Apparently trying to help is being rude

[Shiwayari]

Edit:
This topic is concluded as far as I'm concerned. Thanks to everyone contributing, the points have been made and I think I have made all points I can make about this, and the discussion would only loop itself if it went on further. Have a fun read, if you want.
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So I just ran Halatali HM, and noticed after a while that the Blackmage's rotation was wrong, so I tried to be helpful
and give some advice. I did not bring it up the first time I saw it, because mistakes happens, but I did after I
noticed him doing the same thing every pull. Being {Fire} {Fire} {Fire} to attain Astral Fire III instead of starting
with {Fire III}. This leads to a (roughly approximated) decrease of 30-40% of potential dps.

Because I'm not doing this the first time, and I know noone wants to wait for me standing around while typing a wall of
text explaining the BLM rotation, I simply suggested him to read his skill descriptions again. Short while after, I was
being called a dick by him and the tank. I was trying to be helpful and did not use any insulting words, nor did I be
rude to him not for doing what I suggested.

I've done this multiple times, especially when I saw wrong BLM rotations, because the cast timer is easy to see and
analyze and also because BLM is a job i play frequently.
I've had a few players actually be grateful for this, but most of the time there is either no response, after which I
simply don't persuade, or this utterly rude reaction for no reason other than "Because I'm right."

Chatlog:


I cut the first line off a bit too much, for the record, I said
"You should reread your skills <Blm's name>"

Not censored = me
Black = BLM
Blue = Tank
Green = Healer

________________________
Edit:

Um, I'm sorry, I skipped important information which lead to this misunderstanding.
This http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2510826 is what I was reading in my head, but I failed to deilver the actual advice; took a while to realize this.

Well, even more of a point, misunderstanding happen, my fault this time, no reason to insult for it.

And with that most of the rest of this post doesnt actually have anything to do with this situation.. I'll leave it in anyway, why not.

________________________


This was a case of "I play how I want" and to anyone else doing that, fine, if you want to do that, do that. But
please stay out of any content that involves playing with other players, because >knowingly< using your job
wrong is being rude to all other players in your group.
Practice is one thing, I don't care if someone is doing bad because they need practice, I simply give advice, and let
them try, or ask questions, or even disagree with my suggestions. Then we can discuss about it, or not if noone wants
to take the time to do so. This is all fine with me.

What I absolutely cannot stand however, is this stuck up, utterly rude reaction for absolutely no reason. Sorry, but if
you must be like this, you have no place in playing an MMO. I report behavior like this every time and rest
assured I also have in this case, whether or not SE does something or not.

I think I gave valid suggestions, he clearly said he does not like the rotation that utilizes the job to its fullest,
i.e. he does not have fun playing that job. So I suggested to play a different job. How is that rude?

Just because you are a DPS, and knowingly doing your job wrong "just" leads to the run taking a few minutes longer and
"noone will notice" doesn't mean everyone is ok with that.
Like I said in the chatlog, this is like a WHM spamming Cure III until MP empty and then everyone dies because the WHM
"doesnt like to use Cure I".
Or a Paladin pulling 10 mobs and only using his simple 1 2 3 Hate combo "because he doesnt like to use Flash".
Now imagine any of these 2 scenarios, I would give advice at first, and if they replied with "because I dont like to
use xyz", the only thing I call that is a troll.

Just because as DPS you playing your job purposefully wrong doesnt have the immediate effect of a wipe doesn't mean
it's right to do so. In fact, that's one form harassment. I wouldnt report you for it, but id at least tell you what I
told this BLM, you can read it in the screenshot.


Sorry, I just had to let this off, situations like that are very frustrating for me, because I'm just trying to help
and / or explain the situation. I always try to be friendly, maybe I don't always choose the perfect words, but I try
my best to not harass other players in any way. If you need to explode your anger at someone for pointing out a simple
mistake, please don't play MMO's. {Thank you.}


Edit / Progress: Okay, let me apologize to anyone I was with in that dungeon, it seems the tone I spoke in was taken the wrong way, that was not my intention. My mistake, sorry. But know that you insulting me back did not make the situation better. My "advice" I still don't think was wrong, I just failed to deliver it. I've tried to explain multiple times now in this thread. If you just want to post another "Yes you were being rude" post, I had enough of those now and get the point, thank you.
To all others contributing more to the discussion, thanks, believe it or not, this might actually help me, and maybe some others.

[Tokochan]

I think... it was the way you phrased your first line. To me personally if someone said "you should reread your skills" I'd be a little insulted.. XD
but I've noticed a lot of people don't take constructive criticism well anyway.. so he probably might have gotten defensive no matter what you said :/

[Kuroyasha]

Would've been better if you told him why he should start with f3, like how much % dps he's losing by not doing it(since it honestly is a pain to have to write out a whole rotation). Would've been even better if you pointed him here to Lodestone to see the Ultimate BLM Resource thread. Also would've been better if you didn't tell him to play another job, basically telling him he sucks and should not play the class he likes to play. Yea, you sound pretty rude in that chat and thus, he responded rudely.

Edit: I forgot about the cut out line. "You should reread your skills...." is definitely not how you want to start off an attempt of giving advice. You already made them defensive b4 even giving the main advice(the f3) u wanted to give.

[MrLeonheart]

You're technically correct that the guy wasn't starting the rotation right, but you really really need to review how you're phrasing your advice.

[SinisterIsBack]

"then you should choose another job"

you WERE being a stick...

Even the "You should reread your skills" is a douche comment...

Nobody ever taught you how to approach with tact? You could have said 100 other things not so douchy..like... "If you start with fire 3 your dps will be higher". Hell there is literally 100 different ways you could of approached it and instead you chose the stick route. You shouldn't be surprised at the outcome.

[Hulan]

It's all in the phrasing. I find commonly people will forgive you for taking a few seconds to type a well thought out critic, as long as you are gracious and make sure they understand you're only giving advice. I have advised several people on jobs that I play while on one of my other jobs (not tank though, god I'm an awful tank haha), and most have been varying degrees of thankful. You just have to be willing to take a moment to make your intentions clear. Believe it or not, wording does matter. People read as much into the way you talk as what you say. Incomplete sentences and poor spelling come across as glib and uncaring, even if the writer never intended them to seem so.

Also, I don't think they took offense at the first statement as much as your pushing the point. He didn't agree (incorrectly, but that's beside the point) and you pushed the point. You can't make someone play your way and not sound a little like a dick, if you're forgive me taking his word.

[Nana_Balthazar]

There may be a "disconnection" between what he thinks he's playing, and what you know we're playing.

He may think he's playing a RPG (since it's both labelled as a "Final Fantasy" and a "mmoRPG") in which there would be many valid ways to play.
We know it's actually not the case and all the RPG coating is just for show. There is only one way to play a job.
Thus, what you said may appear rude to him because it looked like you were trying to restrict him, when in reality it's the game that's restricting us.

The solution to this problem can only come from the developers :
- stop pretending it's a RPG to avoid misleading new players (the dev panel about battle design at the fanfest earlier was totally disconnected from the reality of the game)
- admit there is only one way to play and modify the game in accordance (like reducing number of actions) to avoid this kind of situation where players can do something not planned/wanted
- or (harder) actually make a RPG.

[SinisterIsBack]

He may think he's playing a RPG (since it's both labelled as a "Final Fantasy" and a "mmoRPG") in which there would be many valid ways to play.
We know it's actually not the case and all the RPG coating is just for show. There is only one way to play a job.
Thus, what you said may appear rude to him because it looked like you were trying to restrict him, when in reality it's the game that's restricting us.

The solution to this problem can only come from the developers :
- stop pretending it's a RPG to avoid misleading new players (the dev panel about battle design at the fanfest earlier was totally disconnected from the reality of the game)
- admit there is only one way to play and modify the game in accordance (like reducing number of actions) to avoid this kind of situation where players can do something not planned/wanted
- or (harder) actually make a RPG.

I wont go as far as saying nobody thinks they are playing an RPG....but NOBODY thinks this is an RPG. THe only disconnect I see is people not truly reading their skills and actually thinking about it. Also, the other disconnect I see is with your post... talk about WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY left field.... hell its out of the park and not even in play. /baffled

[Martin_Arcainess]

Well yeaaah, I mean, people take feed back 2 ways, good or bad. I take it good IF I think the advice is good. If someone said to be you keep better aggro via Fast Blade then Riot blade then I say, ty for the advice but your wrong. And that's when it gose to S**T I find that explaining why helps alot but also depends if the person is civil enough to hold a decent conversation with you. Sometimes it's common mistake for people to use later Spells like Fire III over Fire I because in past game Fire III is better. Lol bless her my wife did the same. Using Cure III over Cure I. She is new to MMORPG and isn't a main stream gamer.

So I think the morale of the story is, it's good to give advice deepening on how it's delivered and if it's right or not and if the other person is willing to converse about it.

[Dyvid]

"Then you should chose another job." is the point were you stop being helpful and started to be rude and condescending.