Is anyone else really disappointed with the nerfs coming in 2.2?

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Originally Posted by ZephyrAM

Everything is about the fun. If it isn't fun, it's not worth doing.

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Sometimes the challenge is the fun, not the acheivment from "Pushing" through it. Just the challenge to many people is also what they consider to be the "Fun" part. Your on a roll on painting really broad strokes today.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

There are no easier games. This is the pinnacle... maybe unicorn dash or something.. fruit ninja?
The people complaining the most about these "nerfs" are people who won't even see them.

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Oh, there ARE easier games. This most certainly isn't the hardest out there, but it's also not the easiest.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Sometimes the challenge is the fun, not the acheivment from "Pushing" through it. Just the challenge to many people is also what they consider to be the "Fun" part. Your on a roll on painting really broad strokes today.

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Indeed. For example, I could care less about the reward/item/whatever at the end of a hard fight, for me it's the fight itself that's enjoyable. Like Titan EX, most people I see hate it, I enjoy the fight, on all roles no less.

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Originally Posted by DragonFist

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I think you're confused about what an elitist is. Not to mention being insulting about it in regards to people who the label doesn't even apply to. For me, am I dissapointed? Sure. Am I also ok with it? Sure. It means I did it before it got nerfed, but dissapointed because people who want it at the original difficulty from this point on, will have a harder time doing so because most people will want to abuse the nerf. Path of least resistance and such. So they won't get to experience the original difficulty due to other players preventing it.

Learning is fun.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I'm disappointed in the model where only the newest content is worth doing and old content is worthless. I wonder if in 2 years we'll have 50 dungeons no one ever goes to.

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How is the old content worthless?

I still run the old content thanks to duty roulette's. Only thing I hate about low level duty roulette is that I tend to only get Tam-Tara on my tanks.

That ideal of things becoming worthwhile or not is something you do on your own subconsciously due to face value.

I doubt level 50 dungeons are gonna be the norm for another 2 years. We are getting more levels and eventually the 50 level dungeons are gonna become one of the forms to level from 50 to 55 and when that time comes I will be appreciating the fact that there's more than 1 dungeon to level from. I've done AV with a couple of jobs already and I ain't looking forward to doing it with the three 50's that I'm missing since the alternatives aren't worth it.

With new classes/jobs that will be added I wouldn't mind doing those old dungeons to level and get decent DL gear for em that will help with with leveling progression. Though that's in a way off future.

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Originally Posted by ispano

I think you're confused about what an elitist is. Not to mention being insulting about it in regards to people who the label doesn't even apply to. For me, am I dissapointed? Sure. Am I also ok with it? Sure. It means I did it before it got nerfed, but dissapointed because people who want it at the original difficulty from this point on, will have a harder time doing so because most people will want to abuse the nerf. Path of least resistance and such. So they won't get to experience the original difficulty due to other players preventing it.

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And what's with the unhealthy obsession of other players being forced to experience the original difficulty? It's not magically changing the pre-existing version like how the current hard modes dungeons change the mob and dungeon layout or how hard and extreme version of primals simply add more mechanics. It is still the same content.

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Originally Posted by ispano

I think you're confused about what an elitist is. Not to mention being insulting about it in regards to people who the label doesn't even apply to. For me, am I dissapointed? Sure. Am I also ok with it? Sure. It means I did it before it got nerfed, but dissapointed because people who want it at the original difficulty from this point on, will have a harder time doing so because most people will want to abuse the nerf. Path of least resistance and such. So they won't get to experience the original difficulty due to other players preventing it.

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then remove the buff and lower your ilevel regardless of how SE nerfs it as you get higher gear the things like ex primals will become stupidly easy regardless and as for me being insulting tbh i couldnt care u realise how many players every day that are elitists make groups and rage quit or start raging in chat at people for not dodging 1 plume the entire fight or anything that effects the fight end of the day you have 2 options lower your ilevel and remove the buff to keep it challenging or put up with the nerf and stop complaining is that simple you dont want to lower your gear to have a challenge? then keep to t6-9 moogle ex and levi ex untill new stuff comes out u are inevitable going to be getting better gear therefore you will find content easier and easier until the point its not a challenge that is the inevitable fate of speed gearing classes i see so many people spam everything on a monday then moan there is nothing to do in the week also people make coil statics if there was no statics u would not have a group that runs together every week knowing what every1 does i love the idea T1-5 will be on DF it makes the challenge even harder because there WILL be players who have no clue players who die and yes wipes is that not a challenge enough for you tank or heal it maybe then you will find a random party hard when dps arent doing enough healers arent healing properly tanks arent holding hate or using mitigation hell if you win lmao grats u did it with a DF of some ppl that may be good and some that may be absolutely terrible if people want to abuse the nerf let them stick to your fc if its so bad that people want to get things over and done with instead of 10+ wipes a party disband and multiple more party wipes because yes that does happen and no its not something that will be a full party in 10mins if people want an easier way then by all means atleast they are learning(i hope) with the buff so they might not need it next time if they arent confident that they can beat it without let them use it lol not like your gonna be like oh no sorry no buff(insta kick) now are u ...well.... some ppl would but still

I didn't beat EX primals. But I want to beat them if I become better player, not because content nerfed. So yes, I am disappointed of this.

And it reminds me DiabloIII, when I progressed from chapter 1 to 2 because content was nerfed, not because I became better. Same here.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

And what's with the unhealthy obsession of other players being forced to experience the original difficulty? It's not magically changing the pre-existing version like how the current hard modes dungeons change the mob and dungeon layout or how hard and extreme version of primals simply add more mechanics. It is still the same content.

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See that's the thing, I'm not saying it should or shouldn't happen. I understand it both ways. To counter this: "And what's with the unhealthy obsession of other players being forced to experience the original difficulty?" Why will people be forced to fight the nerfed version? And before you respond that they won't, how many people are you going to find that will be willing to do it without the echo buff? It's practically being forced.

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Originally Posted by DragonFist

then remove the buff and lower your ilevel regardless of how SE nerfs it as you get higher gear the things like ex primals will become stupidly easy regardless and as for me being insulting tbh i couldnt care u realise how many players every day that are elitists make groups and rage quit or start raging in chat at people for not dodging 1 plume the entire fight or anything that effects the fight end of the day you have 2 options lower your ilevel and remove the buff to keep it challenging or put up with the nerf and stop complaining is that simple you dont want to lower your gear to have a challenge? then keep to t6-9 moogle ex and levi ex untill new stuff comes out u are inevitable going to be getting better gear therefore you will find content easier and easier until the point its not a challenge that is the inevitable fate of speed gearing classes i see so many people spam everything on a monday then moan there is nothing to do in the week also people make coil statics if there was no statics u would not have a group that runs together every week knowing what every1 does i love the idea T1-5 will be on DF it makes the challenge even harder because there WILL be players who have no clue players who die and yes wipes is that not a challenge enough for you tank or heal it maybe then you will find a random party hard when dps arent doing enough healers arent healing properly tanks arent holding hate or using mitigation hell if you win lmao grats u did it with a DF of some ppl that may be good and some that may be absolutely terrible if people want to abuse the nerf let them stick to your fc if its so bad that people want to get things over and done with instead of 10+ wipes a party disband and multiple more party wipes because yes that does happen and no its not something that will be a full party in 10mins if people want an easier way then by all means atleast they are learning(i hope) with the buff so they might not need it next time if they arent confident that they can beat it without let them use it lol not like your gonna be like oh no sorry no buff(insta kick) now are u ...well.... some ppl would but still

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Read my reply to the other poster. They will have a very difficult time doing so because most people will choose to take the easy way out.

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Originally Posted by ispano

See that's the thing, I'm not saying it should or shouldn't happen. I understand it both ways. To counter this: "And what's with the unhealthy obsession of other players being forced to experience the original difficulty?" Why will people be forced to fight the nerfed version? And before you respond that they won't, how many people are you going to find that will be willing to do it without the echo buff? It's practically being forced.

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And they also stated that content would be nerfed when new stuff is released some time ago. I get that people feel it's being forced on the players, but it really isn't because...well, I won't be redundant. I agree with some points of the debate at hand and disagree with others, but it's happening, and at least some people knew it was coming from 100 miles away.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

And they also stated that content would be nerfed when new stuff is released some time ago. I get that it's people feel it's being forced on the players, but it really isn't because...well, I won't be redundant. I agree with some points of the debate at hand and disagree with others, but it's happening, and at least some people knew it was coming from 100 miles away.

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Oh I knew it would happen as well, I'm just annoyed at some of the responses.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Oh I knew it would happen as well, I'm just annoyed at some of the responses.

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Oh, I agree with that. Some make no sense or very little, other people are just very misinformed lol There are also people using strawman arguments. I agree with some people on both sides of this to some degree though.

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Originally Posted by ispano

See that's the thing, I'm not saying it should or shouldn't happen. I understand it both ways. To counter this: "And what's with the unhealthy obsession of other players being forced to experience the original difficulty?" Why will people be forced to fight the nerfed version? And before you respond that they won't, how many people are you going to find that will be willing to do it without the echo buff? It's practically being forced.

Read my reply to the other poster. They will have a very difficult time doing so because most people will choose to take the easy way out.

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yet you have no proof of this neither do i but hey there just opinions on what might happen you say ppl will choose the easy way out yet i think you have forgotten those that have already beat it wont even need it so the challenge for them is still there players that want an easy way out the option is there not every1 will do things with the buff hell some players may start winning ex primals 3-4 times then stop using it cause they feel they have learnt the fight enough that they are ready to face the challenge

You're not hardcore if you are complaining about redoing old content. Hardcores care about cutting edge content..they don't whine about obsolete content.

Trying to extend the value of your old gear despite new content being available means that you probably barely managed to get it completed in the allotted time, and now you are upset because you didn't get enough time to feel uber.

That's not a hard core gamer... it's a lagger. Hardcores complete the content in the time given without ap roblem and not only have plenty of time to feel uber- but want new content with new challenges and new gear- so they can move on to that, while laggers like you and casuals complete the old content.

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Originally Posted by DragonFist

yet you have no proof of this neither do i but hey there just opinions on what might happen you say ppl will choose the easy way out yet i think you have forgotten those that have already beat it wont even need it so the challenge for them is still there players that want an easy way out the option is there not every1 will do things with the buff hell some players may start winning ex primals 3-4 times then stop using it cause they feel they have learnt the fight enough that they are ready to face the challenge

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I just...what? O_o Now that I've gotten that out of the way...there will be some who won't take the "easy" way out and disable their echo buffs. A lot of people though will opt to keep it enabled with old content behind them (the content it applies to) and new content ahead of them. That's just how most people are. I like a challenge but I don't like to raid, but I'm also one person. I will most likely be keeping my buff on though.

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Originally Posted by ispano

See that's the thing, I'm not saying it should or shouldn't happen. I understand it both ways. To counter this: "And what's with the unhealthy obsession of other players being forced to experience the original difficulty?" Why will people be forced to fight the nerfed version? And before you respond that they won't, how many people are you going to find that will be willing to do it without the echo buff? It's practically being forced.

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It ain't forced it's optional. You can choose to do or to not do end game content. You can choose to run it with your party or pick up strangers. You can choose to or not to use your best in slot gear. You have the choice to choose between jobs and roles. You can choose to use the echo buffs or not. Food buffs, potions, protect, stoneskin, regen, stuns, etc are all optional as well as much as using a Dragoon throughout the entire encounter.

The only thing that's "forced" is the "skill" needed to "complete" end-game content and not everyone will have the opportunity to be lucky to have highly skilled and reliable players to do it with be it from FC, LS, PF, or DF.

I have the option to waste my time with Twintania and Titan EX but I choose not to waste my gil and time on them when I can do something else that's more productive for me.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I just...what? O_o Now that I've gotten that out of the way...there will be some who won't take the "easy" way out and disable their echo buffs. A lot of people though will opt to keep it enabled with old content behind them (the content it applies to) and new content ahead of them. That's just how most people are. I like a challenge but I don't like to raid, but I'm also one person. I will most likely be keeping my buff on though.

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This was the unhealthy obsession I was talking about. You care too much about what others "might" do.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I just...what? O_o Now that I've gotten that out of the way...there will be some who won't take the "easy" way out and disable their echo buffs. A lot of people though will opt to keep it enabled with old content behind them (the content it applies to) and new content ahead of them. That's just how most people are. I like a challenge but I don't like to raid, but I'm also one person. I will most likely be keeping my buff on though.

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some use for old content maybe new players using it most likely new content highly likely so players get a better understanding of fights to the point they can then have the real fun anything under t5 and ex primals i doubt ill use an echo buff for it the only thing i see me using an echo buff for is garuda ex purely just for the hp boost on drg or mnk even tho once i90 i doubt its even going to be needed (i80drg atm) almost got 1shot on drg a couple of times so maybe i90 drg wont be 1shot but the buff for the hp is nice i wont be knocking on deaths door with 186hp or something XD

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Originally Posted by DragonFist

yet you have no proof of this neither do i but hey there just opinions on what might happen you say ppl will choose the easy way out yet i think you have forgotten those that have already beat it wont even need it so the challenge for them is still there players that want an easy way out the option is there not every1 will do things with the buff hell some players may start winning ex primals 3-4 times then stop using it cause they feel they have learnt the fight enough that they are ready to face the challenge

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Proof? I have years of experience in many other MMOs. That's what people do.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

It ain't forced it's optional. You can choose to do or to not do end game content. You can choose to run it with your party or pick up strangers. You can choose to or not to use your best in slot gear. You have the choice to choose between jobs and roles. You can choose to use the echo buffs or not. Food buffs, potions, protect, stoneskin, regen, stuns, etc are all optional as well as much as using a Dragoon throughout the entire encounter.

The only thing that's "forced" is the "skill" needed to "complete" end-game content and not everyone will have the opportunity to be lucky to have highly skilled and reliable players to do it with be it from FC, LS, PF, or DF.

I have the option to waste my time with Twintania and Titan EX but I choose not to waste my gil and time on them when I can do something else that's more productive for me.

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It's an illusion of choice. Always has and always will be when the majority is against you. When the majority choose to keep the buff, and based on my experience, they will, even if you remove yours, the fight as a whole is still nerfed for that person. When the majority chooses to accept the buff, that leaves less people that want to do it at the normal difficulty, making it harder and sometimes impossible to find them. Again, this is from experience.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

This was the unhealthy obsession I was talking about. You care too much about what others "might" do.

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I'm not obsessing about what others "might" do at all. I've just been around the block enough to get a general idea. Do I know that this is exactly how things will play out? Of course not. I do however have some experience in how people approach content that has been nerfed.

[QUOTE=ispano;1969688]Proof? I have years of experience in many other MMOs. That's what people do.

because your experience is everyone's experience lul ..... such a joke XD ive played many MMO's doesnt mean i can mind read over 1million people that play 1 specific game and be like YEAHHHH ITS GONNA SUCK lol.....
every mmo is different unless ofcourse the players are the exact same people that played your previous MMO wich btw i highly doubt not every1 is the same and not every1 has had players in MMOs saying oohh look a buff should we make this golem boss 99times easier by using it? some actually have and some have actually opt to not use it for the extra fun heck when ifrit hard was still fairly new my old FC did ifrit HM naked with only relic weapons just for fun and we still won oh and silly hats for fun :)
as you said earlier some people like a challenge some dont so yes some will use it might be the majority just means those that dont want it have to seek other players that also dont want it you are not being forced to play with people that want the buff go make a PF and put in the comment no echo buff or something

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Originally Posted by DragonFist

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Until you, and others it seems, understand that having a "choice" does not mean you always get to exercise said choice, this conversation will go nowhere. People have tried to use that argument since likely before i've played MMOs. It still doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by DragonFist

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I had found myself somewhat agreeing with your last post directed at me, but I'm back to disagreeing with you on this. I've had years of experience in other MMOs as well, and while I CAN say that all people are different, most people will in all likelihood flock to the easiest path to take in regards to content. If it's quick and efficient then it is "the way" to go, and that goes for all content old and new. That doesn't make any of it any less challenging, depending on the person though. A good bit of the newer generation of MMO players are all about the numbers and speed, and I speak from experience. I'm not saying EVERYONE will approach nerfed content in this game in this manner, but history repeats itself quite often.

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Originally Posted by ispano

It's an illusion of choice. Always has and always will be when the majority is against you. When the majority choose to keep the buff, and based on my experience, they will, even if you remove yours, the fight as a whole is still nerfed for that person. When the majority chooses to accept the buff, that leaves less people that want to do it at the normal difficulty, making it harder and sometimes impossible to find them. Again, this is from experience.

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It's not an illusion. Those choices are there. The fact that you aren't doing them are obvious though. Which is hilarious since now you're arguing that "others" are what prevent "you" when you were talking about "others" and not "you" previously to this statement.

Which means ApolloGenX was right in his observations.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I'm not obsessing about what others "might" do at all. I've just been around the block enough to get a general idea. Do I know that this is exactly how things will play out? Of course not. I do however have some experience in how people approach content that has been nerfed.

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That unhealthy obsession still lingers. Since people did it then, do it now, will be doing so in the future.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Until you, and others it seems, understand that having a "choice" does not mean you always get to exercise said choice, this conversation will go nowhere. People have tried to use that argument since likely before i've played MMOs. It still doesn't work.

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That's funny because you can exercise said choice but you only get to choose the outcome of one said choice. This conversation isn't going anywhere because you only want it your way not because there's a discussion to be had.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

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The only obsessing going on that I see is yours about what I have to say. If you don't agree with me, that is fine. This is a public forum. I am, however, not obsessing about anything. I'm taking part in a public discussion and expressing my own opinions as everyone else is. I'm not saying that I'm right, but it's the way I feel and how I have experienced things. I don't think it's a coincidence though that others have had the same experiences.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

So you get to partake in a public discussion but not I when it doesn't befit your interest? That's pretty funny.

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I never said anything to that affect. You are free to take part, just like everyone else in this thread is doing. I'm also allowed to disagree with you. You are allowed to disagree in turn. It's a public discussion.

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Originally Posted by ispano

poke.

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lmao not being allowed to choose between using a buff or not yeah because its totally locked onto your buff bar active and you totally are not allowed to seek players who also dont want the buff for content

explain to every1 how you wont get to exercise that choice because you kinda can and thats by making your own party instead of joining others

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

The only obsessing going on that I see is yours about what I have to say. If you don't agree with me, that is fine. This is a public forum. I am, however, not obsessing about anything. I'm taking part in a public discussion and expressing my own opinions as everyone else is. I'm not saying that I'm right, but it's the way I feel and how I have experienced things. I don't think it's a coincidence though that others have had the same experiences.

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So you get to partake in a public discussion but not I when it doesn't befit your interest? That's pretty funny.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I had found myself somewhat agreeing with your last post directed at me, but I'm back to disagreeing with you on this. I've had years of experience in other MMOs as well, and while I CAN say that all people are different, most people will in all likelihood flock to the easiest path to take in regards to content. If it's quick and efficient then it is "the way" to go, and that goes for all content old and new. That doesn't make any of it any less challenging, depending on the person though. A good bit of the newer generation of MMO players are all about the numbers and speed, and I speak from experience. I'm not saying EVERYONE will approach nerfed content in this game in this manner, but history repeats itself quite often.

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some players might quit some might come back some might just stop doing endgame untill expansion comes out so they have a large amount of gear to gain instead of being bored after 3 months of farming coil and being max level for 'class' this echo buff really doesnt change content sure you get hp so you dont get 1shot sure you get extra dammage makes the fight shorter sure healers heal for alot more still doesnt stop players being screwed by T5 twintania dive wich knocks u into the fire wich is insta ko or titans landslide or garudas whirlwind crap a buff is a buff it will not stop players dieing however having 10k hp pld at i90 with 30% hp buff is pretty sweet XD

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

It's not an illusion. Those choices are there. The fact that you aren't doing them are obvious though. Which is hilarious since now you're arguing that "others" are what prevent "you" when you were talking about "others" and not "you" previously to this statement.

Which means ApolloGenX was right in his observations.

That's funny because you can exercise said choice but you only get to choose the outcome of one said choice. This conversation isn't going anywhere because you only want it your way not because there's a discussion to be had.

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Sorry, but it is an illusion. Making the choice to do the content unnerfed, but not being able to do said content because of that "choice" due to others making a different choice is not really a choice at all. So sure, you can make said choice, but it doesn't get you anywhere, which is why it's an illusion. Also, if you've read my posts, I see it both ways, I personally am indifferent to the change since I see the pros and cons to both. I also knew ahead of time this would be done.

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Originally Posted by DragonFist

lmao not being allowed to choose between using a buff or not yeah because its totally locked onto your buff bar active and you totally are not allowed to seek players who also dont want the buff for content

explain to every1 how you wont get to exercise that choice because you kinda can and thats by making your own party instead of joining others

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No, it's about choosing to do the content unnerfed. Just because random Joe A chooses he wants to do it unnerfed, doesn't mean he CAN. He has to find 7 other people who are also willing, which may not be possible depending on server and timezone. It's not so simple a choice, it only comes down to simple choice if the content is solo, like Story quest instances for example.

So tell me, how is he to do the content with no nerfs, if everyone else doesn't want to? It's like now, try to find a T2 group that DOESN'T abuse enrage, it happens sometimes if you find a static that's missing a member, but even now many statics do it as well.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Sorry, but it is an illusion. Making the choice to do the content unnerfed, but not being able to do said content because of that "choice" due to others making a different choice is not really a choice at all. So sure, you can make said choice, but it doesn't get you anywhere, which is why it's an illusion. Also, if you've read my posts, I see it both ways, I personally am indifferent to the change since I see the pros and cons to both. I also knew ahead of time this would be done.

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lol " Making the choice to do the content unnerfed, but not being able to do said content because of that "choice" due to others making a different choice is not really a choice at all."

this makes my day tell me are you against this echo buff and other nerfs because ive seen plenty of people do T2 the normal way and alot do it the enrage way just because the option is there not every 1 will go for it again your opinion is now invalid as proof of the fact people still do T2 normally you say there arent people willing to do the challenge yet there are people who do 1tank extremes solo heal extremes solo tank t4(havent seen t5 done yet) solo heal all t1-5. so the choice to make t5 harder with a solo healer or solo tank is there
theres no choice for not using the echo buff? lmao u make me laugh

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Originally Posted by DragonFist

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Again, I only speak from experience. When I was new to MMOs I thought like you, it didn't take long to see what happens most of the time however. It's still rather simple. Making a choice to do the content unnerfed, doesn't mean that person can. But on the other side, people who DO want to do it nerfed will have an EASY time of it. It's an illusion, and it's lopsided. I've already pointed out that I understand the pros and cons for and for not nerfing it. And i've told you some of those cons, and you just refuse to understand, so no need to continue with you.

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Originally Posted by DragonFist

lol " Making the choice to do the content unnerfed, but not being able to do said content because of that "choice" due to others making a different choice is not really a choice at all."

this makes my day tell me are you against this echo buff and other nerfs because ive seen plenty of people do T2 the normal way and alot do it the enrage way just because the option is there not every 1 will go for it again your opinion is now invalid as proof of the fact people still do T2 normally you say there arent people willing to do the challenge yet there are people who do 1tank extremes solo heal extremes solo tank t4(havent seen t5 done yet) solo heal all t1-5. so the choice to make t5 harder with a solo healer or solo tank is there
theres no choice for not using the echo buff? lmao u make me laugh

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That is indeed hilarious.

put a party finder up and wait simple as just because joe blogs or whatever cant find 7 ppl at his time zone doesnt mean other people havent been able too hell if your having trouble then thats too bad but the fact is people will do it for the challenge and in my previous post i also mentioned how ppl solo tank and heal this crap you want a challenge and T2 is done by some statics the normal way sure not all statics do it never said they did some do opt for the easy route but those that opt for the enrage does not = the entire server
also if your party does not want to do it the hard way go find a different party its not going to kill u to do a couple of runs with the echo buff but then again u might get lucky and fight a non-buff party if all else fails and u feel completely dissapointed with the server just go swap to a hardcore server or something godknows wat server has the most hardcore ppl but mehh its your choice at the end of the day either you make a party finder and wait god knows how long for it to fill up for no buffs or you join a buff party its 1 or the other just because u dont like to wait for 7 ppl doesnt mean the option isnt there

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Originally Posted by ispano

Again, I only speak from experience. When I was new to MMOs I thought like you, it didn't take long to see what happens most of the time however. It's still rather simple. Making a choice to do the content unnerfed, doesn't mean that person can. But on the other side, people who DO want to do it nerfed will have an EASY time of it. It's an illusion, and it's lopsided. I've already pointed out that I understand the pros and cons for and for not nerfing it. And i've told you some of those cons, and you just refuse to understand, so no need to continue with you.

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lmao yet im not new to mmo's i dont have problems finding people for a party i dont have problems with people opt for T2 normal instead of enrage i havent tried extremes with 1 healer or tank but at some point i would like to. sure half the ppl go for the easy option BUT THAT IS NOT EVERY1 people will try for a challenge its not set in stone "EVERY1 WILL BE BUFF ABUSERS" i know i wont sure ill use it for maybe learning t6+ other than that i have no real use for it apart from garuda ex on my mnk and drg cause they arent i90 yet so cant fully take the hit of wicked wheel so you can moan all u like tbh i know for fact there are going to be players that will try things without the buff and there are players that will use the buff for almost everything and about 50% of those people are going to be the people with latency issues or still play ps3 instead of ps4

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Originally Posted by ispano

Very poor way to label. The correct way is Casuals = Fun, Hardcore = Fun. The problem with how you did it is you label Hardcore players as not having fun, when in fact, the challenge is what MAKES it fun. If there's no challenge, it's the same as watching TV. ie Fun is subjective. Everyone plays a game to have fun, your fun isn't the same as everyone elses.

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quoting everyone else here as it seems nerfing it ie. the challenge seems to be such a huge deal. challenge and fun are two very different things that yes, can be related. It was a very loosley based terminology which im assuming you did not get.

casuals are here for the fun of being with others and being able to complete content eventually with friends as most elitist make them feel bad because they are not as skilled as them.
hardcores are here for the fun of having a challenge and pushing themselves to the limit.

is that better for you to understand my reasoning?

and as far as the buff goes Yoshi did say that it was totally optional and you would be able to remove it should you seek the challenge you all crave oh so much.

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Originally Posted by Axlle10

casuals are here for the fun of being with others and being able to complete content eventually with friends as most elitist make them feel bad because they are not as skilled as them.
hardcores are here for the fun of having a challenge and pushing themselves to the limit.

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I'd agree, except that casual does not necessarily mean unskilled. I hate that association. Many people that are casual now, used to be hardcore. They just don't have the time or desire to do that anymore. That doesn't mean they can't quickly learn fights, if people are willing to give a run more than one wipe before a "fu newb" rage quit by the self-proclaimed "hardcore elite." Most people that are "casuals" would be more than happy to do content at the current difficulty level if the "hardcore" would stop berating people that haven't already done a fight 100 times.

I remember when I used to play with *hardcore* players :D The current day *hardcore* player is an extremely watered down representation of *hardcore*.

eg: Fangblade on MapleStory going from lvl 199 to lvl 200, 20k-50k per kill to achieve 600 billion experience and it took like 6-8 weeks to get there. These days *hardcore* cry if they have to kill the same mob 100 times or if they aren't given new toys every few weeks to keep them amused, *hardcore* of the past happily killed the same mob a million times over.

*Hardcore* of the past didn't give a rip that content they had completed was nerfed to be easier for newcomers they were too busy completing the stuff they needed to complete their own goals. Frankly if nerfing old content helps get more people levelled and playing the game then it is a bonus to everyone. I won't call current players *hardcore* instead I will call you *elitists* because after all the majority of you didn't really trail blaze anything you just perfected using youtube and learning how the real trail blazers completed stuff.

I for one am happy to see the changes because I'm not one of those players who will ever be considered as *uber/elite* whatever. I am an older gamer and I don't have the eye to hand coordination a lot of the younger players who have done this stuff since kindergarten have. For me the nerfs mean I will get to enjoy the game just that little bit more and that suits me just fine. If you are in the same run as me feel free to turn your buffs off because I won't hold it against you just as you shouldn't hold it against me for having them on.

Enjoy FFXIV and stop trying to force your ideas on everybody else and let each of us play the game in a style that suits us.

I'm just disappointed with ppl's attitudes towards 2.2
So much hate for new concepts and stuff to do.
Too much theory craftting?
If i beated turn 5 with ease and with little to no effort hell, i would love to go rub it in a try hard's face and say
" loooool i beat this post patch with ease. Have you beaten T9 yet or do u still just feel special about that T5 kill u got months ago. "
Then i'll proceed to use sprint and spam cure on that guy and regen. Maybe some holys if i feel dicey! Huzzah for content nerf seriously.

Older content should become naturally easier with better gear and also through experience with the content itself not with nerfs, though that pretty much applies to all content really and that better gear will be easier to get with uncapped myth or drops from the dungeons themselves. Nerfing content that was already nerfed twice is just a sad practice, I still remember how it was actually somewhat challenging and fun doing AK on the very first two weeks of 2.0 doing it in with half AF half militia gear and even some GC gear, really whatever highest gear from 1.0 we could scrap while still farming for DL, myth AF or even a relic. The issue with AK was it being the only dungeon, out of arguably only 4 endgame dungeons not counting Coil and counting both final story dungeons, that dropped myth and substantial philosophy so everyone got understandably and rightfully tired of it, the mobs also didn't drop any gil so it was more effective gear damage wise to skip everything and have the tank die thanks to the wonky durability system.

Then there's the issue of EX primals being only 3 months old and already having an echo buff applied to them, I get some people just want to clear stuff for the story and have multiple jobs and families and it gets tiresome when someone screws up, including myself, and that content can't be cleared, but really it just feels better when there's an actual challenge behind it and it feels like you earned a victory and it wasn't just handed to you even with multiple wipes. It really isn't an elitist attitude or whatever you want to call it either, I really still don't believe there are people who are just that inexperienced with MMOs or videogames in general for content to be that much difficult or even outright impossible for them or that players are that "casual", even after seeing how bad things can get having cleared HM Titan before 2.1 using the DF only twice out of almost 100 runs and me dying on the second DF clear, and yes you can turn the buff off but honestly I don't see many people doing that once it's on except for "fun" runs with say a FC group. Though honestly that's how the game was shaping up from the very beginning with story quests having NPCs added that weren't needed or poison damage being nerfed into the ground in a certain quest that was also kinda fun before the nerf, and sadly that's how the game will keep going towards the future, if you don't like it leave, stuff, can have, etc.

sorry, did not mean to come off as saying casual =/= skill. yes i do know of several casual players who can successfully down most of the encounters with ease. What i said is the most common excuse elitists will use when a person doesnt know the rotations by heart and gets hit by one thing. Its more along the lines of elitists need to stop being so negative and realize this is just a game and that we ALL could be doing something better with our lives. But this is the internet, where the greatest boss you will ever have to defeat is other peoples egos. Nerfing this content wont change the fact that you hardcores beat it first, it wont change the fact that others get to gear up a little easier than you, and it certainly wont change the fact that when the casuals get to where you hardcores are now; you will belittle and berate them for making one mistake that seems so simple and easy to you.

I miss old content getting easier because you got higher in level and better gear.

But now it's level cap in days and gear in weekly lock outs. It doesn't work that way. You don't slowly get better.

So they have to bring content out of reach down.

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Originally Posted by delphinius81

Most people that are "casuals" would be more than happy to do content at the current difficulty level if the "hardcore" would stop berating people that haven't already done a fight 100 times.

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Actually I find the casual groups more hard on ppl than the elitists. Even in pt and fc recruitments you quite often see "no hardcore elitist jerks" but you seldom see the flip side. I know much of the content and am always willing to help out players who are learning but if you put something to this effect in any of your msgs you get nothing from me. And the rage quitters I normally encounter are those who want to be carried and if you wipe a couple times they quit. Its a two way street, really tired of the non hardcore crowd making only us look like the jerks.

What the more casual groups do not understand most the time is sometimes, like you, we just want to get our win and be done so we can log out or move on, we don't want to teach or carry someone every single time we put up party finder. That's why groups check progression or kick if you are wiping the group or holding them back. There are many hardcore individuals and fcs who are out there and willing to help you learn or progress but you need to not have such an automatic bad attitude toward them.

Same goes in a fc. I am here and willing to help but sometimes you just need to wait cause I cannot drop everything and run to your side to guide you thru a dungeon or primal because you have to work in an hour. I'm not saying all hardcores are nice, there are the jerks out there. But please don't assume we are all like that. There are good and bad on both sides, its just that its more acceptable for us to get berated.