Market Wards vs AH

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Originally Posted by Spellstar

What do you know about SE time-scales and how long programming takes?

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back already?

Completely new features aren't programmed, implemented and *tested* overnight, especially when affecting a crucial mechanic like the economy. I doubt SE wants some gil duping glitch running around this game.

On the other hand, adding features to existing implementations is much easier and faster, as most of the bones of the system are already in place.

So yeah, while he obviously put in some numbers for the sake of example, it's pretty obvious that adding features to the current system would be faster and more resource-efficent than scrapping it and implementing a new one.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

ok I now declare all of us that are now on the same page as being in favor of the "Duck" system!

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I approve of this idea. I'll give the dev team the go-ahead.

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Originally Posted by Spellstar

I would accept the wards as a full featured AH if they could do the following - Not make me zone in and out of 20 different instanced areas to buy each item i want. Then it would be an AH. If you still have to zone around form place to place then its not a fully featured AH - its a Market Ward with a search function.

As for what you call it - i dont care, you could call it the Duck House for all i care, as long as its secretly called the auction house by all normal people.

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Then I encourage you and others, instead of copntinuously opening and spamming threads demanding an AH, to request them to add a consignment system to the market wards. Which, by the way, would probably also force them to add a mail system, taking two birds with one stone.

I'd be all for it.

And before someone tells me "but it'd be an AH! So why not just scrapping the market wards and create an AH?"

The answer is: because it would be an AH that includes feature that AHs don't have, like visual shopping, impulse purchases, and eyecandy.
And ultimately because building over an existing system would let them save resources that they can use elsewhere, and this game NEEDS those resources allocated to a ton of different stuff.

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Originally Posted by Spellstar

What do you know about SE time-scales and how long programming takes?

You either
A: Are spouting complete rubbish, spewing it all over this nice shiny new forum, pulling numbers out of a hat and ramming them down our throat as facts that we should believe to be true as much as Coke is Dark Brown (its not its white btw)
or
B: Work inside SE or a similiarly sized Production House in a senior capacity with your finger on the pulse of how long it takes to write an AH or update market bored's - erm i mean wards.

Lets have a Poll, do you think he fits into category A or B everyone?

Vote Now to receive the grand prize ! A shiny new AH delivered to a game client near you !

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Funny thing is. One of those is pretty close.

P.S. Just because I have worked in the industry I do not feel that my opinion bears more weight than yours.

There is nothing complicated about making an AH, except maybe the backend system to link to the AH. If developers have problems with that, they should be shot with having that kind of coding in a MMO.

An AH is basically a database lookup. Anyone can do it with minimum knowledge, and even steal-able in this day and age. Any old budding web developer would have done it.

It may have been hard two decades ago when you had to actually make something, but these days with SQL databases ready to program. It's a wonder why it's not in next week.

laymen's recipe:
1: have a SQL database
2: program it to have input and output
3: Think up filters that will display what you want
4: It's done, now just draw a GUI around it

Where market wards would probably all kind of insanity, from debugging a retainer, to tracking down it's position, to making sure the server load doesn't go boom.

I have no explaination why people would like the retainer system other then graphics. It's worse then an AH, slower then an AH, and takes more effort to add features then an AH. It's basically getting ripped off by a used car salesman.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

There is nothing complicated about making an AH, except maybe the backend system to link to the AH. If developers have problems with that, they should be shot with having that kind of coding in a MMO.

An AH is basically a database lookup. Anyone can do it with minimum knowledge, and even steal-able in this day and age. Any old budding web developer would have done it.

It may have been hard two decades ago when you had to actually make something, but these days with SQL databases ready to program. It's a wonder why it's not in next week.

laymen's recipe:
1: have a SQL database
2: program it to have input and output
3: Think up filters that will display what you want
4: It's done, now just draw a GUI around it

Where market wards would probably all kind of insanity, from debugging a retainer, to tracking down it's position, to making sure the server load doesn't go boom.

I have no explaination why people would like the retainer system other then graphics. It's worse then an AH, slower then an AH, and takes more effort to add features then an AH. It's basically getting ripped off by a used car salesman.

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You lost me at the "anyone can do it". After that I was too busy laughing :rolleyes:

Though, I can provide you with SE's adress. Then you can send them a resume and prove it :D


(though I would advise not to include in your cover letter this massively oversimplified vision of your perspective job description, I feel it would equally massively reduce your chances to actually prove your worth)

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You lost me at the "anyone can do it". After that I was too busy laughing :rolleyes:

Though, I can provide you with SE's adress. Then you can send them a resume and prove it :D


(though I would advise not to include in your cover letter this massively oversimplified vision of your perspective job description, I feel it would equally massively reduce your chances to actually prove your worth)

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I would but this is the inter-web.

And it proves how you're not realizing what an AH is. And what a SQL database is. And why the web can make shopping portal site in about 2 weeks.

You take in every item ID, you tag it in the fields. You query a filter like search ex: all IDs with swords field. It displays. Done. Then you can put a fancy blue button on it. If you want to get more modern features. you can query the database for all IDs with swords field, and with "levels" numbered field 10-25. Done again.

The database is pre-made. you can find it free, pay a small amount, and even open source versions, etc, etc etc. It's all there. heck you can edit it with the query analyzer tools they provide. MS SQL 200x is a very popular one in the business world.

Some people...geez

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

I would but this is the inter-web.

And it proves how you're not realizing what an AH is. And what a SQL database is. And why the web can make shopping portal site in about 2 weeks.

You take in every item ID, you tag it in the fields. You query a filter like search ex: all IDs with swords field. It displays. Done. Then you can put a fancy blue button on it.

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You fail to understand that those systems are already in place for the current market wards system, otherwise... guess what? You wouldn't be able to seach through it. They just need to build and extend upon what they already have.

An AH in the context of a MMORPG is NOT the same thing as a webcommerce site. It needs to be integrated in the (a LOT more complex) systems of the MMORPG itself, it needs to be tested in that environment, and it needs not to create glitches/conflicts in that environment/context. Which is a lot more problematic than just slapping an SQL database in the face of the web.

Of course it's not rocket science. But even things that aren't rocket science require plenty development AND QA (people always forget that systems need also to be tested, not just implemented, even more so systems that have to do with the economy) resources. And since they have a system already in place, saving development resources when they can and need to be used elsewhere is the only logical course of action.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You fail to understand that those systems are already in place for the current market wards system, otherwise... guess what? You wouldn't be able to seach through it. They just need to build and extend upon what they already have.

An AH in the context of a MMORPG is NOT the same thing as a webcommerce site. It needs to be integrated in the (a LOT more complex) systems of the MMORPG itself, it needs to be tested in that environment, and it needs not to create glitches/conflicts in that environment/context. Which is a lot more problematic than just slapping an SQL database in the face of the web.

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Actually not really... no real glitch as AH is just a database. You're just basically toggling "sell" and "buy" field, and send it off to back end system. It's really very very easy.

All the back end system has to do is toggle their field for the proper play. Nothing different from buying an item from an NPC or any other obvious implementation.

There is no retainer to track, no position to be in, no custom zone to make, nothing, nada. Market ward fail! Nada.

You're trying to argue something that is at it's core, been thoroughly matured in world of business. That's why databases are everywhere and every form. They're so simple, a Mithra can understand it, meow!

It's Microsoft Excel+1, and even a grandmother can do excel with a few lessons.

In fact go steal or read one of the source codes of MMOs out there. Look SQL backend!

You quite obviously have never worked on a MMO, or have even talked to someone working on a MMO :D

Your idea of MMO development is so oversimplified, that I wonder where you got it.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Actually not really... no real glitch as AH is just a database. You're just basically toggling "sell" and "buy" field, and send it off to back end system. It's really very very easy.

All the back end system has to do is toggle their field for the proper play. Nothing different from buying an item from an NPC or any other obvious implementation.

There is no retainer to track, no position to be in, no custom zone to make, nothing, nada. Market ward fail! Nada.

You're trying to argue something that is at it's core, been thoroughly matured in world of business. That's why databases are everywhere and every form. They're so simple, a Mithra can understand it, meow!

It's Microsoft Excel+1, and even a grandmother can do excel with a few lessons.

In fact go steal or read one of the source codes of MMOs out there. Look SQL backend!

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Sorry bud. But it's not as simple as just shoe horning it in and it magically works. Something as simple as an item being added has the potential to crash an entire server in an extreme case. Anyone remember when the bugged items on peoples Bazaars and retainers would crash zones? Like I said I have seen something as simple as a bugged weapon crash an entire server. Building a system from the ground up takes months to implement and then months more to perfect and get features added.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You quite obviously have never worked on a MMO, or have even talked to someone working on a MMO :D

Your idea of MMO development is so oversimplified, that I wonder where you got it.

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Yea...that's your last defensive argument...

How about taking a look at all the private server MMOs out there. YOu can see what it's like yourself..but then you might not like the fact it's less high tech then you think in terms of item ID manipulation.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

Sorry bud. But it's not as simple as just shoe horning it in and it magically works. Something as simple as an item being added has the potential to crash an entire server in an extreme case. Anyone remember when the bugged items on peoples Bazaars and retainers would crash zones? Like I said I have seen something as simple as a bugged weapon crash an entire server.

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Actually Bazaars are harder to implement then an AH. It's actually connected to a player that has to be track.

An AH is...just there. Look up, toggle, lookup toggle.

Stop trying to devalue AH because you want Market wards to look good.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Yea...that's your last defensive argument...

How about taking a look at all the private server MMOs out there. YOu can see what it's like yourself..but then you might not like the fact it's less high tech then you think in terms of item ID manipulation.



Actually Bazaars are harder to implement then an AH. It's actually connected to a player that has to be track.

An AH is...just there. Look up, toggle, lookup toggle.

Stop trying to devalue AH because you want Market wards to look good.

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I couldn't care less what they call it and most of the features your talking about will likely be added with the system that's currently in place. So whats your deal? It's easier to build on what is already there than it is to scrap it and start from scratch.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

I couldn't care less what they call it and most of the features your talking about will likely be added with the system that's currently in place. So whats your deal? It's easier to build on what is already there than it is to scrap it and start from scratch.

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Because it's complexity for the sake of complexity.

Why figure out a faster way to carry buckets on your head...when you can carry buckets...with you know hands. It was foolish to carry buckets on your head in the first place anyway, that's why market wards are so bad.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Yea...that's your last defensive argument...

How about taking a look at all the private server MMOs out there.

YOu can see what it's like yourself..but then you might not like the fact it's less high tech then you think in terms of item ID manipulation.

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You forgot a little detail. Those private server MMOs have been taken up when the code was already done, finished, polished and tested. You quite evidently have no idea of what it takes to get to that point.

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Actually Bazaars are harder to implement then an AH. It's actually connected to a player that has to be track.

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Actually Bazars aren't connected to players. They are connected to retainers. And retainers are just code. They aren't independent entities with an AI that may suddenly decide to rebel, you know?
A retainer is nothing else than a module of a database. The implementation is slightly different (you add the items to a retainer, and the retainer's inventory is added to the database as a whole, instead of having you adding the items to the database directly), but not THAT much different.

Every other difference is cosmetic.

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Stop trying to devalue AH because you want Market wards to look good.

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There's no need to devalue anything. The Market wards ARE an AH with a graphical interface. The only big different is that the Market Wards are already there, an AH has to be done from scratch, and the development and testing resources it would need are better used elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Because it's complexity for the sake of complexity.

Why figure out a faster way to carry buckets on your head...when you can carry buckets...with you know hands. It was foolish to carry buckets on your head in the first place anyway, that's why market wards are so bad.

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Must be why millions of people in the world carry buckets on their head? Are they all foolish?
What about those that use a yoke? all foolish? What about a truck? What a bunch of fools.

It's not complexity for the sake of complexity. The MW already include features that no AH has.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

There's no need to devalue anything. The Market wards ARE an AH with a graphical interface. The only big different is that the Market Wards are already there, an AH has to be done from scratch, and the development and testing resources it would need are better used elsewhere.

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That is sort of true...after the overhaul market wards have gotten close to AH basic functions. That still doesn't solve the problem of being inferior in every way to an AH, with extra complexity.

So would you rather spend a month every time you add a feature to market wards or bug fix it because it's crowded or collision, or any other number of problems.

Or make an AH that can be done in under a month at most.

I'll take the AH.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

That is sort of true...after the overhaul market wards have gotten close to AH basic functions. That still doesn't solve the problem of being inferior in every way to an AH, with extra complexity.

So would you rather spend a month every time you add a feature to market wards or bug fix it because it's crowded or collision, or any other number of problems.

Or make an AH that can be done in under a month at most.

I'll take the AH.

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You overstimate the complexity of the market wards over the AH by quite a lot. They are a database. The AH is a database. They are handled in slightly different ways in implementation, but the added complexity is mostly in the cosmetic aspect of the wards, which is already coded and nicely ready.

Your estimates of the times needed to add a feature to the market wards are completely arbitrary.
As it's completely arbitrary your estimate of the time needed to create an AH, and TEST it. It took several months in FFXI, just to bring an example, and initially it was buggy as hell.

And finally, the market wards allow featrures that an AH does not have. In an AH you can't go around and see an armor worn before purchasing it, for instance, unless you create a completely new preview interface, adding to the complexity of the AH (and then it defeats the purpose of avoiding complexity, isn't it?)

The "inferior in every way" is rather funny, because there's not even one feature of an AH that cannot be implemented in the market wards system as it is now.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

That is sort of true...after the overhaul market wards have gotten close to AH basic functions. That still doesn't solve the problem of being inferior in every way to an AH, with extra complexity.

So would you rather spend a month every time you add a feature to market wards or bug fix it because it's crowded or collision, or any other number of problems.

Or make an AH that can be done in under a month at most.

I'll take the AH.

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Even with an AH it would take that long to implement a new function. Once it get's to the point where you walk up to an NPC behind a counter placed just outside the market wards and maybe 2 or 3 other places around the cities where you can buy/sell all from that NPC it'll all be good and the same as having an AH. It'll get there. Why do you ask? Because that is what we all want!

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Or make an AH that can be done in under a month at most.

I'll take the AH.

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LOL!!! Under a month!! Funniest thing I've heard all day

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Originally Posted by Naylia

LOL!!! Under a month!! Funniest thing I've heard all day

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I told him to send in a resume to SE. Seriously, if he can do (and test) an AH in under a month, he has a bright future in the industry.

but he chickened out....

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Originally Posted by Naylia

LOL!!! Under a month!! Funniest thing I've heard all day

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Rift managed to make a public party system for their rift in their beta, in just a day, are you telling me SE cant make an AH in a month ?

Damm.......

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Originally Posted by Ostia

Rift managed to make a public party system for their rift in their beta, in just a day, are you telling me SE cant make an AH in a month ?

Damm.......

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1: public parties don't deal with the economy. Systems that deal with the economy need to be tested THROUGHLY internally, without even counting the many security checks they need to have in place.
2: You have no idea on how much that system had been in development before it was implemented.

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Originally Posted by Ostia

Rift managed to make a public party system for their rift in their beta, in just a day, are you telling me SE cant make an AH in a month ?

Damm.......

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That feature had been in the works for months prior to it being implemented in the betas. They likely first tested it in Alpha.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

Even with an AH it would take that long to implement a new function. Once it get's to the point where you walk up to an NPC behind a counter placed just outside the market wards and maybe 2 or 3 other places around the cities where you can buy/sell all from that NPC it'll all be good and the same as having an AH. It'll get there. Why do you ask? Because that is what we all want!

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Adding a function in a classical AH..say you want to add a reputation feature to it. Guess what, you add a reputation field in SQL, and you edit your filter code to if/or reputation field. Done. Maybe an hour...a day if you need to make better graphics like stars icon.

Geez..it's like people are stuck in the 80s. Seriously... I thought with so many people using Excel, they'll at least know what a modern database is.

Here's a simple Excel microcosm of querying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgb_r...eature=related

2minutes not including data input. SQL is just more powerful and robust.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Adding a function in a classical AH..say you want to add a reputation feature to it. Guess what, you add a reputation field in SQL, and you edit your filter code to if/or reputation field. Done. Maybe an hour...a day if you need to make better graphics like stars icon.

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You forgot that lovely little thing called testing, without which new MMORPG implementations tend to go horribly wrong.

Mind you, development-wise, adding the same feature for the market wards wouldn't probably take a minute more.

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Originally Posted by Solfleur

I see from reading these forums that SE has succeeded beautifully in frustrating many loyal FF players with the Market Wards vs AH system. While I am sure the current system must be easier to maintain (WHEN it's maintained) I think it should be a far higher priority for them to be addressing this issue rather than class names. Until we have an effective and player friendly sell/sell-back system, FFXIV and thereby SE is going to hemorrhage players, players long dedicated to the FF brand. I had hoped under new management site maintenance and improvements would be a higher priority. Wasn't that what we were promised?

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The wards only need a few more adjustments before they are far better then anything the FFXI AH ever was... If they do bring in an AH it should be a true auction system, not something that you walk up and buy what you need when you need it...

I think if the Wards let you search by item categories, rather then wards, it would be much easier to find the things you need, but the steps they have made already makes it so much easier, and it will only get better. :)

They should just give us basicly what an auction house is how ever they want to call it. I system were you can buy and sell from 1 menue and not deal with constant zoning and loading. People who complain it stops rmts or other srupid make no sence because no matter the system rmts will figure out how to manipulate it to make there money of in game currancy or what ever ells they offer.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You forgot that lovely little thing called testing, without which new MMORPG implementations tend to go horribly wrong.

Mind you, development-wise, adding the same feature for the market wards wouldn't probably take a minute more.

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Probably...if they didn't have to hack market wards up so much. Still about 20 times more complex. I personally theorized they had to hack Wards to have 2 or databases because retainers database look up wasn't in the cards when they implemented. Essentially they made a fake AH database in front of the retainers, which was probably similar to players type.

As for testing... If you can test an excel program you can test a sql. That's why it's so mature. Everything already works, you're just doing "lookup".

There is very little actual code these days.

things that will radically effect the economy tend to be the most tested for bugs and exploits, and should be if nearly everything in the game is player sold.

you can always make a typo in a field somewhere.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Probably...if they didn't have to hack market wards up so much. Still about 20 times more complex. I personally theorized they had to hack Wards to have 2 or databases because retainers database look up wasn't in the cards when they implemented. Essentially they made a fake AH database in front of the retainers, which was probably similar to players type.

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Whatever they had to do. It's done. The system is in place. The databade is working. Continuing to build upon it is more efficent than creating a completely new one and having to build upon it AGAIN.

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As for testing... If you can test an excel program you can test a sql. That's why it's so mature. Everything already works, you're just doing "lookup".

There is very little actual code these days.

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Again, you're seriously underestimating the problem. But that's nothing new.

Market Wards are a giant step backwards in game design and that's the honest truth. Market Wards is simply a throw back to the lame market wards system that EQ1 deployed. Both are horrible and there is no excuse for not using a AH type system.

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Originally Posted by rubina

Market Wards are a giant step backwards in game design and that's the honest truth. Market Wards is simply a throw back to the lame market wards system that EQ1 deployed. Both are horrible and there is no excuse for not using a AH type system.

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Yep, because since a system works well in some games, it MUST be used in every game released henceforth, penalty of death!

Crap.. where's my RvR... it worked so well in DAOC... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Yep, because since a system works well in some games, it MUST be used in every game released henceforth, penalty of death!

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Actually it works very well both in MMORPGs and real life sites. Take a look at the billions of RL dollars that pass through online store fronts & auction sites. The system works and it keeps customers happy.

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Originally Posted by rubina

Actually it works very well both in MMORPGs and real life sites. Take a look at the billions of RL dollars that pass through online store fronts & auction sites. The system works and it keeps customers happy.

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So do malls and other stores.... So I guess that means both are viable options?

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Originally Posted by Xzen

So do malls and other stores....

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ZING.

10chars.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

So do malls and other stores.... So I guess that means both are viable options?

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If I could get my product in about an hour after I press buy, malls would die too.

The problem is market wards are slower then AH by order of times it takes to microwave your dinner.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

If I could get my product in about an hour after I press buy, malls would die too.

The problem is market wards are slower then AH by order of times it takes to microwave your dinner.

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More exaggeration :D

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Originally Posted by Xzen

So do malls and other stores.... So I guess that means both are viable options?

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Yeah... other stores like Borders and Barnes & Noble. Do they happen to sell newspapers? Because that would make me "lol" "irl"...

Having a 'sandbox'-type economy is a good idea on paper, but after it is implemented people will then start to gather towards a central economic hub (i.e. the zone with the best things going for it... in this case, Uld'ah). This usually happens anyway later down the road due to new content and zones. But, the problem with the Retainer system is that you can't access the game economy if people are not selling in your city, which inevitably leads to the evacuation of pretty much everything that isn't the 'Economic Hub'. Did I mention all this content just got figuratively thrown away? :(

Also, imagine what this would be like for new players now coming into the game... if their town (i.e. Gridania) has no one playing in it, they wouldn't have an economy to buy from, and they also might think that not so many players play the game. Etc.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

So do malls and other stores.... So I guess that means both are viable options?

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Actually not really. Do you expect a customer from the east coast to fly to the west coast just to visit a store front at a mall?

Zing? Grow up Abriael.

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Originally Posted by Verecund

Also, imagine what this would be like for new players now coming into the game... if their town (i.e. Gridania) has no one playing in it, they wouldn't have an economy to buy from, and they also might think that not so many players play the game. Etc.

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If a town lacks people, the problem isn't the market wards, the problem is that the town lacks traffic, and that needs to be fixed. A travel route between Gridania and Limsa is long overdue.