SMN redesign in expansion?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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"They need to differentiate the classes enough so they won't be CCs."

SMNs use DoTs. That's not direct damage, blunt damage. (not blunt as literally, I mean blunt as in full damage up front). If their SMNs because the source of their power, then it wouldn't be a CC. It seems like you've misinterpreted my comment lol.

I think they need to give SMNs new DOTs which employ effects similar to saboteurs, or a stance which similar to Rogue/Ninja applies these affects to skills. That way you wouldnt buff SCH as well

err..not to be modest..but summoner have their pet with its own potency rite? if add with dot..do they dun do good damage? it just mp problem that se shuld care and of course the egi appreances..n the tri disaster skill..its useless..melee egi shuld be fast n have good resistance too..

Sorry to shoot you down, but even SMN+Pet dps is less than it should be. Tri-disaster is just as useful/useless as freeze get over it.

Well one thing they could do with Shiva, Ramuh, and Levi is have them as a time limit pet similar to WoW Infernal and Doomguard.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Well one thing they could do with Shiva, Ramuh, and Levi is have them as a time limit pet similar to WoW Infernal and Doomguard.

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That would suck unless the limited pets are the primal itself and Ifit, Titan and Garuda were also limited pets.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Sorry to shoot you down, but even SMN+Pet dps is less than it should be. Tri-disaster is just as useful/useless as freeze get over it.

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I actually like freeze, I know a few BLMs who weave it into their AOE rotations in big pulls instead of using the single target Blizzard 3 to enter their Umbral phase.

Unfortunately Tri-Disaster doesn't have that utility. When I was progressing and levelling up as a SMN I never bothered to read up on what skills were coming to me aside from their names. I honestly thought Tri-Disaster would be an Enkindle like ability that would case all three of your main dots with a slight buff in unison, but with a huge 5 minute cool down.

Boy was I disappointed. A bind that is rarely useful outside of solo play and even then the cast time is so long that the enemy is either dead from dots before it reaches you or you're half dead from enemy attacks before it finishes casting (Source: Personal experience)

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Originally Posted by zeroaru

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Well that's good for you, I does have little uses like allowing for you start your cast off in ice before mobs are back. But generally speaking it isnt necessary or all that useful in the grand scheme of things.

Tri disaster is just a bind, used in speedruns of dungeons (wp in old days etc) and pvp but CC in this game isn't used at end game for the most part. The cast time isn't that long and tbh if you are using it on mobs that can be downed in 3s, you should be DPSing on CCing.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

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I personally don't tend to use freeze as I don't run my BLM much, but others I know love it and use it often on trash pulls or the CT/ST/WOD quest lines.

I know what Tri-disaster is/isn't used for - But It's gotten to the point where people I run with are so overly geared (I'm not, my SMN is i100) that even the amount of CC I'm required to do is negligible because by the time my DOTs are distributed they're rarely anything more than a Fester away from death. It's a shame really because Tri-disaster has one of my favourite cast animations in the game.

Mind you, I'm a main tank so I wouldn't consider myself a career summoner, I rarely run it these days because of the issues it has in end game, if it was a little more viable for me to run endgame without being perfectly geared I'd hang up my axe for good.

I was just thinking about that Sanguisio. With a summoner in group, tank could pull every trash up to the boss room and summoner would tri disaster them. Once the boss room locks agro'd trash stop and go back to their spawn point. Of course this could be done with blizzard 2, freeze, aoe sleep, etc.. In some ways it's probably better than gathering trash to flare/holy spam. Certain dungeons like AK won't work because you have to kill mobs to open doors to demon wall.

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Originally Posted by Romsca

With a summoner in group, tank could pull every trash up to the boss room and summoner would tri disaster them. Once the boss room locks agro'd trash stop and go back to their spawn point.

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Did this is AV several days ago... That's about as much use as I ever gotten out of tri-disaster. I really like the cast animation though.

I just pray they do something to summoner that'll make me main him again :(

Honestly.. a redesign would be nice... but half summoner complaints would dissapear if they just did a tiny bit more dps.. no one actually cares about the manapool, cause they know they arnt blm's. anyhow SE could change everything with just 1 lvl 60 class skill.

*drumrolls*

"Double Summon"

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Originally Posted by prophecy4seen

"Double Summon"

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That would be WAY too complicated, especially since I manually control my pets... and I am sure there are many others that do as well.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

I think they need to give SMNs new DOTs which employ effects similar to saboteurs, or a stance which similar to Rogue/Ninja applies these affects to skills. That way you wouldnt buff SCH as well

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Making the Summoner like the saboteur would make a lot of players angry. The people that want a redesign are complaining that the Summoner is a re skinned Green Mage/Saboteur. People wouldn't complain if SE changed the name of the job to Saboteur and designed an actual Summoner.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Making the Summoner like the saboteur would make a lot of players angry. The people that want a redesign are complaining that the Summoner is a re skinned Green Mage/Saboteur. People wouldn't complain if SE changed the name of the job to Saboteur and designed an actual Summoner.

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Werd!

I'd be pissed if they did this to summoner...

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

Werd!

I'd be pissed if they did this to summoner...

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Agreed.

Tbh, I'm sure 'alot of players' wouldn't just be pissed, but turned off the game entirely if the devs pulled an amateur stunt like this. And, no, I don't think for a single moment that any dev team in their right mind would even consider doing this sort of thing.

Though SMN 3.0 is already done I guess I can add my wishful thinking. Add three non controllable pets; Shiva, Ramuh, and Levithan. Have these Egi be the size of Miqo'te with more detail akin to true primal forms. The duration for them would be between 30s to 60s. The goal would be to give community more pleasing looking Egis, traditional FF Summoner call / release pets skills, and give players more utility in terms of dpsing.

Shiva would be a single target dps
Leviathan would be a AoE dps
Ramuh would be pure debuff

I am so friggen tired of all these wild things people are suggesting. The one thing that pisses me off is my DPS/MP in Final Coil. All these people who don't play Summoner, or dropped it to play something else til Summoner is fixed need to get the hell out of here. The two things the job needs is better mp scaling, and higher potency. THAT'S IT! Losing in damage to even my Bard except when he plays songs is frustrating as hell, and ego crushing. In the expansion, THEN we can get spell adjustments and new skills that make us feel more "Summoner-y". It pisses me off when people suggest the wildest things without playing Summoner at the highest levels, and pushing their limits to be the best Summoner they can be. Stop giving SE stupid ideas so that the job can be potentially ruined.

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Originally Posted by Fatshine

I am so friggen tired of all these wild things people are suggesting. The one thing that pisses me off is my DPS/MP in Final Coil. All these people who don't play Summoner, or dropped it to play something else til Summoner is fixed need to get the hell out of here. The two things the job needs is better mp scaling, and higher potency. THAT'S IT!

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I rather suggest things concerning the summoner skills itself.. i moreover suggest things in redesigning the pets itself..
as for 90% of the summoners they use Garuda in group play (PVP/PVM).. Ifrit for example isnt used for any specific playstyle..

Rather than redesigning the skills of SMN one of the most big problem of SMN is that you use the garuda egi for most of the time. thats why i think that the pet skills need also some redesigns..As i played the summoner in FFXI... where the summons also were able to grant group buffs.

therefore i think it'd be cool to implement Group buff skills (like in FF11) for each pet to make it more valuable in group play.
so that the pets have 5 skills instead of just 4

(also some skill redesign suggestions)
Titan [Defense pet]
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/8e9af7-1423829838.png
Standard attack: Increases Enmity - Additional chance of inflicting "Heavy"*upgrade to the target
Mountain Buster: PBAOE attack that increases enmity and stuns for 1s.
Rock Throw*new: Ranged stone attack that deals damage and inflicts status "Heavy" and slows down the target's attack speed
Earth Guard*new: Transfers 20% damage received by the SMN to Titan egi and doubles the damage onto the pet. duration = 15s
Earthern ward*new: Granting a group buff that increases physical defense by 10% for 20s.


Ifrit Egi [AoE Damage pet]
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/a490ee-1423829831.png
Burning Strike: Standard attack with a potential chance of hitting multiple targets in frontal cone*upgrade
Fire Breath*new: Dealivers a fire breath attack [fire - 125 potency] to all targets in front of the pet (frontal AoE) (like ,,big ifrit")
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/091447-1423829925.png
Flaming Crush: Delivers a PBAoE attack [Fire - 85 potency] to all targets nearby (pbaoe), Additional effect: causes Fire damage over time [20 potency] *upgrade
Radiant Shield - (self pet damage shield) reflects 20% of physical damage received
Enfire*new: Buffs the group with Enfire for 30s - Reuse: 2 mins (Enfire - grants the group an offensive fire proc buff which causes additional fire damage by using physical attacks)


Garuda Egi [mage Single DD pet] (almost fine as it is)
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/b1ca51-1423829767.png
Wind Blade - Standard ranged attack [potency - 100]
Shockwave - Deals wind damage with a potency of 90. Additional Effect: 15-yalm knockback and roots*upgrade target in place
Aerial Slash - Deals Wind damage - Additional effect: 10% magic resistance debuff*upgrade duration: 15s
Wind Blade II*new - Deals a stronger single wind attack [potency - 135]
Wind Shield*new - grants a group buff that increases magic defense by 10% for 15-20s



Ramuh Egi [Damage over time pet] - since lightning element in FF14 stands for Damage over time and stuns

http://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/d1bc70-1423829849.png
Thunderbolt - Standard ranged thunder attack [potency 85] (lower as from garuda)
thunder - inflicts damage over time [15-20]
Shock Strike - inflicts damage and stuns the target for 2s
Contagion - Extends duration of damage over time effects already cast by master by 15s. (former Garuda Skill)
Lightning Armor - grants the group the effect of "shock spikes" (chance of a proc by receiving physical attacks - causes lightning direct damage which stuns the target for 1-2s)





That each pet has a more clearified role:

- titan: [Tank/Guard/Phys.Defense] - tank
- Ifrit: [AoE Damage/Active Group Damage proc buff] - melee dd
- Garuda: [Single DD/Magic Res. Debuffer/M.Resistance] - mage
- ramuh: [DoT/Stun/Paralyse/Passive Group Damage proc] - DoT mage




Group Buffs:
- Titan increases the physical defense of all group members by 10%
- garuda increases the magical defense of all group members by 10%
- Ifrit buffs the weapons with an "Enfire" of all group members (Fire Proc - active)
- Ramuh buffs the armors with "shock spikes" (Lightning Proc - passive)

i havent invented the last skills as they have been part of the summoner pets in FF11.


Because i dont think that they can change the summoner itself that much.. there are also many people around who like summoner like it is.. a DoT mage class. So i moreover think what they just can do is to improve things..

for example giving the group extra benefits through pet group buffs etc.
additionally it would make more sense to use different pets, concerning different strategic situations. A tank in a speedrun with passive Shockspike (DD+Stun proc by Ramuh egi) could be cool if he gets hitten by multiple targets etc.


the current pet roles arent distinctive enough for me.. ifrit has a damage shield.. one gimped pbaeo spell.. and then a single stun attack. all doesnt fit very well together to use him in a specific playstyle. he isnt good in single dd, nor is he usefull as an AoE pet right now.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

I rather suggest things concerning the summoner skills itself.. i moreover suggest things in redesigning the pets itself..
as for 90% of the summoners they use Garuda in group play (PVP/PVM).. Ifrit for example isnt used for any specific playstyle..

Rather than redesigning the skills of SMN one of the most big problem of SMN is that you use the garuda egi for most of the time. thats why i think that the pet skills need also some redesigns..As i played the summoner in FFXI... where the summons also were able to grant group buffs.

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If you're doing FCoB, you're better off with Ifrit-Egi. As most groups doing FCoB will be running with a WAR and MNK, Storm's Eye and Dragon Kick will bolster Ifrit-Egi's damage output. And given that Foe's Requiem isn't going to be played often with the focus of the Bards' attention being on MP/ TP regen, using Garuda-Egi is less effective, in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

Group Buffs:
- Titan increases the physical defense of all group members by 10%
- garuda increases the magical defense of all group members by 10%
- Ifrit buffs the weapons with an "Enfire" of all group members (Fire Proc - active)
- Ramuh buffs the armors with "shock spikes" (Lightning Proc - passive)

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Egi group buffs sound nice in theory, however, WoW went down this road, and the Devs there know all too well that they made a mess of the amount of variables that they added to the mix (in terms of buffs/ debuffs, in general). Doing this leads to either (in the worst case scenario), "taking the class(/job) rather than the player", or having to add more party-wide buffs to other jobs to acheive job balance, which only is further compounded as time goes on with the introduction of higher levels and content (i.e. scaling issues).

I think instead of the buffs from the Egi being party-wide, the buffs could be given to the Summoner -- similar to the Crit-Spell Speed self buff already ingame, and each Egi could offer unique buffs for the Summoner.

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Originally Posted by Fatshine

I am so friggen tired of all these wild things people are suggesting.

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Then don't read them...

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The one thing that pisses me off is my DPS/MP in Final Coil. All these people who don't play Summoner, or dropped it to play something else til Summoner is fixed need to get the hell out of here. The two things the job needs is better mp scaling, and higher potency. THAT'S IT! Losing in damage to even my Bard except when he plays songs is frustrating as hell, and ego crushing.

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Did it ever occur to you that the suggestions that people are making are aimed at the summoner as a whole, in which you are also complaining about? Instead of suggesting a change, you'd rather shoot down other people's ideas that are all aimed in the direction for a fix to summoner.

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In the expansion, THEN we can get spell adjustments and new skills that make us feel more "Summoner-y". It pisses me off when people suggest the wildest things without playing Summoner at the highest levels, and pushing their limits to be the best Summoner they can be. Stop giving SE stupid ideas so that the job can be potentially ruined.

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How can you be so sure that it will make us feel "Summoner-y?" The job is already ruined in terms of uniqueness, DPS, MP consumption and end-game play...

SE already ruined the Summoner in terms of uniqueness by making it a poorly designed reskinned Green Mage/Saboteur with a Pet as an auto turret.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

SE already ruined the Summoner in terms of uniqueness by making it a poorly designed reskinned Green Mage/Saboteur with a Pet as an auto turret.

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I checked to see what a "Green Mage" was, and a Summoner isn't a "reskinned Green Mage", nor is it a Saboteur, which I'm assuming by "Saboteur", you mean Saboteur from FF13.

The pet isn't an "auto turrent" either...

Also, you post a hell of a lot about SMN's, and yet your character can't have seen much, if any, of FCoB based on the fact that your gear is underwhelming. Not that people can't weigh in on matters that they aren't fully aware of at a personal level, but you seem to be constantly posting inane and fickle ruminations based on little-to-no actual experience.

SMN's need help with their mp regen/ management, as well as a minor dps boost (and perhaps an overhaul of the 'rhythm' and aesthetics to the Job), but this is known by Yoshi-P, and will be addressed for 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Orrias

SMN's need help with their mp regen/ management, as well as a minor dps boost (and perhaps an overhaul of the 'rhythm' and aesthetics to the Job), but this is known by Yoshi-P, and will be addressed for 3.0.

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I'm sure Akiza meant Green mage/Saboteur mesh, not one or the other... which is not totally correct nor is it incorrect.

Also, it is not a requirement to play in or beat the final coil to understand, point out, or know that something like summoner needs adjustments. I don't understand people's, no, raiders warped assumptions about something as trivial as this.

And furthermore Yoshi-P said they were looking to adjust the job before 3.0, whether that means begin adjusting the items that need to be addressed (ie DPS/MP) and leave the aesthetics for 3.0, that's another thing, but they did mention that they have been carefully considering changes to SMN before 3.0 launch.

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Originally Posted by Fatshine

Angry Text

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I would just like to point out the title "SMN redesign in the expansion?"

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

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I made a suggest similar to this about a year ago but over that course I decided I prefer Ifrit as a Single Target dps and Garuda as my AoE choice. Also I would prefer to keep buffs on the SCH side of the house but would love to have a pet that debuffs. Titan also needs a provoke ability to be a proper emergency tank. If you ever notice he can't pull hate of the party worth a spit. I was at the point were I wanted him to be a CC pet but end game doesn't really require CC so...

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

I'm sure Akiza meant Green mage/Saboteur mesh, not one or the other... which is not totally correct nor is it incorrect.

Also, it is not a requirement to play in or beat the final coil to understand, point out, or know that something like summoner needs adjustments. I don't understand people's, no, raiders warped assumptions about something as trivial as this.

And furthermore Yoshi-P said they were looking to adjust the job before 3.0, whether that means begin adjusting the items that need to be addressed (ie DPS/MP) and leave the aesthetics for 3.0, that's another thing, but they did mention that they have been carefully considering changes to SMN before 3.0 launch.

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Having mained as a SMN for FCoB and played it throughout 2.3 onwards, I can say unequivocally that SMN's only struggle with FCoB and T8 (pre-nerf), in terms of mp issues. SMN will most likely never be on par (mp/ availability to AoE damage) with a BLM, so mass AoE dps isn't an issue (e.g. 4+ mobs -> spamming Blizzard II after DoT application), so the only major problem is long drawn out fights (i.e. FCoB and T8), which is where the problem became glaringly apparent.

I understand some people have issues with some of the newer dungeons being bothersome, but they're not something that Jobs are specifically based around, as all non-Coil encounters favour certain Job(s) over other in terms of ease and dps output for the fight. Take Levi (HM)/ (EX) for example, it's the perfect fight for a SMN, but you don't/didn't see other people complaining on the forums that these non-Coil instances are imbalanced, because it doesn't really matter.

In FCoB (and T8 when in mattered), you're expected to pull your weight, as much, if not more than other dps Jobs. When you're Job is gimped into not being able to pull off it's maximum potential because the fights mechanics/ in-buily Job mechanics hinder this, then you have a problem.

Getting back to the thread topic (more specifically), I hope (as you mentioned) that the development team is indeed looking into doing something "adjust the job before 3.0", however, as I can't find the article/ video with which Yoshi-P addressed this point, so I can't say much more, other than I remember them mentioning it would be around Heavensward time, which makes perfect sense (i.e. new Egi's > forced re-balance anway).

I know Yoshi-P and the dev. team are rather prescient and plan well in advance with FF14, but for some reason, the matter of SMNs (in general) and their dps/ mp in FCoB (or long, drawn out fights in general) hasn't been addressed properly on these forums by any representative (as far as I'm aware :/), nor has it been explicty been addressed in any LIVE letter/ producer letter.

I'll wait to see what happens come 3.0 anyway.

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Originally Posted by Orrias

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I understand you and thank you for clarifying your stance...

The majority of the complaints are more aimed at Summoner as a whole. I'll admit that you have a pretty good handle on the way you are particularly effected by summoner in FCoB as your explanation outlines it quite well. I speak on the Job itself and it not being unique to even give it the opportunity to perform differently than ARC/SCH <---that is the main issue with summoner imho. If the class differed from SCH/ARC as SCH does from ARC, it might've been an easier fix as it would have had it's own tree to adjust without worrying that ARC/SCH may become OP in the event they change core spells for summoner...

IMO I think this is one of the main reasons they mention eliminating the class system in 3.0 so that they can make changes to Summoner without worrying of indirectly breaking SCH...

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Originally Posted by Orrias

I think instead of the buffs from the Egi being party-wide, the buffs could be given to the Summoner -- similar to the Crit-Spell Speed self buff already ingame, and each Egi could offer unique buffs for the Summoner.

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sorry i dont share your opinion.. as a summoner isnt firstly not known for buffs.. but their summons are (in some FF's)..

additionally it would add additional reasons to take one specific pet out concerning the situation and playstyle.. because for now, garuda is the only pet that is used for 90% of the time in pt

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

IMO I think this is one of the main reasons they mention eliminating the class system in 3.0 so that they can make changes to Summoner without worrying of indirectly breaking SCH...

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I don't know about about the development team removing the Class system for 3.0 or in the future. It's an aweful lot of content (e.g. story, cross-class abilities, dialogue) to have to omit then rework.

From my understanding of the situation, I believe Yoshi-P and his development/ production teams have kept the CLass system due to this fact, as well as saving face for the previous game director.

And yes, I too hope they uncouple SMN from the ARC/SCH trinity. As others have often stated here on these forums, SMN really is just a poorly designed after thought of a Job, with very little in the way of uniqueness (i.e. the SMN only has Fester and unique Egi's).

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

sorry i dont share your opinion.. as a summoner isnt firstly not known for buffs.. but their summons are (in some FF's)..

additionally it would add additional reasons to take one specific pet out concerning the situation and playstyle.. because for now, garuda is the only pet that is used for 90% of the time in pt

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I'm looking at this through the guise of what is already ingame (i.e. there is already a direct pet-to-SMN buff -- pet crits = increased Spell Speed), and that's an easier proposition to be implemented into future content. What I'm saying is, that the player initiates the Egi (either via procs or manually via an ability) to apply some buff to the SMN. So, in essence, the development team would just have to add buffs to band-aide SMN woes (e.g. mp regen/ management issues, susstained dps, etc.). 3.0 would be an idela opportunity given the inclusion of new Egi's.

However, you could do as you seem to be erring toward -- give the party a buff of some sort instead. However, we've seen this before with the inclusion of the Ninja's vulnerabilty debuff. Sure it's nice, but then you end up with a more of a balancing act between Job balance, so as not to leave other Jobs barren and unable to add something as substantial to the party make-up, as well as having to design content (moreso, raid content) around it, in so much as it doesn't aforego certain mechanics of encounters (e.g. Titian-Egi and Ramuh, Bane and Black Fire debuff, etc.).

I'm not saying it's an abhorrent idea, just that I've seen in WoW how stat & ability bloat/ balance become an escalating problem which consequently has to be pruned as time goes on.

I think what SE did is that the three new professions in 3.0 have neither class nor job soustone. They are fully developed when you unlock them. There are lots of way to improve the current summoner iteration without affecting acn or sch.

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Originally Posted by Romsca

There are lots of way to improve the current summoner iteration without affecting acn or sch.

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The problem is that SMN's woes stem from the inefficieny of the mana returns from Aetherflow and Energy Drain, as well as Energy Drains low potency to warrant it's use over Fester to maintain competitive dps. Both of these abilities are linked to SCH because both Jobs are coupled with the ARC class.

In my opinion, the SMN job comes across as a rather lazy and possibly rushed after thought by the developers, to try to add their own Job to the mix, and it feels like it was just left to see where it would naturally progress to w/o much care or thought.

And I have stated in past posts smn should have its piety to mana conversion increased. A blm with no extra piety sits at ~3700 whereas smn is at ~3000. This small adjustment would improve our mana management without affecting acn or sch.

I just want Summoner to be redesigned so it has the uniqueness and flavor like other jobs. SE lazily designed Summoner instead of making a Summoner they made in Arcanist with Fester and Egis.

As much as I want a redesign, I really just don't see it happening. I just feel like it would be too much work for them to redesign a job at this point. They're too busy creating new jobs to really go in depth with redoing an old one. I would say that out of all of the class > jobs in the game, SMN feels the most out of place. Most of the jobs feel like natural extensions of the classes they come from. Then we have SMN. Arcanists are casters who use strategy to outmaneuver their opponents. I feel like poison spells fit the lore of arcanist very well. Then we have scholar. While it's a little odd that a DPS class turns into a healer, scholars use knowledge and strategy to support their allies on the battlefield. Even the weapon (a book) seems like a better fit for SCH. Then we have summoner. A mage who fights using the power of the primals. The poisons spells we learned from our arcanist base class feel really out of place to me.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

As much as I want a redesign, I really just don't see it happening.
I just feel like it would be too much work for them to redesign a job at this point.
They're too busy creating new jobs to really go in depth with redoing an old one.
I would say that out of all of the class > jobs in the game, SMN feels the most out of place.
Most of the jobs feel like natural extensions of the classes they come from.
Then we have SMN. Arcanists are casters who use strategy to outmaneuver their opponents.
I feel like poison spells fit the lore of arcanist very well.
Then we have scholar.
While it's a little odd that a DPS class turns into a healer, scholars use knowledge and strategy to support their allies on the battlefield.
Even the weapon (a book) seems like a better fit for SCH.
Then we have summoner.
A mage who fights using the power of the primals.
The poisons spells we learned from our arcanist base class feel really out of place to me.

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To be fair, you could argue that the Arcanists' knowledge extends onto the Summoner's as to how they actually bind and call forth an essence of a Primal (still through the use of aetheric geometries/mathematics).
Thus, explaining why they can still use skills such as Bio and Miasma.

On-topic, I don't mind either way but if it stays the way it is, then it should definitely have some changes (make all egis viable, buff some key skills, adjust MP consumption, etc.).

I like the Summoner as a DoT based class. We have the BLM as a Burst Caster, looking at Rydia in FF4 she was a Black Mage that Summoned. In this game, the Black Mage got the Black Magic, so Summoner got the Negative Effect spells (Poison, Disease). If you made the Summoner have casting spells it'd basically be a Black Mage with Pets, and there wouldn't be much of an issue. The only change I feel it really needs is you need to make it feel more different then the Arcanist. The Arcanist crippled and slowly bled out their enemies with Poisons, Summoner does the exact same just with different summons. Give them some burst, like it was mentioned above when you start as a summoner you had to channel the Aether. Why not have a channel ability added in the expansion that does more damage the more DoTs you have, so you actually have a high damage ability when you aren't refreshing dots or moving?

On top of that, make Mana more manageable so we don't need to meld for piety or have a bard there to hold our hands.

With the Summons, remove Garuda's Utility and make it an actual Cooldown for the Summoner. Make the Summons all have a niche but all actually relevant. Like, Titan will remain the Tanking pet for when you're soloing. Ifrit should stay the Melee pet, Garuda should remain the Ranged pet. If we're getting Leviathen and Ramuh like people think though? Make Leviathen the AoE pet, and Ramuh have a bit of support with his Kit. Like, Ifrit and Garuda would both still be able to AoE, but Leviathen is actually made for it. But I dunno, haven't played much Summoner since I re-rolled my character but from an outside look this could help to make it feel a bit different and a bit more of a natural upgrade.

The problem with Summoner is it's based off the WoW Warlock with a stronger pet. WoW was one of the last MMORPGS that had a crowd contol/enfeebling sytem and true support classes. DoT in WoW was primarily used for crowd control and increasing DPS for the party by enfeebling enmities which DoT excels at. In this game SE doesn't have support classes or any content that required crowd control its all about putting up big numbers and nuking enemies so DoT DPS feel out of place and pointless because of the way this game designed.

For me I guess it's mostly aesthetics. I don't feel like I'm harnessing the power of ifrit, garuda or titan. Disease and poisons just feel out of place for a job that deals damage by controlling a portion of the elemental primal power. Elemental DoTs would make more sense to me. Maybe helix spells from FFXI (cryo-helix, ionohelix etc.) or even the elemental dots (rasp, shock, drown, etc) and then fester would be replaced by "tri disaster" (same effect as current fester.). I do want more pet commands like enkindle though. More of the damage should come from interaction with the pet. Maybe more off GCD abilities similar to enkindle.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

For me I guess it's mostly aesthetics. I don't feel like I'm harnessing the power of ifrit, garuda or titan. Disease and poisons just feel out of place for a job that deals damage by controlling a portion of the elemental primal power. Elemental DoTs would make more sense to me. Maybe helix spells from FFXI (cryo-helix, ionohelix etc.) or even the elemental dots (rasp, shock, drown, etc) and then fester would be replaced by "tri disaster" (same effect as current fester.). I do want more pet commands like enkindle though. More of the damage should come from interaction with the pet. Maybe more off GCD abilities similar to enkindle.

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Im so glad I'm not the only that thinks that way. I still dont see the connection with arcanists and illnesses.

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Originally Posted by Lilyarel

Im so glad I'm not the only that thinks that way. I still dont see the connection with arcanists and illnesses.

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It's a bit of a stretch, but given that Arcanists are strategists that use aetheric manipulation through math/geometry, it stands to reason that their skills take a while to "conceptualize".

Thus, creating something that harms the enemy while they're planning their current/next moves sounds logical (think of it more like altering the enemies' biological/mechanical/whatever integrity to degenerate instead of regenerate).

At least, that's the way I see it.