Bard and Wanderer's Minuet use it

lol yeah ok.... whatever makes you sleep at night
Fact has been even before changes to playstyle were done there was many very bad Bards out there, ran with one the other day that was only doing like 200 dps, god that was awful

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

I bet that I can out dps you without using WM in most fights. At least if randoms from pf and df are any indication of how wm bards play.

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I think this is actually true in a lot of cases because you can weave off-gcd abilities in 100% easier and have auto attacks.

30% seems like a lot but the loss of auto attacks makes it less significant. With the reduction in potency of the iron jaws and emp arrow... Its hard to say.

I hink there is a dps increase using WM but I do not believe it significant enough to warrant use.

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

I bet that I can out dps you without using WM in most fights. At least if randoms from pf and df are any indication of how wm bards play.

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I can out-dps most df blm by spamming blizz1. That doesn't mean I'm playing well, or that I shouldn't bother trying to play better.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

I hink there is a dps increase using WM but I do not believe it significant enough to warrant use.

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you're a dps class. Any increase is enough to warrant use.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

I can out-dps most df blm by spamming blizz1. That doesn't mean I'm playing well, or that I shouldn't bother trying to play better.



you're a dps class. Any increase is enough to warrant use.

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Then get a bard and use WM. Have fun with it.

Me? I already play better.

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

Then get a bard and use WM. Have fun with it.

Me? I already play better.

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Do whatever you want. I'm just saying that if you're comparing yourself to bad players that doesn't make you good. If you used wm properly you'd do higher dps than what you do now. That's just mathematically true. You don't wanna use it, fine. But you not using it is a net loss no matter what comparisons you try to make.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Do whatever you want. I'm just saying that if you're comparing yourself to bad players that doesn't make you good. If you used wm properly you'd do higher dps than what you do now. That's just mathematically true. You don't wanna use it, fine. But you not using it is a net loss no matter what comparisons you try to make.

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If you can prove that statement, I'll change my mind. Do you main bard? Do you have parses and maybe a rotation you are using? I have yet to see an increase in any real fights. I tried it before and after the changes. Ogcd usage and auto attack elimination, all with less mobility = no damage increase for me.

Personally, I use Wanderer's Minuet when going through trash mobs in a dungeon or when I'm playing solo doing daily stuff like hunt marks or beastmen tribe quests. Most of the time I'm just standing there anyway, might as well have it up for increased dmg to get through those mobs quicker to get to the bosses or to finish a quest objective. For the bosses, I turn it off since I find myself running around the place, dodging AOEs quite a bit.

Each bard has their own play style, this is mine and I main bard.

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

If you can prove that statement, I'll change my mind. Do you main bard? Do you have parses and maybe a rotation you are using? I have yet to see an increase in any real fights. I tried it before and after the changes. Ogcd usage and auto attack elimination, all with less mobility = no damage increase for me.

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Here's a video from a better brd than myself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Ub0DVUp2c

One of the first lines of the video: "Let's get one thing straight, Wanderer's Minuet is not an option"

Besides that, let me turn the question back around: do you have any theorycrafting or comparitive parses (not to terrible players) that prove in any way that it's a dps loss? Anything to convince me other than "I think I'm a good brd and my gut says it's bad"? You can still use your ogcd, just not 2 per attack, auto attack's are easily made up for by the dmg buff, and mobility is just a playstyle preference with no bearing on your dps.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

30% seems like a lot but the loss of auto attacks makes it less significant.

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Actually, a flat 30% damage boost to all of your abilities is nothing to scoff at. It includes everything from oGCD abilities and your DoTs as well. Sure, without WM, you can do double weaving instead of single weaving, but what happens when you run out of oGCD abilities to use?

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Did you open the video? :P

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I edited my last post but I don't have sound at work. My headphones are broke and I can't listen to it without them. The video doesn't seem to have a comparison or a parse though. It looks like you are taking his word for it while not taking mine... I play the class. I see the dps... It's not like Im arguing from your PoV, as someone who doesn't play the class. That's why I'm asking you where you are getting your information. It clearly isn't coming from first hand knowledge.

I didn't even argue with you on which was better. I said that I don't have more dps with WM. If you can show me that it's better as you aim, I will change my opinion of it. There is no argument if you don't have that information. You are telling me that I'm wrong without even playing the class...

"You don't lose dps when you have to move and can no longer use skills on the move! It's just a prefernce!"... Honestly, I don't even know why I continued after that lol...

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

"You don't lose dps when you have to move and can no longer use skills on the move! It's just a prefernce!"... Honestly, I don't even know why I continued after that lol...

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If I reworded all of your arguments in a different context I could make you look dumb as well, but that gets us nowhere.

Watch the vid with sound and come back. The vid is my argument, and right now you're just arguing against what my argument "looks like". Whether you're right or wrong that's not a great position to argue from.

In the spirit of rewording arguments: "If I ignore your argument then my argument is better!" I could've told you before all this started that I can't convince you if you just cover your ears and shout "LALALALA" to any evidence I propose. If we ignore physics then I can prove that gravity doesn't exist, but where I'm arguing from is important.

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

It looks like you are taking his word for it while not taking mine... I play the class. I see the dps.

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He's asking you to post your proof of your claim that you deal more damage without Wanderer's Minuet. There's literally nothing to support your claim other than what you have said. It isn't reliable proof saying that you just do. And who's to say you arent going to intentionally sabotage your WM parse just to prove a point?

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

He's asking you to post your proof of your claim that you deal more damage without Wanderer's Minuet. There's literally nothing to support your claim other than what you have said. It isn't reliable proof saying that you just do. And who's to say you arent going to intentionally sabotage your WM parse?

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Which is exactly why that wouldn't be proof of anything. If I post a better parse without WM, you just come with these conspiracies. My proof is that I play the class and the people who disagree with me don't.

"I will say you are wrong and you need to post proof!... Real intelligent...

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

If I reworded all of your arguments in a different context I could make you look dumb as well, but that gets us nowhere.

Watch the vid with sound and come back. The vid is my argument, and right now you're just arguing against what my argument "looks like". Whether you're right or wrong that's not a great position to argue from.

In the spirit of rewording arguments: "If I ignore your argument then my argument is better!" No shit, I could've told you before all this started that I can't convince you if you just cover your ears and shout "LALALALA" to any evidence I propose.

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Then try rewording the mobility thing differently... Go ahead...

So does the video have comparisons or is it just a guy making claims? Again, the video doesn't show any proof... Sound won't change that... "evidence" lol... School must have been hard for you.

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

Which is exactly why that wouldn't be proof of anything. If I post a better parse without WM, you just come with these conspiracies.

"I will say you are wrong and you need to post proof!... Real intelligent...

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you could post it with a vid :P

What kind of proof do you expect from me? And why is it not fair to expect the same burden of proof from you?

If you want a legitimate discussion, cool it with the insults. They don't make any point, they just distract from the actual subject.

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

Which is exactly why that wouldn't be proof of anything. If I post a better parse without WM, you just come with these conspiracies.

"I will say you are wrong and you need to post proof!... Real intelligent...

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I was only repeating what small information you gave to us;

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

I play the class. It's my main. I'm not getting a dps increase.

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Again, word of mouth is not reliable. That is literally the only "proof" you gave us. You say that you do more damage without Wanderer's Minuet. So, give us these numbers you claim to be better, and then we can compare it to this other person who actually used WM.

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

I said that I don't have more dps with WM. I said I'm out dpsing others in groups. You said I'm doing it wrong. I asked you for proof that I'm doing it wrong. You refused to provide it.... What kind of proof do you want from me exactly? Are you saying I'm actually parsing better with WM but just lying to you? I really don't get what your point is.

Specifically, I said I would change what I was doing if you could show me that I'm doing it wrong. As in, someone parsing more with wm and a rotation to do so. I can't really change my mind on it if I don't know how to use it properly. If you are going to claim that I'm wrong, why wouldn't I ask for further explanation?

It's very clear that you are just an argumentative clown who is talking out of his ass though.

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Well AdamFyi posted a parse vid. The vid I posted went into a lot of detail, but you can't listen to it (how was I supposed to know?).

I'm not claiming that you're lying, but by saying you do more dps without wm you're making a positive claim, and those require evidence. Asking someone to back up their claim is not the same as accusing them of lying. I don't have a point by asking you to back up your claims, we just need to get past that before we can really even start a debate. Your argument so far is tautological. You have yet to make any actual arguments; all you've done is state claims and then say that you're right.

Again, cool it with the insults. They don't make your point any more or less legitimate, it's just needlessly aggressive. I haven't done or said anything to insult you personally (except maybe accuse you of overusing ellipses; sorry if that was over the line). I'd appreciate the same level of civility and respect.

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

Mal, you aren't even getting responses anymore. You didn't post any proof and you don't play bard. You can't be taken seriously...

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I did post proof, you just can't listen to it. Then AdamFyi posted proof and I referenced his. So far you're the only one refusing to post proof, because me asking you to provide evidence to your claims is apparently some sort of personal insult. Burden of proof isn't some misdirect tactic I'm using. It's a thing in debates. If you make a positive claim, then the burden of proof is on you.

Again... please stop with the insults. So far you've insulted me at the end of each post for quite a while now. Each time I've politely asked you to stop. They serve no purpose except to try and elicit an immature response from me. There's no feasible way to think that they're improving the quality of discussion. I understand if you're agitated or annoyed, those things happen in arguments, but after me pointing it out and requesting you to stop it becomes less and less justifiable.

well if you are stating that there is no damage increase with Minuet in non movement fights (or fights with little movement) and your earlier statement that you already play better, yeah NO

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Originally Posted by Maero

well if you are stating that there is no damage increase with Minuet in non movement fights (or fights with little movement) and your earlier statement that you already play better, yeah NO

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Why would this even matter on a training dummy or in non movement fights? If you are playing the easiest content and kicking people for not using WM... lol... How sad.

Other than that, do you have some parses to prove that you are better? I can't post any while at work, but I'd love to see what you are doing. I can get some when I get home if you want to go that route.

Mal, you aren't even getting responses anymore. You didn't post any proof and you don't play bard. You can't be taken seriously...

You: You are doing it wrong

Me: Show me

You: The burdon of proof is on you!

You can't get much dumber than that...

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

Other than that, do you have some parses to prove that you are better? I can't post any while at work, but I'd love to see what you are doing. I can get some when I get home if you want to go that route.

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As usual, the same repetitive response. Your claim that you do more damage without WM is only from word of mouth; nothing more than that. You are currently unable to post any proof of this at this time, so give it a rest until you can provide your proof. The least you could do is give an approximation of how much you actually do for us to compare with this video that has already been brought up.

I think people forget that when you start the Archer class, the game literally tells you (through that black dialogue box), that you as an Archer, can move AND attack at the same time UNLIKE OTHER CLASSES.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

As usual, the same repetitive response. Your claim that you do more damage without WM is only from word of mouth; nothing more than that. You are currently unable to post any proof of this at this time, so give it a rest until you can provide your proof. The least you could do is give an approximation of how much you actually do for us to compare with this video that has already been brought up.

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But he already stated he is a better Bard and does more dps without Minuet....
;)

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Originally Posted by Maero

But he already stated he is a better Bard and does more dps without Minuet....
;)

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Interestingly enough, if his claims of his damage output being stronger than someone else who uses the Wanderer's Minuet is true, it means this whole "Bard being forced to use WM and adapt to playstyle change" fiasco is unfounded. If the damage is that high enough without it, then other Bards have no reason to complain about their playstyle changing - because they literally don't have to use the Wanderer's Minuet anymore.

;)

Edit:

Don't worry, I know you were being sarcastic. I just added something a lil' extra in.

haha yeah i know and i was being sarcastic.
Juts like that other guy that complains in every single Bard thread multiple times, quotes and insults people and refuses to use Minuet because.... he does not like the playstyle
Adapt or be a lolBard people

I dislike Wander's Minuet, it basicly destroyed the Bard playstyle that I enjoyed so much in 2.0, but I know that not using it means I will be harming my teammates more then the enemies, so I use it.

Lets hope they bring back the 2.0 Bard playstyle back in 4.0 or bring in a class that played like 2.0 Bard.

...Are we really necroing a year-old thread? >w>

I absolutely hate... no, I loathe Wanderer's Minuet.

I'll use it in dungeons and raids, because I have to, but I'm never happy about it. It's no fun just standing around waiting to "cast" arrows. Same goes for machinist and gauss barrels.

I play a ranged class to be mobile and quick and HW ripped the rug right out from under me on that.

I really wish they would branch archer into Ranger and let us be more fleet-footed, set traps and the like. I'd eat that right up. So much more exciting.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

...Are we really necroing a year-old thread? >w>

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Just to insult someone that posted over a year ago, too. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

...Are we really necroing a year-old thread? >w>

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Guess the thread was slow in casting the next reply ;)

I remember this one.

I still think WM and GB are lame. If BRDs and MCHs running around was too powerful just make a few of their more powerful abilities cast by default. To simulate lining up that high damage super shot.

Most of your abilities suddenly needing to be cast at 52 is way too jarring and absolute. Machinist especially has no excuse for letting you utilize the run and gun playstyle for so long, the job was made especially for 3.0.

The correct way is to switch it on and off depending on what's happening. Some times you need to run around like a crazy person sometimes you can stand and shoot.
Also I hate what they did to the job and it's my main.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I remember this one.

I still think WM and GB are lame. If BRDs and MCHs running around was too powerful just make a few of their more powerful abilities cast by default. To simulate lining up that high damage super shot.

Most of your abilities suddenly needing to be cast at 52 is way too jarring and absolute. Machinist especially has no excuse for letting you utilize the run and gun playstyle for so long, the job was made especially for 3.0.

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atleast MCH can get away with ammo and rapid fire. with enough skillspeed though it doesn't feel that bad as bard, but it's still clunky and i hope 4.0 gives us some sort of fix - i'm sure SE is aware of all the WM/GB complaints due to the sudden playstyle shift during 3.0 launch week til 3.1 and hope they'd be careful not to repeat the same mistake again

Reading the first page is funny....I bet they've all reformed into castors now MWAHAHAHA

To be honest I don't get the hate. I only leveled to about 34 before I got bored before HW. All I heard from everyone is "Bard is ruined" "it sucks now" and I kinda just decided to follow that idea and ignore it further. Got bored and leveled it and once I got a few more skills I started to enjoy it. When I got WM it was a change but honestly I felt no real change in combat. You still have to wait for the CD anyway which by the time you cast off you still have like .5 secs before you can recast anyway so still have time to move or maneuver in between.

Just overall, I personally am loving Bard as is. MCH on the other hand, maybe same if I get it to 60 but something about it as a whole still rubs me wrong.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

MCH on the other hand, maybe same if I get it to 60 but something about it as a whole still rubs me wrong.

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Same. I've got it sat half way into 58 and I just look at it and think 'uuuuuuugh'.

Still, so close, got to finish it!

Wow this been necro from the era before they buffed Bard and MCH

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Same. I've got it sat half way into 58 and I just look at it and think 'uuuuuuugh'.

Still, so close, got to finish it!

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MCH GB is actually mostly unnoticable at max level. You can spend a entire fight with GB on even during a AoE heavy boss fight due to it have a lot of instant cast skills with GB on. Only time there is any 1.5 sec cast is on split shot, hot shot, and lead shot. Every other skill remains instant cast and using Rapid fire will turn split, hot, and lead shot into instant cast as well.

Always load ammo using Quick Reload and Reload so you can always use slug shot and clean shot since those two skills are instant cast. Weaving in the GCD skills is also important since those are instant cast as well. MCH is considered one of the highest Burst Damage Jobs now which is why it is in the Raid tier.

MCH with GB on is far more mobile than a Bard with WM on to the point that you don't need to take it off to stay mobile.

Wanderer's Minuet is my best friend! I use it all the time when my bard goes into battle; it really does make the dps stronger. I think the main reason why some bards refuse to use it because they can't stay still which I don't get why they have to move around so much. The only time I move is when there's an AOE below me or the tank is pulling the mobs away from my attack range.

Who brought this back


A year later and I still like WM. There's still no reason to NOT use it.

WM is much more aesthetically pleasing when you realize that it's not really 'casting', but your character 'aiming' the shot.

Machinist flailing their gun around like it's a magic wand I have no excuse though, however.

I use WM to avoid holding groups back but I still hate it.
Bard at 50 felt very fast and fluid while at 60 it feels slow and sluggish to me. I'm still convinced they created this system for Mch and then stapled it onto Bard for balance or whatever.
At least I can still run around in Palace of the Dead lower levels and synced content I guess.

I don't play BRD much but I play MCH, and to me it's more fun having the ability to freely move while shooting, but at least with MCH if they combo their slug shot and clean shot it's instant cast. Plus they have gauss round and ricochet which are instant cast (while the bard's abilities that need Wanderer's have cast time I think).