I just wanted to point out a double standard...

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Originally Posted by Tharian

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Square-Enix allegedly in the finishing stages of implementing the Add-On Feature for this game that will allow people to write their own add-ons for the game?

If true then Parsers would at that time arguably become Legal in the form of an add-on that utilizes Square-Enix's Add-On features. So saying that it won't be implemented in the near future kind of depends on how near in the future the Add-On feature will be implemented, doesn't it?

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Except they've always hinted that the add-ons would be UI modifications. They've not stated anything beyond that.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

And how would you be looking at my (I'm a Summoner) DoT ticks when your Combat Log (much less mine) doesn't record them in the first place. It's impossible to look at something that doesn't exist.

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You can see another player's on screen damage amounts. Not easy, especially with 8 man parties, but it's there.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Honestly, I don't care if someone uses a Parser or not, even if they talk about it. I'm not going to report someone for it anyways since I feel it's something we should have access to in the first place. And having something official, party based or not, would help accuracy of the information.

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Wasnt directed at you tbh, mostly to trigger-happy people with fingers on report button.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

Wasnt directed you tbh, mostly to trigger-happy people with fingers on report button.

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No, it was directed at me since your first post in this argument was a response to me specifically. I will say now what I meant to say then. If someone calls me on under-performing on my DPS citing a specific number by which I am under-performing, I will report them.

There is a very valid reason for this. That is all three of the DPS Classes that I play (Summoner, Bard, and Black Mage) make extended use of Damage Over Time spells or attacks. And the only way to get an accurate read on the amount of DPS that a Summoner or a Bard is actually doing is by using a Parser, no ifs, ands, or buts. This is due to the Damage Over Time Spells not registering on ANYONES Battle Log for them to be able to get the raw numbers from.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

No, it was directed at me since your first post in this argument was a response to me specifically. I will say now what I meant to say then. If someone calls me on under-performing on my DPS citing a specific number by which I am under-performing, I will report them.

There is a very valid reason for this. That is all three of the DPS Classes that I play (Summoner, Bard, and Black Mage) make extended use of Damage Over Time spells or attacks. And the only way to get an accurate read on the amount of DPS that a Summoner or a Bard is actually doing is by using a Parser, no if, ands, or buts. This is because due to the Damage Over Time Spells not registering on ANYONES Battle Log for them to be able to get the raw numbers from.

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But you cant prove it(unless the person actually says that hes using a parser). So reporting that someone will be futile.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

But you cant prove it(unless the person actually says that hes using a parser). So reporting that someone will be futile.

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Look at it this way, if I have a reasonable cause to think that my neighbor is running an illegal coke (drug) factory in his basement, I am duty bound to tell the Police whether I am 100% certain that he is doing so or not. It is the Police Department's job to have it's investigator's determine if their is enough probable cause to arrest that individual.

Same rules apply when reporting someone for suspected breach of the Terms of Use. So long as you have reason to suspect that there has been a breach of the Terms of Use, then you should report that person. Hence I would report someone who tells me I am doing under a specified number of DPS on the grounds of suspecting them of using a Parser. Do I have proof? No. Do I have sufficient evidence to report them? Yes.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

Look at it this way, if I have a reasonable cause to think that my neighbor is running an illegal coke (drug) factory in his basement, I am duty bound to tell the Police whether I am 100% certain that he is doing so or not. It is the Police Department's job to have it's investigator's determine if their is enough probable cause to arrest that individual.

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But unlike said Police Department SE cannot prove that you are using it(unlike say Blizzard with their Warden). I mean its commendable that you will report it but nothing will come of it even if that person was using a parser.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

But unlike said Police Department SE cannot prove that you are using it(unlike say Blizzard with their Warden). I mean its commendable that you will report it but nothing will come of it even if that person was using a parser.

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Eh, that isn't quite true. While they can't look at your Computer and see if you have the Parser Program installed on it. What they can however do is pull up the complete history of your characters chat logs. With that wealth of information, they can look at the history of what you have said in game, and determine if you have made enough references to people doing a specified amount of DPS to warrant a closure of your account.

Yes, Square-Enix does store this game's chat logs.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

With that wealth of information, they can look at the history of what you have said in game, and determine if you have made enough references to people doing a specified amount of DPS to warrant a closure of your account.

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How much is enough? What if i just start saying random numbers in parties claiming its their dps, will i get banned for that? As far as i remember only the use of third-party software is prohibited(which they, again, cannot detect), not telling people what their dps is. I guess that can somehow be considered as harassment but what if im just stating the number, with no emotional undertone?

I guarantee you that Square-Enix also has a way of determining Parsed Data for all battles fought on their Game Servers. While spouting out random nonsense numbers probably won't get you banned... spouting out the accurate DPS figures would be a very high risk proposition. Either way, good player policy is to report anyone who is spouting off numbers and alleging them to be DPS figures, on the assumption that they are in fact using third party software.

lol in game GM's cant even contact you when you're in an instance.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

lol in game GM's cant even contact you when you're in an instance.

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Um... dude. Actually they can. They just have to use the Support Desk instead of the /tell system. And if a System Administrator needed to contact you while you were in an Instance, then I am pretty sure they could bypass the "no /tell's while in an instance" black out if they really wanted to. System Administrators are just below the Developers on the hierarchy of power within the game. G.M.'s don't have the kind of power that a System Admin has.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

I guarantee you that Square-Enix also has a way of determining Parsed Data for all battles fought on their Game Servers. While spouting out random nonsense numbers probably won't get you banned... spouting out the accurate DPS figures would be a very high risk proposition. Either way, good player policy is to report anyone who is spouting off numbers and alleging them to be DPS figures, on the assumption that they are in fact using third party software.

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Except not a single ban was given for using it. The only warning was for a person who repeatedly belittled the dps in question, which was filed as harassment, not use of third-party software.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

I guarantee you that Square-Enix also has a way of determining Parsed Data for all battles fought on their Game Servers.

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And i really hope they will give us that functionality so we can once and for all forget this nonsence.

Actually... not to nitpick. But there have been several hundred bans by Square-Enix for the use of Parsers and other Third Party Software. The vast majority of them however took place in Final Fantasy XI in a war between the Developers and the Players over what would become known as the "Absolute Virtue Conflict" where in the developers whose favorite monster was Absolute Virtue, would continuously modify the creature so that each time that creature was defeated by an alliance, that avenue to defeat was summarily removed from that fight by the developers.

The end result was that the only way to effectively defeat Absolute Virtue towards the end of the conflict was by utilizing Third Party Cheats and Hacks (the least of which were Parsers). It got so bad that Square-Enix had to introduce an official nerf to the fight, but instead of doing it by weakening the boss, they instead raised the level cap of the players, thereby invalidating the need for these hacks.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

The end result was that the only way to effectively defeat Absolute Virtue towards the end of the conflict was by utilizing Third Party Cheats and Hacks (the least of which were Parsers). It got so bad that Square-Enix had to introduce an official nerf to the fight, but instead of doing it by weakening the boss, they instead raised the level cap of the players, thereby invalidating the need for these hacks.

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Theres a world of difference between cheats and hacks and parsers which do not modify data, just record. Whereas cheats and hacks DO modify data.

Also you think SE raised the cap just for AV? Just lol. Think you need to study up a bit more there champ.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

Look at it this way, if I have a reasonable cause to think that my neighbor is running an illegal coke (drug) factory in his basement, I am duty bound to tell the Police whether I am 100% certain that he is doing so or not. It is the Police Department's job to have it's investigator's determine if their is enough probable cause to arrest that individual.

Same rules apply when reporting someone for suspected breach of the Terms of Use. So long as you have reason to suspect that there has been a breach of the Terms of Use, then you should report that person. Hence I would report someone who tells me I am doing under a specified number of DPS on the grounds of suspecting them of using a Parser. Do I have proof? No. Do I have sufficient evidence to report them? Yes.

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I'd hate to be your neighbor :(

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Theres a world of difference between cheats and hacks and parsers which do not modify data, just record. Whereas cheats and hacks DO modify data.

Also you think SE raised the cap just for AV? Just lol. Think you need to study up a bit more there champ.

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Oh I know it wasn't "JUST" for Absolute Virtue. But Absolute Virtue was a huge reason for the level cap increase. He was impossible to beat without it at the time.

That said, while you are absolutely correct that Parsers do not modify data, they just record it, any and all third party software that can be used to provide yourself with an advantage over other players is something that is bannable. Same goes for Glitches. Parsers can in fact provide such an advantage. Thus they are a bannable offense if you are caught using them.

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Originally Posted by Richiealvian

I'd hate to be your neighbor :(

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Fortunately I don't have neighbors like that to my knowledge, so I have no reason to report my neighbors to the police for such a crime.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

Oh I know it wasn't "JUST" for Absolute Virtue. But Absolute Virtue was a huge reason for the level cap increase. He was impossible to beat without it at the time.

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Actually SE reduced AVs HP before the level raise and more LSs where able to defeat it.

In response to a wave of bad press surrounding another HNM Pandemonium Warden, Square Enix reduced the difficulty of Absolute Virtue in late 2008. Its HP total was reduced from an approximate 100,000 to around 66,000, and its stats were significantly lowered. A time limit of 2 hours was also imposed to prevent players from fighting it for too long.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Actually SE reduced AVs HP before the level raise and more LSs where able to defeat it.

In response to a wave of bad press surrounding another HNM Pandemonium Warden, Square Enix reduced the difficulty of Absolute Virtue in late 2008. Its HP total was reduced from an approximate 100,000 to around 66,000, and its stats were significantly lowered. A time limit of 2 hours was also imposed to prevent players from fighting it for too long.

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Reducing the Hit Point total of Absolute Virtue did diddly squat towards reducing the difficulty of the fight. Absolute Virtue could have had a grand total of 5,000 hit points for all the good it would have done people... the thing at the height of it's power could literally spam any and all 2 hour abilities of all classes except those found in the Treasures of Aht Urghan Expansion. That includes the one that instantly restores the entire parties hit points to maximum! And imposing time limits on Super Bosses actually INCREASES the difficulty of the fights, not decreases the difficulty. Can you imagine fighting Ruby or Emerald Weapon in Final Fantasy VII if you were limited to only 10 minutes?

Now if you're going to cite the Pandemonium Warden Fiasco, you need to explain what all the bad press was about, just in case there are people here who don't know.

The problem with Pandemonium Warden was that Pandemonium Warden is a Tiered Boss. What this means is that he is identical in nature to bosses such as Chrono Trigger's Final Boss for example. Pandemonium Warden has around 12 or so (not the exact number) different forms. Each of these forms is followed by a group of other enemies that provide support for the boss during the fight. In one of these forms he is followed by a group of White Mages, who again can each use the 2 hour ability that instantly restores all health to a party.

The problem that caused all the bad press relating to that boss, was that one Linkshell had attempted to fight Pandemonium Warden as a World First. They weren't really prepared for what the boss had in store for them though. Cue 18 hours after the fight had started (that is 18 hours of fighting a single enemy), and they had just defeated the latest form, and they all thought they had won the fight, their adrenaline was actually beginning to wear off at this point and these people had more or less been in front of their computers for 18 hours straight at this point running off of a sugar and adrenaline high... low and behold another form pops up 5 seconds later. People promptly begin to pass out from Adrenaline and Fatigue Sickness, which isn't something people want to experience after doing something like that.

Point is, the fight and subsequent fainting spells received a crap ton of press time, and that is what cued Square-Enix to weaken the vast majority of their Super Bosses and / or impose time limits on them. And it is because of this reason that we don't have the Notorious Monster System, or Super-Bosses like that in this game.

In fact, the closest that Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn comes to a true Super Boss (in the iconic sense) is the Odin and Behemoth FATES. And those aren't even remotely close to comparing to the Super Bosses produced by the rest of the MMORPG companies. Until you have fought Tequatl, you really haven't seen a modern Super Boss.

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Originally Posted by ispano

That's because each individual dot tick isn't listed, but the lumped ticks are. ie you can't tell how much Bio is ticking for, only what all your current dots are ticking for.

I don't know the people who make the ACT XIV plugin, but I know someone who worked on one of the other Parsers. It's due to how the system treats dots which is unlike most other MMOs. So you'll see a combined tick for all your dots on screen, and the parser can pull that number. But it has to estimate to figure out how much each individual dot did of that lumped amount.

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i do know the person who created xi app. he stated it directly pulled from the chat log and not memory. that was months ago last time i spoke to him, but that was as of then.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

That said, while you are absolutely correct that Parsers do not modify data, they just record it, any and all third party software that can be used to provide yourself with an advantage over other players is something that is bannable. Same goes for Glitches. Parsers can in fact provide such an advantage. Thus they are a bannable offense if you are caught using them.

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Thats like saying the forums or any website that gives you information on your spells gives you an advantage over other players

This just in: Reading the tool tips for your spells can give you an advantage over other players, so SE is planning to remove the information given in the tool tips in order to level the playing field in the game.

If you can point out to a DPS what they're doing that's wrong without puking out parser numbers at them, you can't get banned. Examples would be pointing out that spamming chaos thrust on dragoon does very little damage. Or that casting only blizzard 3 isn't an efficient use of a black mage spell arsenal. Asking them if their gear is broken or under spec (spiritbonding crafting gear is a big issue these days). Having enough knowledge of the game and the observation skills to watch bad DPS long enough to see what they're doing wrong goes a long way to helping people actually suck less and keeping you from being accused of parsing.

I also think it was rather stupid to call damage dealers DPS and then ban people for using parsers. Smells like entrapment to me. =P

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Originally Posted by Tharian

Parsers can in fact provide such an advantage.

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Nope.

Last I checked, parsers do not directly increase DPS. They simply increase the feedback you get from the game, and accelerate the learning process for the entire community.

All that testing people do to figure out which stats you should pick for your jobs. All those BiS setups. All those effective rotations that a majority of the community reads up on and, if they care enough to not be dead-weight in party content, incorporate into their playstyle. They are results of people testing the mechanics thoroughly with the use of - you guessed it - parsers.

You can say parsers are giving the player using them an advantage all you like, doesn't make it true. A person using a parser in a party is giving the entire party an advantage, potentially, simply if it leads to finding the source of the wipes faster. People using parsers to test game stats/strats/rotations/builds are giving the whole community a boost in developing the metagame. A person using a parser, however, does not have a direct advantage over a person who doesn't.

They do nothing but help the community. People always like to talk about players that will use this info to harass others as an excuse. That implies that a player willing to harass another in game wouldn't already be inclined to do so without a parser, which is quite silly in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Vangl

This just in: Reading the tool tips for your spells can give you an advantage over other players, so SE is planning to remove the information given in the tool tips in order to level the playing field in the game.

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Funny you bring this up, because with some of the things I've seen in CT or Hard Mode dungeon runs blatantly suggest to me that there are, in fact, quite a number of players who don't even bother to read the tool-tips of their skills.

I've legitimately seen DRGs spam Full Thrust, and only Full Thrust as well as some who never use Heavy Thrust. Ever. I've seen MNKs alternate their combos, but stay on the rear of bosses full time. I've seen BLMs who use nothing but Blizzard spells. BRDs who never use their DoTs. My favorite tends to be when a BRD tells you they aren't singing Foe's Requiem because they don't want the % cut to their DPS, cuz it implies they read the tooltips, but also that they didn't.

So, yeah. Apparently people who read and understand the tooltips have a clear advantage over those who don't. By reading the tooltips and pointing out to the player's in my party who I see messing up that they're doing something wrong (Heavy Thrust is good, stop spamming Full Thrust, Foe's does not cut your DPS, etc) I am using the advantage I have by reading the tooltips to give them constructive criticism. That needs to end. Clear the tooltips!

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Nope.

Last I checked, parsers do not directly increase DPS. They simply increase the feedback you get from the game, and accelerate the learning process for the entire community.

All that testing people do to figure out which stats you should pick for your jobs. All those BiS setups. All those effective rotations that a majority of the community reads up on and, if they care enough to not be dead-weight in party content, incorporate into their playstyle. They are results of people testing the mechanics thoroughly with the use of - you guessed it - parsers.

You can say parsers are giving the player using them an advantage all you like, doesn't make it true. A person using a parser in a party is giving the entire party an advantage, potentially, simply if it leads to finding the source of the wipes faster. People using parsers to test game stats/strats/rotations/builds are giving the whole community a boost in developing the metagame. A person using a parser, however, does not have a direct advantage over a person who doesn't.

They do nothing but help the community. People always like to talk about players that will use this info to harass others as an excuse. That implies that a player willing to harass another in game wouldn't already be inclined to do so without a parser, which is quite silly in my opinion.

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Exactly. The whole concept of "People are going to be harassed" or "People without parsers are going to be at a disadvantage" stems from ignorance as to how such a tool function in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Vangl

This just in: Reading the tool tips for your spells can give you an advantage over other players, so SE is planning to remove the information given in the tool tips in order to level the playing field in the game.

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It's actually funny that you mention this, because a while back people wanted the tooltips for base stats (strength, determination, hit chance, etc) to be more detailed so we could better optimize our stats.

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

In regards to showing the chance for critical hits, the team remarked that there are currently no plans to display this in the UI. Players can assume simply that as the stats that affect this grow larger, the effect will become greater.

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Originally Posted by Althea

It's actually funny that you mention this, because a while back people wanted the tooltips for base stats (strength, determination, hit chance, etc) to be more detailed so we could better optimize our stats.

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yeah, great find considering that post of Hvinire has absolutely zero to do with that the poster you quoted said at all. they stated tooltips on spells being sarcastic, but undoubtedly you aren't sure what that is. so you will be able to keep up with the convo you need to be in game, scroll over a spell on your action bar, look at the description that shows up when hovered over it, and understand THAT is a tooltip for a spell.

the post Hvinire is responding to is for people that are asking for something additional added that will show them their crit percentage based off their stats.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Instances where taking extra time to kill things potentially leads to a wipe:

stuff

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I think I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't making the comparison between two types of wipes. I was making a comparison between a wipe and a victory that just took a little longer. If the DPS's slow damage causes a wipe, then they are as bad the healer I made an example with. I am just speaking in defense of those DPSs who get bashed despite the ruin being successful, just because it wasn't fast enough to A, B, or C player.

Odd. Because I know of some interesting instances where as healer I've had to help push DPS in Cleric Stance....
Or had to push DPS as OT or MT....

....It's definitely a team effort guys. Pointing fingers doesn't help you win anything.

And as far as the parse is concerned, you could have the highest dps in the world; but if your tank is getting ripped to shreds and your healers aren't curing and removing debuffs and reinstating essential buffs and making wise decisions in combat, your parse is just a mile marker for a destination you have yet to traverse.

As a dps, I can immediately tell when dps is bad. When I notice it's bad, I start looking at why. Watching all the other dps to see what their rotations are and checking their equipment.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

As a dps, I can immediately tell when dps is bad. When I notice it's bad, I start looking at why. Watching all the other dps to see what their rotations are and checking their equipment.

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Yeah you can tell when dps is low or bad, but it's not immediately obvious which one. With tanks and to a similar degree healers, it's far more obvious.

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Originally Posted by Bluevann

I think I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't making the comparison between two types of wipes. I was making a comparison between a wipe and a victory that just took a little longer. If the DPS's slow damage causes a wipe, then they are as bad the healer I made an example with. I am just speaking in defense of those DPSs who get bashed despite the ruin being successful, just because it wasn't fast enough to A, B, or C player.

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That's the thing, though. Sometimes there is no "a little bit longer but still successful." There are instances where it's straight to "a little bit longer so we wiped." Sure, sometimes it's "Why is Titan at 10 stomps? @_@" but other times it's "Why aren't we getting past the heart?"

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

That's the thing, though. Sometimes there is no "a little bit longer but still successful." There are instances where it's straight to "a little bit longer so we wiped." Sure, sometimes it's "Why is Titan at 10 stomps? @_@" but other times it's "Why aren't we getting past the heart?"

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This is a reality some people adamantly refuse to accept.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

Not double standard.
Bad dps can be noticed in more ways than just with parsers.
For example a boss taking way much longer to kill than usual.

If, however, it's clear that there is harassment over low dps and that the harassers are using parsers to determine low dps, that is clear grounds for banning.

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It's not even just about DPS being low. I had a group today where the BLM was doing single target instead of AoE but they were targeting different mobs than the DRG was... I basically had to choose who I wanted to take damage because with the level cap I had I didn't have the tools I needed to protect the BLM from themselves. I blame the BLM over the DRG because the DRG was actually targeting the same mob I used shield lob on. The BLM was nuking an add before I even got flash off...