Why can't we have jobs with this level of depth and customization in FFXIV?

Its not really that similar to FFXIV at all.

Here is a more recent video of FFXI which I took, Voidwatch era, pre seekers. They did make the game slightly faster, the game still revolves around getting 100 tp use your WS and JAs when they are up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6ukzlBZDlo

From what I heard a lot of people that came from FFXI to FFXIV don't like the faster paced gameplay, as you can see in my video at one point the boss uses sleepga and the whms can curega everyone to wake people up because they are standing in back but it doesn't happen till like 30 seconds later. Similar to mog EX people are use to the FFXI style of WHM won't react fast enough to remove the many debuffs the mog randomly use like the charm, the aoe bemoogled debuff. I seen a lot of complaints about that fight because people didn't like the random abilities the mogs use.

The big difference between XI and XIV combat wise at least is all about pacing.

XI: Use your skills reactively, adapt to the situation. Combat was much slower paced focused around auto attacks all skills were only (Often long) cooldowns, some people don't like the slow pace.

XIV: Use your skills ALL THE TIME, there is little to "React" outside scripted events that make you step outside the painted death lines. The only real difficulty is if you continue to optimize your DPS while running around the field.

Personally I enjoyed the slower paced more methodical combat. I'm not really a fan of ramming my 1-2-3 macros switching it up with a 4-5 every once in a while making sure all my cooldowns are used and not really thinking about the combat itself I'm focused on the skillbar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

XI: Use your skills reactively, adapt to the situation.

---

The problem with using this argument in favour of FFXI's battle system is that the same happens in FFXIV.

It's laughable that you say that "the only real difficulty [in FFXIV] is if you continue to optimize your DPS while running around the field". FFXI didn't even have that diffculty. The only thing it had was putting the player at the mercy of the rng.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

The big difference between XI and XIV combat wise at least is all about pacing.

XI: Use your skills reactively, adapt to the situation. Combat was much slower paced focused around auto attacks all skills were only (Often long) cooldowns, some people don't like the slow pace.

XIV: Use your skills ALL THE TIME, there is little to "React" outside scripted events that make you step outside the painted death lines. The only real difficulty is if you continue to optimize your DPS while running around the field.

Personally I enjoyed the slower paced more methodical combat. I'm not really a fan of ramming my 1-2-3 macros switching it up with a 4-5 every once in a while making sure all my cooldowns are used and not really thinking about the combat itself I'm focused on the skillbar.

---

How is that different then then FFXIV, the FFXI combat of using your strongest WS when you get 100 tp using all your JAs when they are up? Don't say MB and Skillchains because those died out completely during ToAU expansion 2006 when people figured out it was more damage to not wait for scs and mbs and use TP right when you got 100.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilthas

The problem with using this argument in favour of FFXI's battle system is that the same happens in FFXIV.

---

Oh please the only time you use your abillities reactivley is if your saving up for a DPS spike and even then more often than not your better off keeping everything off cooldown instead of thinking tactically.

What RNG is in XI that isn't in XIV?

Just because in XI you weren't running around the monster like a chicken with your head cut off doesn't mean positioning and other key factors weren't important to battle. You had to actually worry about things like environmental hazards, linking monsters, everything could be a threat.

Outside of Instanced boss battles monster themselves aren't even dangerous nor interesting encounters TP moves and mechanics are litteraly ignored because they are so impotent that even bothering with dodging would just be a waste. At least in XI you had to always be aware instead of flipping your "Care switch" on once or twice a dungeon (If you even have to do that these days outside of coil)

It's a different form of combat, they both have ups and downs. I'm just in favor of one style over the other, just my personal opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zumi

the FFXI combat of using your strongest WS when you get 100 tp using all your JAs when they are up?

---

The mere fact that if you spammed all your JA's when they were up would often end in a giant detriment to your character is a good one...It wasn't just about your damage dealing abillities it was about utillity.

Let's take theif for a good example (The best use of abillity timing would really be beastmaster, alot of thought went into a big fight for beastmasters) You can't just SATA whenever you want, members need to be prepared the monster has to be in a favorable position and the timing has to be right to avoid a bad abillity going off during your attempt to SATA.

Knowing when and what abillities were best to Aura steal was also a big thing, knowing the best time to use Hide when flee could be a boon to a flailing party due to links. Knowing your Utsusemi timers well to be able to tank at a moments notice, putting up your status effect bolts when required.

Unless your were lolibri spamming you couldn't get away with face-rolling your keyboard.

Only read the first few pages but from what people are saying:

FFXI: Is for OCD people
FFXIV: Is for ADHD people

So what games do people with Aspergers play?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

Oh please the only time you use your abillities reactivley is if your saving up for a DPS spike and even then more often than not your better off keeping everything off cooldown instead of thinking tactically.

---

So basically, the same as FFXI?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

What RNG is in XI that isn't in XIV?

---

That was my point. That's pretty much the only difficulty that FFXI had.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

Just because in XI you weren't running around the monster like a chicken with your head cut off doesn't mean positioning and other key factors weren't important to battle. You had to actually worry about things like environmental hazards, linking monsters, everything could be a threat.

---

FFXIV has enviromental hazards too actually. The only argument you have here is that FFXI had linking monsters, but positioning is far more important in FFXIV considering that in FFXI you were either entirely stationary during combat (applied to the majority of jobs) or were kiting the mob (which I'd argue is a more accurate qualifier for "running like a chicken with your head cut off").

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

Outside of Instanced boss battles monster themselves aren't even dangerous nor interesting encounters TP moves and mechanics are litteraly ignored because they are so impotent that even bothering with dodging would just be a waste. At least in XI you had to always be aware instead of flipping your "Care switch" on once or twice a dungeon (If you even have to do that these days outside of coil)

---

Yeah, I never see people die in this game. *rolls eyes*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilthas

The problem with using this argument in favour of FFXI's battle system is that the same happens in FFXIV.

---

To be fair there's not many reactive skills in XIV, especially unlike in XI, there's a native delay that's much more noticable in XIV. There's also very few situations where you can actually adapt because a dramatic phase shift would "stress" players and yoshida doesn't want that. So in most content in XIV, when monsters enter new phases via script it's usually much of the same: You're either dodging something or trying to find a particular gimmick. XI also has the benefit of being how say XIV 1.x used to be, you had quite a lot of more choices of skills which could be situational.

For example, Geomancer is an amazing support that likely will never happen in XIV because it's purely a reactive and positional based job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

To be fair there's not many reactive skills in XIV, especially unlike in XI, there's a native delay that's much more noticable in XIV. There's also very few situations where you can actually adapt because a dramatic phase shift would "stress" players and yoshida doesn't want that. So in most content in XIV, when monsters enter new phases via script it's usually much of the same: You're either dodging something or trying to find a particular gimmick. XI also has the benefit of being how say XIV 1.x used to be, you had quite a lot of more choices of skills which could be situational.

For example, Geomancer is an amazing support that likely will never happen in XIV because it's purely a reactive and positional based job.

---

Actually, to be really fair, there are far more reactive abilities in FFXIV than there was when FFXI was capped at 75 (can't comment on how the game became post-WotC, YEARS after release). Both tanks and all physical DPS have innate abilities to either stun or silence. Technically SMN and SCH has them too via their pets.

And quit with the "too much stress" baloney argument already. FFXIV has more dramatic shifts in combat than FFXI ever did when I played.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilthas

*rolls eyes*

---

Hey you like XIV's combat, good for you. Doesn't mean you have to stretch so hard to compare the two.

If your getting killed in XIV anywhere outside of a few choice primals and coil I'm not sure what your doing besides litteraly not paying attention.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilthas

And quit with the "too much stress" baloney argument already. FFXIV has more dramatic shifts in combat than FFXI ever did when I played.

---

It's not Tupsi's words. It's Naoki's stance. He doesn't want to burden the player too much. Which he might change depending on census.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HeroSamson

Uh seekers didn't kill ffxi it was abyss get it right.

If you had gone to seekers at 75 and kept the party base stuff it would of been good.

As for "you would of stayed there" maybe you should have cause you expected to come here for same junk and was disappointed, it's a different MMO with different battle mechanics and game play, I didn't come to FFXIV expecting the same thing, I have played for years since twinkling treants in FFXI to SOA leaving dec 2013 and wanted something different and I got it.

If that was your mind set please don't bring anything from FFXI cause if I wanted to play FFXI I would cancel my sub and go back to FFXI the game still exist.

I understand some monsters from FFXI are in this game and other stuff, though I don't see how puppet will fit in this game or beastmaster which are made for solo game play, you cant take them into dungeons so whats the purpose? If they would make them as powerful as ffxi's puppet and beast it would break the game puppets and beetles tanking bosses and sitting back no thank you.

---

They both killed it, just seekers of adoulin completely left behind the spirit of ffxi where abyssea still had some soul left. I also didn't come here expecting the same, I also wasnt expecting it to be different, I just wanted an mmo that would be up to my standards which it was not and adding good things from ffxi is not going to turn it into ffxi, just a more diverse game.

Like you I played pretty much from north america launch up until SOA (February this year I quit). I have no intent to go back because it is no longer the experience I expect from FFXI and being that experience no longer exists it is perfectly acceptable to ask to see some of it return in other venues. Not to mention that if there is anywhere it is appropriate to ask for some ffxi mechanics its here and if you wanted something different (and you consider this different) there is literally a boatload of games like this already on the market. New to you perhaps, not to me but unlike you that doesn't bother me. I just think its fair to offer some other kinds of content and structure too.

FFXI honestly died when Abyssea dropped. It was the fault of the devs and Tanaka for making the game so very reliant on the lvl 75 cap for years, then gradually out-dating years and years of people's hard work with successive level increases to 99. I remember the rapid demotivation of people on my old server once the cap was raised to 85, and then 90, because even then a lot of 75 gear was still relevant. The release of Seekers (and ARR shortly after) only pushed the nail in the coffin deeper with it's ever increasing departure from classic FFXI metagame. You guys have to keep in mind that the level cap was 75 for almost 8 years (including the merit system). This is a big deal, because it set up the mindset for people to think about horizontal progression, instead of vertical progression, which is a common occurrence in any MMO with increasing levels and iLevels

I personally feel that FFXIV could benefit for jobs that actually have a sort of depth and customization, but that will come with time. They also have to create content based on the current battle system that they've devised -- very recently Yoshi-P said he was very interested in adding Blue Mage, but was having problems trying to imagine how it would fit into the battle system and the overall metagame. Of course, the only material he has to go off on currently is XI's Blue Mage, which is very customizable, but worked because of the battle system that was in place


.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZReport

FFXI honestly died when Abyssea dropped. It was the fault of the devs and Tanaka for making the game so very reliant on the lvl 75 cap for years, then gradually out-dating years and years of people's hard work with successive level increases to 99. I remember the rapid demotivation of people on my old server once the cap was raised to 85, and then 90, because even then a lot of 75 gear was still relevant. The release of Seekers (and ARR shortly after) only pushed the nail in the coffin deeper with it's ever increasing departure from classic FFXI metagame.

I personally feel that FFXIV could benefit for jobs that actually have a sort of depth and customization, but that will come with time. They also have to create content based on the current battle system that they've devised -- very recently Yoshi-P said he was very interested in adding Blue Mage, but was having problems trying to imagine how it would fit into the battle system and the overall metagame. Of course, the only material he has to go off on currently is XI's Blue Mage, which is very customizable, but worked because of the battle system that was in place


.

---

This tells me you haven't even played seekers, because there is a lot of your old gear that you upgrade in seekers. Relics, mythic, empyrean weapons, your old AF+1 armor, and relic armor from dynamis all got updates and use the base pieces you got from 75 content with some new seal drops from updated bcnm fights, your old gear you got at level 75 is now updated to ilvl 119 after some work. The weapons r/m/e continue to be upgarded to ilvl 119 and are still the best weapons and you can't skip the previous upgrade steps and go straight to 119 you have to do the 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 99 parts as well.

SE is going to release items up upgrade your abyssea armor soon as well so that armor won't be going to waste either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zumi

This tells me you haven't even played seekers, because there is a lot of your old gear that you upgrade in seekers. Relics, mythic, empyrean weapons, your old AF+1 armor, and relic armor from dynamis all got updates and use the base pieces you got from 75 content with some new seal drops from updated bcnm fights, your old gear you got at level 75 is now updated to ilvl 119 after some work. The weapons r/m/e continue to be upgarded to ilvl 119 and are still the best weapons and you can't skip the previous upgrade steps and go straight to 119 you have to do the 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 99 parts as well.

SE is going to release items up upgrade your abyssea armor soon as well so that armor won't be going to waste either.

---

Well, they didn't do this til everyone freaked out. The initial response to it was that they had no plans to upgrade rme stuff, then the community had a meltdown and they changed their mind... Im pretty sure thats the same reason why the ilvl is still at 119 atm. Note though, that community team comments have suggested that the ilvl cap will eventually go up again which will once again invalidate everything right out of the gate.

This is getting a bit off topic though, unless people are still trying to push that any and all ffxi systems must stay in ffxi and have no right to be anywhere else. Which makes no sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zumi

This tells me you haven't even played seekers, because there is a lot of your old gear that you upgrade in seekers. Relics, mythic, empyrean weapons, your old AF+1 armor, and relic armor from dynamis all got updates and use the base pieces you got from 75 content with some new seal drops from updated bcnm fights, your old gear you got at level 75 is now updated to ilvl 119 after some work. The weapons r/m/e continue to be upgarded to ilvl 119 and are still the best weapons and you can't skip the previous upgrade steps and go straight to 119 you have to do the 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 99 parts as well.

SE is going to release items up upgrade your abyssea armor soon as well so that armor won't be going to waste either.

---

I logged on and played Seekers a couple of times before deactivating my character forever. This coming from a year break. Wasn't around long enough to see ilevels. However it just proves the problem that SE created for themselves with keeping the level cap at 75 so long -- You have these people who are so scared of their equipment becoming useless and outdated that SE created a way to reuse them and raise their iLvl, keeping them relevant (and perpetuating the problem in the first place). FFXI is doomed now to continue to upgrade 5~10+ year old gear via iLvl or do away with them completely, losing even more subs.

I don't blame the people for panicking or complaining at all.

Would gladly welcome more content and classes/jobs that
players can put the love into. They don't need to change everything
just add to it!

I don't want a carbon copy of XI, but we can definitely pull some
good ideas, and put XIV spins on things. Just like we can from ANY
mmo. Agree with OP.

As much as I want to defend my stance that both games have similar amounts of complexity, it's not worth it. Gonna try to keep this short, I shouldn't have even written an essay length response in the first place. Nobody wants to read blocks of text on a forum. It was probably all ignored until the part where I essentially had a bullet list.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilthas

Considering how many people were complaining about 2.0's battle system being a downgrade from 1.21's, I'd say that the battle system is a lot different...

---

I believe you took what I said out of context. I was responding to a claim that XI had no complexity and was pointing out a few that the game has. You may not have read the first part of the post where I said the games have similar complexities (i.e. I said are relatively simple) and have very different pace of battle mechanics. But I suppose that's my fault for making blocks of text. I didn't expect response to the latter portion without reference to the former portion of what was written for some reason.

And just because this irked me: Yes, I could have pointed out that WHM (my main XIV job) and SCH use of cleric stance to compare it with how Scholar works in XI, but I chose not to thinking it wouldn't need to be said because I thought it was an obvious parallel. It's why I used it as an example.

Now that that's out of the way, I think I'm done with this thread lol. Arguing topics like this is very subjective and this is the internet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

It's not Tupsi's words. It's Naoki's stance. He doesn't want to burden the player too much. Which he might change depending on census.

---

This. It's partially why they cut down the skill and spell list to begin with for example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Estevo

Hey guys, I don't know about you, but I thought these forums were supposed to be for feedback, and I'm not seeing much of that after the OP post, although there are a few shimmers here and there.

---

The OP sparked debate, and things move in surprising and unexpected ways on the internet.

Quote:

---

Their technological limits: whether it's the ps3 or just their pre-made systems, it seems like everything needs to be straightforward and small, or at least not huge or vast, that's something missing in the game right now.

Second is their catering to the casuals. Up to 3.0 Expansion they plan to keep things simple for the sake of new players, which is a no-no if you ask me, but maybe it'll turn out ok...

---

I think it's more the latter. Ninja may actually be a more complex job to play than Dragoon and Monk in terms of abilities. It might be the first step for jobs with more "complexity" to them. Can't really say for sure until they show it off though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by atomicdeath

been about 4 years now. This games direction is pretty much set in stone.

Casual duty finder theme park with a bunch of one shot mechanics and a gear treadmill.

---

3 years (the planning started 2011)

However deep it is, I don't believe there's no BiS, to be honest. Since we're talking about DPS output here, if let's say an armor with "1% chance of your next critical damage to be doubled" or "extends the duration of blood for blood by 5 seconds" increases your dps over let's say a 5 minute period, then that's that. It's what people will strive to build for.. no matter how complex you'd like to make it seem?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

This is X not Y is a terrible reason for not adding in interesting mechanics/depth to the game.
Seriously people who reply like this are stupid.

There is a huge outcry by lots of people for more depth in all areas of the game, from gear, to jobs, to the open world, to monster AI. BUT NOPE THIS IS XIV SO WE CAN'T HAVE THAT NOT AT ALL XIV DOESN'T ACCOMMODATE TO CHANGE OR CHOICES FOR THE PLAYER.

---

You know what's also terrible? Comparing a system with jobs with abilities up to level 99 that has had like a decade to be polished (and still balance is nowhere near as it is in XIV) to a much newer system that is capped at 50 currently.

When someone comes and references Final Fantasy XI's accomplishments IN THE SAME TIME FRAME that XIV has had to develop then I'll take any of these posts seriously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BloodPact

You know what's also terrible? Comparing a system with jobs with abilities up to level 99 that has had like a decade to be polished (and still balance is nowhere near as it is in XIV) to a much newer system that is capped at 50 currently.

When someone comes and references Final Fantasy XI's accomplishments IN THE SAME TIME FRAME that XIV has had to develop then I'll take any of these posts seriously.

---

Wasn't PUP (the job being compared to) released in Treasures of Aht Urhgan Expansion which was still lvl 75? It was released in 2006 btw, way before even FFXIV 1.0 was created so what are you talking about? Also... a game MADE BY SE, had a decade to be polished and seen what works and doesn't... and then most of the experience gathered from creating it is ignored when ARR was being made. It's not like XIV 1.0 and ARR was their first MMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magis

Wasn't PUP (the job being compared to) released in Treasures of Aht Urhgan Expansion which was still lvl 75? It was released in 2006 btw, way before even FFXIV 1.0 was created so what are you talking about? Also... a game MADE BY SE, had a decade to be polished and seen what works and doesn't... and then most of the experience gathered from creating it is ignored when ARR was being made. It's not like XIV 1.0 and ARR was their first MMO.

---

Your argument would be ok if SE just copied XI instead to program another FF MMO with another mechanics and battle system. In a new MMO simple classes/jobs come first as a basic of the game. Complex classes/jobs come later. Like a strawberry cake. You bake thirst the bottom before you add the strawberries. Then the icing and the cream at least. You don't bake the bottom with the strawberries just because you did another strawberry cake before it already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amberion

I haven't followed the Ninja job information, but:



Did they just add LOTR Warden to the game?

---

Yes please!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

It's not WoW either but alas.

---

You're right, it's not WOW. It's Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn. No cartoon land here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magis

Wasn't PUP (the job being compared to) released in Treasures of Aht Urhgan Expansion which was still lvl 75? It was released in 2006 btw, way before even FFXIV 1.0 was created so what are you talking about? Also... a game MADE BY SE, had a decade to be polished and seen what works and doesn't... and then most of the experience gathered from creating it is ignored when ARR was being made. It's not like XIV 1.0 and ARR was their first MMO.

---

The simple truth is that XIV is designed for new players and new MMO players more than it is experienced XI veterans.

Target audience is very much applicable here. Back when XI was released, and during it's development, it was played by a lot of experienced MMO players (especially from EQ which was a primary reason why Square made XI). That's what is being ignored by the player base who have to compare XI to XIV all the time. Different games, different target audiences. There's this strange notion that a new MMO must have everything that every other MMO has had since the first ones came out. I mean, why not... it's not like this is the first MMO to ever be made, either.

On the topic of the level of design into classes, look at how they designed Arcanist for this game. Enough to provide some basic pet interaction, but nothing highly advanced or tactical about their control or AI. This is because it allows the player to focus less on their pet management and more on their own gameplay. Having to focus on just 1 thing can be a lot for a new player (even for some long term players). Having them focus on multiple would be going against the whole "we made this game for new players to start to get into an MMO" ideal.

3.0 is also being designed with this "new player" philosophy in mind, and that's a wise decision. SE know, I'm sure, that the 1st expansion is one of the biggest milestones that ARR will ever meet. Most players will decide at this point whether they want to keep going, and players who have had their eye on the game will decide whether they really want to give it a try. The main audience being targeted are these players who may not have played an MMO before, or even a game (beyond the mobile cash generators they'll most likely have played).

What we need to hope for, though, is that after this big marker we can start to see a general shift in the game direction towards something much more suited to those who have been playing for a while. This I see happening. Basically, the game will grow with it's player base, and the "age" of that player base (by that, I mean how long the average player has been playing for). That age, though, is tied to how long XIV has existed since 2.0, not from when some players first started playing MMOs. Thus, XIV's current design should reflect that of an MMO that is 1 year old. Not compared to an MMO that is now over 12 years old. What worked for XI doesn't have to be carried over into XIV. Neither do the lessons taught and learned in XI have to be carried over to XIV. They are different games, and the design direction for XIV is not the same as XIs in any way or shape at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by reality_check

How about I post this video from 2006 I found on my old computer to show people how dreadfully boring the combat system was.

http://youtu.be/qWrvaVgX69s

Take off the rose tinted goggles please everyone.

---

OMG not no but hell no. I would shoot myself. There's a huge difference between long, fun fights with people and "why am I still here?" fights.

puppet master and summoner would be good candidates for one particular kind of hybridization. They could make it so that their specific role shifts depending on what pet or mode of operation they have their pet in during dungeon encounters. I think he said that he didn't want to make pet operations too complex though. I still think it would be possible without over complicating things (I mean, how hard is it to have a pet stand there and hold aggro? Eos was still fairly manageable on the healing side of things).

I understand his stance isn't to overburden players, but they need to bend the rules a little bit if they intend to make any kind of hybrid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by reality_check

How about I post this video from 2006 I found on my old computer to show people how dreadfully boring the combat system was.

http://youtu.be/qWrvaVgX69s

Take off the rose tinted goggles please everyone.

---

That sure does work if the only thing people loved about XI was its combat.
But that isn't true at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magis

Wasn't PUP (the job being compared to) released in Treasures of Aht Urhgan Expansion which was still lvl 75? It was released in 2006 btw, way before even FFXIV 1.0 was created so what are you talking about?.

---

That's still 25 levels above the current cap in this game. And it's 7 more years of development and planning compared to this game as well. My point still stands.
Furthermore, I'll tell you what; I have no idea what's being pointed at in XI when the OP means "level of depth" because, yes, there were many options to choose from in terms of abilities and spells but at 75 cap (which is when I left) you barely used half of those abilities, if anything, as a magic user. If melee it was even worse. Not to mention that you could watch two episodes of a series in Netflix before having to use your next weaponskill or while resting for MP.
Combos in this game give a flow to the abilites as you get them and it is a good way to make you use your whole arsenal instead of just spamming the most powerful skill, which is what usually ended up happening in XI's endgame.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiverTams

XI was just the most successful game in Square Enix's history.

---

Fixed that for you

Im all for having complex system.
Heck, I loved WHM in ff11.

You had so many spells aside from cures 1-3 and a handfull of heal over time effects.
You could raise resistance to every element, you could "precast" raise via the reraise spell.
They could raise resistance to things like paralyzed and poison.
You could even raise STR and INT of party members...
Was all of it useful? No.
But it was nice to have for times that did require it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Baneus

Indeed. And unlike FFXI and WoW, FFXIV doesn't have 10(ish) years of development (yet. Here's hoping it does).

"Oh, but they should have learned from the past" You think they haven't? They have more access to what people do in the background of a game than any player ever will. All the "I think"s and "but all my friends" are not really good indicators of what the entire playerbase is doing.

The game is moving forward. What we have right now is the basic framework for the future, but it is not what the game will look like even one year from now (keeping in mind that expansions are often used as an opportunity to make sweeping changes to mechanics and classes).

---

They set up the game based on a lot of things that a western MMORPG developer trying to make a better MMORPG would probably avoid if not for how corporate money has influenced developers in the west.

Why was there exactly one tank, one healer, and two DPS positions in the party setup? Because they had 2 tank, 2 healer, and 4 DPS roles. They made an assumption that is plainly and obviously false to anyone who has been into MMORPGs in the west for a long time: That players will evenly distribute themselves throughout the available jobs when one or more jobs possess a clear DPS advantage. That's been around since WoW's release in 2004. I'd even venture the cross-server party match making system (duty finder), which was introduced in WoW as a last resort to solve the queue problem from the class imbalance, was simply put in because of its popularity in other games as opposed to why WoW's development team placed it in their game.

More recently, Yoshida was surprised to find people socially networking in order to overcome the challenge that hunts present. His accident created something that has the seeds of something good and genuine: Obstacles that can only be overcome by putting aside everyone's differences in order to overcome the challenge.

What I'm trying to say is, they don't know what necessarily will make an MMORPG in today's market successful and they've plainly stated that Japan does not have many MMORPG developers. They have no point of reference like we do from years of success and failures. Instead, the game is an experiment in putting different concepts together and seeing what happens.

Quote:

---

Why was there exactly one tank, one healer, and two DPS positions in the party setup? Because they had 2 tank, 2 healer, and 4 DPS roles.

---

Wrong. Duty finder is a thing and having 1 tank, and 1 healer is pretty much required with the other only two possible spots being DPS spots. Notice that any pre-made group can freely choose to ignore this configuration.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

Wrong. Duty finder is a thing and having 1 tank, and 1 healer is pretty much required with the other only two possible spots being DPS spots. Notice that any pre-made group can freely choose to ignore this configuration.

---

That people can freely choose to ignore the configuration is irrelevant. It has to do with the numbers one expects to see in terms of who is playing what. It is not a coincidence that the number of tanks, healers, and damage dealing roles currently in the game are proportional to the slots in a default party size. ST further cements this point by the fact Yoshida changed the default configuration and encounter design to accommodate the current job distributions.

Also, my point was that they have already stated they are trying to learn what works and doesn't work. We can debate the why's of their game mechanics all day, but all I'm doing is making an educated guess based on their visible system specs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renen

Im all for having complex system. Heck, I loved WHM in ff11.You had so many spells aside from cures 1-3 and a handfull of heal over time effects.

---

LOLOLOL Sorry we do not need 6 cures, 5 curagas here in FF14 when in FFXI you only end up using Cure 3-4 and Curaga 3-4

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renen

You could raise resistance to every element, you could "precast" raise via the reraise spell.

---

Reraise spell would be a nice addition here, maybe with level cap?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renen

They could raise resistance to things like paralyzed and poison.

---

Yes except those resistance does not always work, you still get poisoned and paralyzed etc, it's just another layer of "imaginary complexity"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renen

You could even raise STR and INT of party members...

---

Probably will be added with level cap. Those spells do not exist at level 50. Please try to compare FFXI and FF14 with similar level cap and one year of development cycle, though with relaunch, FFXI Zilart would be a good comparison.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renen

Was all of it useful? No. But it was nice to have for times that did require it.

---

Yeah we do not need 100 spells to deal with as healer. Esuna takes care of all. I certainly do not want separate abilities for each status debuff on party member.

Whm rotation in FFXI is not more complex than in FF14, you spam cure + curaga, maybe toss LOLRegen, and then cycle your hot buttons of erase, sacrifice, paralyna, stona, viruna, cursna, and haste.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renen

snip

---

And WHM will have all those same skills again. People forget how long FFXI has been out. Currently we gain about 3 skills class skills and 2 job skills every 10 levels, so that's 5 skills. That means when the level cap is raised to 80 at some point in the future, we will have 15 more skills to work with for WHM. If you gave the current WHM all the skills from the current WHM in FFXI, you would have 0 room to grow. You also have to account for the amount of "fluff" in skills. There's really no logical point to having Shell and Protect as 2 different skills since they will ALWAYS be cast together, which is why SE combined them into 2. Same thing with how Raise now automatically moves you to the caster's spot, instead of having it split into 2 skills (one which moves your body and one which raises you).


At any given point, a MMO developer will have 2-3 years of content planned out, including class adjustments and skills. SE wants the current classes to have room to develop further, which is why things are so basic right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Velox

And WHM will have all those same skills again.

---

So many useless skills. We already have Cure and Cure II that do the same thing, we don't need 4 more. If this is the kind of "complexity" people want, I hope we'll never come to that.