I fear that this community will take predictable damage that can be calculated in our actions over not having to heal an evasive tank that could get 1 shot with slight error ratio...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan
SE it's time for A new Job Please. (Tank)
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01-10-2014, 12:46 AMlolirocco
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01-10-2014, 12:53 AMWaeksyn
As others have mentioned in this thread, I think the issue with lack of tanks is not the job/class but the responsibility in the party. Tanks must always be "on". They lead the entire raid, choose what gets engaged, where it is positioned, etc. It's a lot of stress. Now, couple that with immature players that rag on tanks for not doing things exactly the way that they want and to lay blame for every failure. Who needs that?
Creating another tank class won't change any of the responsibilities or stress so how do you fix the problem? You could create a job that instead of tanking directly, redirects hate and mitigation to another player. While that might be interesting, it could be a disaster in a PUG.
If you can't change the aspects that keep people away from playing tanks, maybe creating a new job that is "sexy enough" will entice people to the role. I gotta say, tank gear at certain levels is absolutely horrible (I'm looking at you darklight!). More interesting mechanics, sexy new gear exclusive to the class, etc. Maybe make the sexy new gear crafting heavy (not available in NQ from vendors or quest reward) might help fix crafting economy as well (this should apply to all new jobs). -
01-10-2014, 01:02 AMNyneAlexander
Again, I would play the hell out of a new tank class/job. I have never ever liked the "Paladin" job, in this mmo or any. Has nothing to do with how the job plays and everything to do with a personal hatred of Paladin. That eliminates half of the available tanking jobs right there. Warrior wasn't great until 2.1 and I still don't like the look of the gear, both shared gear with paladin and JSE like AF2. IMO, the viking style horns are really played out. I'm starting to come around on it.. but i'm not there yet.
Give me samurai, give me rune knight, give me a titan egi, give me anything that isn't paladin and has cool looking gear, and I'm in. -
01-10-2014, 01:09 AMAirgetThere are different ways to go about a Ninja tank. One concept could be that the tank in question is more of a "shadow" tank in the sense that they use shadow images that hold other mobs while granting the tank in question with new abilities based on how many shadow images they have produced at the point in timeQuote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan
From 1-19 they can only produce 1 shadow image, from 20-39 2 shadow images and then from 40+ 3 shadow images.
The shadow images could have different mechanics like a basic "Flashbang" which would be their AOE attention grabber.
For the most part the shadow would just act as a pet in the sense of only using auto-attack but there would be certain abilities that when used the shadow image would mimic.
The basic idea behind a Ninja tank in this sense would be one that can handle a group of mobs quicker than Warrior and Paladin. Paladin would be the tank that can handle single targets the best, Warrior's have the brute force and Ninja could be the tank that can divert or focus their attack as needed.
To keep is balanced though it could work something in the sense of 1 shadow image= 25/75 split, shadow image is 25% of power and the player is 75% and then by 3 shadow images the split is 25/25/25/25.
The idea would then be that using shadow images on a single target would unlock different abilities which would improve the dmg potency of the ninja but to be the most defensive they would disregard using their shadow images to keep their evasion at max.
An example of dmg potency through shadow images would be something like "Quad-slice" four-fold strike that when all shadows are on the same target crit rating increases and the dmg potency doubles.
The ability split for Ninja would basically be, abilities which feed off the use of shadow images and then abilities which are more effective when you aren't using shadow copies which would be the tank-focused abilities, while overtime the shadow technique acts as more of the brute force of ninja's power. -
01-10-2014, 01:15 AMJamez82
The reason people don't play tanks is because the community are ***holes to them. One mistake and tanks fault fail fail fail fail blah blah like you're so great.
Frickin pathetic the way you all justify your actions towards people. Being a jerk is being a jerk no matter what your excuse it. It's a frickin game get over it. -
01-10-2014, 01:16 AMNyneAlexanderQuote:
Originally Posted by Jamez82
Not sure what server you are on but 9/10 times its the TANK thats being the elitest jerk -
01-10-2014, 01:18 AMfurflyer
i know i might not be following the order, but I honestly think that SE should make a dual-wield rouge class with main and off hand swords. Maybe it could be a tank? I don't know. honestly, i feel as though there are alot of DPS classes, but very few Tank and healer classes. I think that they should really add more classes in general overtime.
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01-10-2014, 01:33 AMSakasa
Well people as a whole will flock to the newest class for a boon then return back to what they were doing unless it becomes the new flavor of the month. But I know people that would go sam regardless of what type it is just because its samurai. But regardless of how loved on class or job is I think overall best practice would to release them in a 3 type sets or 4 set if you want to mark range dps and melee dps different. So that instead of every person at cap leveling acn (which worked out decently well since the jobs were split but exp was still being gained) people would rotate between them. So one of each type the only issue with that though would be if the design team for battle/character design are the same team and is small unless they assign each design by sole indivduals then kicking it to testing but I imagine that would take even longer.
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01-10-2014, 01:48 AMEdwinLiWell no matter what class they will release it will always attract people like moths to the flame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakasa
1 class released through a Major Update will not attract as many people as 3 or 4 new released classes.
Even during the first month of the game not everyone started leveling Arcanist until the second month of the game but those people didn't have a interests in Arcanist nor its two jobs.
While 1 new class will still attract people it will not attract as many people because not everyone will have interests in that 1 new class which will not put as much stress on the servers as 3 or 4 new classes.
However, 3 or 4 new classes will attract more people because people may have interests in 1 or more of these 3 to 4 new classes. This option leans more towards attracting a large community because it provides different interests and options but this is only because it gives SE a chance to attract more customers since chances of at least 1 of the new classes attracting a new customer or returning customer is much higher than simply releasing 1 class.
Then there is the benefit of releasing 1, or 2 ( I say 2 because Yoshi-P did say we may get a 2nd new class before 1st expansion if we are lucky), before releasing 3 or 4 new classes in the expansion.
The one new class can serve to test out the stress the new server system can handle due to the flock of returning and new players attracted to it while removing the extra stress it will add to the servers if it was released with the 3 or 4 new classes in something like the expansion.
This way it will at least allow SE to see how much the server improved since the Arcanist Boom incident during the first month. If the server can't handle this 1 new class attraction then they will need to improve it again to prepare for the 3 to 4 new classes in the expansion. If not they can add a few improvements to handle the factor of 3 or 4 new classes being more stressing than 1 class but the improvements demand will not be high as when the servers not being capable of handling 1 new classes population boom. -
01-10-2014, 01:51 AMVanguard319
How about Samurai? It actually was a tank class in XI, despite being adapted to the DPS role. I could see it mitigating damage through parrying, and counter attacking on an evade, as well as holding hate through chained combos. I would rather see Ninja be a DPS, the whole point of a ninja is to kill silently from the shadows, not be noisy or head on like some anime ninjas I know.
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01-10-2014, 02:30 AMsilentwindfr
@EdwinLi: the stats of our class are irevellant in face of the role they are filling. Bard maybe the only class using Dex stuff, but at the same time it's still a ranged class. indeed it's a dps/support, but still a ranged class, the stats have no relatition with this... people look for find a way to justify the add of a class (dps/tank/heal) based on detail like this... but Yoshida have already said that for a class to be added it need to fill a role a need for the group.
@XanderOlivieri: the 2.2 is called maelstrom...because we will fight leviathan... and leviathan element is the water.
for the Evasion tank, if he can mitigate all the damage... it become overpowered... and some attack can't be evaded... an evade tank will have less defense the other... if he can't evade... he die.
i prefer see a true magical tank.
for the samurai, like i did say it will not be different of the warrior. it will bring nothing new to the tanking and magical attack can't be parry... making it hard for get a parry tank in the game.
anyway, if, and i say if, they add a tank... i think we need to look in direction of the Lancer, maybe the templar. -
01-10-2014, 02:32 AMJadiIn 1.0 PLD was originally a strait tank, it was also a caster job. They had a spell interruption trait, and a unique heal. MP management was actually important to PLD on 1.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by statikcat
WAR was a hybrid DPS tank mainly blood tank. They could tank well even though it didn't really mitigate damage as well as PLD, nor did it do damage like a MNK or DRG, however in fights were DPS check was important, WAR usually got preferred over PLD.
BRD was a hybrid DPS/Support and it heavily centered on casting spells and songs. It's subjobs were CNJ and THM.
I think we lost something when we changed this.. because the dynamic nature and identity of the jobs has been reduced to 4 roles. -
01-10-2014, 02:35 AMSadana
Dark Knight as a tank with Greatswords? Yes, please! :D
Big early-game Cecil (FFIV) fan here. <3 -
01-10-2014, 02:36 AMSakasaValid point wasn't thinking of it as a hardware aspect but more so as a population spread. Because xping in dungeons as well as a fate party here and there is normal on balmung so the big strain would now be on the duty server again similar to story/myth grind more so then the world as a whole. But you are right some npcs still break on balmung all the time. The population boom is not really a bad thing as it would give a boost to alot of other functions to the game but there is alot work that would go into the entire game not just new content. Adjustment to gear table, specific new weapons, and database expansion for all the new gear which will cause work across all the teams so I guess I wasnt considering how grand a venture it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
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01-10-2014, 02:45 AMMageBlack
I would love to see a caster tank. Are there any examples of this in other games that we could draw inspiration from?
the way I'd imagine it to work would be either through shields, defense buffs, or evasion buffs or a large combination of the three. Add in (element)Spikes for damage dealt back and I think it would be a fun tank class. Or something that will change damage dealt from HP to MP. I dunno.
I just want to see something new and different in this FF than other FF titles. I would like to see something along the lines of an Aetherite Mage/Knight that uses crystalline weapons and armor. Draws directly on the Aetherite as a source of strength.
Also something I would like to see is Advanced Jobs eg; Thaumaturge/Black Mage/Black Wizard but this will be for an expansion if it were to come about.
Another interesting concept I've heard was Jobs for crafting/gathering classes wherein they specialize in a particular aspect of their field, eg; Blacksmith/Bladesmith or Botanist/Lumberjack or Herbalist (hopefully the examples i gave are pretty much self explanatory.) These are but a few examples meant to spark imagination rather than rehashing the same requests for things we will most likely see anyway. -
01-10-2014, 02:47 AMNyneAlexanderJedi Shadow in SWTOR. For all the problems swtor had, I had SO MUCH FUN playing a midrange caster tank as a jedi shadow.Quote:
Originally Posted by MageBlack
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01-10-2014, 02:47 AMJadiYes, look no further than FFXIV version 1.23.. the caster tank was called PLD.Quote:
Originally Posted by MageBlack
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01-10-2014, 02:54 AMMageBlackSounds interesting, I'll have to check it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by NyneAlexander
not quite what I was getting at. Still wore heavy armor, sword and shield, high HP, high natural defense, and was otherwise a traditional tank class only with a few healing spells to help out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadi
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01-10-2014, 02:59 AMNyneAlexander
http://torwars.com/wp-content/upload...11-500x282.jpg
Light armor. There was a tank "stance" (alot like cleric stance) which gave a huge defense buff. However, most damage was mitigated by shields, and cooldowns we're based on shield boosts and evasion if i remember correctly. It was mad fun.
Also, the two other specs to this class were both DPS. One was positional burst the other was a dot spec. -
01-10-2014, 03:07 AMMageBlackFair enough, forget I said anything then. PLD is a mage tank, at least in 1.23Quote:
Originally Posted by NyneAlexander
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01-10-2014, 03:13 AMAcalaYeah this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamez82
And this. And to address some of what the OP was talking about. Its a role/balancing problem not variety thing. After adding one, for a short bit there wont be as much of a shortage but god do you really think you want every kid attracted to the shiny new class tanking? enjoy the constantly failing groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakasa
All things considered, we are probably going to get a melee caster or ranged physical dps. Mainly because the gear for these classes exist in game and only would require new weapons/quests. Just base them off guilds in game and all they have to focus on is balancing. The simplest solution is usually the correct one.
No matter what some people are saying, they want a class that can dps while "tanking" to avoid duty finder time. To imbalanced so lets move on. The rest want an evasion tank. Problem is the game doesn't really support that. Unless you can avoid essentially all the big hits, which will again make it op as hell, your going to die. So unless they were hella creative with its implementation they would have to change end game mechanics. Or more then likely just be a pld/war clone that dodges slightly more but plays the same. -
01-10-2014, 03:18 AMVinsyn
Seeing as people want SAM to be a tanking class, please don't listen to them :). I for one enjoyed being a heavy melee hitting class in XI, hybrid tank? No thanks! SAM would fit in perfectly with DRG. NIN as tanking job would be great since that's all I ever did was play SAM and NIN in XI.
Two class jobs I did ENJOY playing.
I'm a tank at heart why I leveled up WAR, but I enjoy dps, not so much as range but as melee and MNK isn't cutting it for me (why I havn't leveled it) and DRG, why would I wanna be a DRG if there's no Wyvern pet :( -
01-10-2014, 03:29 AMNeonC
Sam or Drk one of them needs to be a tank. What else is there? Rune fencer (wth is that), viking (ugh), tank job needs appealing classes otherwise even less people will play them. Yes -part- of the issue is making tanks more enjoyable, the other part is making bad ass classes that people want to play. Healers need a cool class too, but they are so pigeon holed at this point I doubt it will happen.
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01-10-2014, 03:33 AMEdwinLiI'm only say what I think is most likely possible by just what we already have in the game now.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentwindfr
As of now no one knowns what that 1 new class will be. It can be a Physical Melee, Physical Range, Magic Melee, Tank, Healer, Magic Range or two of these combined due to the class may have 2 Jobs on release.
As of now the game points more towards musketeer class when looking at all the current content they have placed in the game...
Musketeer guild is already set in Lisma since 1.0 but any other guild class have not been set up.
Musketeer NPCs and Gunblade NPCs are already in the game and Major and minor characters in the game are Musketeer class or Gunblade class.
Stat wise we need a 2nd DEX class/Job
Role wise we need more Tanks and Healers since we have 4 DD already
Damage Distance wise between Longe Range and Close range we need more Close Range Classes
Damage type wise we need 1 new Physical Damage Range Class or a Magic Damage Melee class.
Lore wise Musketeer and Gunblade class has been set into the game but Gunblade class we won't see until we can enter Garlean Empire due to the Guild being located there so it leaves only Musketeer guild being the two known Guilds that can be accessed.
DoW and DoM wise we need a new Mage class to balance the imbalance we have between the 5 DoW classes and 3 DoM classes.
Starting Class per City Wise we need another class in Lisma to balance the 3 starting classes per city in this game but this could be anything since there are some parts of Lisma still blocked off.
There is more than just 1 simple reason why each class has the possibility to be in the game but most of the reason for now stack towards musketeer so far. However, what will be released still remains unknown.
Any words said now by us members of the player base is only what we think is possible. It is not a certainty nor a 100% accurate guess. All this now is what we think.
Yes if Yoshi-P release Musketeer people who scream bloody murder because now we have 4 range distance classes and 2 melee DD classes.
Yes if Musketeer is not released people who have been waiting for this class since 1.0 will be mad.
Yes people who want a 3rd Melee DD class will be happy if they get Thief or a Red Mage class
Yes People will be mad if a 3rd melee DD class is not released.
Yes people who want another Mage class for DoM will be happy with a new Mage class released or mad if not released.
Yes people who wanted to play as scout will be mad if they don't see scout being released.
Yes people who want a Melee Mage for Red Mage will be mad if they don't see it being released
In the end there will always be people happy and mad about what new class or classes are released. -
01-10-2014, 03:46 AMArkistaI really wish you trolls would stop miss Quoting me and making it look like that's what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarzak
I didn't say I wanted a tank who could DPS. I didn't give Ninja and Viking as examples because I wanted a DPS tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkista
Someone beat me to it but When it comes to Rage Quitters its the Tank cause they act like they are Elitist. Been to dozens of different content where the Tank left First.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamez82
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01-10-2014, 03:46 AMVersiroth
Three words....
Red... Mage... Tank.
Base job Thaumaturge, secondary Conjurer. Uses black magic for threat and white magic for mitigation. -
01-10-2014, 03:49 AMMageBlackHeres a concept too. We have one class with two jobs, so far each job requires two classes. How about having a Job require more than two classes? GLA + THM + CNJ = RDM?Quote:
Originally Posted by Versiroth
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01-10-2014, 03:53 AMNyneAlexanderIs that really a bad thing tho? Lets say that only 30% of the people that flock to this new tanking job actually stick with it. We'd still have more tanks than we have currently (provided those that switch aren't already tanks.) And so what if they're bad? There are plenty of bad WAR and PLD as it is. I'm not sure how that would make much difference. If they aren't flocking to be a new bad tank, then they'll probably stay at their current job being bad heals and bad dps. There are already constantly failing groups. Adding a new tank class wouldn't change that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acala
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01-10-2014, 03:54 AMVersirothQuote:
Originally Posted by MageBlack
Well, technically, each job already gets access to two other classes other than it's primary. In the case of a Red Mage tank, it would have to have Gladiator as the second class as you simply can't tank in this game without provoke. -
01-10-2014, 03:57 AMMageBlackBut the second, secondary class is not a requirement. I was thinking make it a requirement and then it would allow for a different range of cross class abilities. Its just a thought, dont know how well it would actually work in practice or what kinds of implications it could have for future class/job development. Could be neat though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Versiroth
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01-10-2014, 03:59 AMNyneAlexander
or they could give RDM a job ability that works like provoke
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01-10-2014, 04:05 AMEdwinLiWell sounds about right since Arcanist does get a raise skill as well but it is more personal compared to the cross-skill version of CNJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by NyneAlexander
Most likely they will add a little more kick in the RDM provoke skill if it is class/Job use only like Resurrection. -
01-10-2014, 04:19 AMBoomerOU
Dunno how i feel about RDM being a tank. I'd personally hate to see all the classes discussed be tanks: RDM, SAM, NIN, DRK.
I'm hoping the second Lancer job is a templar, 30 LNC/15 GLA that uses a 1h lance + shield as a tank. -
01-10-2014, 04:38 AMDuelleFive Words: Keep us out of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Versiroth
RDM never has and never will fit the tank aesthetic. Leave it to jobs where it'll make sense, please.
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Samurai would work as a tank, but you'd have to balance it around parries, with a counter attack mechanic (you'd probably have to reduce their damage output if you went this route to prevent SAM from overwhelming PLD and WAR). If they were to be allowed to wear heavy armor like PLD and WAR you could get away with a couple of defensive cooldowns or making counter procs reduce damage taken for X seconds. If you made them wear lighter armor then you may need something along the lines of the Brewmaster's Stagger mechanic. -
01-10-2014, 04:41 AMFluttersnipe
It is certainly NOT time for a new job...
The freaking game has been out for 4 months! -
01-10-2014, 04:42 AMDhex
Gladiator -> Red Mage (Tank) Disciple of Magic*
Lv30 - Duelist's Poise: Increases enmity generated from damage; increases self-healing magic by 30%. Increases magic damage 25%. 30% of all damage taken is redirected and deducted from the available magic points. Any damage that exceeds the available magic points will be instead applied to hit points. Duration: Effect ends upon reuse.
Quest also unlocks:
Lv30 - Enfire: Spell Duration: Effect ends upon reuse or is overwritten. Deals 20 potency fire aspect magic damage with every physical attack; occasionally inflicts Burn. Burn Potency: 20 Duration: 5s
Lv30 - Enblizzard: Spell Duration: Effect ends upon reuse or is overwritten. Deals 20 potency ice aspect magic damage with every physical attack; occasionally inflicts Slow. Duration: 20s
Lv30 - Enthunder: Spell Duration: Effect ends upon reuse or is overwritten. Deals 15 potency lightning aspect magic damage with every physical attack; occasionally inflicts Paralyze. Duration: 5s
Lv35 - Warlock's Wile: Converts TP to MP. Increases auto-attack speed and Parry rate by 15%. Duration: 20s
Lv40 - Sanguine Blade: Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Additional Effect: Inflicts Bleed. Combo Action: Riot Blade Potency: 270 Bonus: Restores MP.
Lv45 - Phalanx: Occasionally blocks magic damage. Duraction: 15s
Lv50 - Chainspell: Allows two En-spells to be active simultaneously and doubles their potency. Duration: 25s
Cross Class Thaumaturge/Conjurer
Cross-Class available Abilities:
Surecast/Fire/Blizzard/Thunder (THM)
Aero/Stoneskin/Fluid Aura/Cure (CNJ)
edit: I would also have it so that despite it's base class being Gladiator -> Red Mage would lose access to Shield Swipe/Bulwark/Shield Lob and possibly Sentinel. It would retain Rampart.
Primary stats and cross-class spells would depend on the Red Mage;
Example -> Using more offensive spells (THM) and INT make it easier to hold hate and increase your damage.
Example -> Using more defensive spells (CNJ) and MND to make your self-healing stronger.
Fluid Aura/Cure/Surecast/Stoneskin + MND would be a more defensive self reliant tank but generates less hate.
Thunder/Aero/Fire/Stone + INT would be a more offensive tank that requires more attention from healers but generates more hate.
Just ideas~!
Quest line could involve meeting a famous Red Mage - a Duelist beyond compare! His/her skills with magic and dexterity with a blade lead (insert name here) to far flung lands and into the very heart of Ishgard. Now (insert name here) wishes to impart to you the necessary techniques to dominate the battlefield as never before in Eorzea.
I don't know why people would want another back-line Magic user - it just seems boring to be to expect Red Mage to be a debuff and buff mage. I know that's what it ended up being for most players who participated in FFXI but that static style of gameplay just doesn't exist in FFXIV! Even White Mages can contribute to damage and have to be very active - a DoM tank would be really fun and exciting especially if you had to think about how you manage MP and how you want allot stats/cross-class abilities to tank - not to mention the synergy it would bring with the Bard Job. -
01-10-2014, 05:14 AMVersirothRed mages use black and white magic. What else would those be useful for together if not a tank class? We already have a DPS that uses black magic and a healer that uses white. A Tank that uses both makes absolute sense. It makes much more sense than having a melee RDM DPS that is little more than a BLM with poor range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
So again, you say "Leave it to jobs where it'll make sense", but RDM as a tank really makes the only sense. -
01-10-2014, 05:52 AMXanderOlivieriUh, no. They mention Maelstrom because something is going to get a content update related to Maelstrom.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentwindfr
Leviathan is not related to Maelstrom. He was mentioned along side Maelstrom as confirmed material for the update and then the key word for the entire content update is Maelstrom. Leviathan has nothing to do with the key word itself. The Key word is Maelstrom because we're getting something new in Limsa Lominsa that is not related to Leviathan.
Well RDM fits into the role of DPS even using both Black and White Magics. I don't think it'll come from a Thaumaturge since its weapon is usually a rapier and the Thaumaturge don't use those. Arcanist are DPS yet they can use healing spells as well so RDM has a chance of being a DPS despite having access to White Magic abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Versiroth
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01-10-2014, 06:21 AMVersirothArcanist have access to both because it has two different job paths, healing and DPS. Would you bring a Summoner to Titan HM solely to heal? The point is, with a Red Mage being known for it's BM and WM, making it a job that fully incorporates both could be very interesting. A tank makes the most sense as it's the lone role that could actually make use of both in a group environment. Also, THMs already use one handed sceptor/maces with shields. Adapting that into the Red Mage tank would be simple as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri
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01-10-2014, 06:23 AMEdwinLiWell when I look at red mage I also see it more like a DPS Job rather than a tank. The design for Red Mage has mostly been the middle ground type of class due to lacking proper stat focus and commonly using medium defense armor.Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri
but with a Melee Mage class in mind there is still the posibility of the 2nd Job for this Melee Mage class to be the Tank instead of Red Mage which probably be Mystic Knight. Both Red Mage and Mystic Knight are known Rapier Weapon user Jobs in FF series but Mystic Knight has been known more for being a Job that focus on being a Anti-Magic Tank.
it could follow...
Melee Mage Class
---> 1st Job option = Red Mage (DD Role)
---> 2nd Job option = Mystic Knight (Tank Role)