So sick of prioritisation

God I hope they don't add jump...

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Allocating programmers unfamiliar with the game, the engine and the code to the project is simply not a viable option either.

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You make it sound like SE's stable of programmers are a bunch of idiots or something. They can learn if they have to.

Most of them over there are all using the same engine, anyway. That was the whole point of Crystal Tools - a unified in-house custom-made engine so that everyone is familiar with the programming, even if they are from different teams.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

You make it sound like SE's stable of programmers are a bunch of idiots or something. They can learn if they have to.

Most of them over there are all using the same engine, anyway. That was the whole point of Crystal Tools - a unified in-house custom-made engine so that everyone is familiar with the programming, even if they are from different teams.

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Yes, they can learn- does that mean the process will be any faster? Managing a bunch of ignorant programmers (not saying this in an insulting tone) will not make the process any faster- it will slow them down, if anything. Especially if the feature ends up being full of bugs, and you bet it will be. it's not just about being familiar with the engine or the code either- the people need to work together efficiently, and the existing team, top management aside perhaps, can work with each other better than some random-san's from the 5 floors below can. That's more important than you'd think.

MMO is not a normal game and can't be developed like one. Even the Crystal tools is a greatly modified version of it- how much does this game remind you of versus or XIII? It's not as simple as being able to program for XIV if you worked for XIII.

It's a risky move and may end up hurting them more than helping them- not to mention it slows down their other projects.

They may have pulled some workforce from XI, though, that's reasonable considering the similarities between the two, and the fact both games are worked on in the same dev division.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Yes, they can learn- does that mean the process will be any faster? Managing a bunch of ignorant programmers (not saying this in an insulting tone) will not make the process any faster- it will slow them down, if anything. Especially if the feature ends up being full of bugs, and you bet it will be. it's not just about being familiar with the engine or the code either- the people need to work together efficiently, and the existing team, top management aside perhaps, can work with each other better than some random-san's from the 5 floors below can. That's more important than you'd think.

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Whatever the case may be, it all pretty much comes down to the fact that the development teams over at Square Enix are horribly managed and terribly unoptimized. It takes them 5 years to make a so-so game whereas other developers take 2 years to make an awesome game.

Given the vast amount of resources at SE's disposal, they should be many times more productive than they are and than they have been up until now. However, they are not. And like Wada said in his "I'm sorry we just lost 12 billion yen" report, it'll take at least 1 to 2 years to fix.


EXAMPLE - take a look at this game (First Person Shooter) that is currently in development.

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/de...-hawken/714433

Looks pretty damn sweet, huh? It's beautiful, has both great aesthetics and pretty graphics, looks to have great gameplay, and the CEO's philosophies on game balance and promoting good gameplay are pretty spot-on.

Guess how many people are on the dev team?

6 employees and 3 interns.


Step up your game, Square Enix!

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

I am so sick of prioritisation. Or prioritization* if you are that way inclined.

What is this? An intellectual recession or something? Aren't we even allowed to want things anymore?

Everytime someone asks for something, regardless of how basic and standardised the concept is, apparently it cannot be done because it isn't "a priority". Funny, here was me thinking this was supposed to be a video game competing in an already saturated market.

We can't even have mounts anymore because it isn't a priority. Lol? If this was an indie company with ten staff members, I could perhaps understand where people were coming from acting like a mount is a luxury we can't afford. But this is a game produced by Square Enix.

Shouldn't basic things like mounts, jumping, network-coding, and other such features be within their capacities. It's not like any of these are novel ideas with no precedent. They are elementary features.

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Mount = You have teleports. Jump = isn't Final Fantasy. Go play something else

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Originally Posted by Procas

Mount = You have teleports. Jump = isn't Final Fantasy. Go play something else

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I'd like to say in the nicest way possible, that that is a horrible counter-argument to Vesperia's post.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Whatever the case may be, it all pretty much comes down to the fact that the development teams over at Square Enix are horribly managed and terribly unoptimized. It takes them 5 years to make a so-so game whereas other developers take 2 years to make an awesome game.

Given the vast amount of resources at SE's disposal, they should be many times more productive than they are and than they have been up until now. However, they are not. And like Wada said in his "I'm sorry we just lost 12 billion yen" report, it'll take at least 1 to 2 years to fix.

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The only relevant fact here is that they had huge trouble with developing crystal tools which caused their games to be delayed significantly. XIII-2 is xoming out in 2 years as opposed to what, 6-7 for XIII? That's what happens when the game engine you develop for actually works like it should.

XIV is in the frontline of their rehauling dev- and management process plans as well, so I have no idea what this outburst has to do with anything. Unless you want to beat a dead horse, in which case have fun.

The way Vesperia thinks is that he would water flowers over pushing the button to stop a Meltdown.......

Most of the people complaining and bitching like Vesperia does, have no clue what it takes to make an MMORPG, and what it takes to fix something that is already released, compared to fixing it or adding it before release.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

The only relevant fact here is that they had huge trouble with developing crystal tools which caused their games to be delayed significantly. XIII-2 is xoming out in 2 years as opposed to what, 6-7 for XIII? That's what happens when the game engine you develop for actually works like it should.

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FFXIII-2 is only taking 2 years because the core programming is already finished from FXIII. They hardly have to do anything new, and they can use all the art assets that they threw out from FFXIII.

http://www.siliconera.com/2010/01/13...-fantasy-xiii/

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FF-Reunion summarized an interview (from Dengeki?) with Isamu Kamikokuryou, Final Fantasy XIII’s art director, where he talks about some of the deleted areas.

Nora, Snow’s hero squad, at one time had a secret base within Lebreau’s shop. A full space was made for Lightning’s home, which included a park. One of the game’s amusement parks also had a zoo too.

These areas were running in an unreleased build of Final Fantasy XIII, but were cut from the final version due to considerations about game balance and game volume. Kamikokuryou says there is enough lost Final Fantasy XIII content was removed to make another title.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

I have no idea what this outburst has to do with anything.

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It has to do with my disappointment that the greatness of Squaresoft has been slowly but surely degrading over time, and that the games they are creating now lack the vision and the brilliance of the games they made in the past.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

FFXIII-2 is only taking 2 years because the core programming is already finished from FXIII. They hardly have to do anything new, and they can use all the art assets that they threw out from FFXIII.

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Uh-huh. They can use some of the unused assets, that much is said in the article, the rest is you making stuff up. Unless you want to link me to a different article.

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It has to do with my disappointment that the greatness of Squaresoft has been slowly but surely degrading over time, and that the games they are creating now lack the vision and the brilliance of the games they made in the past.

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and why is it that you felt necessary to post this kind of verbal diarrhea in a thread discussing why priorization is necessary, for a game that does not operate according to SE's previous standards anymore? You also tricked me into actually responding to this bitchfest.

Sigh.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Uh-huh. They can use some of the unused assets, that much is said in the article, the rest is you making stuff up. Unless you want to link me to a different article.

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http://www.gamespot.com/ps/rpg/final...s_6026421.html

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Nomura explained that Final Fantasy X-2 was able to be released since it utilized the Final Fantasy X engine, allowing production of the game in one year at only half the usual development scale of a Final Fantasy title.

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The hard work is already done. All they need to do now is just add some additional gameplay elements, write a story, and stick in the rest of their unused assets.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

and why is it that you felt necessary to post this kind of verbal diarrhea in a thread discussing why priorization is necessary, for a game that does not operate according to SE's previous standards anymore?

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This was a discussion about the productivity of development teams, was it not?

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

http://www.gamespot.com/ps/rpg/final...s_6026421.html

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What this tells us is that X-2 used X's engine, which made them able to complete the game sooner. A new engine was made for X, which made the dev process slower. So, what's your point? This is exactly what I said before. They had trouble with the crystal tools, now that it is ready the dev process is faster.

More importantly, most developers use 3rd party engines which allows them to develop the games faster as well. They are not in the same position as SE was back then. They failed with the development of their in-house engine, and while it is evident that their game development is not as well managed as it could be, it has less to do with their recent delays (and in some cases the lack of quality) than you'd think.

I certainly hope they'll pull their shit together when developing the next generation engine (it is being developed as we speak!). They can't screw it like they did the CT.

What that article tells us is that now that crystal tools is ready, developing new games for it is faster. Yay.

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The hard work is already done. All they need to do now is just add some additional gameplay elements, write a story, and stick in the rest of their unused assets.

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I guess there's nothing hard about developing games then... considering as long as you buy rights to use a game engine for your game, the hard part is already over and the game is almost ready.

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This was a discussion about the productivity of development teams, was it not?

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Was I wrong in assuming this thread had something to do with XIV? I'm sorry if I misunderstood.

I do agree with the OP in that some of you are giving SE far too much acceptance, they are big company who should be able to do things in half (probably much less) the time a smaller dev team can.

The team who develop Tera have put SE to shame so badly I don't know where they find the motivation to get out of bed anymore.

If Wada has indeed cut their budget or refuses to add more people to the project then the game deserves to fail.

This isn't about prioritisation really its more about getting things done fast and changing peoples opinions and keeping the few fans you have interested in the game, I can tell you now that the PS3 version will not save this game in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I do agree with the OP in that some of you are giving SE far too much acceptance, they are big company who should be able to do things in half (probably much less) the time a smaller dev team can.

The team who develop Tera have put SE to shame so badly I don't know where they find the motivation to get out of bed anymore.

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TERA has a dev team of 200+ people and official financial support from the goddamn government.

If this is what you consider a "smaller dev team", dear god.

Lastly, yet more importantly, you can not find a case where a dev team has done what SE is doing in half the time- because no such case exists.

I never said Tera's team was small, it was a new paragraph :S

I simple stated that Tera's team have put FFXIV to shame. (there is no denying it)

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Lastly, yet more importantly, you can not find a case where a dev team has done what SE is doing in half the time- because no such case exists.

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You are right I would be hard pushed to find an example of a game where a previous dev team did such a bad job that the second team had to redesign fundamental parts of the fame to the extent that Yoshi-p's team have.

Even so there are developers out there that could cut through the crap 10 times faster, we all know SE are one of the slowest devs out there.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Even so there are developers out there that could cut through the crap 10 times faster, we all know SE are one of the slowest devs out there.

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All I see is that you are talking out of your ass about a subject you don't understand even after being called out on it.

No examples, no proof, and even the "proof" you will come up with is flawed and has nothing to do with the actual game development of the company in question.

At times like these I really wish I had a neogaf account. Some of the stuff you and renta say is just so out there.

All of the content XI has put Tera's to shame...it's pretty easy to say "soandso puts suchandsuch" to shame. XIV needs redesigning but XI, FMO and many, many of Square's offline games proves they're not exactly the "slowest development team out there" as with the exception of XIII, none of their games have been heavily delayed.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

as with the exception of XIII, none of their games have been heavily delayed.

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And this has nothing to do with their game development team, as opposed to their in-house engine development- which by all means was quite shitty, even if the end result ain't too bad after all.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Well complaining obviously hasn't worked, so I figured I would try flattery and motivational speaking.

You can't blame me for trying.

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So complaining didn't work (by your own admission)...so...why are you back to complaining? Does not compute.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

EXAMPLE - take a look at this game (First Person Shooter) that is currently in development.

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FPS games are the king of quick, make one during your lunch break and still have time to eat your sandwich, games and should not be compared to any other game as far as development time is concerned.

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Low priority =/= Never come.

Have you ever thought about why some things are high priority and some not?

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I also think they take in to consideration how difficult something is to implement when they prioritize ideas.

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That's hilarious! :D Hello Betelgeuzah.

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It's not.. :/

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

All of the content XI has put Tera's to shame...it's pretty easy to say "soandso puts suchandsuch" to shame. XIV needs redesigning but XI, FMO and many, many of Square's offline games proves they're not exactly the "slowest development team out there" as with the exception of XIII, none of their games have been heavily delayed.

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FFXII was massively massively dealyed, try again.

Comparing 11 to Tera is ... urgh nevermind.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Just a small aside. Dragons don't shoot energy beams in this game. Not any that I've encountered anyway.

I fought a drake the other day and it shot a bunch of sticks at me... but I guess that's even weirder!

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Thats funny tyvm needed a laugh and btw i agree with the series you had with the "SE player reps" that keep repeating the SE slogan like they are the games legal team.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

All I see is that you are talking out of your ass about a subject you don't understand even after being called out on it.

No examples, no proof, and even the "proof" you will come up with is flawed and has nothing to do with the actual game development of the company in question.

At times like these I really wish I had a neogaf account. Some of the stuff you and renta say is just so out there.

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Its PURE INSANITY :P

[Q


Who needs content or UI improvements or class tweaks when we can play hopscotch? :) I do think that most of the named features (like mail, AH (or better MWs), better LS control, etc...) are necessary (at some point). I think that core features that almost everyone uses almost all the time, should definitely come first.[/QUOTE]

not saying it doesnt need it. it need it but i do think a content, class tweaks, and stuff should be added im just saying that there not adding the little stuff like jump and crap. i and the stuff u mention about class tweak and content is being coming out soon why i didnt even say anything about it.

FFxvi may fail, it may pull the biggest comeback, who knows. I don't know programming but i do know what i like in games. I don't care what or how they prioritize things at the moment because they aren't charging me.

Yes the release of this game was one of the biggest cluster... i've seen and yes i do think they are hugely slow in their developement.

But right now, its free so they can do what ever they like and i'll sit patiently. If they start charging tomorrow that will be a different matter altogether.

Yes i paid retail for the box but i was going to do that eventually anyway.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Oh that. I was probably just doing my impersonation of everyone on this forum who just regurgitates verbatim every excuse given in producers letters with their own personal embellishment as to why it means we can't even have BASIC FEATURES.

The fact is, SE shouldn't have to prioritise on the development of basic features. This isn't a third world country. Resources cannot really be so scarce as to validate such excuses. And if so, then why are we still bothering to play an evidently abandoned game?

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No one said we aren't getting basic features. Not even the devs said those features were not coming. They are prioritized to be coming even in the editor letters. Just what the dev team thought was most important will be developed and implemented first. Jump is being assesed,

Character jump feature - Examination of the implementation of jumping(moved from Current Tasks as lower priority)
*Implementation dependent upon risk analysis

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/11012

now lets look at "mounts"(god i hate that term)

-NEW-
Mount system (name tentative) -NEW-
Examination of mount system (including chocobos) -NEW-
Establishment of details for mount system

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/11012

The new list does not have Mailboxes or LS management but I do remember some dev posts discussing it. As well the current task list from yoshi is in regards to content and changes up until and to the end of summer. So by september.
As well once they finish the primary overhaul and content additions in the letter x again yoshi states the larger list of long term goals will be revealed.

I agree with you that these features (except Jump, I don't like it) should have been in the game from the get go. But the team being led by yoshi has chosen the put content and battle/characters systems ahead of transport, item delivery, player housing, and ls management. they figured as my personal guess the content, battle, UI, progression systems were more important to fix than things like transport, item delivery, player housing, and ls management. This was their decision, and they made it knowing they will have to eventually visit it.

With out priorities on a project everyone just does their own thing and there is chaos and nothing will come together properly,this argument could be used when viewing the shortcoming of the original dev team. At least with yoshi they made a decision set it have been working on it.

So vesp in accordance to your OP yes those are considered basic features in most MMO's, people expect them. No all projects need a focus and priorities to get things done in the most efficient manner possible.

I hope you understand and contemplate what I am saying because I understand your point, its been made. However, at this time we the playerbase have a few choices.

1). continue playing and watching the evolution

2). take a break, but follow the evolution

3). give up entirely

4). Visit other games and see what they offer and deffer your playing decision until a later date.

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Originally Posted by Speeral

now lets look at "mounts"(god i hate that term)

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Why? What else would you call it?

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Why? What else would you call it?

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Something that isn't also an euphemism for intercourse?

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Why? What else would you call it?

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In ignorance I will call it either chocobo's, boats, or airships. I am keeping transport related discussions tied to those terms, And teleportation.

Honestly i just have a distaste for anything overtly wow related and mounts is one of those things that are as irritating as rectal itch. Oh and the jump function can go under there.

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Originally Posted by Speeral

In ignorance I will call it either chocobo's, boats, or airships. I am keeping transport related discussions tied to those terms, And teleportation.

Honestly i just have a distaste for anything overtly wow related and mounts is one of those things that are as irritating as rectal itch. Oh and the jump function can go under there.

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Call me racist, but I don't much care for diversity in mount-choices either. I mean, this isn't a petting zoo after all. Nor is it a children's television show from the 80s where everyone rode on the backs of mastadons and stegasauruses.

That said, how you can associate jumping with WoW is beyond me. It's best to just pretend WoW doesn't exist, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Call me racist, but I don't much care for diversity in mount-choices either. I mean, this isn't a petting zoo after all. Nor is it a children's television show from the 80s where everyone rode on the backs of mastadons and stegasauruses.

That said, how you can associate jumping with WoW is beyond me. It's best to just pretend WoW doesn't exist, in my opinion.

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I think thats were the jump feature just got way to annoying and overly pissed me off tbh. Thats where that association comes from. But its one of those meh things for me where i could careless if its in the game or not.

You know fellahs...if you really don't like what is being put into this game...or you don't like the pace at which things are taken care of...you are always free to leave...actually please do...and allow others to enjoy this game somewhat. The game has issues as it is...the guys at SE k now this...they are trying their best to deal with it...take a break...come back later when things are to your liking. I can't imagine there aren't any others MMO's or Console games out there to keep you busy until then...

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Originally Posted by LillithaFenimore

You know fellahs...if you really don't like what is being put into this game...or you don't like the pace at which things are taken care of...you are always free to leave...actually please do...and allow others to enjoy this game somewhat. The game has issues as it is...the guys at SE k now this...they are trying their best to deal with it...take a break...come back later when things are to your liking. I can't imagine there aren't any others MMO's or Console games out there to keep you busy until then...

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but i want it nowwwwww

what part of that dont you understand?

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Sorry you feel that way you are free to leave.

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^Agreed, you can go back to WoW

Um i have never complained about anything please read my post that vesp was replying to before you tell me to leave. Any critiscisms i have brought up or suggestions have always been constructive and in support of both the eventual evolution of the game and in support of development. So before you respond like that to me read what i wrote please and thank you.

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Originally Posted by LillithaFenimore

You know fellahs...if you really don't like what is being put into this game...or you don't like the pace at which things are taken care of...you are always free to leave

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This is extremely hard for some to do.

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Originally Posted by Speeral

Um i have never complained about anything please read my post that vesp was replying to before you tell me to leave. Any critiscisms i have brought up or suggestions have always been constructive and in support of both the eventual evolution of the game and in support of development. So before you respond like that to me read what i wrote please and thank you.

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I read her response as an in general thing.