I think its time BRD get some loving

Bards are fine. They wreck every other dps in crystal tower raids, maintain full dps while avoiding mechanics. Have the second best burst in the game. I've seen my dps spike 700 ish on all cool downs. Provide buffs required for progression. Big deal we are behind other dps. We are the white mages of the game. Need us for cutting edge progression and a bit meh when it's on farm status.

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Originally Posted by ChriZirhC

the real issue is the trend with our WD. yes we are okay right now. but what if the trend continues on? no hell any good bard is gonna wait til there's like 10WD point difference from all DoW classes before everyone realizes we're a gimped class. We're seeing the trend now and we want changes before it continues even further. This is what we are worried about.

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Bard WD is 10% below all other DOW classes (rounded up or down to give a whole number), so that gap is just going to continue to widen. When WD for everything else is 100, bard will be 90 like you said.

Objectively, it's hard to compare bards to anything but other bards. You have a 10% weapon damage loss off the top, and then are penalized by errors from anyone in the party by having to play songs other than Foes. Your monk isn't penalized by your summoner's bad MP management, or that dragoon having to be rezzed a couple times. It's the bard that's gonna eat that 20% dps penalty. On the other hand it's that ability to carry the party through mistakes that makes them irreplaceable for progression.

I'd love to see that weapon damage penalty tightened up to 5% or so, but I'm not holding my breath. Maybe bards will get another dps boosting ability to even things out with the expansion bump to level 60. Otherwise there's always switching to Machinist at that point.

Basically what the above is said. Bard does have to take the punishment if someone screws up but in return we do make it up by covering those mistakes. Personally, I just did everything I could to be more support based over damage based. In fact, I think it's a good idea to get Mantra since you will be bunched up with raid members most of the time and it will help the healers in dire situations when the monk's mantra is down (or no monk available).

I'm more leaning towards having more accesory that actually have determination on them. It's really hard to get BiS on a brd if you don't do coils, wich I don't cause I don't care about it and I don't have the time for it.

I'm pretty much rocking nearly 500skill speed and I would've had over 540skill speed and not even 255 determination with all of it.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Bards are fine. They wreck every other dps in crystal tower raids, maintain full dps while avoiding mechanics. Have the second best burst in the game. I've seen my dps spike 700 ish on all cool downs. Provide buffs required for progression. Big deal we are behind other dps. We are the white mages of the game. Need us for cutting edge progression and a bit meh when it's on farm status.

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Please no, no no and again no, don't compare a casual raid as CT1-CT2-CT3 with FCOB.
You can parse the damage inside CT and the 50% of the dps can barely reach 200 dps because they are slacking, bad geared or just simply is the 20th run and he is tired to farm that raid. You can't extrapolate that data.
And obviously 4-man content is not valid too.

Why was DRG buffed? Because inside FCOB, his damage was low in comparation than the others dps, his magic defense was low too, so they died by mechanics when others members survive.

Why was War revamped? Because in First Coil, warrior slacked on defensive cooldowns and died where a paladin survive or had more abilities to prevent damage.

Why was the blm was buffed? For Second Coil.

Why was BRD nerfed? First Coil

Sound elitist, but it is. The content is based on high end.

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Originally Posted by mero-ix

...a support class...

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It is not a support class, it is a DPS class that just happens to have a few (just a few) support skills hence us getting placed in the long ass DPS classed queue. If we were truly a support class, we would have been given a song which regenerates a parties HP too and a skill to resurrect other players like all other support classes if we truly was a support class instead of a DPS class. Then we could be put in the very quick support/healers queues.

Most classes have skills that buff party members, that does not make all those classes support classes, likewise just because we have a few buff/support skills that does not mean we are not a DPS class. Personally I am glad they are replacing our healing / resurrection LB with a personal DPS one soon, now if they just also either removed or replaced the %dmg penalty to our songs with a different non DPS debuff and/or increase our WD instead of the ever increasing disparity between our WD and other DPS classes WD then I would be a lot happier.

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Originally Posted by NoahArks

I'm more leaning towards having more accesory that actually have determination on them. It's really hard to get BiS on a brd if you don't do coils, wich I don't cause I don't care about it and I don't have the time for it.

I'm pretty much rocking nearly 500skill speed and I would've had over 540skill speed and not even 255 determination with all of it.

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Yoichi bow, kirimu hat, coat, pants, IW ring 130+120, IW neck, IW shoe ,hat, gloves, belt Platinum earrings of ranging. None of these have skill speed mate. If you don't coil you sadly have to settle for a skill speed bracelet. IW/Shiva/Crafted all got sksp, but this leaves u at a 2.48 gcd which aint bad.

Also Sksp aint bad at all if ur doing short content that dies in 5 mins ( assuming you got a dragoon for invigorate ). Only sux for 10 min fights in coil really.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

It is not a support class, it is a DPS class that just happens to have a few (just a few) support skills.

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Bard is a job that specializes in buffing their allies with songs and other enchantments. Using bow in combat, Bard improves upon the archer class through the addition of group buffs. Bards have all the abilities and traits of Archers. They can also use all the cross-class abilities of Pugilist and lancer. The most important stat for the bard is dexterity, which increases attack power. The level of your Bard is equivalent to that of your Archer.

Source: http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Bard

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Originally Posted by Lycelle

Source: http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Bard

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Our class is technically archer, a DPS class, the bard job is an enhancement that adds some party buff skills.

From the same wiki you linked...

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Bard

Role
Ranged Physical DPS

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http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Jobs

As I said we are a DPS class with some support skills that the bard job gives (just a few) aka just three support skills, Foe (damage enhancing debuff on mobs which other classes also have various damage enhancing debuffs can apply to mobs), Paeon (TP regen which another class such as Ninja can also do on another party member via Goad) and Mages Ballad (MP regen), one skill which enhances the strength of those three skills aka Battle Voice and a DPS skill that has a mob debuff aka Rain of Death.

We have one party buff skill from archer aka Swiftsong that just increases run speed but seventeen DPS skills from it. I have not included cross-class skills brought across from other classes. We currently have a support type limit break but that is being removed and replaced in an upcoming patch with a DPS personal limit break. Our most important stat is DEX which increases attack power aka DPS. We very much are a DPS class. If your playing it as a support class and not a DPS class then your playing it wrong. If your playing it as a DPS class that (occasionally) uses the very limited, very few support skills we have when needed then your playing it right.

I can't see bards getting any significant increases at all. The balance is done around the 1% that pull insane numbers in endgame due to simple over play ( like idk, above 500 dps or so at the END of a fcob fight ). The w att decrease was no accident of course, it was done for this reason. It's harsh on the majority of bards, but I bet those crazy bards really aren't crying at night for a buff.

im nowhere near 500 on a fcob turn and I don't feel a need for a buff. I got used to the fact that I trade some damage for support long ago. The damage checks in fights are obviously made with bard dps in mind. How much easier do ppl want this game to get? T_T Wanna do more damage? Play another class.

If they increases bards dps to be on par with other dps, then they will just increase the damage needed to complete the encounter. Then people would just go back to stacking bards. And then the nerfs would come again. And this thread again. and and and....

No. Bard doesn't need a buff.

As a main SMN since 2.0 and also playing BRD as my secondary job, it's very difficult for me to see a minority of people complaining about BRD role and/or its dps in this thread...
BRD is fine for the moment.
I really tried to stay quiet and silent but I guess we can't argue against their blindness. BRD Balance is OK, it provide a very decent dps while supporting your team with songs and BRD itself is mandatory for almost all contents...
Meanwhile SMN is slowly dying :(.

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Originally Posted by rappa

Why was War revamped? Because in First Coil, warrior slacked on defensive cooldowns and died where a paladin survive or had more abilities to prevent damage.

Why was the blm was buffed? For Second Coil.

Why was BRD nerfed? First Coil

Sound elitist, but it is. The content is based on high end.

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So why SMN didn't got buffed yet, it would had been helpful during the many weeks of training on Bahamut as the only caster of my team... Yes it's possible to beat fcob as SMN but my sanity got damaged a little bit in the process.

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Originally Posted by mero-ix

Bard is fine. Last week in T10 our casters did 455 dps and I had 427. That's not very far behind. And considering bard is pretty easy as far as rotation goes, along with being able to prance around all day pew-pewing, we're fine. Really.

Poor Summoners need some love, not bard. :(

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Can't get the same love that other jobs did got for endgame I guess, it's sad. And according to Yoshi-P words, they do know that SMN is in trouble but ask people to be patients :x Also, no words of a possible "when".

source : http://dengekionline.com/elem/000/000/991/991969/
translation from here.

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I'm sure the job balance will be greatly adjusted when Heavensward is released, but do you have any jobs that you plan to adjust during the patch 2.5 series?
Y: In particular, I think we need to consider Summoner, but we're still working on the adjustments. Originally, we were planning to add new actions to Summoner with Heavensward to adjust MP consumption. However, since 3.0 is still a ways off, we're thinking about other careful adjustments. As we release each piece of content we see which jobs are too strong or not strong enough. We're also focusing on carefully adjusting things for 3.0, so we'd like to make adjustments as soon as possible, but please wait for a bit longer.

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And it's the reason why I will probably retire my SMN completely at 3.0 if nothing is done any time soon, the warning since t8 from scob and then all fcob turns were enough.
I did beat all coils as SMN but it seems to be a difficult job to adjust for DEVs when it have issues. It's not really reassuring for future, beyond 3.0.

If you guys ever want to support SMN, feel free to send a bump and a kiss there :
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...N-s-need-help!

Summoner as bard suffer the same stigma (Skill speed/spell speed). Checking the gear, that stat is useless because drain all your resourses fast than you can recover. A bard without TP have to play paeon also theirs partners don't need it. A summoner has to use energy drain over fester because he can't demand manasong for himself.

Summoner need more love than bard now, but that not remove the future problem with bards. Maybe heavensward fix it or make worse.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

If they increases bards dps to be on par with other dps, then they will just increase the damage needed to complete the encounter.

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Whenever someone comes in to a BRD thread saying that people who proposes a slight tweak to BRDs is asking BRDs to be on par with melee DPS, I feel the need to ask SE to include a cross server (/slap) emote.

Most BRDs would probably agree that balancing the WD back the the appropriate gap with the other physical DPS jobs would suffice and maintain the same gap moving forward. The only problem we see is that every major patch, the physical DPS WD are gaining +1 gap over BRD. It was +4 in BCoB and right now it is +6 difference in FCoB. A +1 back to the WD would suffice.

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Originally Posted by mero-ix

I used to raid as DRG for a year up until FCoB when I switched to BRD. It's a lot easier to maintain striking dummy dps on BRD than it is on DRG. BARDS DON'T NEED A BUFF. There are just a lot of poorly played Bards and they need to get better at knowing how to maintain dps while also playing songs, etc. Don't pop your buffs if you have a song up nerfing your damage. Don't leave songs up unnecessarily long. Work with your raid members to minimize the usage of songs as much as possible. Whining to SE for a buff to a class that's, imo, already overpowered, is not going to solve your inability to play your job.

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Wait, are you saying bards have to manage CD's, learn when they have to play song and the duration? Then Bards are a faceroll job or not? Because i am doubting now.

When you did all that, when manage your songs to play only the necessary time and the exact moment when are required. When you force your job to the limit, is when you discover you are two steps behind others dps jobs.

i think, a few person here talking we killed several times turn 13, we know how mechanics are working, how control our job and our playstyle. We are not facerolling CT3 o primals

Look,
I don't usually come in last with my i115 brd, but yea... A little bump in the dmg wouldn't bother anyone

With the obviously very deliberate decision to scale back the weapon damage, se don't want bards damage increasing any more than it is. Bards have their spots secured in raid groups and.....it isn't as if people are not clearing stuff due to having a bard. Theres nothing convincing at all in this thread for a brd buff of any size. "My raid is too good to have a bard" doesn't really cut it as a reason to buff bards dmg. Yh I wouldn't mind 1 extra wd either, but that isn't very convincing either. bards don't NEEEEEED a buff. Dragoon did. Summoner does.

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Originally Posted by mero-ix

You mean, like healer LB? :rolleyes:

It seems pretty obvious that SE had BRD in mind as a support class when they created them. Not sure why you're arguing that. Who knows how they'll end up changing them come the expansion since their views on the classes has changed (possibly getting rid of the "class" and the whole split job (arcanist) they decided to not continue with, etc). I'm glad they're giving individual jobs their own LB too.

I used to raid as DRG for a year up until FCoB when I switched to BRD. It's a lot easier to maintain striking dummy dps on BRD than it is on DRG. BARDS DON'T NEED A BUFF. There are just a lot of poorly played Bards and they need to get better at knowing how to maintain dps while also playing songs, etc. Don't pop your buffs if you have a song up nerfing your damage. Don't leave songs up unnecessarily long. Work with your raid members to minimize the usage of songs as much as possible. Whining to SE for a buff to a class that's, imo, already overpowered, is not going to solve your inability to play your job.

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1.0 EXISTED u know , at the time bard got awesome buffs that didnt gimped the dps
ballad didnt have 20% dmg nerf

TP = bard drained his own tp to give tp regen

minuet = song that boosted ACC and Magic ACC

battlevoice = buffed HP on top of x2 the effect of the song

bard back then was a good dps with utility. Healer LB exist because isnt a mage (so no meteor for u , and because is ranged , so why create another LB, attach healer lb and done with it....)

2- there a lot of bads in every job , telling ppl that are bad and l2p is a bad way to prove your point


As lots of ppl said Weapon dmg is a problem , and if it continues that trend will be a huge problem later on (if SE doesnt change how bard works in the expansion , something that i really doubt , since they said that dont want support jobs at all )

Bards support? , what about smn? eye for eye , virus , rez in combat? , ninja with dmg boost for the whole party , stun silence on the same job ,Goad, and slashing debuff .....

every class bring something , stun ,silence , weapon debuff , rez , stats debuffs (monk int debuff is awesome in Fcob), virus , e4e ect

Brds are still a dps class , and if things doesnt change ppl will only use bards on progression raids , then change job to another dps , because ballad is nice to have? yeah when healers are learning or gearing...after that meh.

Tp song is awesome but u can use 2x nin, while boosting the party dps by a lot with 3 slashing jobs on party (war and ninx2) , doble Trick attack / goad .

p.d SMN has issues ? yes but that doesnt mean bards doesnt need some help. U know SE can work on both at same time.

Itemization doesnt help either, S.speed everywhere...

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

Brds are still a dps class , and if things doesnt change ppl will only use bards on progression raids , then change job to another dps , because ballad is nice to have? yeah when healers are learning or gearing...after that meh.

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Thats the main issue with BRD.
Once a group know how to handle a fight, there is no need to bring a BRD. Healers dont need ballad anymore in FcOB once the group know the fight.
Fact is, you will get better result if you switch the BRD with a NIN. The group will gain a huge DPS boost and a free TP regen!

If, in 3.0, the DPS gap between BRD and other jobs keep growing, i doubt it will worth it to have a BRD anymore. Using another job for a 100-150 DPS gain (depending how the WD will be gimped again for BRD) will become a better choice: more DPS, shorter fight, less time burning MP for healer, no need for ballad.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Bards have their spots secured in raid groups and.....

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Valid point for 1 bard in group. But what about taking 2-nd bard? Let's assume, you have 3 dps in a group (melee, caster and bard) and you need to find a 4-th dps. Take other melee or caster? Sure, it's ok. Take 2-nd bard. Better not.

No. Bards do not need a buff. Balance in this game is done at the high end and for cutting edge progression bards are mandatory. Every high end static group I have ever seen defeat every round of bahamut coils has required use of a bard as part of the setup. Give a bard a dps increase then we go back to the days of stacking bards. No there is no issue right now with using two bards if you want in raids but bards are unique compared to every other dps in the game and should be treated that way. THEY are SUPPORT and will remain that way in the forseeable future. Yoshi-P said there will not be support in this game as a official definition because they go with the holy trinity mode for game play but bard is a support class that fills a dps slot. Its job increases the dps of the other jobs to make do for its lower high end damage then other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

THEY are SUPPORT and will remain that way in the forseeable future. Yoshi-P said there will not be support in this game as a official definition because they go with the holy trinity mode for game play but bard is a support class that fills a dps slot. Its job increases the dps of the other jobs to make do for its lower high end damage then other jobs.

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Wrong and I explained why earlier. They are DPS class with eighteen DPS skills and just three support skills (MP regen, TP regen which Ninjas also can do plus resistance debuff skill) plus one skill that enhances those other three. Swiftsong is an out of combat skill so does not matter. Our main stat is DEX which is a damage increasing stat aka DPS. The limit break is also being changed from healing/resurrection to DPS limit break in the near future since even SE now realizes how silly it was to put such a LB on a DPS class. As I said if your playing it as a support class and not a DPS class your playing it very much wrong, it is a DPS class that on some limited occasions makes use of a very few number of support skills and even then only generally when other people mess up. Feel free to argue about whether you think need a buff or removal of a debuff but don't make the mistake of thinking it is not a DPS class.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

Valid point for 1 bard in group. But what about taking 2-nd bard? Let's assume, you have 3 dps in a group (melee, caster and bard) and you need to find a 4-th dps. Take other melee or caster? Sure, it's ok. Take 2-nd bard. Better not.

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While not optimal, it's completely fine to take a 2nd bard. Just gotta be good at it to not hit enrage while progressing, but still fine.

Just an fyi, , Illen, those numbers are low for a caster in t10. A good black mage can hit over 500, 450 is average for my Bard in that run (460+ if I don't have to sing Paeon twice and I'm not chosen for wild charge every time :v)

Edit: Also stop saying we want to be on par with the other dps, none of the good Bards here are saying that. At this point you're feigning logic, and you're blinded by your Summoner melancholy.

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Originally Posted by mero-ix

If BRD was on par with the other dps classes damage-wise, why would raids bring anything else? BRDs are the optimal class to handle mechanics. Why would anyone bring a melee? Why bring a BLM who has to cast/can't easily move? Just bring a BRD!

How do people not understand this? :confused:

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People who actually complain and ask for a dps buff to BRD in this thread just don't want to understand this.
They just want to maximize their virtual epeen numbers, even if it mean to totally break the game balance.

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

People who actually complain and ask for a dps buff to BRD in this thread just don't want to understand this.
They just want to maximize their virtual epeen numbers, even if it mean to totally break the game balance.

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I think you do not understand that decrease, removal or replacement of %20 damage debuff which happens only when playing certain songs would not break balance at all. Adding +1 WD will not break balance at all either but the continued disparity between our WD and other DPS classes keeps increasing so our class is becoming more imbalanced negatively with each major patch. I think your overestimating the impact of what people are asking for and being melodramatic about consequences.

I also wonder if people are forgetting we have incoming another very mobile ranged DPS soon by way of the Machinist that will add further competition to the ranged DPS classes. One of our so called three supporting skills is not a buff at all, it is a mob debuff and every class has mob debuffs leaving only two party buff skills for our class. If think Machinist will have zero party buffs or buffs that benefit other party members and zero enemy debuffs I think you will be in for a big surprise.

All the arguments in this thread are terribly arbitrary and the justification is weak.

1st off: WHY does bard need a buff? Because they are excluded from content? (Like melees before their buff. Or drg even after melee buff. Or smn now etc) nope. Brd is not currently excluded. They are required in every raid group. I also have never heard of a bard in a static getting booted after its on farm status. Ever. That is a hypothetical argument that doesn't actually happen. No one can even answer the WHY with anything except "we do less damage than other jobs". But if bard is not excluded for content, then that rationale simple becomes "I wanna parse higher". And in fact, not only is bard not excluded, it is the ONLY dps most groups REQUIRE in their groups.

No one in 20 pages has articulated 1 rational reason bards NEED to do more damage. Only that they want it, because groups are happily accepting bards at their current damage levels and still requiring them.

The 2nd point being how MUCH to buff them, and that is an entirely subjective fight too, but it isn't even worth discussing until anyone can justify WHY they need it in the 1st place.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

No one in 20 pages has articulated 1 rational reason bards NEED to do more damage. Only that they want it, because groups are happily accepting bards at their current damage levels and still requiring them.

The 2nd point being how MUCH to buff them, and that is an entirely subjective fight too, but it isn't even worth discussing until anyone can justify WHY they need it in the 1st place.

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Your on very shaky ground if try pulling the need argument because need and want are so intrinsically intertwined based on personal desires.

I know of SMNs and DRGs who also do end game raids, are part of statics therefore since others of that class are also used in statics for end game content (even though not as popular) means perhaps they do not 'need' to be buffed for that purpose, perhaps they just 'need' to try harder to find/create statics that want/willing to use them. I may not believe in that stance but it's the same principle your arguing, that of a need vs personal desire when in reality there is very little difference between the two to improve your own playing experience. Feel free to explain where you draw the line in the sand between need and want. Another example is Echo for example is not needed according to the elitists, but it sure as hell makes playing a lot more enjoyable for the majority of players and helps them. Is it fundamentally needed though? No, not according to some, but to others yes...need vs want is a dubious argument.

My point is the need excuse is a slippery slope because the boundaries between need and want overlap to a huge extent, do people who want SMNs and DRG buffed want it for a guaranteed spot in raid statics? Is that need or a want to be more popular? There are 8 spaces in such raids and if every class based their 'need' on a guaranteed spot in that static there is not enough spots for every class especially with 3 more classes incoming. SE would have to completely remake 8 man raids increasing the size of raid parties to fulfill that need or more accurately desire/want by people. Bards themselves are not needed in statics, they are wanted quite often because make things easier while training. The need excuse is a flimsy one at best as most come down to nothing more than want and not need at all.

There is actually very little in this game that is needed and need for the most part is very subjective from individual to individual, most of the things people ask for anywhere on these forums are things they 'want' because would improve their playing experience in some way, but not fundamentally needed. This situation is no different to me. Your basing your argument on why do we need it when most of the things people want on these entire forums and game are not needed, they are subjective wants and desires to improve peoples personal playing experiences so how about listing why our suggestions 'need' to be ignored and why shouldn't we have some of the suggestions implemented...because outside of the hyperbolic and melodramatic claims of being overpowered, none of the suggestions I have seen would lead to such a situation so they have no merit to me and by proxy are not valid excuses to why those suggestions need to be ignored in my opinion.

My argument personally in this thread is not that we need it per se, I do however want it and there is little to no reason good enough given so far as to why we shouldn't have some of these suggested changes made. Most of the reasons against are people being melodramatic in how much would affect balance or party dynamics since no one is saying we should DPS output the same as the top tier DPS classes, but we also shouldn't ideally be as low as currently are either. The continued disparity between our WD and other classes also should ideally be fixed. Needed? Debatable and very subjective but so is almost everything people want on here. I want some minor tweaks to improve the class, not a major overhaul to make them overpowered.

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Originally Posted by mero-ix

Thread closed. :cool:

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Thread re-opened. :p

All the other persons post did was sound good, in reality it means little to nothing when delve deeper into the logic behind it. It's a politician style response, sounds good but doesn't really mean much if put to the test and explore it. Even I paused for thought because sounded good but didn't hold much water when thought about it some more. So kudos to him for making an interesting point but on reflection it doesn't have much substance to it.

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Originally Posted by mero-ix

I'm not talking about hardcore players with melded gear. Show me a parse of a BLM hitting over 500 in T10 that's not 130 or melded out? I had 440 in T10 last night, which I think is good for a more casual raider not using pots. But this is all irrelevant to the thread and my point being that if BRDs did as much damage as other classes then there'd be little reason to bring the other dps classes.

(I didn't bring up those previous numbers for epeen purposes, they were humble dps numbers from that week's raid night to use as an average example. But congrats to you?)

Edit: Okay, Akashi, understandable. I'm just saying I disagree that Bards need a buff despite that.

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There is weight to posting dps numbers. You brought up those numbers because you said you're close to your good (read: the literal term you used) Caster in terms of damage. I put up my numbers because I'm more close to the actual difference between casters and Bards.

Also, the reason we talk about optimal conditions is the same reason why Square felt it was necessary to nerf Ninja: the glass ceiling. Yoshida thought it would be near impossible to optimize ninja's rotation, but quickly found out that the player base was excelling at it. That's why it irks me when mindless drones of posters come in and say, "maybe you should play bard better!" ....No. I play Bard near optimal in every turn, and no amount of skill will close this increasingly bigger gap between other dps. But hey, you can switch to BLM if you want better dps, and I to Ninja, right? Right.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

All the arguments in this thread are terribly arbitrary and the justification is weak.

1st off: WHY does bard need a buff? Because they are excluded from content? (Like melees before their buff. Or drg even after melee buff. Or smn now etc) nope. Brd is not currently excluded. They are required in every raid group. I also have never heard of a bard in a static getting booted after its on farm status. Ever. That is a hypothetical argument that doesn't actually happen. No one can even answer the WHY with anything except "we do less damage than other jobs". But if bard is not excluded for content, then that rationale simple becomes "I wanna parse higher". And in fact, not only is bard not excluded, it is the ONLY dps most groups REQUIRE in their groups.

No one in 20 pages has articulated 1 rational reason bards NE ED to do more damage. Only that they want it, because groups are happily accepting bards at their current damage levels and still requiring them.

The 2nd point being how MUCH to buff them, and that is an entirely subjective fight too, but it isn't even worth discussing until anyone can justify WHY they need it in the 1st place.

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You don't wait until a car completely breaks down until you bring it into the shop. If your engine light is blinking, you figure out why. The weapon damage issue is like a huge red light saying, "HEY, SOMETHING'S WRONG", and we've given you plenty of reasons to think so. Would you like the answer in braille too?

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

Take 2-nd bard. Better not.

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An awesome bard who can focus on dps and have no duties or damage hurting singing to do? Ur looking at 450+ dps at least. I wouldn't say no to this. It isn't as if you will not clear a piece of content by taking a 2nd bard friend along. We do decent damage afterall. brd pugs generally do better than melee pugs anyways, due to being easier to play xD ( never gonna forget that nin pulling under 300 in t11 )

If u got maybe a brd/brd/drg/blm combo? Then that blm is getting twice the foe requiem and battlevoice and the drg is buffing twice the bard. But brd/brd/blm/any melee would work ofc.

Arguing class stacking is interesting but in reality never happens, due to loot share anyways.

Exempt it's not shakey. SE has a track record of buffing jobs when there is a negative consequence to players ability to participate in content. Their record aligns time and time again. Their statements are always about equal opportunity participation. So when I say need, I mean that players on those jobs are universally struggling to play high end content as that job. Examples:

*Wars being excluded in favor of plds. War buff.
*Melees being entirely excluded from lots of content. Melee buff
*Bards being overused in all content (same time as melee exclusion, and preferred over other ranged). Bard nerf.
*Blm exclusion on single target fights and movement fights (endgame). Blm buff
*Drg exclusion in raiding (based on magic def combined with lower dps). Buff

Every single solitary job buff was as a rule of widespread job exclusion in endgame content. All of them.

So when I say 'need' I mean are their widespread symptoms of bard exclusion. No.there arent. Quite to the contrary, they are INDESPENSABLE for endgame content. Their personal dps is bottom tier, yet time after time they are chosen anyway because they bring other aspects groups want MORE than dps. They enhance caster and healer dps. They enhance dps of other jobs on long fights or aoe sections(tp). So it's not about a bards damage. No one cares that it's low because they raise RAID DPS.

Bard doesn't need a buff until there are symptoms that support it (exclusion). There is no widespread exclusion, therefore bard doesn't need a buff. There's nothing slippery slope about that.

Once again, each example you gave took either one patch or more to get adjusted. Those jobs became unnecessary, and therefore under used. Who's to say with the new expansion the same will happen to Bard? At the rate they're going, yes, they will become unfavorable, especially if the new jobs somehow give better raid utility. Who even knows if Yoshida is aware of how poorly Bard is scaling, which is why it's so important we make a thread dedicated to it (notice how I didn't say it in plural). You coming in here saying everything's fine now is showing how near sighted you really are.

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Originally Posted by mero-ix

BRD is very easy to play, a support class, and able to handle mechanics without interrupting their dps. Their dps isn't supposed to be on par with casters and melee. Its already a very popular class because it's easy to play. It would become too overpowered if it had a buff. If you feel so far behind maybe the class isn't the problem, but your ability to play it? There are many guides out there to help you increase your dps on BRD.

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Really. Clear T13 plenty of time and do 430+ without a DRG in our group and we dont bother with buff pots now cuz we're so geared. so yes im not the best but i dont need a guide.

i dont know how many times me and other bards are saying this but we DO NOT expect to be on par with other DPS. We just need WD+1 buff because 2.4 nerf was not necesasarry.

And I will be blunt. If you play melee with = gear of a bard and are getting out DPS in FCOB against those sandbag bosses, you need practice.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

Edit: Also stop saying we want to be on par with the other dps, none of the good Bards here are saying that. At this point you're feigning logic, and you're blinded by your Summoner melancholy.

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Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

My point is the need excuse is a slippery slope because the boundaries between need and want overlap to a huge extent, do people who want SMNs and DRG buffed want it for a guaranteed spot in raid statics? Is that need or a want to be more popular?

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Not everything is subjective.
When changes are really needed, because the balance of the game itself is in danger, things need to change just like it was the case for Dragoon.
example : here
Today, it's the case for SMN and Yoshi-P is well aware of the problem :

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I'm sure the job balance will be greatly adjusted when Heavensward is released, but do you have any jobs that you plan to adjust during the patch 2.5 series?
Y: In particular, I think we need to consider Summoner, but we're still working on the adjustments. Originally, we were planning to add new actions to Summoner with Heavensward to adjust MP consumption. However, since 3.0 is still a ways off, we're thinking about other careful adjustments. As we release each piece of content we see which jobs are too strong or not strong enough. We're also focusing on carefully adjusting things for 3.0, so we'd like to make adjustments as soon as possible, but please wait for a bit longer.

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source : here

Do BRD need change? No. Could it be better with changes? Yes, just like every other jobs who are working.
Needed changes are not all about a guaranteed spot in a raid static, it's just to not be rejected from them and in a general way to not be benched from any contents.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

You don't wait until a car completely breaks down until you bring it into the shop. If your engine light is blinking, you figure out why. The weapon damage issue is like a huge red light saying, "HEY, SOMETHING'S WRONG", and we've given you plenty of reasons to think so. Would you like the answer in braille too?

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Show me some serious cases and situations where a BRD is not welcome and we will then talk, voicing your opinion is the right of everyone but it should be more used in a careful way.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

Those jobs became unnecessary, and therefore under used. Who's to say with the new expansion the same will happen to Bard?
...
Who even knows if Yoshida is aware of how poorly Bard is scaling

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Bard is poorly scaling? Where? When? Bard is an amazing job, providing ton a supports to its team while dpsing and moving, no positional, as Bard you literally flight through fights.

Stop pooping your pants, it's ridiculous really, nothing is happening yet and BRD don't have to suffer from any relevant problem. Just have more faith into Yoshi-P judgement if you want to continue playing for 3.0 and beyond.


All I see is very egotist main BRDs only asking to see their BRD life even more cooler than it is right now. Get into line, there is more important things to do first.

Oh and btw, those screaming bard is only supposed to be a support class, you do know they killed our best support skill right? 　Out of all the raids wiped i thing a whole lot of them would have been saved with a ROD pre nerf

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Originally Posted by mero-ix

If we're going to complain about bards not being close enough to casters in damage, why do casters not complain about not being near melee in damage?

Edit for DoubleD: I don't have a DRG in my group either? And I have no idea what you're talking about "melee with = gear of a bard"..?

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SMN is complaining and its justified. BLM needs better single target damage, but hard to balance because they burn through pulls on dungeons. FCoB was practically made for BLM with all the adds/Melee nerf adds in T11.

And by = I mean both with 135 weapons and comparable efficient gear

Question for all the anti-bards. We were the weakest in 2.3. Was this 2.4 WD nerf that made us even weaker necessary?

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Originally Posted by DoubleD

Oh and btw, those screaming bard is only supposed to be a support class, you do know they killed our best support skill right? 　Out of all the raids wiped i thing a whole lot of them would have been saved with a ROD pre nerf

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People need to stop harping on rod. It's not gone. They took it from bard and gave it to war on storms path the same update. So instead of you blowing 180 tp for every tank buster, war can maintain the 10% dam reduction 100% of the time as a normal rotation. It's better this way. It's up all the time, doesn't utterly destroy your tp, and encourages tank diversity instead of 2 pld setups.

Complains about dps, also complains about not being able to blow 180 tp for every tank buster and big raid aoe when we have it for free now. #OfficialForumLogic.

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

All I see is very egotist main BRDs only asking to see their BRD life even more cooler than it is right now. Get into line, there is more important things to do first.

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Ah don't worry about it. Once 3.0 is released, a good amount or majority of Bard population will switch to Machinist becuase you know the saying "Guns are cool!" :p

Jokes aside:

Just endure it for 3 to 5 months longer and things may settle down once Machinist is released. Though depending on how Machinist plays out a certain amount may go back to playing Bard.

If lucky Bards may even get more new Songs that may prove to be very useful for all contents rather than simply Endgame raiding.

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

snip

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I'm commuting at the moment, so I apologize I can't reply to every part of your long winded reply. It's scaling poorly because of our weapon damage and our secondary stats are so critical (pun intended) that our main stat is being left behind. The % in how dps is being curved upwards isn't perpendicular to each DPS, meaning, jobs like Monk and Black Mage are benefiting more from the weapon upgrades than Bard does. What does it mean? It means we're starting to see dismissing returns, and while it's not enough to set us back NOW, it will be if the trend continues. That's the last time I'm going to explain it, since if that doesn't register with you, you'll have to convince me you're not a brick wall before we continue.

@Illen: please go to the DPS and look into the T11 dps thread, in which the OP requests various charts regarding top performances. There's even a reddit post snuck in there that compiles some of the data. I'd provide my own, but I'm currently traveling to Chicago and I won't be home for the weekend. Then again, parsers are illegal, so I don't use them ;)