What Roles would you like for Samurai and Red Mage?

Redmage as dps, with jobs in this game having to fit 1 role or another I feel to slot redmage as a healer in another ff game would be an enormous disappointment. I feel giving Redmage access to a Rapier type sword, weapon enhance spells/weaponskills which play to that strength, a decent selection of offensive and yes limited healing magics would allow players coming from ffxi and players already here to play redmage the way people have always drooled over.
That said Samurai's historical role makes it an obvious parry tank, give it the 2 traditional Katana weapons and let it go apeshit, also just floating it out there Samurai are plate armor wearing katana wielding knights, the defining characteristic is a Samurai is a knight in the service of a Feudal Lord. A wandering Samurai without a master is called a Ronin, for the sake of Theme if we had Samurai in this game it should be called Ronin.

you have too to make a valid point as samurai as tank, you know? you argue and all, but give me a reason of why the samurai must be a tank?

because samurai = warrior in terms of tank type...

please tell me why the samurai must be a tank, because in the old FF they can use a shield or heavy armor? forgetting that the samurai don't use shield nor really wear heavy armor.

your only argument is: "dark knight was used to be a dps in old ff now they are a tank"

why add a new dps and not a tank? because dps deal damage, they don't deal with mechanic like tank and healer.... a tank jobs is to get aggros while surviving, nothing more nothing less... they are tie by this. all them gameplay work around this.

a dps is only dealing damage, meaning they can focus on different gameplay, Yoshida himself have said in the past that they don't add a jobs if it don't bring something to group, nor to the game... making tank redundant like the samurai, that will have almost no difference with the warrior.... is idiot. it will bring nothing new, nothing to the group.

Samurai is specialized into parry and counter for them defense, both are already covered by the warrior.
Samurai is specialized into physical damage for them offense, still covered by the warrior.
Samurai is an offensive jobs, is not one that can endure tons of damage, it's one that focus on kill fast them enemy, still something a warrior do.

if you don't understand this point, i can't help you, the only difference between samurai and warrior in terms of gameplay will be how they attack, in terms of type they are potentially the same. worst, dark knight and samurai both will use two handed blade.

what can do a samurai as dps? bring new mechanic based on technique, this new mechanic as tank will not be able to offer new experience outside how you attack. as dps they can offer more possibility.... the dps is not tie to the fight and them mechanic, but only on dealing damage. it's easier for them to add a jobs that will deal damage than a jobs that will tank or heal. since they avoid to make a jobs redundant!

Samurai as Melee DPS
Red Mage as Cast(ing) Tank ;)

Has Samurai been confirmed? where at?

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

Character limit

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Just to make sure. The development staff are too incompetent to make a Samurai Tank that is both fun to play and isn't a blatant copy of the Warrior, but they are capable enough to make a new Melee DPS that is completely original and and in no way just "Do the positionals, Don't get hit by AOEs, toss in a DoT and a Debuff every so often, and a few OGCs."

And now you're going to say, "Aha, The Melee DPS have Mudras and Greased Lightning and Whatever Dragoons have that makes them unique. Take that Chaz." to which I reply, "Seriously, that makes it sound like you're assuming that the hypothetical Tank Samurai is going to have rage stacks and Holmgang and... Other stuff."

And again, no, Samurai has not been confirmed. There was mention of Samurai in the Rising event.

Edit: I missed the point of my lead up: Trust the dev team. Once Schrodiner's Samurai has been let out of the Box, hopefully whatever Role they make it will be fun.

Samurai for melee DPS please. I'm hoping for more of the FFT Samurai/FFTA Parivir style, normal sized katana, wreck your face type of Samurai myself.

the core mechanic of the melee dps is the combo and positional now, believe me i'm the first one to regret it, but Yoshida and it team still follow some data they have receive age ago while the V1. saying it's more fun to have positional and combo together.

that said, tons of idea for interesting dps was given, like a system that is freed of the combo with know making use of the FF11 skill chain system, but used by only one person, you do one skill followed by another, giving an effect as result. they can even farer by adding skill effect needed for obtain another one.

leading to a system where you need to know what the skill chain with another will give. that only one example of possible mechanic that can be used by the samurai, that is a jobs based on technic. making it part of the weaponskill system is the best way to do it (from my viewpoint)

try to add this to a tank, is not possible since it need to focus on the boss hate and survive, that why if you look closely the gameplay tie to the damage of the tank are soo bland actually.

for the dps, since they are freed of this role, they only have to deal damage, they need then to create a deeper system and gameplay for make the jobs less boring to play. that why even if it means more work, you see more dps role added than tank and healer.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

please tell me why the samurai must be a tank, because in the old FF they can use a shield or heavy armor? forgetting that the samurai don't use shield nor really wear heavy armor.

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While the thing with the shield is true, lamellar armor (AKA the armor samurai were known to wear) was not exactly light. It allowed for some flexibility and, if poorly made, made one more vulnerable to thrusting weapons, but it wasn't something you could jump around in.

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Samurai is specialized into parry and counter for them defense, both are already covered by the warrior.

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The only two things in WAR's design that are even pointing towards parries are recent additions: Wrath stacks and Raw Intuition. Vengeance is the only counter-related ability.

WAR is not exactly designed around parries and counters. Those are small parts of its mitigation (which itself is defined by Inner Beast active mitigation). That still leaves room for a tank designed around parries and counters as the main attractions with smaller bits being passive mitigation or cooldowns. Or something like this (not perfect, but it proves my point).

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worst, dark knight and samurai both will use two handed blade.

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This is the only point I'm willing to grant you.

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Originally Posted by Mina_Miyafuji

Has Samurai been confirmed? where at?

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It was hinted at in the recent rising quests (if you did it that is) of red mage and sam being the next jobs.

So many of these topics poping up tho. But SAM will almost certainly be a Sword DPS. while RDM a caster DPS or at the very least a caster support. as those makes the most sense.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

It was hinted at in the recent rising quests (if you did it that is) of red mage and sam being the next jobs.

So many of these topics poping up tho. But SAM will almost certainly be a Sword DPS. while RDM a caster DPS or at the very least a caster support. as those makes the most sense.

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I figured Red Mage would be a melee DPS with the ability to enchant their rapier with magic which would be their stances. Similar to Monk or Huton for Ninja, and cast close range magic similar to the signs from the Witcher series. I think that would work best for FFXIV, but who knows? Doesn't make much sense to have a sword if you're not going to use it.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

I figured Red Mage would be a melee DPS with the ability to enchant their rapier with magic which would be their stances. Similar to Monk or Huton for Ninja, and cast close range magic similar to the signs from the Witcher series. I think that would work best for FFXIV, but who knows? Doesn't make much sense to have a sword if you're not going to use it.

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If they follow the niche of how RDM has worked in past games it will most certainly untilize a sword with spells, My guess is enchanted swords magical damaging melee attacks, etc. this is why i said it will make the most sense, as since it is a mage it will follow caster dps or meele caster dps. some people want it to be a tank, which makes very little sense as rdm has never "tanked" before. and they don't even wear heavy armor.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

If they follow the niche of how RDM has worked in past games it will most certainly untilize a sword with spells, My guess is enchanted swords magical damaging melee attacks, etc. this is why i said it will make the most sense, as since it is a mage it will follow caster dps or meele caster dps. some people want it to be a tank, which makes very little sense as rdm has never "tanked" before. and they don't even wear heavy armor.

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See, that's sortof what I don't want, on the basis that it eats into the Sword Mage/Mystic Knight((My personal all time favourite class))'s niche. Sword AND magic, yes. Swords imbued with Magic, no.

read mage = melee dps
samurai = pure healer

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Originally Posted by Colorful

I figured Red Mage would be a melee DPS with the ability to enchant their rapier with magic which would be their stances. Similar to Monk or Huton for Ninja, and cast close range magic similar to the signs from the Witcher series. I think that would work best for FFXIV, but who knows?

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RDM...and The Witcher? Hmm....anyone know if Geralt ever wore a pimp hat?

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

some people want it to be a tank, which makes very little sense as rdm has never "tanked" before. and they don't even wear heavy armor.

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in FF games only XI and XIV has real tanks, never tanked before is mostly irrelevant. there's also a first time for everything and FF games are about evolving the series not staying stagnant the entire time. NINs definitely didn't "tank" before XI and when players started doing that SE didn't nerf the hell out of them so they couldn't do it.

you don't need heavy armor to tank, FF games have this fancy thing we like to call magic.

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

See, that's sortof what I don't want, on the basis that it eats into the Sword Mage/Mystic Knight((My personal all time favourite class))'s niche. Sword AND magic, yes. Swords imbued with Magic, no.

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most likely RDM will encompass all of those things like how NIN has some THF skills since 14 will probably never have THF and MCH has some Chemist like things and AST has some Time Mage and Gambler like things.

if they decide Mystic Knight isn't a thing they will boring the stuff they like from it and give it to a job that they will actually implement.

Sam needs to be a DPS that gets bonuses for being face to face with the mob. It should share the maiming gear. Rdm sounds cool as melee magick dps or as magick tank.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

RDM...and The Witcher? Hmm....anyone know if Geralt ever wore a pimp hat?

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Chances are.... Absolutely Yes.

Samurai is tough call: it could go either way.

If SE is modelling the Samurai after a kenjutsu style like "Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu" (KSR for short) - along with heavy armor and the mitigating (almost marathon-length compared to other schools) kata like in the Omote no Tachi - then, traditionally, it would likely be Tank. However, if they are going to go with any of the Edo period styles like Mugai ryu, or others like any of the Itto-ryu schools, or even a Muromachi period style like Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, those would be best for DPS. Also, if the devs are fans of 三船敏郎さん (Toshiro Mifune), and the movies he has starred in (like Samurai Trilogy, Yojimbo, or Seven Samurai), it's a good bet they may go with the KSR modelling (Mifune along with his teacher and choreographer, Yoshio Sugino, in those films, were part of the Sugino KSR school), and - in that case - it may go Tank. But, the fast-pace action (like what is taught in KSR's Gogyo no Tachi) can lend itself well to DPS.

In the end, I guess it really just depends on what era they are going to model the Samurai after.

Still, my vote is for mDPS armed with either tachi or kodachi.

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As for Red Mage, my vote is for Supporting DPS with off-heals armed with either a knife or a western fencing style sword.

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

I've passed the point where I don't care whether Samurai is a Tank or a DPS, but I'd like to point out that when people say "Share armour with Dragoon" they're typically talking about lower levels, where there are four basic armour types. Tank Armour, DPS Armour, Caster/Healer Armour, and Dragoon/Lancer Armour. Not the Top level Combat gear where the Tanks all share, the Casters both share, the healers all share, the Ranged DPS both share, and the Melee DPS all get their own.

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Nope, I'm talking about those higher level gear where tanks/casters/healers/rangedDPS have their shared gearsets, but melee DPS as of yet do not have anyone to share with =) I don't see anything wrong with that changing, and them getting other jobs to share gear with.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

There's nothing wrong with DPS sharing gearsets. I only commented on why specifically must DRG share their gearset as the person mentioned "We need more mail wearing dps". And I simply asked...why? Why specifically DRG? Why not MNK? or Nin? If Samurai get added as a dps, they will most certainly be sharing a dps gearset with some existing job.

Gearset sharing does become a problem when you mix roles though. Such as having a dps wearing heavy fending armor where now they compete against tanks (Who already have to compete against each other) for gear.

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I can't speak for the others making the SAM/DRG connection, but with me it's because my image of Samurai is a medium-heavy to heavy armour wearing kind of class/job. Which makes sense with Dragoon armour, since it wouldn't work to have Samurai share tank gear if it's not a tank job. But like I also said in the post you quoted: If Samurai is made with the lighter type of armour that it seems Yoshida envisioned it in, then it makes more sense to pair up SAM/MNK =D
(And like I said in my original post, if they make Red Mage a magic melee DPS, and have the base stat be Dex, it would make sense to let RDM/NIN share gear.)

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

Nope, I'm talking about those higher level gear where tanks/casters/healers/rangedDPS have their shared gearsets, but melee DPS as of yet do not have anyone to share with =) I don't see anything wrong with that changing, and them getting other jobs to share gear with.

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you must have never seen the appearance of MNK and DRG gear from Binding Coil and Syrcus Tower. there was no reason why those sets couldn't have been shared because appearance and statwise they are basically the same. SE hasn't let either of those things dictate how they make gear, whether it's the same exact piece or not seems to be determined mostly by how much time they want people farming them.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

you must have never seen the appearance of MNK and DRG gear from Binding Coil and Syrcus Tower. there was no reason why those sets couldn't have been shared because appearance and statwise they are basically the same. SE hasn't let either of those things dictate how they make gear, whether it's the same exact piece or not seems to be determined mostly by how much time they want people farming them.

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The reason why they don't share gear is due to the numbers on them. Look at Def/Mdef numbers. While the Mdef is now equal (after the Devs realized the lower Mdef made DRG tank the floor more often than not with all the raid-wide magic damage), DRG gear has a higher Def number, since they're of the "medium heavy" category whereas MNK is of the "medium" category.
Allagan Cuirass of Striking vs. Allagan Cuirass of Maiming

The Guardian's Breastplate of Striking vs. The Guardian's Breastplate of Maiming

Appearance-wise, they're just palette swaps, yes, just as caster/healer gear is.

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

The reason why they don't share gear is due to the numbers on them. Look at Def/Mdef numbers.

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welp, guess i never looked at that, that's even more awful. MNKs and NINs are getting screwed.

Samurai could pretty easily fill a role of a melee dps
I would imagine it being sort of monk-esque where different attacks changed your state of balance governing which attacks you could follow with and building up stacks of flow for big finishers
Just hopefully without the silly amount of positional requirement

red mage on the other hand...
the things that really define a red mage are pretty much covered by every healer in the game
the only thing i could see working while keeping red mage aesthetic is some sort of melee/ranged hybrid
like a stance swap between a melee attacker/debuff/dot role and a long range with casting times and support buffs role

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

I can't speak for the others making the SAM/DRG connection, but with me it's because my image of Samurai is a medium-heavy to heavy armour wearing kind of class/job. Which makes sense with Dragoon armour, since it wouldn't work to have Samurai share tank gear if it's not a tank job. But like I also said in the post you quoted: If Samurai is made with the lighter type of armour that it seems Yoshida envisioned it in, then it makes more sense to pair up SAM/MNK =D
(And like I said in my original post, if they make Red Mage a magic melee DPS, and have the base stat be Dex, it would make sense to let RDM/NIN share gear.)

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I suspect red mages will share BLM/SMN gear, since Yoshida's talked about wanting a melee caster in the past.

SAM melee DPS

RDM healer


RDM could make a solid DPS class, but it's a bad idea to release 2 dps at the same time. Remember how bad the leveling queues were for NIN? It would be twice as bad.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

RDM...and The Witcher? Hmm....anyone know if Geralt ever wore a pimp hat?

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I've been playing through The Witcher 3 (slowly) lately, and after reading this post, I just now got an image of Geralt wearing a Red Mage outfit.

lols were had.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

SAM melee DPS

RDM healer


RDM could make a solid DPS class, but it's a bad idea to release 2 dps at the same time. Remember how bad the leveling queues were for NIN? It would be twice as bad.

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You know the more I think on it, I guess it wouldn't be a bad idea if they could make RDM a healer or dps, if they wanted to go in the way of stance or such prior to joining the dungeon/trial or whatever. Healer in one, DPS in another. If people are against this idea, then I would have to throw it to DPS cus you can't give me a sword then expect me to stand in the back healing waving my sword like a staff unless your going to link it like dancer where attacking your mob restores HP per strike and such.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

red mage on the other hand...
the things that really define a red mage are pretty much covered by every healer in the game
the only thing i could see working while keeping red mage aesthetic is some sort of melee/ranged hybrid
like a stance swap between a melee attacker/debuff/dot role and a long range with casting times and support buffs role

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I actually imagine it to be like the Arcanist/Summoner, in that it has a revive and a light heal, but is otherwise a DPS or a DPS support class. Sure you can keep someone alive for a bit, and save the day if things start going to shit, but your job is to make things dead.

Of course, if they do do it as such, you can bet that there'll be arguments re: "It doesn't need to hit as hard, it has a combat revive, it is a support class."

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

You know the more I think on it, I guess it wouldn't be a bad idea if they could make RDM a healer or dps, if they wanted to go in the way of stance or such prior to joining the dungeon/trial or whatever. Healer in one, DPS in another.

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XIV's core design doesn't really allow for that, though. It'd be another story if we had specializations for our jobs, but the jobs themselves were implemented as specializations for classes. Sure, it didn't pan out, but that groundwork is still there.

In a perfect world RDM would be able to pick its role and go with it (though I'm sure you'd have drama over which RDM spec would be most useful to a group and we'd end up with "spam refresh or GTFO" like we did in FFXI). Since that's not the case, I lean towards melee DPS. It's the concept that to me feels most natural (between what i know of hybrids and my experiences in the game that got hybrids right, WoW) and avoids the slew of problems the job had the last time.

It also allows more flexibility and gives opportunity to play like a hybrid. A tank is too busy taking damage and focusing on staying alive to throw off-heals or use defensive cooldowns on other party members. Likewise, a healer is too busy keeping people alive and throwing out what DPS they can. DPS can make the active choice of hitting things or throw off-heals/some defensive cooldowns without really hurting anyone nor increasing the group's chances of failure.

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

I actually imagine it to be like the Arcanist/Summoner, in that it has a revive and a light heal, but is otherwise a DPS or a DPS support class. Sure you can keep someone alive for a bit, and save the day if things start going to shit, but your job is to make things dead.

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This is how I would like to see it implemented as well. DPS as primary role, utility of some kind (I'd limit it to off-heals with limited use and Phalanx as a defensive cooldown you can use on one party member). Shares gear with BRD, deals NIN-level DPS.

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Of course, if they do do it as such, you can bet that there'll be arguments re: "It doesn't need to hit as hard, it has a combat revive, it is a support class."

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I wish SE would squash the whole support bit and get it through their heads it doesn't work in a trinity-based MMO. Of course, it's also partly the community's fault because in their universe DRG having +Crit and AST having +damage somehow don't count as support, yet they slog a bunch of bullshit at BRD and MCH and label them as support. That SE seems to titter between "BRD and MCH are DPS jobs" and "BRD and MCH are support jobs" doesn't help.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

You know the more I think on it, I guess it wouldn't be a bad idea if they could make RDM a healer or dps, if they wanted to go in the way of stance or such prior to joining the dungeon/trial or whatever. Healer in one, DPS in another. If people are against this idea, then I would have to throw it to DPS cus you can't give me a sword then expect me to stand in the back healing waving my sword like a staff unless your going to link it like dancer where attacking your mob restores HP per strike and such.

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Even if it were straight heals, RDM could have their own version of cleric stance, except it swaps MND & STR. Or, just have cleric stance, and make the sword buffs (en- etc) base damage off your current INT.

Both as melee dps, but with some decent ranged burst and mobility on RDM. RDM would also be able to optionally deal high amounts of enmity to serve either as a decoy or tank (usually a blend, kiting until its spells/combos are ready for another defensive burst). Some small support capability, roughly equal in raid value to NIN's, but with less guaranteed use (more like a caster-less Bard in that sense). DPS also roughly equal to NIN when using pure damage abilities. Good crowd-control via snares, slows, and paralysis, though their use comes largely in place of higher-(pure)damage abilities. Certain tools / CDs can be used on others in place of personal use (e.g. certain mana refreshing CDs), but they are usually slightly better off being used oneself outside of emergencies. RDM's healing is limited to a modification of its offensive abilities, such as Cauterizing bleeds or Shocking tranced allies.
Uses the rapier. (Maybe stems from the Fencer class.) Stats are Dex and Int. Rule of thumb: it wears pants, not dresses, but half-cloaks are its favorite fashion.

Samurai would be a melee dps who can trade out some of its dps-focusing rotations for supportive tones, increased survivability, and/or increased threat. Though costly to its dps, it can tank, and does so quite decently even without any specifically defensive cooldowns (many of its seemingly 'offensive' CDs are dual-purpose). It is not a tank you'd necessarily want to send against tank busters, though, serving better against small groups of enemies, adept at chaining enemy strikes into each other and counter-attacking. Full DPS capabilities, but a bit niche/situational as a tank. SAM tanking, and mitigation-building, is less direct than most tanks. It has a lot of natural cleave, good mobility, and excellent threat manipulation, but no threat nukes (e.g. Butcher's Block), no spammable AoEs, and its ranged attack is on a CD. Its support can aid the tactical direction of the group, but comes at cost of the SAM's pure dps. Its dps is roughly Monk/Dragoon level when playing as pure dps, and slightly beneath NIN's when taking occasional advantage of its tactical support. Has a very slight magic component.
Uses the katana, in single or double style - the weapon(s) come as a single-slot set. Stats are STR (followed by, if we were to return to a multi-main-stat system, Piety and Dexterity for typical builds, and some use for all remaining stats for other less normal purposes). DRG-level defense. (Possibly also able to equip certain pieces of tank armor, but at cost of some other stat or the like.)

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I suspect red mages will share BLM/SMN gear, since Yoshida's talked about wanting a melee caster in the past.

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I rather suspect that as well, hence the emphasis on "and" ^^ I mean, they could choose to make them Dex-based and have their magic attacks scale off of that, just like NIN's mudras. It's not very likely, but they could.

Both melee dps.

Midlaner and jungler.

Black=dps
White=healer
Red=tank

They'll be dualists who use a fencing sword and capitalize on parries/debuffs/buff spells for tanking

Riposte/Inquartata/
Spells like En-spells, Blaze Spikes, Haste etc.

It makes perfect sense to me. They will likely combine RDM from ffxi with Illusionist/Fencer from FFT.
RDM's dps skills would be str based like pld and be sword combos. Spells would be buffs/debuffs so not based on int/mnd, it would be grey magic like ff6 (blind/paralyze/slow/bind/phalanx/wall/

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Black=dps
White=healer
Red=tank

They'll be dualists who use a fencing sword and capitalize on parries/debuffs/buff spells for tanking

Riposte/Inquartata/
Spells like En-spells, Blaze Spikes, Haste etc.

It makes perfect sense to me. They will likely combine RDM from ffxi with Illusionist/Fencer from FFT.
RDM's dps skills would be str based like pld and be sword combos. Spells would be buffs/debuffs so not based on int/mnd, it would be grey magic like ff6 (blind/paralyze/slow/bind/phalanx/wall/

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Exactly what i've been saying. It makes sense because they want to get up-close and personal and heal AND dps. What classes are like that? Tanks.

It should also be Dex/Vit.

It's hard for me to say, after a great deal of time browsing threads about them, I can honestly see both classes going either way.

For Samurai as a tank, it could be perfect with a damage reflection/counter style of tanking. Reducing damage of attacks and dealing a portion of that damage back to the enemy with an obvious cap on how much damage they could deal back to an enemy. Counter/damage reflection style moves are among my favorites in MMO's and made tanking with my Sith Warrior in SWTOR and my Void Knight in Rift a blast. On other hand, putting Samurai on the same armor type as drg and give them some party buff moves and aoe (if you've played Final Fantasy Tactics, samurai could do that) and some really cool great katana attacks it could be a really fun class to play.

For Red Mage as a tank, it could be all about creating magical shields and damage absorption using it's rapier and being a magical fencer style of tank. On the other hand, an elemental melee type class with some dots to supplement their dps and a few buffs of their own to cast on the party could be very fun as well. Though with rdm, it is my deepest hope that no matter what it is a melee class with a rapier that has to be up close and personal with the enemy, as that is what red mage is meant to do. Not only that, but on a personal note, the one handed weapon fighting style with no offhand is grossly underutilized in RPG's in general. Having a character with a single melee weapon and no offhand is actually a refreshing thing to see.

Edit: The game is due for a tank, a healer, and a melee dps atm. As it stands, we have 3 tanks, 3 healers, 3 melee dps, and 4 ranged dps. So I don't expect another ranged dps any time soon tbh.

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Originally Posted by Blindheart

Where is my gunblade class?

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You have it, Machinist with their weapon Blue Steel.

http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...4fe250c0d4.jpg

If I had to guess, Samurai and Red Mage will both be melee damage dealers. With Blue Mage coming out left field as the first Disciple of Magic tank.