Once you start giving out the Carbontwines

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Then it wouldn't matter which one you got since i130 and i120 look the same when dead on the floor. xD

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Which has more room to make mistakes, the one with more HP/DEF or the one with less? Naturally a raid wipe sized mistake won't make a diff, but smaller mistakes are more easily overcome when you have the health pool to eat them.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Which has more room to make mistakes, the one with more HP/DEF or the one with less? Naturally a raid wipe sized mistake won't make a diff, but smaller mistakes are more easily overcome when you have the health pool to eat them.

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I see what point you're trying to make, but I still don't agree. I've healed groups that had a fully geared out dps and one that was lesser than that. One was expected to perform amazingly because he was a dreadwyrm blm and the other was a regular blm that had some soldiery and some poetics (barely i115). What happened was that the dreadwyrm blm was a burden to our group because he could barely dodge anything while our other blm was just fine. He took a reasonable number of hits to the face. He had less HP/DEF than the other but required much less attention.

If you're bad as i130, no matter your gear, I'll kick you and call it a day. Bad i120 and bad i130 are equal under the gaze of a healer who needs to give them special attention.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

I see what point you're trying to make, but I still don't agree. I've healed groups that had a fully geared out dps and one that was lesser than that. One was expected to perform amazingly because he was a dreadwyrm blm and the other was a regular blm that had some soldiery and some poetics (barely i115). What happened was that the dreadwyrm blm was a burden to our group because he could barely dodge anything while our other blm was just fine. He took a reasonable number of hits to the face. He had less HP/DEF than the other but required much less attention.

If you're bad as i130, no matter your gear, I'll kick you and call it a day. Bad i120 and bad i130 are equal under the gaze of a healer who needs to give them special attention.

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You're comparing a skilled 115 to an unskilled 130. With skill completely removed from the equation, the higher ilevel is naturally the smarter choice.

I said in the first post to assume both were bad until proven otherwise, because that's what most people looking for a PUG member do. They don't know you from any other random player and if they're taking a chance on a random, they're going to go with the better geared one.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

For the same reason raiders want 130 gear, it's not mandatory to complete final coil either, but you still want it.

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Having the best gear in the game is the reward for doing final coil. It's the design of the game, it is what the game rewards you with. Making the highest tier gear obtainable through mindless hunts and easy upgrades devalues the effort and reward set out by the game. I'm not even a FCOB raider and I see that. Inherently no one needs that final tier but when it is the reward for doing the hardest content in the game, it's not hard to see how devaluing that reward has it's flaws as a system.

I really don't care because I'm not driven by gear progression but some are. And I can see their side on this matter.

i haven't read every post but I think everyone here has missed the point. My request was for i130 WoD gear in 2.51+. Basically when they have already unlocked Fcob and when Fcob is already old news (which it kinda already is) so I don't understand why people are against old content by that point. I mean are people still pissed at nerfed coil and scob? lol. It's how SE will deal with content and gear. All I was asking for was to make WoD gear viable not just as glamour.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

Having the best gear in the game is the reward for doing final coil. It's the design of the game, it is what the game rewards you with. Making the highest tier gear obtainable through mindless hunts and easy upgrades devalues the effort and reward set out by the game. I'm not even a FCOB raider and I see that. Inherently no one needs that final tier but when it is the reward for doing the hardest content in the game, it's not hard to see how devaluing that reward has it's flaws as a system.

I really don't care because I'm not driven by gear progression but some are. And I can see their side on this matter.

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Cry me a river honestly, if your effort is so worthless that it's devalued by someone else obtaining the gear more easily than you did this is not the game for you. Or any vertical progression mmo to be honest, the entire system in this game is built around gear becoming obsolete and easier to obtain patch-by-patch. That's the system we're stuck with and it's not changing any time soon. If you expect the gear you get this patch to be that hard to obtain forever, you're going to have a bad time.

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Originally Posted by Taei

Basically when they have already unlocked Fcob and when Fcob is already old news (which it kinda already is) so I don't understand why people are against old content by that point.

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FCOB isn't already old news. It's still the most current content with many groups still working on their first win. So you don't understand why people are so against it? Well it's because you don't understand that it's still the top tier most relevant content. It seems to be you have a fundamental misunderstanding about the state of the current content. The only time this will no longer be relevant is literally the day the expansion launches. 3.0+ Not 2.51. No 130 gear should ever drop from this dungeon. That's horrifically imbalanced.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

FCOB isn't already old news. It's still the most current content with many groups still working on their first win. So you don't understand why people are so against it? Well it's because you don't understand that it's still the top tier most relevant content. It seems to be you have a fundamental misunderstanding about the state of the current content. The only time this will no longer be relevant is literally the day the expansion launches. 3.0+ Not 2.51. No 130 gear should ever drop from this dungeon. That's horrifically imbalanced.

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There are plenty of people still working on their T5 clears, that doesn't mean first coil isn't old news. We're already coming up on 3.0 in the next few months, final coil has been on farm for most people running it for several months already. It's old news, get over it.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

There are plenty of people still working on their T5 clears, that doesn't mean first coil isn't old news. We're already coming up on 3.0 in the next few months, final coil has been on farm for most people running it for several months already. It's old news, get over it.

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Keep telling yourself in order to goto sleep tonight. Most groups I know are still progressing forward and haven't even been to t13. Some didn't beat t9 for a whole month or more after 2.4 released and are just now reach 11 or 12.
You're completely incorrect and you're making crazy assumptions about what players are doing. The handful of groups that already beat it are hardly the entire raiding community. The content hasn't even been out for the full 6 month cycle it was intended for.
Just because a few people are beating DOES NOT I ANY WAY mean it isn't still the top end content in the game and that it isn't run by crap loads of people every single week. Trying to tie it to T5 like that is a straw man I refuse to acknowledge. They are very clearly, to any person with common sense, at very different levels in progression.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

final coil has been on farm for most people running it for several months already

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By all means supply a source. Cause I think you're clearly talking out of your rear about a statistic you clearly made up on the spot.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Cry me a river honestly, if your effort is so worthless that it's devalued by someone else obtaining the gear more easily than you did this is not the game for you. Or any vertical progression mmo to be honest, the entire system in this game is built around gear becoming obsolete and easier to obtain patch-by-patch. That's the system we're stuck with and it's not changing any time soon. If you expect the gear you get this patch to be that hard to obtain forever, you're going to have a bad time.

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Dude, I suggested taking another look at a different perspective. You are the one on the attack because someone has a different perspecive. And I'm quite aware of the state of the game and how vertical progression works. But SE devalues the the reward before offering up new content and additional rewards. Well it is my opinion that it is flawed. (It's cool its an opinion, I don't require you to share it)

I described a counter point to why it might matter to some but it's cool you can attack me for trying to rationalize another point of view :) don't worry I can be your virtual punching bag.

@ Kiroh

Except it isn't old news. SHOCK. T5 is old because there is a harder difficulty raid after it. Is there anything harder than FCoB out right now? Be quiet if you can't use some elementary logic. Farm does not mean it is old. It means they are farming it. I abhor how people in this thread are mix-matching words and not using their actual definitions. Tiggy is right. The day ... the literal day 3.0 is released (not the SEASON it is estimated to be released in - oh and btw this means the Devs can change it to whatever season they want maybe Winter because there is no actual numerical date to hold them accountable to) is when FCoB will be "old". Even then casuals will call for harder nerfs than they're going to receive because they don't want to work for their iLvl. They want it handed to them.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

Dude, I suggested taking another look at a different perspective. You are the one on the attack because someone has a different perspecive. And I'm quite aware of the state of the game and how vertical progression works. But SE devalues the the reward before offering up new content and additional rewards. Well it is my opinion that it is flawed. (It's cool its an opinion, I don't require you to share it)

I described a counter point to why it might matter to some but it's cool you can attack me for trying to rationalize another point of view :) don't worry I can be your virtual punching bag.

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The very nature of a vertical progression MMOs means your opinion, however cool you think it is, is wrong. Your belief in something has no effect whatsoever on the outcome, no matter how commonly shared.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sorrik

@ Kiroh

Except it isn't old news. SHOCK. T5 is old because there is a harder difficulty raid after it. Is there anything harder than FCoB out right now? Be quiet if you can't use some elementary logic. Farm does not mean it is old. It means they are farming it. I abhor how people in this thread are mix-matching words and not using their actual definitions. Tiggy is right. The day ... the literal day 3.0 is released (not the SEASON it is estimated to be released in - oh and btw this means the Devs can change it to whatever season they want maybe Winter because there is no actual numerical date to hold them accountable to) is when FCoB will be "old". Even then casuals will call for harder nerfs than they're going to receive because they don't want to work for their iLvl. They want it handed to them.

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Again, it doesn't matter what you feel, think or believe. The gear WILL become easier to get as patches go on. Period. It has nothing to do with "casuals" and everything to do with "this is the way the devs built the game to function".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

The very nature of a vertical progression MMOs means your opinion, however cool you think it is, is wrong. Your belief in something has no effect whatsoever on the outcome, no matter how commonly shared.

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I don't see how saying their timing is off on the vertical baselining of gear means I don't understand vertical MMOs. And that having the time adjusted such that the reward is still relevantly seen as a reward until another vertical rung is added, is inherently wrong. It is a matter of opinion when that baseline should happen. I feel it is too early, others feel it is not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Again, it doesn't matter what you feel, think or believe. The gear WILL become easier to get as patches go on. Period. It has nothing to do with "casuals" and everything to do with "this is the way the devs built the game to function".

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And again, as Kazumac has said, it is perfectly fine that the game is designed that way, but people (OP for example) need to stop calling out for ways to reach the iLvls that should be reserved for the raiders until new content is released. You can have our gear without the work we put in ... IN TIME. Not while the content is still relevant and the hardest obstacle to overcome. The day I move on to Alexander (which will be the literal day of release of 3.0) is the day you and your kind can have iLvl 130 gear IMO. Either that, or SE can make FCoB gear 135. It's all about timing of release and what you're willing to work for.

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Originally Posted by Sorrik

And again, as Kazumac has said, it is perfectly fine that the game is designed that way, but people (OP for example) need to stop calling out for ways to reach the iLvls that should be reserved for the raiders until new content is released.

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or without at least a significant trade off in farming.

Zodiac Weapon quest line has always been the farm method to obtain weapons as powerful as raid.
Grinding hunts is the farm method to upgrade gear to raid level.

There must always be a trade off. You either spent weeks learning the fight and synergizing with a team playing the RNG game week after week, or you farm it tediously. You must pay your pound of flesh to the loot gods when the content your asking for is still the highest tier. Asking for it without paying the price will never fly.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

For the same reason raiders want 130 gear, it's not mandatory to complete final coil either, but you still want it.

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Considering that only one group in the world can make the claim to beat FCoB in i110 non crafted gear, I'm not sure how valid that statement is. And even then, their first win was with fully pentamelded i110 gear left side which is equiv or better than i120 soldiery. Sounds like people just want handouts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sorrik

And again, as Kazumac has said, it is perfectly fine that the game is designed that way, but people (OP for example) need to stop calling out for ways to reach the iLvls that should be reserved for the raiders until new content is released. You can have our gear without the work we put in ... IN TIME. Not while the content is still relevant and the hardest obstacle to overcome. The day I move on to Alexander (which will be the literal day of release of 3.0) is the day you and your kind can have iLvl 130 gear IMO. Either that, or SE can make FCoB gear 135. It's all about timing of release and what you're willing to work for.

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And still I have 130 pieces, don't like it? What are you going to do about it? Nothing. The day SE makes you director and your opinions on gear matter for anything is the day I'll start caring what you, or your kind think. Sadly for you it is not this day, the game is functioning as SE intends it to on SE's schedule and if you don't like it you can...well...pound sand I guess.

As I stated before, your belief in something has no effect whatsoever on the outcome.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

Considering that only one group in the world can make the claim to beat FCoB in i110 non crafted gear, I'm not sure how valid that statement is. And even then, their first win was with fully pentamelded i110 gear left side which is equiv or better than i120 soldiery. Sounds like people just want handouts.

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As much as that is true, every group in the first two weeks of FCoB that cleared t13 did it in roughly equal gear. The only thing week 2'ers had over Lucrezia and CL is they had "maybe" 6 more pieces of loot. I say maybe because RNG.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

And still I have 130 pieces, don't like it? What are you going to do about it? Nothing. The day SE makes you director and your opinions on gear matter for anything is the day I'll start caring what you, or your kind think. Sadly for you it is not this day, the game is functioning as SE intends it to on SE's schedule and if you don't like it you can...well...pound sand I guess.

As I stated before, your belief in something has no effect whatsoever on the outcome.

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I apologize, but what exactly do thing General Discussion threads are for? DISCUSSING STUFF. If you're content with how the game is, and you are so self-assured that nothing anyone says on GD will ever make it to the Devs' ears thus creating change, then please do us all the favor of taking the horse you are so high on and leave. You have no business posting one more word since your approach is essentially (paraphrasing) nothing anyone who pays SE's bills says will ever change anything. PWNED.

I personally liked 2.1 where there was a decent range of items at the same level so I support this idea.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

*snip*

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So essentially making suggestions about the design of the game shouldn't be made if it is different than the current game design... In a thread suggesting a change to the current design... All because we aren't the final decision makers on the matter?

I think It is safe to say you can be ignored at this point.

I support this idea and I'm a high end game raider

WoD holds seemingly a lot of BiS due to secondary stats alone I.E SCH

Dread Gloves/Ironworks Augmented both have spell speed neither have crit while you get a +22 with WoD with 3 MND lost but guess what the det makes up for it

WoD Hat +27 crit ......Augmented has +22

WoD Belt same

Lol just upgrade these and be OP

Let's see here...

-WoD itemization is largely unique from both FCOB and Ironworks itemization. While some WoD pieces will become BIS, many Dreadwyrm items will still be better.
-Dreadwyrm weapons are still the strongest in the game.
-The rate of progression through WoD doesn't increase. You still need to spend Twine to advance.
-Coil raiders can now use their Twine for more potentially good options, increasing the value of Coil's weekly Twine.
-i130 gear will be accessible to every player once Twine is added to CT dungeons regardless.
-WoD gear gains actual value for things other than cosmetics and alts.

What's the problem again?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

So essentially making suggestions about the design of the game shouldn't be made if it is different than the current game design... In a thread suggesting a change to the current design... All because we aren't the final decision makers on the matter?

I think It is safe to say you can be ignored at this point.

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They release hunts, people whine that you can get sands outside of coil.
They release sands directly into ST, people whine no one is doing hunts anymore.
They release new tome gear with a new upgrade item available only in coil until the next patch.
They release the new upgrade items to hunts.
People whine you can get upgrade items outside of coil again.

I think it's safe to say you've already been ignored.

Say whatever you want, feel whatever you feel and believe whatever you believe it's not going to change. You've whined about it before, they didn't listen. You're whining about it again, they won't listen. This is the way they intend the game to work whether you like it or not. Your opinions are not going to change it, and your whining is not going to make other players' 130 gear magically drop to a lower ilevel to soothe your ego.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sorrik

I apologize, but what exactly do thing General Discussion threads are for? DISCUSSING STUFF. If you're content with how the game is, and you are so self-assured that nothing anyone says on GD will ever make it to the Devs' ears thus creating change, then please do us all the favor of taking the horse you are so high on and leave. You have no business posting one more word since your approach is essentially (paraphrasing) nothing anyone who pays SE's bills says will ever change anything. PWNED.

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Unless you and a sufficient group of others like you are willing to stop paying, it won't change. The truth is that's you're not paying SE's bills, you're lining their pockets. They don't rely on XIV to keep the lights on and they could easily shut it down tomorrow and still be in the green with plenty left over. Your (individual) subscription is essentially worthless and if you left tomorrow 5 people would replace you in a matter of weeks.

You're not discussing anything, you're just whining that other people can get ilevel equivalent gear because "wahh I ran coil, I'm speshial!". That's not a discussion, it's throwing a tantrum.

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Originally Posted by Sorrik

Normally, this is acceptable to me. However, Alexander and the new gear are NOT released yet and there's not even a definitive release date yet. Nothing holds SE accountable. Nothing prevents them from saying, "We're pushing the expansion back because it's not ready to ship yet. Sorry, please wait until December." So in all this time while FCoB is still THE MOST relevant endgame content, all of our (the people who have put time and effort into Coils) work is pointless beyond the storyline which everyone can find on Youtube. SE is devaluing their own content prematurely. THAT is what the 19 pages are about.

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And when sand came out in hunts 110 was still the highest ilevel in the game (for armor) too. Nothing has changed, this situation is not new and higher ilevel gear will be coming out eventually.

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Originally Posted by Sorrik

...Also, explain to me why SE completely remade this entire game once already to satisfy the will of their subscribers because people said, "We want change. You disappointed us."

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Unless you and a sufficient group of others like you are willing to stop paying....

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Originally Posted by Sorrik

You are in no position (in all PROBability) to comment on SE's finances.

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http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/...l-report-2014/

@ Krr

The problem here is not debating the merits of a wider variation of gear sets. What I and the others opposed to the OP are saying in 19 pages is that an iLvl discussion. We (at least ... I really want to use the word WE here, but I cannot speak for all) no, I feel that 130 iLvl items should not be so easily accessible. This was summed up nicely by KumaBea76 on page 7. The basis of my opposition against OP is simple. Casuals (again not using this in a disrespectful way only as a shorter term to label non-coilers) in the current FFXIV already have twines, coats, and WoD BiS pieces (in Bard's - Chest case for example better than poetics 130 and coil 130) handed to them with pretty much nothing of them required. I've stated already it is not effort to stalk Hunt LS notifications.

Normally, this is acceptable to me. However, Alexander and the new gear are NOT released yet and there's not even a definitive release date yet. Nothing holds SE accountable. Nothing prevents them from saying, "We're pushing the expansion back because it's not ready to ship yet. Sorry, please wait until December." So in all this time while FCoB is still THE MOST relevant endgame content, all of our (the people who have put time and effort into Coils) work is pointless beyond the storyline which everyone can find on Youtube. SE is devaluing their own content prematurely. THAT is what the 19 pages are about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Unless you and a sufficient group of others like you are willing to stop paying, it won't change. The truth is that's you're not paying SE's bills, you're lining their pockets. They don't rely on XIV to keep the lights on and they could easily shut it down tomorrow and still be in the green with plenty left over. Your (individual) subscription is essentially worthless and if you left tomorrow 5 people would replace you in a matter of weeks.

You're not discussing anything, you're just whining that other people can get ilevel equivalent gear because "wahh I ran coil, I'm speshial!". That's not a discussion, it's throwing a tantrum.

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You are in no position (in all PROBability) to comment on SE's finances. Also, explain to me why SE completely remade this entire game once already to satisfy the will of their subscribers because people said, "We want change. You disappointed us."

@ Kiroh

Posting arbitrary articles still puts you in no position to account for SE's finances ... like ... AT ALL. What is 2,104,714,000 dollars in SALES if it costs 2,104,713,999 dollars to maintain their massive empire of a company? If you can't do math (which is probably likely judging on the quality of your posts in this thread overall), then I will tell you that would be 1 dollar in PROFITS. Ctrl+F that article you linked for the word "profit" ... it's not there; I can save you the time.

Regarding your "sand came out in hunts" comment, you are right, nothing has changed ... yet. Please stop being arrogant and assuming the status quo will stay forever. You have no crystal ball and no legs to stand on. How long do you think it took for the Devs to realize FFXIV 1.0 was a flop? It didn't happen overnight; Change never does.

Regarding your quote of your own earlier words to evade giving a rational and real retort to me, it is not required that subscribers stop paying their subscriptions to FFXIV: ARR in order for change to happen. You do know that probably thousands of people were still playing FFXIV 1.0 the day that the Devs kicked them all out of the servers because they were going to trash and remake the game, right?

You are really, really bad at holding an intellectual conversation. I have not insulted you once yet (intentionally), but seriously dude ... you're pretty crap at bringing up legitimate points.

Sorrik with the truth! One of the few reasonable posters on here, good stuff.

Also hilarious how you get attacked simply for being a raider. Who are the elitist monsters again?

while i feel endgame , like fcob, should be more accessible to a larger base, still, in almost all mmos ever, the best gear is locked beyond the hardest content. Its only with this game i read over and over people being upset they cant get BiS gear for standing around. But anyways, you already can get 130 gear, go HUNT, im sure there are 10 PFs for it up atm.

People overstate the "difficulty" of Coil. It's just as mind numbing as hunting or dungeon running after awhile...

The more variety in sources of equivalent gear the better. You get a more diverse and palatable game that way - make any one method better than all the rest and people only play that one portion of the game.

If people only logged in for a weekly Coil run Eorzea would be pretty dull.

I think difficulty is a relevant term. It doesn't stay consistently difficult, once you learn it's mechanics, rotations, etc., it becomes easier. It's all scripted. We have been playing scripted games forever.

Turbo Tunnel from Battletoads was crazy hard...until you memorized the level and what was coming at you and when. Then you breezed through it. Same here. Memorize the fight and what the bosses do, etc., and you get win.

It is only difficult at first because it is new. After 5 or so runs, you learn the dance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Synestr

I think difficulty is a relevant term. It doesn't stay consistently difficult, once you learn it's mechanics, rotations, etc., it becomes easier. It's all scripted. We have been playing scripted games forever.

Turbo Tunnel from Battletoads was crazy hard...until you memorized the level and what was coming at you and when. Then you breezed through it. Same here. Memorize the fight and what the bosses do, etc., and you get win.

It is only difficult at first because it is new. After 5 or so runs, you learn the dance.

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And this the major reason games like Demon and Dark Souls are considered truly difficult. Their boss fights are NOT scripted. You have to constantly be adjusting to a wide range of scenarios.

What I find most amusing in general is if all the hardcore raiders left the game, this game would continue on fine and I think would be vastly less toxicity within it but if all the casuals or non-hardcore raiders left this game then it would crumble and potentially die off much like Wildstar which tried to cater mostly to the hardcore crowd. Look how badly that turned out for them. I just find that amusing when see the niché hardcore raiding crowd bash the casual crowd for daring to ask that the game be improved for the majority of the player base.

It always comes back to their egos in the end with any discussion between hardcore and casual players on topics, coils for example do not need ilvl130 gear to complete coils, coils are not the only thing that benefits from ilvl130 gear as every other non-ilvl restricted dungeon, trial or raid benefits in exactly the same way. Coils are not the only way to optimize the use of ilvl130 gear or push the boundaries of what your character can output in terms of damage since any target mob with a high enough HP pool is equally as viable for such optimization. More ilvl130 set varieties or options to obtain only benefits even hardcore raiders in both the sense of more people geared up to take part in the hardcore content plus offers the hardcore raiders more choice of how to optimize and tweak their own gear composition.

The only negative consequence is to do with their egos which need not be an issue given other people with such gear obtained in other ways does not diminish the fact they cleared potentially harder content to obtain theirs, they still get their completion specific titles, they still get their hardcore clearance minions and perhaps a unique hardcore clearance mount would also be good idea but gear is not something only the hardcore raiders need, it benefits everyone including themselves if other options were opened up to obtain such despite their apparent fragile egos.

In the last few pages alone I keep seeing hardcore raiders claiming they clear high end content they deserve higher ilvl gear...no you do not deserve higher ilvl gear, you maybe deserve some 'recognition' and that comes in many forms from titles to minions, potentially some coil unique mounts would be good and unlocked achievements aka vanity things which benefits your egos but higher ilvl gear is not something you 'deserve'. That gear is equally beneficial to everyone in most areas of the game not just the hardcore crowd, it benefits everyone in the same way it benefits you and opening it up also benefits you outside of your egos. Opening it up does not diminish your achievements which are already recognized in many ways beyond gear within the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

What I find most amusing in general is if all the hardcore raiders left the game, this game would continue on fine and I think would be vastly less toxicity within it

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I disagree completely. The people I've seen act the most toxic in the game have always been the casuals who literally go ape s**t the moment you try to use a strategy or discuss anything. I mean completely go critical, start wiping groups on purpose laughing about, yelling at people, etc. Just the nastiest stuff, and it always comes from the people who hate raiders. Have I seen elitist raiders? Yeah, definitely, but the worst behaved players I've actually run into weren't the raiders at all. Heck once on t4 I was BLM and simply asking the group "Hey guys, can we please group them in the middle so me and the other BLM can AoE them?" turned into a toxic rant against us for being elitist raiders blah blah blah and then they bailed half way through a run. All because I kindly asked if we could group in the center. Some people can't take even one suggestion without flying off the handle at "raiders."

So please understand that assuming the toxic element is always the raiders is itself a prejudiced opinion that ignores reality and is itself a toxic element. People like you don't seem to realize that this prejudiced point of view only propagates the hatred between "casuals" and "raiders." Your post is full of nothing but prejudice. It's toxic and disgusting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

The people I've seen act the most toxic in the game have always been the casuals...

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...and yet your response to my comment is filled with bias against the casual crowd citing examples as to why your own bias exists. Your reply is in essence hypocritical because it does the same thing in the first large paragraph that you claimed I was doing. Oh the irony...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

In the last few pages alone I keep seeing hardcore raiders claiming they clear high end content they deserve higher ilvl gear...no you do not deserve higher ilvl gear, you maybe deserve some 'recognition' and that comes in many forms from titles to minions, potentially some coil unique mounts would be good and unlocked achievements aka vanity things

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That's not something for you to decide and declare. From what I read around here and in game, many people care about minions and mounts just as much as coil gear if not more. Putting vanity rewards inside raids is a disservice to the majority of the player base since they do not raid. Take the t13 clear minion for example. Granted it's a minion of an old man that many players that start in ARR probably don't care about (because they never met him) but he's a scion and he's only attainable in t13. Switch that with another scion minion like yshtola or minfillia or alisae and you WILL see people up in arms.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

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No they don't and no they wouldn't on anywhere near the scale you claim.

Vanity items by it's nature is a lot different to gear which is actually useable in multiple areas of the game outside of ego related issues which hardcore raiders main argument has been, the recognition of clearing high end content so they deserve higher gear that so many have been using as an excuse in this thread. Vanity items are ego related, as is their stance about how they deserve what others do not have for completing high end raid content...vanity items fit that bill perfectly.

Gear on the other is not something that is ego limited if go back and read what I actually said earlier when I explained my position. What I said benefits them and benefits others while at same time does not diminish their accomplishments plus satisfies their egotistical desire via vanity items and/or features of the game that already exist to satisfy their egos outside of gear itself. My response was towards the hardcore raiders argument and stance that they have been putting forth in last few pages, plus explains how their stance contains a lot of fallacious elements to it on top of further explaining that they would benefit from such changes suggested in this thread.