Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

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Originally Posted by Alym

One thing you bring up, though, is very important and I talk about it as much as I can: caster Raise. I've seen multiple posts on the JP side SMN thread calling for its removal with 30 or so likes each but when I or someone else post about it in NA forums it never gains traction and I've found it incredibly frustrating.

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There are also multiple posts that do not call for it's removal and if anything offer adjustment suggestions which also have several dozen likes so the hate against a Raise just isn't as strong on the JP side of things. We have some very vocal Western players against it which is fine, although I don't think the Raise has ever been a priority for the devs to look at and have opted for other ways to limit it's use (i.e. no MP regen from other players, stricter DPS checks etc).

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Originally Posted by Aile-A

■蘇生について

黒が強い理由が「蘇生がない」との事でしたが、裏を返せば召喚士と赤がここまで弱いのも「蘇生がある」からだと思います

PLLで外部サイトのお話も出ましたが、外部サイトを使うまでもなくボスの残りHPで目に見えて黒の方が削れます
（例：今回のエデン零式4層で序盤フェーズで召喚だと70%切るのが厳しいのが黒だと69%が見れる。等）

ボスの削れるHPが1%も変わるのは同ロールとして見たら差が大きすぎると感じます
もう少し開発側さんの想定している「蘇生」の価値を低く見積もり直して頂きたく思います


□蘇生が強いのは認識している。が、4.0よりは相対的に弱くなってるとは言えると思う

▽理由その1：コンテンツ側の必要DPSを上げた為に「死んではいけない」になった

デルタ編の4.0で赤が大暴れした理由は必要DPSが低かった為にゾンビ戦法が有用だったからです
（この事はデルタワールドファーストチームの方がインタビューで明言されております）



そして



このインタビューが考慮されたのかは分かりませんが、シグマ編以降の4層の必要DPSはかなり引き上げられました
天動、デルタ、シグマと緩和されて以降、初週クリアをしてきた固定でもアルファ編では遂にはDPS不足で初週クリアできなかった固定も結構耳にしました

5.05のエデン零式4層でも最後に物を言うのは火力でした
このように既にコンテンツ側でも過度な蘇生対策している以上、そこまで過剰に蘇生を強シナジー扱いしないでも良いように思えます



▽理由その2：5.0でマナシフトやリフレシュが削除された為にヒーラーが死んだ場合にルーシッドが使える状態じゃない場合はMP不足で立て直し・維持ができなくなった

5.0以降でもヒーラー以外の死者が出たら召喚や赤が起こす事により「ヒーラーの回復の手を止める事なく起こせる」「ヒーラーのMPを温存させる」という2点では有用です（但し、これはヒーラーの代わりにMPを肩代わりしているようなものでそこまで大きな評価が付くのは疑問です）
ですがヒーラーが死んでしまった場合、起こした時にルーシッドが残ってないとMPが無くて何もできない事も増えました

マナシフトやリフレシュが削除された事により、召喚や赤の蘇生も相対的に弱体してると言えると思います


□どちらに重点を置くか

・攻略中には蘇生は先を見る為に強い
・クリア目的や消化になりますと蘇生はあくまでも保険

立場によって評価がかなり変わると思いますが、今は前者に思いっきり傾き過ぎているように思います

4.0直後の赤の蘇生で大荒れしたので慎重になる気持ちも理解はできます
ですが、誰も死なずにクリアした時には完全に腐るのに、だまし討ち以上の価値に見積もられているのはちょっと過剰評価な気がします

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Originally Posted by Alym

The best solutions are to make Raise a caster role action as an oGCD with an enormously long CD, or to remove Raise from SMN and RDM. Anything else and it just serves to destroy caster balance.

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For all the casters out there.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

For all the casters out there.

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Im so for this. Rais a role ability with a long cooldown. so all three casters are actually allowed to do damage

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

Can we talk about how monk, dragoon, black mage, and, to a lesser extent, samurai are overpowered right now?

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

and, to a lesser extent, samurai are overpowered right now?

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

samurai are overpowered right now?

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

samurai ... overpowered

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LMAO.

DRG and MNK are overpowered because they do more DPS than SAM and provided raid buffs. SAM only has selfish damage, they bring nothing as utility, they aren't even close to BLM and should be doing the second most without party buffs but aren't. Just because SAM does a lot of damage doesn't mean it is overpowered, since that's the whole concept behind it. SE has just never done it correctly. SAM has NEVER been overpowered, or even close.

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Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin

the only disagreement i have being that everyomes rdps should be the same. Because anything that makes the whole group work harder, just for that class to break even... dont think thats how that should work. Its why i say rdps is deceiving.

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Indeed just breaking even is fine as a baseline, but if anything a support job should be bringing more dps than a selfish one when you use rdps as a metric. That way they also have a buffer against being a burden in non-raid content where they might be only buffing 3 people instead of 7. Unfortunately there are a lot of bitter mnks and blms from the pre-Shadowbringers era when rdps-centric compositions were the most powerful ones.

I don't think there's anything deceiving about how rdps works though, if it's easy for people to confuse with pdps that is on them. There shouldn't really be any confusion of what level of play to 'balance' rdps around either, obviously you assume buffs are being used correctly and people are playing their jobs properly. If you look at fight statistics for a fight like titan right now it should be clear as day. Due to the difficult dps check, groups are coordinating raid buffs to the extreme to get every edge they can get - so this should be making rdps jobs look particularly good relative to the more casual fights filled with worse performing teams. That the support oriented jobs are on the bottom of the rdps ranking even in this case of ideal performance, means either their buffs or personal dps aren't strong enough, or the upper tier jobs bring too much personal dps.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

LMAO.

DRG and MNK are overpowered because they do more DPS than SAM and provided raid buffs. SAM only has selfish damage, they bring nothing as utility, they aren't even close to BLM and should be doing the second most without party buffs but aren't. Just because SAM does a lot of damage doesn't mean it is overpowered, since that's the whole concept behind it. SE has just never done it correctly. SAM has NEVER been overpowered, or even close.

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I think that Sam is slightly op compared to smn, mch, nin, brd, rdm, and dnc. It's just not as overpowered as blm, drg, and mnk. If you read my post you would notice that the gap between Sam and the next highest DPS, smn, is significantly larger than the gap between smn and the lowest overall DPS, dnc.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Indeed just breaking even is fine as a baseline, but if anything a support job should be bringing more dps than a selfish one when you use rdps as a metric..

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This only works when your support values are in the 20-30% range and your own damage is in the dumpster as a result. In the dripple drop world of FF14 where Dancer's "Massive support" bonus still equates to about 2% of a raids total damage output, it doesn't work, because if every "Supporter" is doing Black mage levels of contribution, -The Black Mage is obsolete-.

DPS isn't based on difficulty, otherwise as some one else said Nin and Smn would be top. Personally, it was an error on SE's part that they need to fix with the clunk. All we can do on those jobs is sit and wait.

I'm going to guess that damage alterations will be forthcoming. They buggered several of the classes and the balance is definitely off on some off the jobs. Then we'll see where the chips fall.

Smn will probably get buffs, they've said so much. They aren't ok where they are, but it's not glaring like Nin. Smn was too high last expansion. They were higher in the initial tests, but my guess is they were afraid it was too high again so they brought it back down before early release. Rdm should be thought over too. I get the difference in damage taking abilities in consideration but rez is basically useless in savage and they know it. If you are needing rezzes, you will fail. It's a moot point.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

This only works when your support values are in the 20-30% range and your own damage is in the dumpster as a result. In the dripple drop world of FF14 where Dancer's "Massive support" bonus still equates to about 2% of a raids total damage output, it doesn't work, because if every "Supporter" is doing Black mage levels of contribution, -The Black Mage is obsolete-.

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I wouldn't be so sure about that, in Stormblood raid buffs were certainly not in the '20-30% range' of making up support jobs' total damage contributions, and the metagame was still far more healthy than it is now. Balance is something you can tune at both ends too, it doesn't have to be about tweaking support jobs solely until their buffs are way out of proportion with their personal damage. Just give them more personal damage, or you could just leave them as whatever, and nerf the personal damage of the selfish jobs directly instead.

Raiddps, by virtue of its name, is something that is tied to the performance of your raid members after all. If every support is doing 'black mage levels of contribution', that's only because there's a black mage (or samurai) in the party to synergize with them in the first place. Swap that blm for another dancer or bard and suddenly your supportive buffs are yielding far less extra dps than in the hands of a blm, so I don't think black mages would be obsolete at all.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

I wouldn't be so sure about that, in Stormblood raid buffs were certainly not in the '20-30% range' of making up support jobs' total damage contributions, and the metagame was still far more healthy than it is now. Balance is something you can tune at both ends too, it doesn't have to be about tweaking support jobs solely until their buffs are way out of proportion with their personal damage. Just give them more personal damage, or you could just leave them as whatever, and nerf the personal damage of the selfish jobs directly instead.

Raiddps, by virtue of its name, is something that is tied to the performance of your raid members after all. If every support is doing 'black mage levels of contribution', that's only because there's a black mage (or samurai) in the party to synergize with them in the first place. Swap that blm for another dancer or bard and suddenly your supportive buffs are yielding far less extra dps than in the hands of a blm, so I don't think black mages would be obsolete at all.

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Lets say Summoner brings 500 damage bonus from Devotion. If we equalize the RDPS of Summoner to Black mage (we'll use an arbitrary 15,000), then Summoner must have 14,500 Personal DPS.

We'll say Devilment and Standard Finish is 10% just to round it off. That's 1500 for your Black Mage.

That's 1450 for your Summoner.

But wait, you're saying that RDPS benefits should be -greater- than what a PDPS based job can bring. So lets just amp Devotion a bit. Lets say in a team of like minded and able individuals, RDPS from Devotion is worth 1000.

That means Black Mage is 15,000 and Summoner is 15,500.

Why bring the Black Mage?

Consider further we apply this to Machinist.

Machinist is just a PDPS class so it should just be equal to Black mage. 15,000.

Why bring the Black Mage?

Bard is job like summoner, so 14,500 + 1000.

Why bring the Black Mage and Machinist?

Ninja. 14,5000 + 1000

Why bring the Black Mage, Machinist, or Samurai?