Astrologian "BUFFS"

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

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He was merely making a bad joke.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

I'd love for AST to be good too. I just think giving them straight up copies of abilities from sch/whm and making them better than the original classes versions is not the right way to do it. But that's 80% of what you see around here. Focus on the card buffs and speed healer/time mage theme if you really want to improve them and keep them unique.

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The problem is SE gave us copies of SCH/WHM abilities and then made them weaker. Other than a full rework of the class from the foundation, we are asking for the skills they gave us to work like they need to in order to be considered viable in comparison. CU needs to be completely reworked. What it does now in either stance is weak compared to the skills from WHM/SCH that is mimics, and for some reason takes us out of the fight while we use it. I don't want it to be exactly like Sacred Soil or Asylum, but I also don't want it to be the same skill only weaker(which is exactly what it is right now).


Other changes have been suggested, the class needs to be completely reworked, so we aren't a half sch-half whm ugly stepchild that no one wants around.

The cards need buffing, at least 10-15 higher in the % to make up for the weaker healing, and to set us apart from just being a weaker SCH/WHM hybrid with a tacked on RNG system that isn't worth it.

The lightspeed buff is a good start, but it does nothing but save us 1 spells worth a mana and gives us 1 free heal, nothing else makes it special, and lowering it's time to 10 seconds made it weaker than it needed to be.

Noct Sect needs to be completely reworked, the shields don't work at that low of potency, and without the crit bonus of adlo it's never worth using them. Either find a new direction for the Sect, or make it exactly like SCH(or some compromise like the shields are always 1.5xHeal) so that there is a reason to use it in place of a SCH if need be. Also if TIme Dilation and CO are going to enhance Diurnal sect, find a way for them, or some other skills we have to enhance Noct.

I wish they'd made the class play completely differently. The card draws should be worked into our heals/spells, and we should be able to build a 3 or so card deck, and then use RR or Spread or Play on them as we choose. The whole class is a chimera of parts that don't work well together.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

It has to compete with Sacred Soil, which has a much lower practical cooldown, is much larger, can be cast at range, and isn't channeled, so it has to have enough benefits to make it superior to that while still being channeled.

But just doing a simple "It now heals for more" is just....boring. I'd like to see the devs do something interesting with it, it just needs to be the absolute best ability to use when it is off GCD unless you are reserving it.

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And people act like I'm being crazy about the kind of stuff that gets posted here.

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Originally Posted by Emonik

Noct Sect needs to be completely reworked, the shields don't work at that low of potency, and without the crit bonus of adlo it's never worth using them. Either find a new direction for the Sect, or make it exactly like SCH(or some compromise like the shields are always 1.5xHeal) so that there is a reason to use it in place of a SCH if need be. Also if TIme Dilation and CO are going to enhance Diurnal sect, find a way for them, or some other skills we have to enhance Noct.

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So that your shields are better than scholars like 85-90% of the time in addition to being instant cast and 70% of the mana?

Thank you for more evidence for my point.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

So that your shields are better than scholars like 85-90% of the time?

Thank you for more evidence for my point.

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Ok now i know you are just trolling. The point is that the rest of my heals are weaker than whm/sch, the point is I can't buff my heals ever. Do you see the point yet?
We need something to be better than WHM/SCH to equal all that is so much worse. That's why Taranok said CU should be superior in it's Regen/Shielding, because we have to Stand Still and do no other actions to use it. Whereas you can put down a Sacred Soil, Succur, your fairy can heal all in the same 1 second. Do you honestly believe that our shield should do less, and we shouldn't be able to do anything else while we shield?


You're ridiculous and your almost salient point is now lost. You really are just here to put down any enhancements so that your job stays secure. If you'll read my entire post, i said i don't want AST to be a hybrid WHM/SCH class, but it is, and if that's how it's going to stay then buffs like we are discussing are necessary! You really are just here to put down any enhancements so that your job stays secure.

Leave! Thanks

Has anybody brought an AST to Alex Savage?

I'm extremely curious on this job's performance in that.

There's a 30 second period where healing is very intensive in A1 (Raid AoE everybody 50% life, followed immediately with T13's Earthshaker-ish attack, followed immediately with stupid strong Tank Buster on both tanks, and during all this time, there's adds poking at your 4 DPS for 1~2k per auto attack.), and I'm very very curious whether an AST has the tools to weather this storm or not.

P/S : The above shit storm repeats itself every 90 seconds.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

Has anybody brought an AST to Alex Savage?

I'm extremely curious on this job's performance in that.

There's a 30 second period where healing is very intensive in A1 (Raid AoE everybody 50% life, followed immediately with T13's Earthshaker-ish attack, followed immediately with stupid strong Tank Buster on both tanks, and during all this time, there's adds poking at your 4 DPS for 1~2k per auto attack.), and I'm very very curious whether an AST has the tools to weather this storm or not.

P/S : The above shit storm repeats itself every 90 seconds.

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Sure it's been done by an AST here and there, but the healing is teeth gritting tight, and the cards aren't going to save you. And everyone including the AST wishes there was a WHM/SCH duo healing at the moment.

My group has around 5991 DPS average for Faust and I can't keep up both tanks with my fellow scholar. One major gripe I have at the moment is that Collective Unconscious is never on CD because I literally never have time to use it x_x 200 Potency heals vs. Benefic/Benefic II.

The new resource refresh (Ewer & Spire) is really nice though. Shuffle CD is quite nice too, but the fun Spire into Spire is still there. *tear*

edit: I'll go into detail with Faust later as I'm currently in as a WHM. Oppressor is fun \o/

edit: Post is here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...stro-in-savage

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Originally Posted by ckc22

I'm not the one name calling or getting rude. So who's really being childish here?

I'd love for AST to be good too. I just think giving them straight up copies of abilities from sch/whm and making them better than the original classes versions is not the right way to do it. But that's 80% of what you see around here.

Focus on the card buffs and speed healer/time mage theme if you really want to improve them and keep them unique.

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Oh and now you act as the victim
oh please. Leave.

I think the point is that Noct CU and Sacred Soil are the same, but CU has a smaller radius and requires the healer to stop and do nothing. It has horrible negatives compared to Sacred Soil that can be cast at range, and SCH can follow up with a Succor to further shield party members from AOE damage if they wanted - because it's not channeled hey!

Whats the benefit for making CU so much more limited compared to Sacred Soil? The fact that it can regen OR shield means nothing when you can't stance dance either - besides which it's hardly a positive, just switching what spell it's comparable to.

So how is expecting noct CU to be better in someway compared to Sacred Soil crazy, given the above downsides to the spell?

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Originally Posted by ckc22

And people act like I'm being crazy about the kind of stuff that gets posted here.

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You left unbolded the important part of Taranok's statement .. in full context, (s)he is saying that to counter balance the fact that AST has to channel, thus unable to act, unable to move, it should have a better effect. The statement isn't just saying CU should be better, just that the positive should match the negative.

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Originally Posted by Emonik

Leave! Thanks

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Thanks for impressing me with your well argued points and interesting ways to balance astrologians. "Make it better than whm/sch" genius.

I like how "Ast should get buffed so that its more unique aspects are stronger instead of just copying whm/sch" is me trolling and playing a victim?

This board is wacked.

Sorry that I'm not a fan of the massive class homogenization 3.0 has brought.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

Thanks for impressing me with your well argued points and interesting ways to balance astrologians. "Make it better than whm/sch" genius.

I like how "Ast should get buffed so that its more unique aspects are stronger instead of just copying whm/sch" is me trolling and playing a victim?

This board is wacked.

Sorry that I'm not a fan of the massive class homogenization 3.0 has brought.

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No your problem is you cherry pick one section of an entire post and act like a victim! I have posted numerous ideas in numerous threads about ways to make AST unique. See this is what we agree on! HOWEVER, and this is the part you aren't understanding, SE has made them a whm/sch mix and match class. So that's what we have to work with. So in light of the "homogenization", those of us asking for buffs are merely asking for balance. Right now all AST's have are watered down weakened version of SCH and WHM skills. So in order to be useful, and assuming that they aren't going to revamp the entire class, we are asking that those similar aspects come up to par with their counterparts.

The part that is you trolling is looking at our requests and ideas and replying that all we want are better versions of SCH and WHM skills! This is NOT true! Take, again, for example Collective Unconscious in Nocturnal Stance. We can both agree that this skill is just "Sacred Soil", except it's a smaller range, and it's a channeled skill that disallows the AST to take any other actions. Sacred Soil is a cast skill, that costs 1 Aetherflow stack, is instacast, has a chance to proc a free AoE heal, and allows you to continue to take action while it is down. These 2 skills are no where near balanced between the 2 classes. You have to acknowledge that!

Now, there are 3 ways to fix this:
1) Completely rework this skill for AST so it no longer is a bad sacred soil but something all together different! (This i believe is what you and I want, but it's also not what SE is going to do)
2) Buff Collective Unconscious to have either a better shield, or some other effect that balances it in regards to usability and utility. (Things here have been suggested, and you've shot them down with what i consider trolling)
3) Make it exactly the same as Sacred Soil and further homogenize. (This is probably what SE is going to end up doing, but no one actually wants that!)

All i'm asking is that you stop coming here and shooting down ideas that are based around the skills that SE gave us, because it's all we have to work with.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

Thanks for impressing me with your well argued points and interesting ways to balance astrologians. "Make it better than whm/sch" genius.

I like how "Ast should get buffed so that its more unique aspects are stronger instead of just copying whm/sch" is me trolling and playing a victim?

This board is wacked.

Sorry that I'm not a fan of the massive class homogenization 3.0 has brought.

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I don't think anybody want it to be better than WHM/SCH? but in order for ppl to actually play them they have to be able to do the latest content aka savage, and right now they just cannot. You can bring AST's to content when you outgear it (in fact they are perfect to bring when you outgear content), but for progression atm you CANNOT bring them, that is the problem.

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Originally Posted by Thela

I don't think anybody want it to be better than WHM/SCH? but in order for ppl to actually play them they have to be able to do the latest content aka savage, and right now they just cannot. You can bring AST's to content when you outgear it (in fact they are perfect to bring when you outgear content), but for progression atm you CANNOT bring them, that is the problem.

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My 2% (for both targets) wipe on Savage 1 says otherwise. Which would have been a kill if the monk didn't get killed by the giant laser beam.
Only took 2 lockouts to get that far. Will most likely beat it today (as Astro). We only do 2-3 lockouts a night however, I'm fairly certain by the amount of sub 5% pulls we got on the first night we will beat it.

None of the issues we have is healing, its all simply execution of mechanics.

This seems to be a learn to play astro issue more than it needing any changes. (Besides the garbage shield stance)

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Originally Posted by Staris

This seems to be a learn to play astro issue more than it needing any changes. (Besides the garbage shield stance)

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I'm curious as to how much the other healer is making up for your faults though. Skill will only take you so far. Ast is objectively worse (as in raw, mathematical side by side comparisons) than both of the other healers in virtually every aspect (we need to have perfect rng to even win the "best buffer" category).

Don't fool yourself, ast needs a lot of changes.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

I'm curious as to how much the other healer is making up for your faults though. Skill will only take you so far. Ast is objectively worse (as in raw, mathematical side by side comparisons) than both of the other healers in virtually every aspect (we need to have perfect rng to even win the "best buffer" category).

Don't fool yourself, ast needs a lot of changes.

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Ast can definitely use some changes but that doesn't stop "I'm curious as to how much the other healer is making up for your faults though" any less of a complete informal fallacy as well as the "CANNOT take them into raids". The bottom line is that even with marginally less healing output ast are capable of doing the savage content and some already have. The content has been setup to allow any reasonable job combination to be viable. If a "job" is making or breaking your team you need to reanalyze your strategy or your healers abilities. My team has went double ast (a less than desirable setup imo as id rather have a whm as other healer) thru just about every piece of content in this game and not had an issue with heals at all. So long as the healers know how to play the job it's a non-issue. The same thing goes for drk.

Now I will agree that my statics ast thinks they could use some buffs and changes and she was extremely happy with the ones that were just dropped,) but lets not pretend that because some people cannot efficiently play a class or it hasn't been mastered in 28 days that its fundamentally broken and incapable of raiding when people have already raided it successfully in various party make ups.

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Originally Posted by Emonik

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Point is, you cannot make AST on par with SCH on Nocturnal and WHM on Diurnal. While that would be "balanced", it would make both WHM and SCH obsolete as you could just roll an AST and be both with the flip of a switch.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Point is, you cannot make AST on par with SCH on Nocturnal and WHM on Diurnal. While that would be "balanced", it would make both WHM and SCH obsolete as you could just roll an AST and be both with the flip of a switch.

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While AST has cleared A1S with WHM partner and may be in a better place then people make it out to be, in no way would or should you see double AST even if the healing was on par with WHM in one sec and SCH in the other. The same way you do not see double WARs, healers work better with two different healers. Right now the preferred combo is WHHM/SCH and most groups are not taking AST at all. The only success I have seen is WHM/AST however which shows that AST cannot handle being a primary healer and only WHM right now seems to be able to. Not that I think AST needs to heal like a WHM and SCH in each sect, just that in no way would you make the other healers obsolete. Also the play style is completely different between the three classes, with SCH being the most different with the pet and the raw dps and healing of the WHM.

Well, my static is currently sporting SCH/AST. Admittedly, it is hard - and we have cleared T8 savage (albeit with WHM/SCH). Will see how we manage after we practice a bit.

I'm pretty confident that AST will be brought to where it needs to be. The unfortunate thing is that we have to wait. I think the issue with AST, and really with all the new jobs in Heavensward, is that they were designed with level 60 in mind...rather than with level 50 in mind with awesome buffs from 50-60. The difference in mindset can make a huge difference.

The other classes were designed to be complete at level 50, then when the cap was raised were given additional perks and skills to keep them viable/relevant/made more awesome. The new jobs were designed to be complete at level 60. So it's less "My cool job just got more awesome at level 60", and more "Now that i'm level 60 I can keep up".

At least this is the feeling I get. It will take some time, but hopefully AST and the other new jobs should be getting that awesome feeling in time.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Point is, you cannot make AST on par with SCH on Nocturnal and WHM on Diurnal. While that would be "balanced", it would make both WHM and SCH obsolete as you could just roll an AST and be both with the flip of a switch.

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Would that really make the other 2 obsolete though? If all 3 of them were at the same level, people would play their favourite healer anyways, with non-impact card buffs adding just a tiny plus if bringing an AST. Our cards are not that game breaking and even less with their randomness.

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Originally Posted by Tyla_Esmeraude

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Most people aren't asking for carbon copies of SCH/WHM moves either. They just want the aspected Benefics to be on par with their SCH/WHM counterparts which still leaves AST wanting for....everything else SCH/WHM has.

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Originally Posted by Tyla_Esmeraude

Would that really make the other 2 obsolete though? If all 3 of them were at the same level, people would play their favourite healer anyways, with non-impact card buffs adding just a tiny plus if bringing an AST. Our cards are not that game breaking and even less with their randomness.

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It depends what you mean by "same level". Making diurnal pour out as much raw healing as WHM and nocturnal as much potential mitigation as SCH yes, it would make those two classes obsolete as with AST you would be able to do both of those things as well as them, and those two things are what it is needed in raids, mostly. Everything else is just added fluff.
Set aside the "people would play their favourite". No, people will play whatever is FOTM or simply whatever is more powerful/versatile.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

It depends what you mean by "same level". Making diurnal pour out as much raw healing as WHM and nocturnal as much potential mitigation as SCH yes, it would make those two classes obsolete as with AST you would be able to do both of those things as well as them, and those two things are what it is needed in raids, mostly. Everything else is just added fluff.
Set aside the "people would play their favourite". No, people will play whatever is FOTM or simply whatever is more powerful/versatile.

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People are already picking the more powerful/versatile classes....that's kind of the problem here.

I'm not sure why you think having the classes equal in potency suddenly translates to having AST be better then the other two.

And, just because AST can fit in both roles, doesn't mean we get to play both. Technically, the role AST is suppose to play is based off the other healer in the party. We don't really have much say in the matter as it's usually pre-determined before we enter an instance (let alone during a boss fight). Sadly, It just so happens that Nocturnal is so bad right now that most AST will play as a double WHM combo then pretend to be a SCH.

AST/AST combo is also another whole mess of failure to go over. It sure won't be becoming the second coming anytime in the future.

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Originally Posted by Codek

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AST brings more to the table than just healing. They are also a buffing class. While their buffs don't seem to be anything special at the moment, the entire point is that they bring something different to a party. It feels as thought a majority of Astrologian threads and ideas just want Astrologian to be as good as a Scholar in Nocturnal and as good as a White Mage in Diurnal while still being able to support the party with buffs.

AST has been out for a little over a month, with Savage only being out for two days as of writing this. I don't even think players are able to properly judge how good Astrologian is. Remember when Scholar first came out?

The point is, AST seems to be a support healer type. With this in mind, I would expect the overall healing potency of AST to be lower because they ideally support the party with buffs. If anything their "buffs" need a buff.

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Originally Posted by lordparanoia

The Dev Team doesn't love astrologian, that's all. :(

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They don't love healers in general, have you seen our glamor choices?

Nun, Nun, Nun, Nun, Orthodox set, Nun, Nun, Nun

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Originally Posted by ckc22

Good lord, huge buffs and more whining. Maybe you should actually play with some of the changes actually feel before continuing to complain endlessly.

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I didnt write 19 pages all by myself. I'm not saying i don't like ast. These buffs are not "huge", because lightspeed was a nerf and Now it is "ok". spread is not a buff and ewer is not a buff but an adjustement.
it's just the starting point to improve this job. And i'm not the only one who thinks so.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Point is, you cannot make AST on par with SCH on Nocturnal and WHM on Diurnal. While that would be "balanced", it would make both WHM and SCH obsolete as you could just roll an AST and be both with the flip of a switch.

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Exactly. Inb4 you get called a troll by everyone on this board though.

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Originally Posted by Crater

That was the fundamental problem with the class, and they got absolutely nothing to address that problem.

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Agreed, but I don't think that Square is anywhere close to done with tweaking ASTs in the least. Understandably they released tweaks to the class with Savage, but that's all they can do with the data they have. I imagine once they have more data regarding Savage outcomes with AST that more tweaks to the abilities they said they'd be changing will be coming out in the coming weeks. Im just grateful for what I got right now as they could have just held off completely until AFTER ASTs get pretty much banished from Savage runs.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Point is, you cannot make AST on par with SCH on Nocturnal and WHM on Diurnal. While that would be "balanced", it would make both WHM and SCH obsolete as you could just roll an AST and be both with the flip of a switch.

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I think that's more a whm specific concern. Since most of ast's moves are straight from the whm playbook. Not really so with sch, even in noct stance, because there's more to scholar than just shields.

I wouldn't mind seeing an overall 5-10% buff to the cards. That, and increase the potency on Benefic II and maybe increase the base potency on ED to 500 if it's on only emergency heal. As of right now, while I'm not into the 60 content with my AST, it feels like a free Benefic II. Meanwhile Scholars get 3 free 600 potency heal every minute.

Nocturnal sect could use to revamping. Definitely increase potency across the board. It's not worth using.

WARNING(s): I have not read all of the 72 different AST threads, but probably about 61 of them. Also I'm not in any way a class designer thing, so there's that.

What about a rework on Noct Stance all together? We as AST want to be different from WHM and SCH, but we also want to be as equally desired. With that in mind, what if we kept diurnal sect the way it is. Sure it lacks the raw healing power of the whm, and it lacks the mitigation of the sch, but with suggested noct changes, maybe that is okay.

What if in Noct we kind of reversed where are strengths are. In diurnal, our healing is decent, but the support from our cards, that which is supposed to set us apart, is pretty miniscule at best. So what if in Noct, we changed that. Make our heals still there. We are still healers, but make them not nearly as effective. To counter that, tremendously boost our support ability. In noct, make our card support as potent as our healing is in diurnal, but our healing ability as strong as our support is in diurnal. Also allow sect changing during fights but with a somewhat longer cooldown.

I think this would help give us a more defined role without replacing either of the current jobs and without us being OP. We can be decent backup healers during heal checks with little support, and we can be good support to help with DPS checks, but sacrificing our heal ability and letting our partner pick up more there. I think this also would add a little more strategy to the job since we would need to use good judgment and still have a bit of that risk factor.

@jojober

Interesting idea you have there, but this will mean that AST's only viable partner is SCH in tough content, as your new Noct Sect provides no mitigation tools to help with tank busters etc.

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Originally Posted by Codek

I'm not sure why you think having the classes equal in potency suddenly translates to having AST be better then the other two.

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Not "better" per se, but versatility is still a tool that only AST has. It might not help once you are in the field, but it is still a peculiarity that must be taken into account. Of course we could argue that since we can level both WHM and SCH on the same character, this kind of versatility is useless for any serious player - but that is a different can of worms. Point is, AST needs to pay for this versatility somehow.

Mind you, I am a SCH healing alex savage with an AST. I am fully aware of its issues. I am just saying that simply boosting potency, while a possible solution to make AST more viable, would not be very smart in the long run. We need something unique that does not kill AST identity. i.e., something with cards.

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Originally Posted by jojober

WARNING(s):

What if in Noct we kind of reversed where are strengths are. In diurnal, our healing is decent, but the support from our cards, that which is supposed to set us apart, is pretty miniscule at best. So what if in Noct, we changed that. Make our heals still there. We are still healers, but make them not nearly as effective. To counter that, tremendously boost our support ability. In noct, make our card support as potent as our healing is in diurnal, but our healing ability as strong as our support is in diurnal. Also allow sect changing during fights but with a somewhat longer cooldown.

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I have the impresion that SE is totally lost on how to fix Nocturnal Stance, so any idea like this it will help for sure.

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Originally Posted by jojober

What about a rework on Noct Stance all together?

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The problem with this is that if you make AST card buffs too powerful, it will trivialize dps checks in progression fights. This means that fights will either be always cleared with a nocturnal AST, or dev will need to balance checks keeping into account AST buffs - basically making AST mandatory.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

The problem with this is that if you make AST card buffs too powerful, it will trivialize dps checks in progression fights. This means that fights will either be always cleared with a nocturnal AST, or dev will need to balance checks keeping into account AST buffs - basically making AST mandatory.

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I think it could be a perfectly fine trade to sacrifice the ability to pass heal checks to make a better (more risky) push for DPS checks. They would have to start making some content where pushing phases quickly is discouraged though...Which is kind of counter intuitive.

AST really needs some niche that they can fill. With the current tool kit, the only thing I can possibly see is mobility which is a good one but not stressed enough currently by the content.

This is an MMO built on being able to easily swap between classes freely. Even though it's heavily discouraged in other MMO's, I honestly believe that SE should build different end game fights with specific classes in mind. Create the requirement that players can cover different roles between encounters.

As it is now, it's nearly impossible for them to balance all end game content so that 3 healers will be equally desired for the 2 spots available for boss fights (at least, not without a complete re-work of all 3 classes).

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

The problem with this is that if you make AST card buffs too powerful, it will trivialize dps checks in progression fights. This means that fights will either be always cleared with a nocturnal AST, or dev will need to balance checks keeping into account AST buffs - basically making AST mandatory.

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The biggest and saddest irony right now is that people in alex savage are reporting that the DPS rises with SCH/WHM over bringing an AST because the SCH can afford to put in so much more DPS, and more DPS is supposed to be the entire point of the AST.

I think they can do this one of two ways to fix AST:

-Bring all of its potencies in line with the other healing classes and call it a day.

-Go absolutely ham on the cards and make them good enough to at least justify bringing an AST along

Remember, the actual value of AST card buffs is divided by 6 to get the real average amount of extra whatever an AST will bring to a fight.

You're not getting 10% DPS for 15 seconds, because you're going to average drawing that card 17% of the time, so it's closer to 1.67% more DPS given to a single target over the course of the fight.

And as I said, groups bringing everything but AST are doing better in the DPS department.

If AST buffs are going to barely be significant, then the healing potency should be almost on par with SCH/WHM, and since ASTs are queuing as healers for DF, that's the much, MUCH safer way to go.

Either that or the AST's buffs need to be VERY significant, which will promote a more risky playstyle.

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Originally Posted by jojober

WARNING(s): I have not read all of the 72 different AST threads, but probably about 61 of them. Also I'm not in any way a class designer thing, so there's that.

What about a rework on Noct Stance all together? We as AST want to be different from WHM and SCH, but we also want to be as equally desired. With that in mind, what if we kept diurnal sect the way it is. Sure it lacks the raw healing power of the whm, and it lacks the mitigation of the sch, but with suggested noct changes, maybe that is okay.

What if in Noct we kind of reversed where are strengths are. In diurnal, our healing is decent, but the support from our cards, that which is supposed to set us apart, is pretty miniscule at best. So what if in Noct, we changed that. Make our heals still there. We are still healers, but make them not nearly as effective. To counter that, tremendously boost our support ability. In noct, make our card support as potent as our healing is in diurnal, but our healing ability as strong as our support is in diurnal. Also allow sect changing during fights but with a somewhat longer cooldown.

I think this would help give us a more defined role without replacing either of the current jobs and without us being OP. We can be decent backup healers during heal checks with little support, and we can be good support to help with DPS checks, but sacrificing our heal ability and letting our partner pick up more there. I think this also would add a little more strategy to the job since we would need to use good judgment and still have a bit of that risk factor.

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I love this idea.

Either we need to be a vanilla but CAPABLE healer with mild buffs or we need to be a weaker healer with AMAZING buffs that could genuinely end a fight faster.

Right now we're a weaker healer with mild buffs...