/DPS checks.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

it's not your choice if they tune fights to have heal/DPS checks.

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Since you don't read. I was awnsering someone else's question that wasn't about FFXIV but Horizontal Progression in general. Don't butt into a conversation if you don't understand it.

Also, are you ever going to awnser my question? Or avoid it? Which game has this magical horizontal progression you speak of?

Please awnser with FFXI.

I'm not quite sure if "horizontal progression" is what I'm looking for, but it'd be nice to have gear to chase that isn't gated behind weekly tome caps or weekly raid lockouts. Even if the combatant was RNG rather than a lockout, it at least would give players with more time on their hands something to do. Something to work towards with their oodles of free time when the raiding is done and they've already gotten their Alex drops and hit Eso cap.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

it's not your choice if they tune fights to have heal/DPS checks.

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Yet if everyone had gear choice like above there would be situations where one item is better in a situation yet all are viable.