Coincidentally, I've come up with half your fixes on my own and been thinking about them since DRK and Dark Dance came into play, but sadly they're mostly technical game system changes. As such I don't have hope they'll ever be fixed, which is just sad. For reference, I mean really stupidly obvious things that are ridiculous for having not been implemented from the start like:
-Every single incoming attack on a player should be parryable/blockable from every single side but the rear (Not exactly what you said, I know)
-Every single enemy should be Blindable and almost every targeted attack should be able to miss/be dodged, starting at a 0% floor (Obviously one-off, powerful attacks have to 100% hit or survival would feel too random)
-Only weaponskills part of combos, and nothing else, should ever break a combo (For tanks only)
-Abilities should always be affected by healing modifiers (I'd even be okay with Mantra+Second Wind on a Monk, the recast times are more than prohibitive enough)
The rest of what you said is more about game design than game systems, so I won't bother going into that but to say that I agree with all of it wholeheartedly except one thing. I respectfully disagree that Oaths/Grit should be on the GCD. Even if they were affected by Skill Speed and didn't break combos, it shouldn't feel like an awkwardly punishing thing to switch to or from tanking as a PLD/DRK. In fact, in my opinion it's a completely stupid and archaic thing for "tank stances" to even directly reduce damage at all. They should simply limit damage output through other methods. However, that's another topic. :P
Tank adjustments we can agree on?
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10-05-2015, 10:26 PMTeiren
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10-05-2015, 10:42 PMExodus_KenpachiUnless SE buffs Defiance to heal the 20% HP upon activation, you will not see Shield Oath/Grit coming off the GCD. 20% at will toggle-able mitigation would be extremely powerful given the scripted nature of FF14.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teiren
But I do aggre that the concept behind "tank stance" is stupid. IMO your emnity modifiers should be applied to your "tank stance" or the system that WAR has in which stance grants you access to defensive or offensive CDs. -
10-05-2015, 10:51 PMTeiren
I thought WAR had an unfair advantage with Defiance being an Ability instead of a Spell, but I don't have as much experience tanking as WAR, so I guess I'm not considering how much of a hit the missing 25% HP can be. I mean, Defiance still immediately grants +20% healing received, but true, you would be in a considerably more vulnerable state the moment you switch to Defiance compared to a theoretical PLD/DRK with an off-GCD Shield Oath/Grit. I see your point. I'm going to guess this is why WoW has Bear Form also instantly adjust your current HP at the same it increases max HP.
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10-05-2015, 11:15 PMFreyyyInner Beast says hi. You can prepare your 5 stacks in Deliverance, then switch to Defiance oGCD and instantly after use IB. It's totally 20% at will toggle-able mitigation. And it does damage + ignores the Defiance penalty, where the other tanks lose 1 damage GCD to activate their stance on top of breaking combos, costing MP, and not being affected by SS. That's a lot of downsides. Oh and, the WAR still gets the convo-like effect of Defiance instantly. So they at least get half of their tanking stance instantly. I think that the fact that Defiance doesn't heal for the max HP it grants is highly overrated as a "con" and people are using it way too much as an argument where it's not even the case really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
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10-05-2015, 11:37 PMExodus_KenpachiWait wait wait... Are you trying to imply that: Waiting 17 seconds to build stacks, blowing a CD, losing DPS by using said CD, and having the healing increase brought about by Defience justifies having an oGCD instant ability to mitigate 20% damage? LMFAO with your thought process I could argue that Shadow Skin + dropping Grit is just fine and that DrK does not (and it doesn't) need Grit to be oGCD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
Bro.....just ugh. Now I'm all for Sword Oath being oGCD... That really needs to happen. -
10-06-2015, 12:13 AMNFaelivrin
Not getting your max HP instantly on WAR when swapping to defiance could be considered a fair reason to not make other tank stances off-gcd if WAR wasn't the best tank in the entire game already by a huge margin.
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10-06-2015, 12:41 AMFreyyyShadowskin has a little bit more than 17 seconds CD. Your comparison is invalid. The DPS loss of using IB instead of a Fell Cleave is I believe inferior to the DPS loss of using a GCD not hitting at all. Plus, you have to switch only after finishing a combo, where WAR can do it at any time and it even converts stacks. Really. Just the fact of not getting instantly the HP that Defiance brings is not enough of a con compared to what the other stances have (breaking combos, being on GCD, costing MP, being tied to spell speed). If you absolutely don't want Grit/Oaths to be oGCD, please at least make them not break combos anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
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10-06-2015, 12:55 AMSpookyGhost
Sheltron and DA + DM are both usable in SwO/out of Grit. Just throwing that out there.
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10-06-2015, 01:00 AMeagledorfSkipping a FC for an IB means you lose (500*1.05)-300 so 225 potency, which is almost exactly what a PLD loses for one lost GCD assuming they didn't lose Goring Blade or have to cancel a combo (230). Of course PLD loses 2 GCD stance dancing...Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
That said, a WAR can swap in early to get topped off since Defiance has a 10s cooldown anyway and, as you point out, they can swap in whenever without worrying about their combos so the mechanics as they're currently designed still strongly favors WAR for stance-dancing. -
10-06-2015, 01:01 AMLaunchedSo what you're saying is WAR needs to use Defiance AND a GCD to get the full effect of their tank stance instantly? Guess it's no different from Shield Oath/Grit then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
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10-06-2015, 01:58 AMFreyyyNot at all. What I'm saying is that if a WAR puts Defiance ON too late to get topped off before receiving damage sufficiently high to make use of these max HP (basically a tank buster), they can instantly use IB which is litteraly on demand 20% mitigation + self-healing which helps also to survive the incoming attack. With experience on the fights, you can turn Defiance on early enough to be topped off by healers before the tank buster (which is the only reason to need more max HP). Other than max HP, what Defiance brings is the increase in healing magic received, which they instantly get. And the simple fact that Grit/Oaths are breaking combos and cost a resource (which is pretty important for DRK) makes Defiance take the advantage. Grit/Oaths dancing is clunky, De/liver/fi/ance stance dancing is smooth as fuck and absolutely orgasmic to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Launched
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10-06-2015, 09:20 AMTeiren
This is completely missing the point. Inner Beast is separate from the passive effects of Defiance that make it a tank stance. He and I were talking about the passive effects of each Job's tank stance, not the overall tanking ability of each Job.
Having only Sword Oath off-GCD is an interesting idea, and perhaps that's all that's needed so that it's like DRK. Related, I think that Grit costing MP, or at least as much as it does, is a little stupid. I still think no tank stance should be on the GCD as long as Defiance isn't because this is supposed to be a casual game at heart, and tank stances being on the GCD feels like a frustrating punishment. However, I do understand his point of view. -
10-06-2015, 10:09 AMFreyyyInner Beast is tied to Defiance. I think it's not missing the point at all. Considering that not having the HP granted by Defiance instantly healed is like not having the effects of the tanking stance is inaccurate, since increased max HP is only a piece of what Defiance brings. Defiance brings several things : access to Wrath abilities (hello IB), increased healing received, Equilibrium's healing part, and max HP, and all that, you get it instantly when toggling Defiance (you can even Defiance + Equilibrium instantly without clipping your GCD and immediatly IB after if you want). Max HP is only useful if you're topped off, and being topped off is eased by the increased healing + self-healing you get with IB and Equilibrium. Having more HP when topped off is only really useful against burst damage (tank busters), for constant damage only the convo-like effect of Defiance is really what makes you more tanky since VIT doesn't decrease the damage you take. Defiance is unique in its design, you cannot just consider the passive effect and outright compare it to Shield Oath or Grit. You have to take the whole thing with it since half of what Defiance brings is active effects (even the convo-like effect is "active" since it's kind of "triggered" everytime you receive a heal). IMO the max HP bonus from Defiance is even the least important part of it and what makes it a tank stance since it only really matters when you're about to eat a tank buster. And this is what makes WAR so different from PLD and DRK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teiren
With that said, having tank stances on the GCD is not really a penalty since they still have only 2.5 sec CD, so they're still pretty much toggle-able at will. It just makes it clunky, on top of it breaking combos, and costing MP (and Grit is awful with that since it costs almost a Dark Arts to activate). Making them oGCD would not make them more toggle-able at will (would even be the contrary since it would probably have the same 10sec CD that Defiance has), it would just make stance-dancing a more enjoyable experience. -
10-06-2015, 10:39 AMKinSlayer009
Lmao that's why you see warriors doing shitty dps. They are saving stacks so when the switch to defiance they can inner beast..... No good warrior will save 5 stacks so he can switch to defiance and inner beast that's a huge dps loss. You get 5 stacks you dell cleave end of story.
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10-06-2015, 10:48 AMFreyyyThen why is there even Defiance if you're never using your stacks for IB ? Seriously dude. What are you doing when there is let's say A1S's second Plasma coming with no Holmgang, you Fell Cleave and eat it in Deliverance ? No, you get to 5 stacks (you don't save them, you can simply make it so that when you get to 5 stacks you can instantly spend them for IB and take the tank buster), you make the switch to Defiance, you IB. And if it's not that, you can even switch to Defiance earlier and use your stacks for Unchained, then build them again before the tank buster. I never said that WARs should save their stacks to IB or what. I can show you the DPS I'm doing as a WAR anytime. It's just that when people argue that Defiance doesn't immediatly take effect, I don't agree because the max HP part of Defiance is not even the real reason for making the switch. It's mostly because you get all of your tanking capabilities at maximum when you need them, and IB is a really big part of that. I think you completely missed the point being discussed here. It's about switching to tanking stance and gaining its effect because you need it in a scripted raid encounter situation, not about tanking a dungeon boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by KinSlayer009
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10-06-2015, 11:42 AMKinSlayer009
Yes I don't ever put defiance up on A1S. For each tnk buster I use vengeance and thrill of battle. And that is it. Even on a3s only time i switch to defiance is when I pick up the tethers then back to deliverance.
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10-06-2015, 07:19 PMFreyyyYeah with gear it's made possible, but I highly doubt you were doing that back in the first weeks of progression. Tank busters have never been as weak as in this set of raids, I was using A1S as an example of current "tank buster" but what is being discussed here is mostly theoretical. People are speaking about the need of switching to tanking stance and having instantly its effects or not to compare Defiance being oGCD with Grit/Oaths being on the GCD but when you don't even need to put your tanking stance on most of the time it's kinda hard to speak about that and using current fights as examples. I was simply arguing that the fact of not having instantly the HP from Defiance doesn't mean that we don't instantly get its effects, we just don't instantly get a little part of its effects but the essential (which is Wrath and bonus healing received) is instantly here and just needs to be triggered, because, you know, WAR is the active mitigation tank. That's basic. People keep comparing passive mitigation from the other tanks with active mitigation from WAR like it was working in the same way where it clearly doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by KinSlayer009
And even if it was really the case, even if I accepted the argument of WARs don't having the HP from Defiance when switching was enough of a reason for the other stances to be on the GCD and break combos, I'll answer you this : a WAR can put Defiance on whenever he wants. It can be in between Maim and Storm's Eye if he wants, he can just put it on at any time and it doesn't break anything, it converts his stacks, and he can continue his combo without any downtime. Because of the fact that Grit/Oaths break combos on top of being on the GCD, DRK/PLD has to either put their tank stance earlier because they have to have it on before starting the next combo even if they don't need it instantly which results in a DPS loss from both the fact of losing the GCD from stance switching AND having the damage penalty for 2 more GCDs after, or wait for the current combo to be finished in order to put the stance on, then having it on 1-2 GCD later than what they ideally would want, resulting in even more time than a WAR would need to be topped off after toggling Defiance mid-combo. Basically, whenever you use Hard Slash/Fast Blade, you set up yourself in a situation where you can't switch to tanking stance before Delirium/Power Slash/Souleater/Rage Of Halone/Royal Authority/Goring Blade which happens several seconds later. And if you break your combo in order to switch to tanking stance, you lose even more DPS. Doing Hard Slash -> Grit -> Hard Slash -> Syphon Strike -> Delirium for example is even worse than doing Hard Slash -> Hard Slash -> Hard Slash -> Syphon Strike -> Delirium (which no-one does because it's useless and terrible, it's just an example to say how much it sucks), and you never want that to happen, that's why DRK and PLD have to pre-emptively take decisions to switch to tanking stance where a WAR would just not care and do Heavy Swing -> Maim -> Defiance + Unchained -> Storm's Eye or plenty of examples like that and still being on DPS stance during Heavy Swing and Maim. It's not just the GCD to activate the stance, it's the fact that it also breaks combos that make it clunky and disadvantageous compared to Defiance. And for PLD it's even worse because if they want to switch back to DPS, they have to either cancel Shield Oath before finishing the combo, then switch to Sword Oath at the end, or finish his combo in Shield Oath, then switch to Sword Oath, which results in even more DPS loss. DRK only has this problem for switching from DPS to tank, the other way is just dropping Grit and can be done in the middle of a combo. -
10-06-2015, 07:53 PMSapphidia
Hypothetical question: how would the balance of the game be skewed if the three tank stances didn't come with -20% damage?
So Shield Oath/Grit was literally less damage taken and extra threat, and defiance was threat, health, healing and access to different moves. Paladins and Dark Knights would stay in stance 100% and only drop stance when they wanted to tank swap and dps something without having huge threat. Warriors would probably sit in Defiance a lot more and mostly just stance dance to use specific moves.
I only ask as that was how i've seen other games do it - take WoW for instance, where the tank stance for protection paladins was literally "you do more threat with this on" and nothing else. Outside of PvP balance, tanks didn't really suffer a damage decrease in their tank stance (and if they did, it was compensated for by access to moves/talents that ended up doing more damage when tanking compared to a DPS stance).
The issue right now is that as Freyyy has stated, Warriors are designed to stance dance because they have a kit that allows access to different moves in different stances. Stance swapping is accessing different parts of the toolkit. A Fel Cleave is -far- more damage than an Inner beast both due to the potency AND the damage down of Defiance. Equilibrium has both uses. I guess steel cyclone/decimate is fairly similar. But in general, Warriors have been designed with the dancing in mind.
Paladins and Dark Knights -seem- like their stances are merely a "role designation" from the view of the devs - they're either in "I'm tanking something" or "I'm the OT and just DPSing at the moment" modes, as they're so much clunkier to toggle and they don't have anywhere near as much impact in the skill use. They're purely a "do I want 20% damage or 20% less damage taken" toggle that doesnt flow with their abilities, but the player base has minmaxed to the point where they're using a clunky kit in an optimal way that -probably- wasnt how the devs intended the class to be played.
I'm not saying removing the damage penalty is the answer, but it feels like if they arent going to make Grit/Oaths easier or more fluid to swap in combat, they should make tanking in the tanking stance more desirable. What if, for example, they hugely buffed the threat and damage of Shield Swipe and made it apply the Slashing Down Debuff.... but you could only use the skill in Shield Oath? Something like that so paladins and drks feel like actually being in their tanking stance isnt for the most part an entirely negative thing.
Most tanks now, on hard content, use their tank stances in the same way they might use a short duration cooldown: incoming damage, pop tank stance + rampart/skin or something, absorb big hit, back to DPS stance. This feels fine for Warrior due to the fluidity of the kit, but just feels "off" for the other two tanks. -
10-06-2015, 08:20 PMSpookyGhostUnchained would need to be changed, other than that I don't think it would have any real negative effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphidia
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10-06-2015, 08:25 PMFreyyyInner Beast ignores the damage penalty of Defiance. It's just less potency and -5% because you're not in Deliverance. Otherwise, I agree with everything you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphidia
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10-07-2015, 01:38 AMNektulos-TuorDark does not have an offensive stance. Also, why are you and everyone trying to make Paladin and DRK like Warrior? That is boring, you know why I want to play other classes? So they are not like one class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teiren
If you want to play "Warrior" why not be a "Warrior?"
Warriors are high risk stance tanks. Play a Warrior if you want to be a Warrior. =P -
10-07-2015, 01:41 AMExodus_KenpachiDarkside bro.... Darkside. Also WAR is not a high risk tank lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor
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10-07-2015, 02:46 AMFreyyyDarkside is not a DPS stance. It's a Maim equivalent. A stance cannot be used alongside another stance, and usually doesn't constantly drain a resource. Darkside is more something like a personal "aura" than a stance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
What would be a DPS stance for DRK is something that would cancel Grit when used, share the same recast timer (which is currently the GCD), have the same MP cost, and wouldn't interfere with Darkside either. -
10-07-2015, 11:53 AMBrian_
Here is what people don't understand.
Job design is about overall balance.
Yes, WAR does not get immediate mitigation purely from stance dancing to Defiance.
That's irrelevant. Completely irrelevant. Why? Because Defiance doesn't exist in a vacuum. Neither does Deliverance. If you want to view WAR stances in a vacuum, then you should also look at stuff like Inner Beast, Fell Cleave, Decimate, Equilibrium, etc. in a vacuum. Defiance might be worse than Shield Oath when removed from its context. But, if you view IB, FC, Decimate, etc. with the same standards, WAR skills would deserve to be nerfed into the ground because they are so much better than what PLD and DRK have.
The point is that Defiance and Deliverance have to be weaker because you have to factor in the value of stacks and stances allowing otherwise completely overpowered skills like IB, FC, Decimate, etc. to exist. There might not be an upfront gain in mitigation when activating Defiance, but you gain access to a number of incredibly strong skills that only exist because of your weaker stance. That's a persistent strength of the stance just like how mitigation is a persistent strength of Grit and Shield Oath. Imagine PLDs / DRKs with IB, FC, and Equilibrium. It would be ludicrous. -
10-07-2015, 05:34 PMTeiren
Right, Defiance doesn't exist in a vaccuum. It is about overall design and balance, so that's why Inner Beast is irrelevant to Defiance being off-GCD and PLD/DRK's stances being on-GCD.
However, Defiance isn't weaker than Shield Oath/Grit. They're already equal. That's what I've been talking about this whole time. You still require almost EXACTLY the same rate of healing to survive as a Warrior in Defiance as a PLD/DRK in Shield Oath/Grit. I did concede that technically you would be more susceptible to dying than a PLD/DRK in the moment you switch to Defiance before you receive any healing, but that's a completely ridiculous technicality; it doesn't matter. If you were that close to dying, then healers would be already healing you anyway.
Yes, I understand that you could save 5 Abandon for Inner Beast if you knew for sure that you were going to take a lot of damage the moment you switch to Defiance, but that's such an unrealistic scenario, and, again, Inner Beast is separate from Defiance because it's a tool just like Rampart or Dark Dance, so I'm dismissing it.
And yes, if Sword Oath/Grit were off GCD, of course I would expect them to have at least a 10 sec cooldown. This isn't about making PLD/DRK just like WAR. I don't know how that could happen from this simple change. I just think the game should stay casual and fun to play instead of frustrating or awkward.
Anyway, at this point I think our opinions of game design are just plain different, and we're being fueled by that rather than considering practical applications of different designs. That's okay, but I'm going to quit this now.
To get back on topic: I think we can at the very least all agree that Oaths/Grit should not break weaponskill combos. Sorry for bringing too much game design discussion into this. This topic should be about common sense fixes to the game's systems instead of game design which is much more subjective. -
10-07-2015, 08:24 PMDuelleI would welcome this to a degree, as that would put a dent on stance-swaps while MTing (something I want to very much see be tossed into the void to never return).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphidia
It'd bring the 3 tanks closer in personal DPS since with slashing debuff PLD and DRK are supposedly around 10% behind WAR. This would however also call for Unchained to be redesigned since it'd serve no purpose if your suggestion was implemented, and that would potentially cause problems if it were turned into yet another DPS booster for WAR.
I'll contest this. Deliverance, Fel Cleave and Decimate are there to give WAR an answer to Sword Oath while off-tanking. My guess is something in the way abilities are programmed required Deliverance/Defiance be off-GCD so as to not lose stacks (since losing 5 stacks of Abandon/Wrath when swapping is a much stiffer penalty than interrupting combos and losing some MP). The way Equilibrium works also hints to this, since it's a self-heal in Defiance (turning it into a decent recovery cooldown while tanking) and TP recover in Deliverance (to help TP upkeep while off-tanking).Quote:
The issue right now is that as Freyyy has stated, Warriors are designed to stance dance because they have a kit that allows access to different moves in different stances. Stance swapping is accessing different parts of the toolkit. A Fel Cleave is -far- more damage than an Inner beast both due to the potency AND the damage down of Defiance. Equilibrium has both uses. I guess steel cyclone/decimate is fairly similar. But in general, Warriors have been designed with the dancing in mind.
If the job were truly designed around stance dancing, the cooldowns on Deliverance and Defiance would be 2.5s instead of 10s. You'd also have more diverse abilities per stance instead of essentially DPS versions of Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone. It's pretty clear the devs felt WAR not having access to something akin to Wrath stacks while off-tanking was a bit of a waste, and it was corrected with the HW skills.
Looking at PLD and DRK, one can see they were designed to stay in Shield Oath/Grit while tanking and going Sword Oath/Darkside-only while off-tanking/DPSing.Quote:
Paladins and Dark Knights -seem- like their stances are merely a "role designation" from the view of the devs - they're either in "I'm tanking something" or "I'm the OT and just DPSing at the moment" modes, as they're so much clunkier to toggle and they don't have anywhere near as much impact in the skill use. They're purely a "do I want 20% damage or 20% less damage taken" toggle that doesn't flow with their abilities, but the player base has minmaxed to the point where they're using a clunky kit in an optimal way that -probably- wasnt how the devs intended the class to be played.
This sounds like a good idea.Quote:
What if, for example, they hugely buffed the threat and damage of Shield Swipe and made it apply the Slashing Down Debuff.... but you could only use the skill in Shield Oath? Something like that so paladins and drks feel like actually being in their tanking stance isnt for the most part an entirely negative thing.
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10-07-2015, 08:34 PMArdorGreyBlows my mind how someone can say something like this and use it as an argument for why drk and pld should have on demand toggleable pseudo sentinel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
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10-07-2015, 08:41 PMSpookyGhostAh, but you see, you're looking at DRK and PLD in a vacuum. What you need to do is look at them in a toaster, then you'll see where the balance comes into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdorGrey
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10-07-2015, 08:54 PMFreyyyIt's already on demand toggleable since it's on the GCD and it's far from being as strong as Sentinel. Making it oGCD wouldn't change anything about that, it would just make it more smooth and actually enjoyable to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdorGrey
But I personally ask to atleast make Grit/Oaths not breaking combos anymore. That's for me the real issue, the real reason why it's so clunky. -
10-08-2015, 10:59 AMNFaelivrinI didn't know 20% mitigation = 40% mitigation but I'm sure this makes sense to you, somehow. WARs can cry about how PLD and DRK don't deserve off-gcd stance dancing when they stop being the best tank in the game by an absolutely ridiculous margin. You know what blows my mind? That the physical class with the absolute lowest TP consumption in single target of all was given pseudo invigorate when they absolutely had no need for it, while the other tanks have to cry for goad 3 minutes into a fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdorGrey
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10-08-2015, 06:08 PMCidolfas86Everyone knows you look at them in an oven. Toaster scrubs should go back to WoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
Eh, even during the 50 cap era I could still run dry on WAR if my Pacify was getting regularly cleansed and I was using IB regularly. It's nowhere near as fast as DRK, and not quite as fast as PLD, but it could happen. Not to mention WAR is the only one of the 3 that uses TP for AoE threat so its not entirely undeserved that they got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NFaelivrin
However it wouldn't hurt to see something similar on the other 2. They could just as easily apply a TP regen or TP save buff to Tempered Will. That would instantly make it shoot up high on the useful ability list. Add equivalent for DRK outside of Blood Weapon that can be used as MT-boom problem solved. DRK especially needs help in this field because there is no "Shield Swipe" equivalent to stem the tide as MT. -
10-08-2015, 07:12 PMFreyyyI think Sole Survivor may be a good candidate for such an addition. It already restores both HP and MP, why not TP after all. The CD and requirement for it to work would make it completely balanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidolfas86
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10-08-2015, 10:07 PMTeirenThis is exactly correct, and this is exactly what's upsetting me. This game started out being as casual as possible, which is why Oaths/Grit work like they do, and I think they need to keep it that way because people will just go back to WoW if they try to do overly difficult/annoying gameplay. However, at the same time even people that don't play MMORPGs to death will eventually learn and grow frustrated with this Oath/Grit system (many probably already have), so they definitely should change it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphidia
I'm not primarily a tank, and I haven't done Savage yet, so these are all honest questions that I'm not trying to be accusatory or inflammatory with:Quote:
Most tanks now, on hard content, use their tank stances in the same way they might use a short duration cooldown: incoming damage, pop tank stance + rampart/skin or something, absorb big hit, back to DPS stance. This feels fine for Warrior due to the fluidity of the kit, but just feels "off" for the other two tanks.
How is this possible?
Why would a tank stress out his healer(s) like this?
Putting aside player psychology (which is still important), isn't healer DPS higher than tank DPS?
Therefore, aren't you contributing more DPS by reducing damage taken by as much as possible in order to let the healer DPS more and heal less?
I've played WoW for many years, and if a tank ever tried something like this they would die before the healer could heal them. Is Savage's damage output on the tank really not deadly enough? It already seemed almost lethal on Normal before everyone outgeared it to hell and back. Burden of the Father's burst was somewhat a nightmare. I assumed it would scale up properly in Savage. -
10-08-2015, 10:16 PMLuckeAs I understand it, of the 3 classes, DRK and WAR DPS blows PLD DPS out of the water. So going VIT PLD and Shield Oath while letting the healer DPS is just as good as a WAR or DRK pushing out DPS at the cost of having the Healer heal more rather than DPS. So really, I guess it depends on the tank. I go full turtle no matter what though, to make healing me a little less stressful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teiren
So like in terms of DPS: VIT/SO PLD with healer DPS = STR WAR/DRK with healer healing. -
10-08-2015, 10:20 PMkarateorangutangQuote:
Originally Posted by Teiren
I'm no expert either, but this is what I gather. In the current meta tanks can achieve the survivability needed fairly easily. Since fights are so scripted and generally auto attacks hit like wet noodles then you can coast pretty easily in DPS stance most of the time without being a giant burden on healers. A good tank with a good awareness of a fight can switch back and forth without placing a huge burden on MP. Additionally, the tank's DPS when doing this is greater than the DPS the healer could be doing otherwise.
The only way to fix this problem without changing stances would be to make healer DPS sufficient enough to make the extra time they would have while we are in our tank stance worth more than us being in DPS stance.
Then we are talking about total game balance though and that is an issue. Honestly though when I'm running tank stance on bosses, etc. The amount of extra incoming damage is completely laughable. -
10-08-2015, 10:24 PMTeiren
I had this in my post up there, but it works better as a separate post:
I'm starting to think the problem isn't how the stances are designed off or on-GCD but rather that they don't affect survivability ENOUGH. If Shield Oath/Grit/Defiance all had their %'s increased to something like 35%-40% from the current 20%, that would allow the devs to dramatically increase damage dealt by monsters that are supposed to be hitting a tank. This way, tank stances would be absolutely necessary and used almost always appropriately. In other words, the off-GCD/on-GCD thing wouldn't matter because you wouldn't be swapping nearly as often. In fact, I think this is what happened in WoW, though very gradually.
So yeah, this is my final feedback on what I think should happen: Widen the gap between tank/non-tank stances to allow the intentionally hard parts of the game to be designed so that tanks have to actually tank when they're supposed to. Then again, many would be against that because the current game design apparently lets people get by with active swapping which feels smart and fun when executed well, so they would have to shore up tank stance gameplay if they did this...ugh, I don't know.
Anyway, back on topic: All the front page changes still seem great and common sense to me. -
10-08-2015, 10:28 PMFreyyyAbsolutely not, it's the contrary. The DPS a healer gains from a tank being more tanky is and will always be inferior to the DPS a tank gains from going STR + DPS stance. The reasons for this are simple : Healers need to completely stop to perform their primary role in order to start DPSing, whereas tanks can do both at the same time, they're damage-dealing jobs and constantly hitting the boss. Tanks have most of the time even more uptime than DPSers themselves on the boss. The second reason is that healers don't meet the accuracy in order to have 100% hit chance, so their DPS is at some degree tied to RNG on raid content. Even with melded accessories with accuracy, they can't have enough to fully meet the cap. The only situation where healer DPS gain can be superior to tank DPS gain is for massive pulls during dungeons with a WHM and a PLD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teiren
With that said, going into DPS stance and wearing STR in Savage doesn't stress out the good healers. The fights are completely 100% scripted and are always the same with almost no RNG involved except "who will be targetted by this mechanic ?". By good enough CD usage and proper stance-dancing, the incoming damage in this game are a real joke and completely predictable which makes healing more of a song to learn perfectly and repeat everytime you do the same fight than just being like "oh this guy got hit, I heal him, oh my god this tank got destroyed, I need to heal him right now !". It's more like "Oh, we gonna get raid-wide damage soon. Pop mitigation, make sure everyone is topped off, pre-cast AoE heal/hots. Tank is getting only auto-attacks for a little bit of time now, let's keep regen on him and SCH go cleric stance. Oh, spike damage on the tank incoming in X seconds, let's stoneskin/adlo him and make sure he's topped off, he uses a CD so he will take almost no damage, top him off, throw a regen, go back to DPS."
The tank being in DPS stance doesn't change anything about that. Fluff damage is still gonna be fluff damage. As long as you have your tanking stance and CDs for spike damage, there is no stress for healers. -
10-08-2015, 10:29 PMkarateorangutangThinking outside the box here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teiren
What if the damage from autoattacks was increased and the damage from tank busters was slightly decreased. This would make the damage over time a bit larger and force a tank ( at progression anyway) to stay longer in their stances. -
10-08-2015, 10:37 PMTeiren
It feels like you're not supposed to always know exactly when something like, for example, Royal Fount (that's the laser cone in Alexander 1, right?) is going to hit. It's supposed to look sporadic. But true, when you do something to death, you're going to eventually learn patterns, especially in a game with a somewhat slower pace like this one.
Also I think a big part of my confusion stems from greatly underestimating how much healing one spell cast does. I mean, I've levelled all the healers to max level, and it was always easy but still kept me much more engaged than the other Jobs. I just figured in Savage it got insane. As a damage dealer, healing always looks really scary and always a stressful, unsure race to catch up, but I guess that's just how Alexander Duty Finder is sometimes. I really ought to get back into regular raiding with a real raid group, lol.
Anyway yeah, increased autoattack damage to smooth out damage taken would probably solve it, but I don't think they could really change up tank gameplay that much until next expansion. That would maybe tick off too many people. -
10-08-2015, 10:40 PMkarateorangutangIn most cases yes WAR will blow PLD DPS out of the water, especially in aoe situations. I run STR on my PLD too and running in SwO is never really an issue. The issue with PLD isn't single target DPS in SwO, but its DPS in ShO and AoE damage potential in comparison to DRK and WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucke
Also at the end of the day, there is almost no situation where tank dps won't be greater than healer dps. That goes for PLD too ( again AoE is an issue here).