I will take advise from people I know better than from complete strangers. It is the strangers with the back seat driving on said classes that are pushing the line. Driving and playing back mage are completely different things. One deals with safety and following the law and the other is with a game and whether or not a person is doing enough damage. They are not the same thing - you are bringing an element into the conversation that throws sands into the eyes of the discussion and has nothing to do with one or the other. Come up with a better analogy of real life to playing a black mage and then perhaps I will see your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk
Apparently trying to help is being rude
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10-20-2014, 01:37 AMApricoth
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10-20-2014, 01:40 AMDefendPopPunkFirst, it wasn't my analogy to begin with. Second, what I said still stands. You can't expect people that play games and live in the real world not to react similarly to negative feedback (whether it's because they drive slowly or whether it's telling them to reread their skills and play a different job). And why assume that it's coming from a friend? What if it was in a taxi or on a city bus? Would it be rude then to tell someone to get out of the fast lane? It would be a stranger in a situation like you described. Is the analogy working yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Apricoth
Taking advice from people you know instead of strangers? Gee, that sounds familiar. The fact is, it was a stranger saying this crap. If it was your friend, you would imagine they'd react differently. In which case, you're right. You take advice better from your friends. In real life and in a game. Not that hard to imagine.
Also, the safety issue is a moot point. Driving in the fast lane at such a slow speed could be an issue with the law and not good for safety anyway, so telling someone to go faster or get out of that lane would be helping them. I think the similarity between the two cases is that someone (a stranger) is trying to tell another person what they should or should not do, since they're seemingly unable to help themselves or see they're doing something wrong.
Look, people are going to either accept criticism or not, and how you wrap that criticism up is key. You can't just bring in the tired old "games =/= real life" bs and think it will just end any discussion. And then you backtrack and say "well you need a BETTER analogy" after you poorly critique a different analogy. -
10-20-2014, 01:42 AMRamathSorry to break it to you, but ultimately the responsibility is on you. Unless they asked, or accepted your offer, for advice, you had no right to give it. That, in and of itself, was very rude, despite your "intentions." You aren't given a free pass to speak however you like just because you had good "intentions."Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiwayari
If you don't want to be considered rude, don't be rude! In that conversation you posted, you were rude. That was the point listed on the title of your thread. That is the point you brought up. Yes, the other BLM was playing poorly, and yes, he passed up an opportunity to improve. But that wasn't the point you opened with. If you wanted to discuss people's inability to improve, then post that as your main concern.
Again, learn to communicate in written form. -
10-20-2014, 01:48 AMMoqiActually yes, it should. If you think someone's dps is more important than the person who's playing you're taking this game WAY too seriously and need a reality check. Numbers>people and I cannot even believe someone would think otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez
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10-20-2014, 01:50 AMAnapingofness
I think what set him off was your phrasing/tone, especially the "Then you should choose another job" line.
The advice was good and you certainly meant well.
However, it's easy for people to misunderstand your intent via text since we do not have audiovisual cues.
^^ Just keep that in mind when you offer advice and hopefully you shouldn't run into these frustrations. -
10-20-2014, 01:50 AMjdmkaiBecause OP is complaining about rudeness.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez
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10-20-2014, 01:51 AMBluevann
I cannot find any nicest way to say this, but I have seen much nicer ways to phrase advice than yours.
The trick to give good advice is to repeat in your head what you intend to type, and ask yourself if that wouldn't offend you, were you in their position.
Wouldn't you be offended being told to change job because you won't do something that you think is wrong (since clearly, they thought your advice was wrong. Not saying it was, but it's what they believed)? I would be offended.
Always try to be in other people's shoes before typing your advice, and you'll walk out with a happy party and lots of commendations. It worked for me last night with a healer in Haukke HM.
The rules of thumb for giving advice, a sort of unwritten etiquette if we want to call it that is:
1: Don't give unasked advice, when what the person is doing is not causing failure. You cannot really compare a slower DPS to a healer who won't cure I or a paladin who won't flash, because those latter two lead to wipes, whereas the first case does only in rare situations such as endurance-based boss fights.
2: Never, ever, ever start the advice with an imperative tone, "you must" or "you should". "You could" or "Would you try and see if that's better?" are more friendly.
3: Most importantly, at the beginning of the advice, ALWAYS ALWAYS start with "<playername>, I hope this won't offend you, but...", or "Please, don't think I'm trying to be an ass, but.." or "Not to be rude, but I think you forgot Shield Oath." etc. Putting a ">_<" in there, as a "please-don't-hurt-me-I-mean-well." gives usually a positive impression too.
(Also, psst... a little secret... "cat grin (=3)" emoticons give a very annoying and irritating tone to the sentence they're put in. They actually pay people to make studies on this kind of stuff; crazy huh?) -
10-20-2014, 02:06 AMShiwayariWhy does it not make sense? I usually don't go "Hello" in dungeons anymore because I'm lazy. The only thing before that is 2 other people talking I don't remember who anymore. Like you said his response was to that line, so I don't understand why you think it doesn't make sense. (?)Quote:
Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk
Thank you, I've felt bad enough about it not run another 20 runs to grind some vanity gear like I planned today. I get my tone might have sounded rude, but from the replies here it seems 95% of the players think this was the worst tone I could have possibly chosen, and to be honest I find this a bit sad. I don't understand why I can't bring the same point across with 4 words instead of 20. Everyone seems to actually want to try interpret what I said in a rude way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasenai
Hm, a totally agree with you, this is what I always try to do. But sometimes I tend to forgot this, I'm only human and make mistakes too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluevann
But, I think it is human nature to not want to hear something you are doing wrong. I cannot think of any way, any situation, where anyone hearing this "advice", put it as nicely as you will, will not be offended at least on the first impression. But is it not also a goal as a grown adult, fellow player, playing a game, to not take everything so seriously? What might seem rude at first impression, if it helps me be better in the end, I'd say the one giving advice has done a good deed.
The thing about emoticons is new to me.. to me they lighten up the mood of that sentence, without that emote it would seem even worse to me. It was an attempt to not sound so serious.. I guess that didn't work?
I don't agree with 1. at all. The outcome does not justify the way you do it, in my opinion. Take the example you gave, if you put that DPS in the shoes of a healer, and that would cause a wipe, then that is just as much wrong to do as a DPS as it is as a healer. One leads to a wipe, one leads to a longer run which is less noticable, if both do really bad maybe the amount of extra time needed would even be the same, i don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluevann
Basically, I would never say to anyone "You aren't doing it right, but because it doesn't have as bad of an effect as it would have on a different job, it is ok."
Also, if a person is already asking for advice, I think the need to give advice is far lower, because they already know they need to do some research. Generally, I think, really needed advice is almost never asked for. If people have to leash out at me for trying to help them, I'd rather be frustrated for a day like this and make one more player play a bit better than be one of the other 10000s of players that don't give even the slightest.. about how good or bad someone else is doing.
2. <- that much I definitely got from this case, now I just need to remember next time.
(Please note this is all thinking about the player is intentionally doing bad, I do not mind players in practice. )
... this char limit is getting on my nerves =/ -
10-20-2014, 02:07 AMApricothDefend, please reread what I initially stated. I have not back tracked to anything. Also, it was you that decided to introduce a real life element to an in-game issue brought by the OP. I was answering to the OP's commentary within the scope of the game. How people respond to criticism outside of a game I could care less as that has no bearing on this topic in my opinion. Do what you may, say what you will but no thanks to your 20mph analogy. But I will concede that people will respond as they will when it comes to criticism - however, it is that individual's responsibility to deliver the criticism in a diplomatic way and know to the personality they speak to if the said individual hopes to have that criticism well received.Quote:
Originally Posted by Apricoth
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10-20-2014, 02:10 AMEmpressCelene
LOL. "Apparently trying to help is being rude."
Oh Dear. Seeing from that chat conversation that you posted. It seems you were rude yourself even though that may not have been your "intentions"....
Perhaps you should reread what you wrote and possibly think it over on how to rephrase your "help" lines.
Your effort to post this is absolutely a waste of time.