Yoshi P addresses lag. Its time to deliever...

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I'm sorry that offering a differing point of view on the matter, and bringing logical reasoning for my point of view, is somehow trolling to you. I can't change you see it that way.

ReplicaX, where did you get the info that SE was paying Ormuco? I want to look into it a bit. I don't know much about where to find that info.

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http://www.ormuco.com/

It provides data center solutions, which companies pay to handle "solutions". The info that SE is paying is derived from the fact that traceroutes have proven that Ormuco is the company it goes through. So, SE pays Ormuco.

The issue is also derived from how Ormuco is communicating with the CDN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_delivery_network), Level-3. As in, how it is getting from the data center solution -> Level-3.

Boycott Netflix in America, and don't stream movies.

Fun Fact:

Netflix is more than 1/3 of all bandwidth consumption in the united states. All streaming media is more than half.

Well if true you should be bitching about Ormuco/Level 3 company if this is the case and yes SE should call them up and ask hey how can Ormuco fix this issue it not 100% SE fault they wouldn't know their was a problem until players with issue bring them up like know, but just point fingers at SE like it totally their fault isn't the correct response they didn't create the isp for Canada providers.

What people like remidi aren't understanding is just how difficult it is to get this sort of thing fixed. And it isn't something SE themselves can fix.

I can assure you that being a high paying customer does nothing to speed up resolution for troubles like these. I work for a multinational, billion dollar company. And we have these exact same issues.

Level3 is a pain in the backside to deal with. Yes, SE can push from their end (and I suspect they are) but it's going to take a lot of hoping and praying that Level3 actually does anything.

But no, it is not players' ISP that is at fault. It also isn't SE's servers. It's the guys in the middle. And that is why this is a very, very difficult thing to have fixed.

remidi, you are not helping by throwing around insults and trying to bully people by saying they're "white knighting." Most of the people here aren't, they're trying to educate. We all want this fixed as much as you do. But flailing and whinging isn't going to get it done.

What will? I'm not sure. Maybe if enough people provide those traceroutes to Level3 it might get something done, especially if SE's pushing from their side already (which I would highly be surprised by if they aren't).

And as someone before said; SE's not the kind of company to say anything unless they have an exact answer. That's just the Japanese way things are done.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

http://www.ormuco.com/

It provides data center solutions, which companies pay to handle "solutions". The info that SE is paying is derived from the fact that traceroutes have proven that Ormuco is the company it goes through. So, SE pays Ormuco.

The issue is also derived from how Ormuco is communicating with the CDN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_delivery_network), Level-3. As in, how it is getting from the data center solution -> Level-3.

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Thanks Clavaat!

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

After all this time honestly I can see why SE isn't saying anything and just silently working with Ormuco or possibly other alternatives. It might come down to cost even. At this point I'm just tired in general.

I know its not my ISP or me, but if I want to enjoy the game. For the time being its WTFast for now.

Really there is nothing more I can provide. SE with all the complaints knows the situation. It was their call to make the game server side dependent, the location in Montreal, and its Data Solutions Provider.

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I imagine there may even be some contractual agreement between them to keep all problems silent. It could very well just be a PR thing, and they are indeed working on the side.

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Originally Posted by Caraway

Level3 is a pain in the backside to deal with.

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Haha, I've actually heard this from a few fellow employees (completely different scenarios, but same non-responsive, not taking the blame, quick workarounds, etc)

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Originally Posted by Caraway

And as someone before said; SE's not the kind of company to say anything unless they have an exact answer. That's just the Japanese way things are done.

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That's the way almost any company handles this kind of situation, contractually speaking :)

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Originally Posted by Caraway

Level3 is a pain in the backside to deal with. Yes, SE can push from their end (and I suspect they are) but it's going to take a lot of hoping and praying that Level3 actually does anything.

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Yes they are and so is Cogent. I have personal experience dealing with both managing a Top 10 popular game server. With allotted bandwidth to handle high polling/tick rates. They both are horrible companies to deal with.

great topic

Movenent prediction is a real thing look it up. Causes minor issues with pvp fps games but there's no reason why it wouldn't be perfect for xiv.

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Originally Posted by Synra

I know a lot of people place the blame for lag on connection. However, this is still SE's fault, because they didn't compensate for it.

These are Japanese developers. They don't make a lot of online games like our western developers do etc...

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I couldn't agree more - the fact that YoshiP thinks that to play endgame in FF14 one needs to have such unrealistically high fidelity internet connection (that perhaps can only be reliably obtained in Japan) just goes to show how Japan-centric SE is in developing this mmo. I mean, double digit ping values?? Which planet is he on? If all YoshiP cares is about Japanese player base, then please, do me a favour and state so at pre-launch. At least I know I belong to the second class player base and perhaps not grumble about it - I don't grumble about free-to-play mmos having lag too because well, it's free.

Latency is a reality. Lag is a reality. Dropped data packets are a new internet phenomenon I suppose? Other mmos have circumvented these problems some way or another by minimizing its impact on endgame and somehow as paying customers for FF14, it is unreasonable for customers to expect that SE devote time to resolve this?Problems like routing etc.. are these unique problems? Are these unexpected problems? Shouldn't one have the foresight to accommodate these issues? So what if it is hard? Does that absolve them of responsibility to deliver a 'workable' product for all players and not only some?

Programming a graphically intensive game is also hard - so it is okay to deliver a slipshod end product to sell to customers?

Surgeons have a hard job too - so it is okay to occasionally kill a patient in surgery by mistake?

Having a 'hard' job is not a reason to not do it right.

It is simply a lack of foresight and experience in creating a mmo for a global community and they are just not willing to pay the price of resolving that satisfactorily now.

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Originally Posted by Shioban

#1 Most important thing : LOTS OF PEOPLE HAVE RUBBISH INTERNET CONNECTIONS.

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All this is true, except you forgot some other important steps to check on your own system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUr7k...ature=youtu.be

Adding/changing these to the appropriate numbers on your own system registry

Registry Updates:
TcpAckFrequency = 1
TCPNoDelay = 1
TcpDelAckTicks = 0

and removing energy saving measures (such as ones that can cause your network card to go to sleep)

These registry setting were what fixed my own systems 'lag' in fights like titan so I was able to complete them properly.

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Originally Posted by Deheuty

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I'll play Devil's Advocate a bit: They are using some new techniques that may change how MMOs work in the future to potentially run better. Everything is moving to server side programming in business, so why not MMOs? It's a good idea in practice, but it came with some bumps. Most connections recovered no problem from this. 0.3s delay (which almost all MMOs currently have): Why not try reducing this to 0.1s? Functionally, this worked for much of the population, but this specific issue pertains only to certain portions of its player-base. If it gets resolved, which I imagine they are working on, it will make the game run smoother for everyone again.

A lot may say "don't fix what isn't broken", but that's just technology. If you stay stagnant in tech and never try anything new, we wouldn't have some of the capabilities we currently do. The reason they wouldn't have been able to test this on a FTP model is simply that, for the time being, these new practices are cost-heavy.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

I'll play Devil's Advocate a bit: ...The reason they wouldn't have been able to test this on a FTP model is simply that, for the time being, these new practices are cost-heavy.

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Somehow your reasoning appears to me as -- some of us are paying to be 'lab rats' to try out this new technology and suffer its consequences? Sounds like a good deal...

People here can claim that they work as this and that I CAN claim i'm the president of the USA.
The fact is that this game has a lot of issues that in a PTP type of game shouldn't be happening
I play PSO2 A FTP game that is extremely action oriented and have NO LAG whatsoever(servers are in Japan)
and in FFXIV sometimes i have rubber band lag.
This is full of ....

What lag ?http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...b5a999b971.gif

Well, I've tried EVERYTHING on this list and the lag still makes high level content unplayable for me. I'm either stuck with the damage if the AoE graphic starts on me (no matter how fast I move out) or everything locks up for 1 to 3 seconds.

No other game has lag like this for me currently. In particular, "The Secret World" has very similiar fight mechanics and NO LAG.

If someone from SE just acknowledged there was a problem, I'd happily level lower classes or craft or something until it was fixed. However, they seem to just be hoping that everyone with a problem unsubscribes.

So I unsubscribed. I wonder how long I'll have before they delete my poor characters? (And sorry guys I already gave away my gil...)

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Originally Posted by Arcaloid

Yoshi P doesn't (want to) understand the real issue here. If the game can check player position against AOE on client side (like most MMORPG if not all), people will be fine even with 200-300 ping. But that will be a massive job to do.

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But this could lead to massive exploits, like miner bots being able to warp between mining points underground. >.>

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Originally Posted by Zendy

Well, I've tried EVERYTHING on this list and the lag still makes high level content unplayable for me. I'm either stuck with the damage if the AoE graphic starts on me (no matter how fast I move out) or everything locks up for 1 to 3 seconds.

No other game has lag like this for me currently. In particular, "The Secret World" has very similiar fight mechanics and NO LAG.

If someone from SE just acknowledged there was a problem, I'd happily level lower classes or craft or something until it was fixed. However, they seem to just be hoping that everyone with a problem unsubscribes.

So I unsubscribed. I wonder how long I'll have before they delete my poor characters? (And sorry guys I already gave away my gil...)

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Most of it *isn't* SE's problem or anything they can even fix.

There is, however, a documented problem involving the transition of networks in montreal, canada (Not part of SE's network). There is nothing SE can do out of its own personal realm of control. There isn't a whole lot more they are capable since not everyone is affected by the lag. If services such as those posted near the start of this thread make you connection better, it is in fact your connection (the routing to their particular servers from your ISP) and not SE.

WTFast: http://www.wtfast.com/
Battleping: http://www.battleping.com/
Pingzapper : http://pingzapper.com/

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

But this could lead to massive exploits, like miner bots being able to warp between mining points underground. >.>

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This is amusing LOL.
yes you have said it your self it will probably have a lot of hacks.

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Originally Posted by Ryios

Boycott Netflix in America, and don't stream movies.

Fun Fact:

Netflix is more than 1/3 of all bandwidth consumption in the united states. All streaming media is more than half.

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I dont Boycott Netflix as a whole. Just their streaming... because the selection is just horrible.

What people who say it's not SE fault seem to forget, Yoshida stated the reason for the servers location is because would be ideal for players from US and EU, it clearly is not the case. The game is unplayable and not enjoyable with the state it is in. What's great is they seem to ignore this and make all the mechanics hinge on 1 hit kill mechanics revolving around latency. Titan EX is just one giant middle finger to anyone who doesn't suffer from latency issues. I wouldn't hold your breath for a proper response regarding this.

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Originally Posted by Rhas

WTFast Battleping Pingzapper

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I'm not paying a $60-$100/year gamer tax, on top of what I already pay for the game and a top tier Internet connection, to maybe sometimes fix a problem I shouldn't have to fix myself.

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Originally Posted by Nomski

What people who say it's not SE fault seem to forget, Yoshida stated the reason for the servers location is because would be ideal for players from US and EU, it clearly is not the case. The game is unplayable and not enjoyable with the state it is in. What's great is they seem to ignore this and make all the mechanics hinge on 1 hit kill mechanics revolving around latency. Titan EX is just one giant middle finger to anyone who doesn't suffer from latency issues. I wouldn't hold your breath for a proper response regarding this.

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How would SE know that there would be an issue with level3 in Montreal, Canada before they launched the service there? They didn't.

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Originally Posted by Melithea

I'm not paying a $60-$100/year gamer tax, on top of what I already pay for the game and a top tier Internet connection, to maybe sometimes fix a problem I shouldn't have to fix myself.

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I do not pay for those services either. I fixed my own connection by doing what I posted at the top of page 18. It completely fixed my issue. It was my problem in the first place. for the most part I have had no lag with all but a select few services (including FFXIV) I pay for over a 50mbps connection as well so I also thought the same that it couldn't possibly be me but SE as the problem.

I was wrong. It was my computer that had the issue.

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Originally Posted by Rhas

Most of it *isn't* SE's problem or anything they can even fix.

There is, however, a documented problem involving the transition of networks in montreal, canada (Not part of SE's network). There is nothing SE can do out of its own personal realm of control.

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All I am going to say at this point is there are many ppl on this forum that had no packet loss or latency issues prior to SE changing the polling rate for positional updates on players in instances. After the polling rate change many ppl now have issues.

SE controls the polling rate of its servers. Increasing the polling rate increases the # of calculations by the server and requires more available bandwidth between the server and client.

Bandwidth isn't free for you or them. We all have to pay for it. Funny how the issues started at the same time as the polling change.

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Originally Posted by Rhas

How would SE know that there would be an issue with level3 in Montreal, Canada before they launched the service there? They didn't.

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Well they shouldn't have made statements like that then.

The entire reason I stayed around and played 1.0 was after Yoshi-p came on board and made the game playable. Because of that I continued to support the game through the entire 1.0 subscription phase even with the case of constant disconnections. To which they said we can't fix it, but in ARR that won't be the case.

If they would just come out and say "Sorry, we are trying to resolve this", I'd continue to sub. At the moment, I'm never going to make the mistake of subbing for 6 months again.

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

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I agree with that. SE even pointed out that the increase would stress the servers too much so they only made the changes to a few areas where the change was most important. Sadly this was already enough to "overload" the system for some people. The only thing SE could do would to revert those changes back to pre 2.1. But this might alienate another part of the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Miiu

SE even pointed out that the increase would stress the servers too much so they only made the changes to a few areas where the change was most important. Sadly this was already enough to "overload" the system for some people.

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It is not overloading the client system of the user and also not overloading the server. It is overloading some routers between client and servers.

Packetloss is not really what the word "loss" mean. They get not lost. They get dropped. In the most cases the packet gets dropped, because the buffer is full. Reasons for this can be to slow router CPU, more input is incoming than the output port can handle and some others.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

It is not overloading the client system of the user and also not overloading the server. It is overloading some routers between client and servers.

Packetloss is not really what the word "loss" mean. They get not lost. They get dropped. In the most cases the packet gets dropped, because the buffer is full. Reasons for this can be to slow router CPU, more input is incoming than the output port can handle and some others.

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My wording was off there. Ofc what I meant is that the whole system is having more stuff to deal with. SE's server asking for more information which puts more stress on everybody. Your client + connection, the route between you and SE's server and SE's server itself. Since not everybody has the problem of rubberbanding position lag etc. we can eliminate the game server itself as the source of the problem because it would be equally bad for everyone if that was the case.

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

Yes they are and so is Cogent. I have personal experience dealing with both managing a Top 10 popular game server. With allotted bandwidth to handle high polling/tick rates. They both are horrible companies to deal with.

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I appreciate ReplicaX and some of the other posters here who take the time to share their own tech knowledge and personal experiences about this very frustrating topic. Really, it has helped a bit. However, others muddy up the forum with general overall defensive posts for SE that in no way help anyone who IS, HAS or CONTINUES to deal with the lag problem.

Now - since we've been 'properly educated' by some other caring FFXIV ARR forum gamers -- tell me this please:

Are these two companies - Level3 and Ormuco - the ONLY ones available for SE to contract with for this substandard service? Is there a monopoly or can SE in fact do what other powerful, product-oriented companies do IF they care about their end-product customer? Can SE present a simple consequence of contractual obligation and determine they will take THEIR business elsewhere?

Or is it that they are actually completely knowledgeable about the lag issue (and they are since we have so many threads in this forum and over in Tech), and they have decided NOT to address it? There is no 'they are WORKING on it'. If they cannot give we, their customers absolutely ANY information to provide a reasonable response to our not being able to play their game regularly without undue interruption, then they are not being responsible to US.

Regardless of whether the 'problems' may well take a long time to 'fix' - we'd like to know and have a timeframe, a reasonable timeframe so we can make our gaming decisions. Of course there are all sorts of variables in the situation. And most of our players are not demanding "FIX IT NOW THIS INSTANT", though that would be the most satisfying.

What I'd like to know is whether the North American subscriber population (*although I know it happens to players elsewhere as well...) has anything to look positively about in the reasonably near-future. Are there any forth-coming actions by SE that will provide an avenue for decent FFXIV ARR gaming within the parameters that other major mmo companies provide for North American gaming customers for the majority of the time during their subscriptions. Perhaps the North American subscriber base is not monetarily worth addressing the fix. I'm fairly certain most companies about to put out a name brand product in a major consumer market do a myriad of pre-production research projects with which, technological concerns are most definitely included for the geographic area concerned.

Are there temporary, short -term tech problems when gaming in most mmo's - I'd say I have experienced that. But those types of problems are either short-lived (a week or two...) or the communication from the company is forthcoming. This includes other issues as well such as RMT - which as an aside, apparently is another thing that SE 'can't help', cannot efficiently stop. I've heard so many explanations, descriptions, conspiracy theories and discussions about the gold sellers in these game forums, ingame and in real life conversations that I'm tired of. Yes, there are particular situations unique to each mmo gaming company related to the gold selling. However, if the other PAID subscription base competing games can manage to keep it at a low level of annoyance - and THEY DO, then SE should be held to the same bar. Period.

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Originally Posted by Autymnfyres

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In regards to your point about other Data Solutions/CDNs: I don't pretend to know exactly what their contract states, however the game is only 5ish months old. If SE signed a contract with Ormuco, it is certainly longer than this, so no they cannot work with anyone else. That being said, up until this issue, neither Ormuco nor Level-3 were causing any issues. SE may be able to threaten a breach in contract case and sue them if this goes beyond a specified amount of time, but we have no way of knowing what that is (see my post about workflow conditions in tech).

As ReplicaX stated, this started occurring when SE increased the polling rate. This is what everyone wanted and, in theory, was an improvement on the system. However, bugs like this occur, as Level-3 could handle the upgrade. The only guarantee I can give you that they are working on it is money: SE would -not- want to bleed money by paying for what they are not getting out of Ormuco's communications, and thusly, Level-3's. FFXIV has pulled SE out of sheer bankruptcy into profits, and they would not squander that by losing customers because of someone else's actions. That being said, SE doesn't have a team to go out and fix a Data Solutions issue, so they have to wait for Ormuco/Level-3 to find the problem and fix it, or rollback to 0.3s polling which would anger people again.

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Originally Posted by Autymnfyres

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Are these two companies - Level3 and Ormuco - the ONLY ones available for SE to contract with for this substandard service? Is there a monopoly or can SE in fact do what other powerful, product-oriented companies do IF they care about their end-product customer? Can SE present a simple consequence of contractual obligation and determine they will take THEIR business elsewhere?

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The internet is a large system, and many of the individual pieces are very localized and expensive. In most cases there may only be one company nearby that you can work with. Much in the same way most people only have 1 cable provider to choose from in order to get a cable modem. It is very possible there is a local monopoly and they simply don't have a choice. This would mean their only recourse would be to move the servers to some other location in the world. This would be costly in both time and money.

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Originally Posted by Autymnfyres

Or is it that they are actually completely knowledgeable about the lag issue (and they are since we have so many threads in this forum and over in Tech), and they have decided NOT to address it? There is no 'they are WORKING on it'. If they cannot give we, their customers absolutely ANY information to provide a reasonable response to our not being able to play their game regularly without undue interruption, then they are not being responsible to US.

Regardless of whether the 'problems' may well take a long time to 'fix' - we'd like to know and have a timeframe, a reasonable timeframe so we can make our gaming decisions. Of course there are all sorts of variables in the situation. And most of our players are not demanding "FIX IT NOW THIS INSTANT", though that would be the most satisfying.

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It isn't likely they are ignoring it. It is more likely that SE is contractually obligated to keep this information between just themselves and the companies involved. It's a public relations issue that tends to be in these contracts. That means we won't hear anything about it, and one day it will probably just start working better.

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Originally Posted by Autymnfyres

RMT - which as an aside, apparently is another thing that SE 'can't help', cannot efficiently stop.

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On Balmung it has improved drastically over what it was near launch. One tell every 3 days isn't nearly as bad as the ten I used to get when I ported to a town.

All in all there isn't much they can probably tell us. We've seen them take the positional update and improve it to .1 so we can clearly say that we know they are aware of the problem. We just need some patience in waiting for the companies to fix their networks. SE themselves can only push those companies but so hard. In the end SE isn't the one that actually has to fix the problem, and that's going to cause unknown delays in getting it resolved.

Everyone is using traceroute, seeing a ping spike or packet loss and assuming that hop one of the Level 3 routers is responsible. But it only appears when requesting a response from that particular server. Not the SE server.

This is what I'm getting by using a simple ICMP ping test....
C:\>ping -n 30 -l 1492 199.91.189.36

Pinging 199.91.189.36 with 1492 bytes of data:
Reply from 199.91.189.36: bytes=1492 time=88ms TTL=244
Reply from 199.91.189.36: bytes=1492 time=91ms TTL=244
..........
Reply from 199.91.189.36: bytes=1492 time=89ms TTL=244

Ping statistics for 199.91.189.36:
Packets: Sent = 30, Received = 30, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 88ms, Maximum = 93ms, Average = 89ms

If the level3 hops we're impacting server response times it would show up using this test. It's not. Therefore Level3 is not responsible.

I think you people are trying to find something that isn't there.

Well in my country we paid 7 dolars per 200 mbs download and upload speed...

If they change the entire game delay to 0.1 instead of 0.3. This will reduce the lag a lot.

But they cant do this. Or their "Low quality servers will Crash and will become unstable". (Dont we all remember the horrible start this game had in the "2013" gentlemen, because server overload issues? lol)

Im using a programs for reduce the ping, i have 200 mbs of upload/download. I have all Rules in my router in order, i have a Godly Gaming PC, my ping is 45 - 49 to diabolos servers and i still lagging LOL.

They Need a better server infrastructure. I have played, FFXI,TERA, WOW, AION, Pso2... This is the only game where i lag.

As someone else mentioned, they should design all of their AOEs like this... (Also, I apologize in advanced for my poor paint skills)

http://oi60.tinypic.com/11988de.jpg

That way, you'd still be fully punished if you're lazy, but being on the move would be more forgivable than it currently is. And people with lag wouldn't get one shot when they're barely still in the AOE area.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

In regards to your point about other Data Solutions/CDNs: I don't pretend to know exactly what their contract states, however the game is only 5ish months old. If SE signed a contract with Ormuco, it is certainly longer than this, so no they cannot work with anyone else. That being said, up until this issue, neither Ormuco nor Level-3 were causing any issues. SE may be able to threaten a breach in contract case and sue them if this goes beyond a specified amount of time, but we have no way of knowing what that is (see my post about workflow conditions in tech).

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^this!

The solution is to change game mechanics, even just temporary, but its been refused from SE because content will become incredible easy!

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

As ReplicaX stated, this started occurring when SE increased the polling rate. This is what everyone wanted and, in theory, was an improvement on the system. However, bugs like this occur, as Level-3 could handle the upgrade.

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It would suck if the polling rate had to be rolled back as it has helped many players.

Also to make something clear on my previous post for folks. Changing the polling rate on the server maybe a simple command or change in code. However, its affects are no easy task to balance out the best result. Which is why SE has been monitoring server performance and likely using other collection methods.

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Originally Posted by Arcaloid

Yoshi P doesn't (want to) understand the real issue here. If the game can check player position against AOE on client side (like most MMORPG if not all), people will be fine even with 200-300 ping. But that will be a massive job to do.

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granted im not a game programmer or anything, but i think the main reason they dont enable client side checks is client side checks are easier to exploit....but thats just a guess....

ive also had the lag issue since 2.1 started, with a 50Mb down 25Mb up connection with verizon fios, pingzapper cleared it up for me. (im in the los angeles area)

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Originally Posted by warren-ragnarok

granted im not a game programmer or anything, but i think the main reason they dont enable client side checks is client side checks are easier to exploit

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This is one reason. However, I think the big reason is the push for technology to move to server-side programming in general. It works for businesses, why not MMO's? This allows for more dynamic programming, as the server handles a lot of the workload, putting less stress client-side. (i.e. more, not all, users have accessibility to this game, regardless of PC specs). In theory, this is a fantastic push forward technologically speaking, but not necessarily in practice. If they fix this bug, and retain the 0.1s polling, we would see a very clean game.

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Originally Posted by Laraul

Everyone is using traceroute, seeing a ping spike or packet loss and assuming that hop one of the Level 3 routers is responsible. But it only appears when requesting a response from that particular server. Not the SE server.

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In the last 45 days I've run 1000s of traceroutes. Using mixed sample sizes 10-1092, very relaxed 5 to 15sec per trace and all on 50 trace tests.

The end result is simple: Packet loss at the Destination, forget all of hops for a second. Packet loss at the Destination aka SE server.

Regarding Hops in all my testing the results are the same: All Verizon T1 = zero packet loss. Verizon/Level 3 Exchange hops = zero packet loss. Level 3, Ormuco, Destination = Packet Loss

That is the simplified results, my route is only 12 hops and approx 300 miles to the server. Latency avg is 50-60ms, spike difference avg is 210ms. Data is being dropped and Verizon has been harassed to high heaven on the issue by many. Their T1 Network Engineers regardless of how many tickets or another tech to review end result is the same. We contacted the Level 3 Server Team and to this day Level 3 will not update Verizon.

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, just sharing my experience.