Give us back the old Paladin

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Originally Posted by Alpheus

So that it can still be proc'd by another player should the boss jump and be untargetable/not wasting any MP on a clemency especially given the newer rotation being more MP heavy.

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Except the new rotation is NOT MP heavy. You do NOT need to do the 2 minute rotation with hard casting Holy Spirits and that is the only case where MP is an issue. It has been proven, both mathematically and practically that just doing the rotation, however you want, whether that is hardcasting Holy Spirit, doing the 1 minute loop with 2 divine Holy Spirits or just using everything as it comes makes virtually NO difference to damage.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Except the new rotation is NOT MP heavy. You do NOT need to do the 2 minute rotation with hard casting Holy Spirits and that is the only case where MP is an issue. It has been proven, both mathematically and practically that just doing the rotation, however you want, whether that is hardcasting Holy Spirit, doing the 1 minute loop with 2 divine Holy Spirits or just using everything as it comes makes virtually NO difference to damage.

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I can only speak to my limited experience with the new design given my limited playtime but you do make a fair point. The basis of the idea was to not have to allow for a clemency cast as your only recourse should the boss be un-targetable because I know PLD in general tries to avoid that when at all possible while still keeping old DV's interplay mechanic.

I'm perfectly fine with how it is currently as old Shake it Off personally speaking. The animation is neat and it fits just fine. Was just offering a suggestion that could allow for some that old vibe back that that one poster was missing.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

I mean when a lot of casuals struggle to correctly press 1-2-3 or 1-2 let alone make use of defensive cooldowns as a tank, does this change really affect their "playstyle"?

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Nice strawman.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

While in a vacuum, I'd say no. However, with the current landscape, yes.

Many of those same players or players with a similar mindset have demanded changes which negatively impact the enjoyment for raiders or even midcore players. Bard and Summoner have been absolutely gutted from their heydays due to casual players whining they were too complicated. Dark Knight went through several iterations due to casual players refusing to play the easier tanks in Heavensward. Machinist has been a hot mess for years when they abandoned the much beloved ammo system. All of these players were told, on this very forum even, to simply "get over it." That "the majority of players prefer the new version!"

To those players now complaining their favourite job was neutered, I say, welcome to the other side of that argument. Frustrating, isn't it?

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While I can't speak for everyone who had an opinion about rotations back then, I am assuming that you are being cheeky in how you are referring to me and my misgivings about having PLD changed, yes?

If so, you are preaching to the choir and I played an unhealthy amount of DRK and MCH during SB before they were gutted in Shadowbringers and I was not (and am still not) happy with the removal of Gauss Barrel/heat management nor am I happy with the removal of Dark Arts.
While I can't say I have any experience playing BRD or pre-EW SMN, but even if I do find EW SMN chill and fun, I'm not satisfied that previous mains saw their job deleted and replaced either.

So we're on the same side of being grumpy at SE for mucking up our jobs, maybe?

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

The rotation basically hasn't changed other than being frontloaded and Goring Blade feeling like complete ass to push now.

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We're going to have to agree to disagree on this point, I think. I never used to drop atonements outside of situations where I had to move away from the boss for a GCD or two and need to refresh goring blade.

6.2 PLD: Goring Blade Combo -> Atonement Combo -> Goring Blade Combo -> Magic Combo -> Atonement -> Repeat
6.3 PLD: Burst -> Atonement filler x2.5ish -> Repeat burst

They feel like night and day to me.

No, PLD is good this way.

As for everyone defending old Veil because of player interaction or something... Remember that Living Dead used to be the worst invuln because of that. Remember they removed pacification on WAR damage buff. No one cried for these changes, everyone was happy, so why is this different today?
It's a multiplayer game, being an MMO is no excuse to have your kit depend on someone else action.

I'm even confused by anyone who misses the dot.
Remember old PLD rotation? It was mainly alterning Goring Blade and Royal Authority, nothing more.
The physical phase is still there but without FoF. Even then, FoF isn't gone.

I feel that most comments against 6.3 PLD are more angry at change than 6.3 PLD itself.

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Originally Posted by nia_saeli

If so, you are preaching to the choir and I played an unhealthy amount of DRK and MCH during SB before they were gutted in Shadowbringers and I was not (and am still not) happy with the removal of Gauss Barrel/heat management

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Gauss Barrel? Heat management?
If you were on 2.50 GCD and there was no downtime, you wouldn't manage the heat gauge at all, you would hit 95 heat before Flamethrower. In other cases, it was just pressing heatblast once.
Gauss barrel was just activating your gauge, and manually reactivating it wasn't fun.

Compared to you, I can assure you I have played an ungodly amount of MCH. And I'm glad they're gone today.
Those were not fun or engaging, just one more button to press in order to start your rotation.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

And yet again an ability gets dumbed down because communication is too much to ask for in an MMO or because you'd loose *gasp* a GCD or whatever.
I wonder how many more abilities need to be streamlined until people realise that not that much actual game is left. It's always 'this is an inconvenience!' while I'd argue that's... just playing a game? Isn't (good) cooperation also some sort of skill expressions? Apparently not. It would also be convenient to just have only one ability on every single job called 'Resolve'. You press it and you win. Every time. Easy to balance, you always get a perfect parse and everyone is happy. lol I know that's taking things into the extreme, but honestly, looking from 1.0 to 2.0 to now that's pretty much the current trajectory.

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There's a lot of people that in this forum or reddit where they would heavily campaign against homogenization while on the very same sentence demanding homogenization guised under QoL change. And if confronted the argument is always the same, if that class can do it why can't I. Now we get Divine Veil being an instant cast just like Shake it Off instead of a delayed shield that if casted properly can net you an extra cast later on. And now what's next? Passage of arms being a bubble instead of a cone so that it can be compared to Asylum/Sacred Soil? Make Holy Shelltron and Intervention into 1 button while removing Oath Gauge and instead make it into a strict 20s cooldown so it will be following the same rules as other tanks? Make Clemency into an oGCD with 1200 heal potency that gradually restores HP with 200 potency for 15s? PLD instead of being able store 1 Holy Might now able to store 3 Holy Mights in which then can be spend in their 20s burst window the same as GNB cartridges?

It really seems like they wanted PLD to be a WAR/GNB clone, and now with the new changes that for me is still following the same ruleset as 6.2 PLD they are trying really hard to make comparisons to other tank classes.

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Originally Posted by esra01

It really seems like they wanted PLD to be a WAR/GNB clone, and now with the new changes that for me is still following the same ruleset as 6.2 PLD they are trying really hard to make comparisons to other tank classes.

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Divine Veil and Shake it off were already the exact same thing.
The trigger effect was the only different aspect.

When player complains about two thing being the same, they refer to abilities like Inner Release and Delirium, in 5.0 those abilities used to just spam the very same gauge spender 5 times in a row without anything else.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Divine Veil and Shake it off were already the exact same thing.

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And yet despite only the trigger effect being the only different aspect, Divine Veil creates a situation where a PLD can plan up to 30s ahead of the incoming raidwides to optimize the cooldown rotation in which Shake it Off are unable to do so. Mitigating raidwides that are 75s apart from each other is something that only Divine Veil can do and impossible for Shake it Off at patch 5.0 to 6.2. Despite the effect is almost the same, it creates a situation where as a PLD you want to discuss and plan ahead for Divine Veil activation which is an interesting part for PLD.

The only downside for Divine Veil is that it have a chance for it to fail and they fix that problem in 6.0 granting you self autonomy with Holy Spirit having a little bit of self healing. And it was made even more easier in 6.3 where you are 100% guaranteed to be able to proc divine veil since you are getting free Holy Spirit from every 1 2 3, but for some reason they fixed a problem that they have already fixed for the sake of homogenization so that Divine Veil can be compared to Shake it Off.

Yeah I know that there are blatant homogenization with Inner Release and Delirium at 5.0 but I think that in 6.0 SE is making good progress in making each tank classes have their own unique twist.

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Originally Posted by esra01

And yet despite only the trigger effect being the only different aspect, Divine Veil creates a situation where a PLD can plan up to 30s ahead of the incoming raidwides to optimize the cooldown rotation in which Shake it Off are unable to do so.

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I've already answered this argument but you gain much more application from 6.3 DV than 6.2 DV.
A cooldown that answers immediatly is better in all situations for every player.

You mention Holy Spirit with Divine might but I can already see many situations that would be confusing with 6.2 DV.
What if you want to hold the Divine Might for your burst window?
What if you don't want to trigger the Divine Veil but you're about to erase your Divine Might? And what about your burst window, would you delay it?

Those are questions you don't care with 6.3 DV.

I get the argument but this falls in the kisscool combo/tech you see in many video games that are very good on paper but barely used in a real situation.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I've already answered this argument but you gain much more application from 6.3 DV than 6.2 DV.
A cooldown that answers immediatly is better in all situations for every player.

You mention Holy Spirit with Divine might but I can already see many situations that would be confusing with 6.2 DV.
What if you want to hold the Divine Might for your burst window?
What if you don't want to trigger the Divine Veil but you're about to erase your Divine Might? And what about your burst window, would you delay it?

Those are questions you don't care with 6.3 DV.

I get the argument but this falls in the kisscool combo/tech you see in many video games that are very good on paper but barely used in a real situation.

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This makes no sense to me. I'll give you an example. On P8s, with old veil, you could cast during countdown, mit the first raidwide, and have it back up to mit the second raidwide; particularly if it was dog. And if you were doing the optimal rotation, it would line up beautifully with your casting phase. Meaning, you didn't even have to worry about triggering it. You can't do that anymore. So now, at least as far as raidwide mitigation is concerned, you bring less to the table. Old veil just required a bit of planning, which should always be happening anyways in endgame content. And they still could have maintained that functionality with the the offensive rotation changes. If anything, it would have been even easier to trigger veil. This whole rework has been an abject failure.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

You mention Holy Spirit with Divine might but I can already see many situations that would be confusing with 6.2 DV.
What if you want to hold the Divine Might for your burst window?
What if you don't want to trigger the Divine Veil but you're about to erase your Divine Might? And what about your burst window, would you delay it?

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Then let me try answering those 2 questions. Plus another one since that is a question asked to me by someone else

1. What if you want to hold the Divine Might for your burst window?
There are 2 dead periods where you can't proc your Divine Veil due to burst window. 1st dead period is right after your burst window which is 6 GCD long, 2nd dead period is when you want to be saving your Divine Might which is 3 ( or 4 GCD if you are running faster than 2.5 SkS ) GCD long. Those 2 dead periods are during your filler period after burst window and in between them you have a filler Divine Might. And so in the case of you wanting to use Divine Veil to mitigate any raidwide during the dead periods then you can do so during your burst or with your filler Divine Might. In both cases the dead period doesn't last any longer than 15 seconds which DV 30s shield able to cover

With the added bonus that if you preplan the usage of Divine Veil then it can be used as early as right after burst window and procced right before 2nd Royal Authority during filler. Leading to 13 - 30 seconds of DV cooldown running earlier.

2. What if you don't want to trigger the Divine Veil but you're about to erase your Divine Might? And what about your burst window, would you delay it?
This would be the situation where triggering Divine Veil right now then the 30s shield duration wouldn't last until the next raidwide. And if that's the case then you just don't press the Divine Veil button. The situation where a PLD missed the timing to proc DV and so can't proc it for the next raidwide is impossible. Since your dead period is only 15s long and DV shield lasts for 30 seconds.

And so as a PLD that have its mitigation planned out beforehand, you are able to cover any raidwide damage that comes up at any part of your rotation.

3. What if there's a repeating raidwide where you REALLY need Divine Veil 400 potency heal but can't due to the raidwide came up and lasted precisely during the dead period.
This is the part where old DV and new DV starts to have its pro and cons. For new DV, you can always have the option to fully optimize the healing part but not for old DV. But at the same time old DV have the option to optimize its cooldown that could lead into an additional usage. And both cases could save your healer a resource. An example where old DV truly shines is during P8S P2 last 3 Aionagonia, in which it can be used on first and third Aion which is impossible for all other 90s tank cooldown.