Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

Instead they went for ARR writing and EW stakes with a new WoL more or less.

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I must be part of the minority here, but I didn't think ARR writing was bad. Slow, yes, the pacing was abysmal and it dragged on at points, but it wasn't bad.

I already thought that way before Dawntrail, but Wut Lmao made me appreciate ARR all the more.

But hey, we have an easy way to troll reddit now. Just say you wanted another character to be the main focus of the plot instead of Wuk(awasteofspace) and they'll lose their minds.

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Originally Posted by Zehrylin

I went into this expansion liking Wuk Lamat. By the end of the MSQ, I keep desperately hoping she's not going to end up joining the Scions or something somehow, since she's ran rampant over everything else in this expansion so far. Sick of seeing her, sick of hearing her voice. Go away, house cat.

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Unfortunately, this ended up being me as well. I liked her in the first half the expansion..but by the second half I just wanted the story to focus on Erenville and Krile. Once I did the final trial, I was angry at how she was shoehorned into it.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

It would not be okay Ish. It would be the lowest rated and worst expansion as it is currently.

In my personal opinion, it's also cringe the way people talk about the character as though she is real. She is not. She is a poorly written character amongst many other poorly written things in DT. Maybe that's what people are trying to say in some of the rants I've seen.

I'm also not calling for anyone to stop talking. I am telling you that devs tend to interpret feedback a certain way and if what they garner from the expansion is "I hate Wuk Lamat" then we just won't see her again. The problem is, the odds you would see her again anyway are 0.005%. You can still continue to hate on a character that is not real, be my guest.

I would also note you're not even being objective. When you say "Wuk Lamat is the most inconsistent." Based on what metric? Every Scion we know acts out of character at some point and even new ones, like Bakool ja ja become unrecognizable once converted from cartoonist evil to good.

You are positing things like "if wuk lamat didn't exist, Krile's story would be well written." That is a contradiction considering this writer wrote this MSQ. They wrote Wuk Lamat. A lot of these arguments are copium.

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I have no idea why you harp so much on fictional characters not being real. It's cringe. We know they are fictional characters, written by writers. No one thinks she's a real person. People criticize fictional characters, there are entire college courses on literary criticism, there are entire academic books on various fictional characters in Shakespeare plays. Fictional characters not being real is a given.

You can like or be fine with a writers work in some areas and have specific problem areas. I like Koana and Sphene, for example. But Wuk is another story. She was written so terribly, acted by a bad voice actor, and thrown in our faces for the entire MSQ we are sending the message we don't want to see this character again, or anyone else with her archetype or approach. I don't even want them to attempt writing more of her to try to redeem how utterly irritating she was to me.

Since I feel you need someone to state the obvious, this of course is all my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I have no idea why you call it harping. It's just a fact. Wuk Lamat isn't real. She can't "single handedly ruin a story". You can phrase things that way, and many have in this thread and others, it just means I personally perceive it as hate vs criticism.

Let me use an example. People hated Lyse. Writers certainly got that feedback right? Yet they created a new character who is like 2x her presence and a polar opposite disposition. When you tell writers you hate a character, it's less effective than just saying please don't write protagonists who replace the WoL in the story. Not for half a story, a full story or at all. I am not telling anyone to stop giving feedback. I am telling you that vitriol aimed at a character probably won't get you what you want.

Another thing I would say is that it's funny you brought up the VA because of course you did.

Objectively, Wuk Lamat being "shoved in your face"-- that's a writing issue. It's not a character issue. If you don't want any character playing that kind of role in the story, it has nothing to do with Wuk Lamat.

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You mentioned 'Wuk Lamat isn't real" several times now, I recall just shaking my head as I have no idea what kind of point you think you are making with this, and commented as I saw you write this yet again. It's a pointless argument about semantics. People discuss characters, and don't need to preface every comment about a character with "the writers of the character". It's not how people discuss fiction - like I said, it's a given that a fictional character has a writer/designer behind the scenes.

Hatred of a character comes from the character's writing, design, and acting. All three are an unfortunate hurricane of terrible when it comes to Wuk Lamat - again in case it's not obvious - in my opinion. An improvement on any of the three would have helped. Here, for me, it's terrible from all directions. I mentioned the actors because FFXIV primary characters have actors, and how they perform also influences how much we like a character. I can find Graha annoying, but like how Jonathan Bailey sounds in the role, so his acting improved how much I liked the character even if the writing for him sometimes irks me. These characters in this medium don't exist in a vacuum, so "of course" I'd also mention the poor performance.

Since you aren't seeing that people's distaste of Wuk Lamat is layered and multifaceted, I'd also like to point out that people can:
1. Not want any ONE character taking over an entire expansion, whether they like the character or not,
2. Dislike everything about Wuk Lamat like I do, and
3. Find that the writers failed both in character writing and character allotment simultaneously, but due to how terrible Wuk us, the issue that she is omnipresent creates a far bigger issue in that she is so irritating, that she makes the overall experience worse than if someone liked the star of the story.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I have no idea why you call it harping. It's just a fact. Wuk Lamat isn't real. She can't "single handedly ruin a story". You can phrase things that way, and many have in this thread and others, it just means I personally perceive it as hate vs criticism.

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A character doesn't have to be real to be regarded as ruining a story. That's called the Scrappy.

Mind you I don't know if Wuk Lamat ruins the story alone because thats subjective (for me she does) but she is probably the biggest factor for those who dislike the MSQ.

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Let me use an example. People hated Lyse. Writers certainly got that feedback right? Yet they created a new character who is like 2x her presence and a polar opposite disposition. When you tell writers you hate a character, it's less effective than just saying please don't write protagonists who replace the WoL in the story. Not for half a story, a full story or at all. I am not telling anyone to stop giving feedback. I am telling you that vitriol aimed at a character probably won't get you what you want.

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We are just customers and fans. We don't need to write an essay for criticism.
The devs know that people hate a character. How they answer that is their problem. There is normaly an entire department for stuff like that.
Saying "hey Square, this character sucks and ruins the story" shouldn't be answered with "understood, here have another character that's even worse then before".
They get payed to think themself.

Also there have been entire threads about what the problems are even in this thread here itself.
If the devs don't see the reasons then they don't want to see them.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I have no idea why you call it harping. It's just a fact. Wuk Lamat isn't real. She can't "single handedly ruin a story". You can phrase things that way, and many have in this thread and others, it just means I personally perceive it as hate vs criticism.

Let me use an example. People hated Lyse. Writers certainly got that feedback right? Yet they created a new character who is like 2x her presence and a polar opposite disposition. When you tell writers you hate a character, it's less effective than just saying please don't write protagonists who replace the WoL in the story. Not for half a story, a full story or at all. I am not telling anyone to stop giving feedback. I am telling you that vitriol aimed at a character probably won't get you what you want.

Another thing I would say is that it's funny you brought up the VA because of course you did.

Objectively, Wuk Lamat being "shoved in your face"-- that's a writing issue. It's not a character issue. If you don't want any character playing that kind of role in the story, it has nothing to do with Wuk Lamat.

Also you can like part of the writing. The problem is saying "Without Wuk Lamat Kriles story would be good". You literally don't know that. You can say it, I'm just saying it's not true.

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Lol, if you think "single handedly ruin a story" is being hateful, then I can only say that I am super happy that you have had a nice time in life :D

You also seem to be hung up on semantics, when people just want to share their viewpoints and thoughts. Right or wrong, it doesn't actually matter. Remember, these are just words on a screen to you so it's not like you should worry that much.

Regardless, I hope you have a great day!~

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Originally Posted by Nanchi

I guess we should just keep throwing our money at SE and eat the crap they serve us. I'm all for constructive criticism and giving devs the benefit of the doubt, they're not superhumans after all, but story, the one thing that is universally praised about the game, taking a massive dive into the dumpster should be alarming to anyone who cares about the game.

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personally playing for the gameplay alone, the content seems to be a setp up from endwalker.
Story is hot ass tho so hopefully they improve

I love her, shes fun

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

My posts aren't really about people giving multifaceted feedback, it's moreso a reaction to this idea that one singular character ruins the story and that writing will automatically be good if she isn't around. Imo, this feedback is not only less effective but pretty harmful, because it gives the impression that if Wuk Lamat disappeared from DT, or disappears in the future, everything will automatically be ok. I've already seen people doing this with respect to the Arcadion or even within the MSQ itself when she's not around. People are welcome to submit that feedback and feel that way, but I how I feel is that there's a lot more work to be done beyond that. The writing problems with Wuk Lamat are pervasive and extend to characters we know already and love already. I don't think it has to do with any characters, including Wuk Lamat, I think it has to do with how they are used and how they are written.

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No, it wouldn't fix everything. Someone wrote this character. Someone approved of her design and extensive use in the story. Someone approved Sena's hire and ear-plug inspiring performance reaching our ears.

But the disappearance of Wuk Lamat would be a good start.

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Originally Posted by Shibi

Absolutely.

The best save SE can do now, is to do a Haurchefant on Poochie. Write in a way to kill the character off. Of course, she doesn't deserve sympathy, so I am thinking more like that M-Tribe neko with the bombs? Something comical to explode her?

I think we would cheer on that event, especially if we got a "Windup Poochie Rug" minion as a quest reward after she bit the big one.

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I think they can just keep her in Tuliyollal doing Vow things with Koana. She's Busy.

The more I think of it too, they really did try for a Zidane and Kuja idea with Wuk Lamat and Zoraal Ja, which excites the hell out of me as a IX fan. But unfortunately without the nuance that makes those two characters so popular and memorable so the comparison ended up too heavy handed and flat.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

My posts aren't really about people giving multifaceted feedback, it's moreso a reaction to this idea that one singular character ruins the story and that writing will automatically be good if she isn't around. Imo, this feedback is not only less effective but pretty harmful, because it gives the impression that if Wuk Lamat disappeared from DT, or disappears in the future, everything will automatically be ok. I've already seen people doing this with respect to the Arcadion or even within the MSQ itself when she's not around. People are welcome to submit that feedback and feel that way, but I how I feel is that there's a lot more work to be done beyond that. The writing problems with Wuk Lamat are pervasive and extend to characters we know already and love already. I don't think it has to do with any characters, including Wuk Lamat, I think it has to do with how they are used and how they are written.

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There's a few wonderful threads out there that go into the other issues, about character writing and other problems on the story. Instead of coming to complain about people complaining about a character, in a thread for complaining about the character, maybe post and give more attention to those threads instead? I agree, the problem goes much beyond Wuk Lamat. BUT Wuk Lamat IS one of the problems - not only the way she is written as a character, but how much she is there, her purpose, the consequences of her actions and what happens around her during the story. Maybe not the only problem, as the title of the post implies, but there's better ways for you to get your point across.

Saying "Wuk Lamat isn't real" isn't helping your point and also has nothing to do with what you just said.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

The critique of her smothering everything even comes from the side of those who liked the story and the content creators are also pretty loud about that and the Japanese even louder because being so personal so fast with the nickname is not liked there if a few comments are any indication.

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That bugged me even as a Westerner. I still call the person who I fled from Ul'Dah with after being accused of regicide and who joined me fighting at the end of the universe by his full name. Even after everything we've been through together. I am NOT going to just start using someone's nickname I just met.

Yeah it was too much, too fast. If it was a title thing, with 'Wuk Lamat' being the local equivalent of 'Miss Doe' and Lamat'yi being informal/first name, that'd be fine.

But it's a family nickname. We don't refer to anyone that intimately. Raha's the closest, but the man at least narratively tried to earn that intimacy, what with working over a century solo to try and help us.

They saw the Yda-shaped hole in the party and tried to fill it with Wuk Lamat. It might have worked if she gave nicknames to everyone, if she was pulled out of the spotlight for other characters to properly interact with her.

Instead Naruto learned that apparently Hypnotoad is one of his Summons.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

All I know is that given the feedback over the years, we still got DT. So, obviously there's more nuanced discussion to be had. And that is what I am pushing for. The problems here extend well beyond Wuk Lamat. Wuk Lamat is just the most obvious one because she's so persistent in the story.

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We didn‘t get DT because of feedback or despite it.
We got it because they wanted to try something new. I linked an article to that interview somewhere in one of those threads.

Wuk Lamat was the result of that.

If you want the other thing.
We did get a very spiced up fight design with DT.
That was not because people went full in detail what they wanted but because they said „the dungeons suck so much we fall asleep“.

I know where you are coming from. These more nuanced discussions are in another thread though.
This one here is on Wuk Lamat and for me she had the biggest impact on the story in a negative sense.

In my mind, Wuk Lamat is as salt. There is nothing inherently wrong with it, and it is full of potential to be a good thing. When applied in the correct, modest, amounts, salt enhances the flavor of most meals it is added to.

But if the lid comes off and the entire contents of the salt shaker are dumped all over the food in front of me, leaving every bit of it to have a crust of salt all over it, then that meal is going to taste terrible and be very unhealthy to eat. If I am then forced regardless to consume this ruined meal before I am allowed to have any dessert (yes, that is a metaphor for having to do the msq before you can unlock the rest of the content) then of course over such a bad meal experience I am going to feel some resentment to the establishment and the treatment I was given, as well as absolutely not wanting anything to do with salt for a while because I am now badly in need of a palate cleanser.

But I still would not say salt is a bad thing. Just that having far too much of it is.

I feel the same way about Wuk Lamat. I don't dislike the character. I do dislike how much Wuk Lamat there was applied to absolutely everything.

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Originally Posted by Midare

I swear, I was sighing over that too.
I'm trying to do aether current side quests, and they go "Ah you were with Poochie, weren't you?"
I'm a lalafell, literally something that is not common in Tural, and that's my claim to fame, being Poochie's accesory?

Please SE, give me the ability to punch the shins of friendly NPCs ... please.

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Actually one of the aether current quests in Urqopacha is exactly what you're asking for, it's a Giant going like "i have never seen one like you, demonstrate how such a tiny baby man is capable of laying low the valigarmanda". I'm not sure what the quest entails exactly for other races but this part is definitely Lalabro exclusive dialogue, which for the record I appreciate whenever a quest acknowledges my race or job, it's a small detail but it makes it feel more immersive and generally is just nice flavor

Though I agree it's kind of weird how many times the only thing I'm known for is being Poochie's underling, like surely I did something else of note during my adventure? Or even just having someone else I'm associated with, like you'd think for example the Pelupelu would think more of me being the guy who helped out Mablu (someone who is established and likely respected in the community) than Poochie (someone who was there for like half an hour out of obligation).
Also somewhat related trivia, 6/9 of the MSQ duties' descriptions go out of their way to specifically mention Wuk Lamat's relevance to the duty; the only ones that don't are the lv100 dungeon, lv99 trial, and lv100 trial.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

It would not be okay Ish. It would be the lowest rated and worst expansion as it is currently.

In my personal opinion, it's also cringe the way people talk about the character as though she is real. She is not. She is a poorly written character amongst many other poorly written things in DT. Maybe that's what people are trying to say in some of the rants I've seen.

I'm also not calling for anyone to stop talking. I am telling you that devs tend to interpret feedback a certain way and if what they garner from the expansion is "I hate Wuk Lamat" then we just won't see her again. The problem is, the odds you would see her again anyway are 0.005%. You can still continue to hate on a character that is not real, be my guest.

I would also note you're not even being objective. When you say "Wuk Lamat is the most inconsistent." Based on what metric? Every Scion we know acts out of character at some point and even new ones, like Bakool ja ja become unrecognizable once converted from cartoonist evil to good.

You are positing things like "if wuk lamat didn't exist, Krile's story would be well written." That is a contradiction considering this writer wrote this MSQ. They wrote Wuk Lamat. A lot of these arguments are copium.

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Okay-ish doesn't mean that it would be good. It could still be the worst expansion so far, but at least it would be better than what we got. Not having the most annoying and worst written (and with the worst VA, if you play in English) character on screen 99% of the time would definitely help in achieving that.

I don't know what makes you think that people are talking about the character as if it was a real person. Criticising her in particular doesn't mean that anyone sees her as a real person, and I don't even know what made you think that way. Maybe some people's jokes about her? Anyway, this has already been explained by other posters.

And you are not calling for anyone to stop talking, but you were saying that their criticism is "whining" and "having real life issues with the game". You're basically disregarding other people's opinions by making stuff up, instead of reading what they are actually saying.

Moreover, yes, she's the most inconsistent on this expansion. Not because of how she acts (she is who she is), but due to her several insane power increases out of the blue that make no sense just for the sake to keep making her the focus of the story (like being able to beat Bakool Ja Ja, or fight as equals with improved Zoraal Ja), up to the point of even forcing her into the last trial over Krile or G'raha, which were also there. The only other character that did anything similar was Zoraal Ja, and it was properly explained why (30 years plus alexandrian tech). And since you mentioned it, even Bakool Ja Ja's original attitude is explained, and he doesn't change all of a sudden and without thinking twice about it (hint: his mother, the only one that apparently gave him some love and didn't treat him like a tool, made him listen to find another path to end with the deaths of their children).

Lastly, nowhere did I say that if Wuk Lamat didn't exist Krile's story would be well written. I said that there would had been more time to properly develop that story, among others, which is one of the things that make the writing of the expansion this bad. I mentioned this even when I said "I'm not saying that that would had guaranteed that the story was good, but that not being there DID make the story worse." It's curious that you, being the one asking others to not criticise Wuk Lamat so much and instead focus on the writing as a whole, missed this. I think that you insist so much on your thought that people criticise the character, that you miss why we're talking about her. This is not just about her being badly written, but about the fact that she being so badly written (which is not limited to her a character, but also to how she's shoehorned everywhere) ended up affecting other parts of the story.

I don't think Wuk Lamat is a bad character, I think she's just the victim of bad writing. I feel like they had too much on their plate for this expansion, wanted to try something new, and didn't have time to do good, proper revisions. Just like how the first benchmark was in absolute shambles when it came out I imagine it was a similar situation when releasing Dawntrail, except they probably won't do anything about it now except try to improve in the future. (shrug)

Having an adult visual novel writer as one of the mains did not help matters.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

Having an adult visual novel writer as one of the mains did not help matters.

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Wait wait wait hold the phone. Is this true? Where did you hear this?

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Originally Posted by BadAtGames

Wait wait wait hold the phone. Is this true? Where did you hear this?

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https://www.imdb.com/name/nm9476812/?ref_=tt_ov_wr

Prepare to cry.

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Originally Posted by BadAtGames

I don't think Wuk Lamat is a bad character, I think she's just the victim of bad writing.

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I'm curious why you make that distinction? If it's a real person, you can say something like she was a good person being in a bad situation. But Wuk is a fictional character, the writing is her. If the wring were good, you would have a good character.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

I'm curious why you make that distinction? If it's a real person, you can say something like she was a good person being in a bad situation. But Wuk is a fictional character, the writing is her. If the wring were good, you would have a good character.

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Coz I like her lol

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm9476812/?ref_=tt_ov_wr

Prepare to cry.

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Speechless. There are so many things I want to say that I simply can't on this forum. I miss Ishikawa so bad it makes me look stupid

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm9476812/?ref_=tt_ov_wr

Prepare to cry.

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I mean, not to shame, a lot of artists make a living from smut at the start of their careers.

It's just that... What credentials compelled SE to give him the lead writer position for their biggest cash cow? I can't see how anything he wrote for FF14 before this showcased anything but risks. They really must have wrapped themselves in this positivity feedback bubble if they didn't hear or see the criticism people had for Werlyt and 6.X.

But you know, don't criticize the game! The devs must already be aware of the issues, they are already fixing them I bet, so why all this negativity? /s

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm9476812/?ref_=tt_ov_wr

Prepare to cry.

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I stared in silence a moment upon opening this. How can a game that generates this much money not deserve a bigger budget for the writing team? Someone writing a couple side quests with that resume should never have been handed the MSQ for a multi-million dollar product.

Ugh they knew DT would sell well after Endwalker's popularity, so they put the least amount of budget and effort in it. Not to mention they know plenty of fans will eat whatever slop they feed them with

Well they lost every goodwill from me after DT :mad:

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

I mean, not to shame, a lot of artists make a living from smut at the start of their careers.

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Also VN doesn't synonym to bad either. In fact, Kinoko Nasu (Fate), Ryūkishi Zero-Nana (Umineko), or even Ittetsu Narahara (Murasama) would easily give Ishikawa a run for her money. Nasu was probably the biggest name among them and he started his writing career writing doujins. But yeah, it's weird they handed the job to a writer who only wrote a rather obscured otome game. Only reason I can think of is his salary probably not too high comparing to the other heavy hitters.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

Having an adult visual novel writer as one of the mains did not help matters.

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Ok, so maybe it wasn't just me being crazy that Koana came off as a raging siscon.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Then is there a reason to give feedback at all? They can always "try something completely new". I am unsure how literally we should take that kind of statement- I think devs care a lot about feedback from the past. But we can't know that so it's pointless to debate.

As far as what the thread is for, I tend to base my thoughts on the OP and frankly, OP seems confused. They blame the expansion on Wuk but then post a bunch of discussions that seem much more comprehensive. All of my posts are kind of a long way of saying that. I think the dialogue around DT is much more complicated. I never said people can't dislike the character, I'm just giving my thoughts on certain kinds of feedback.

There is literally nothing I can say or do that will stop people from disliking Wuk Lamat or posting about her in whatever way, all I'm doing is offering my thoughts.

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No one is forbidden from posting their thoughts at least that’s my stance.

Feedback is just for that. Feedback.
The reason is that people care and have the hope that the devs will listen.

What the devs do with the feedback is their decision at the end of the day.
DT was a gamble and got backlash.
They can take the feedback to heart or they can ignore it and move on with their ideas.

There is a time and place for both approaches.
Ignoring quite a big part of the players to fulfill their ego would be stupid though and there WILL be players quitting over that if they do that and no, players quitting after years because of that is not nice, whatever or without consequences.
There are parts were devs should listen to the players playing their games and there is the opposite.
What the story is all about? Go ahead and do your thing,
How to treat the WoL and tell the story? Yeah better take the feedback to heart.

The devs have a reputation for “ wing near the players” and “caring about the story and their players”
If that is no longer their what makes that them.

Every time someone steps up to defend the writing I make a weird face and then remember how popular, loved and well regarded Twilight, the Da Vinci Code and 50 shades were by some audiences and then I see the writer's past work and it makes more sense.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Cut down because I’m on mobile.

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I don’t disagree.
Wuk Lamat has her place in parts of the story. I would disagree what parts exactly but that would be just a discussion in itself.

You are right that some parts of the story wouldn’t work without her but stuff like that is the reason for the hate.

For all scenes where she fits there are two were she is not.
This amount of centering around her or I would even call it the plot bending around her is the reason for the hate.

I actually don’t interpret this thread as being so big because she is so diverse. I personally think it’s just emotion, nothing more, nothing less.
Wuk Lamat‘s personality in a game a large part of adults play and her being extremely pushed into the spotlight to the detriment of other characters just pushes some buttons.
Those buttons just happen to be the same for quite a number of people.

I agree with you that there are certainly other problems in the story my writing. I disagree though in that I personally would give Wuk Lamat and her placing in the story the biggest fault.

I didn‘t even roll my eyes this much on Zenos and I hated him.
That’s quite an archivement in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by Nanchi

I was surprised they didn't force a romance plot at this point, was fully expecting it with her knocking on WoLs door every 5 seconds.

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It was touch and go at one point. Sitting in the cabin and she came in.

Poochie has cooties.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

It's not a direct response to what you're saying here-- I agree with what you're saying. But I do want to follow up with one more general statement about the thread and other feedback threads about DT. I don't think it's a coincidence that this thread is more persistent than all the others. You will probably interpret that as "well this character is the most divisive". I would agree with you and disagree with you at the same time. I think Wuk Lamat is certainly divisive, but I also think there's a range of motivations behind her being disliked. It's simply an exaggeration to say she's on the screen 99% of the time (she's not, not even close to that) and she's certainly not the reason certain plot elements are weak. When people casually claim this kind of thing, it's hard to take it seriously because on its face it seems willfully misleading. Wuk Lamat has some scenes that are very good, and the finale is certainly enhanced by her story and her character, namely the conflict with Sphene and its conclusion. It wouldn't be as compelling without Wuk Lamat, because WoL has no idea what its like to be the head of a nation personally, and that's what the conflict was centered around. Wuk Lamat grows out of her peace era by getting her revenge on her brother and stopping Sphene. She's forced to accept that peace is not an option. It's not the most graceful of storytelling, but we can at least say she's thematically relevant to the ending. I liked how the story pitted these two leaders against one another and I think it is evidence of some character development for Wuk Lamat. So when I see feedback that she's just constantly the worst,or has no character arc, I just don't know about all that.

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I mean she does have zero character growth and has more lines than any NPC in any of the expacs. In this expac alone she has double the lines of the next nearest characters, you're right though she's not in 99% of cutscenes, it's about 92% Which is still more than any new character. The hate for the character is completely justified, she's written poorly as are Koana and Bakool. They are hated less however, because they aren't shoved in the players face constantly, they aren't forced upon you, she is, which is why she is hated so damn much.

And to clarify I'm saying she is literally poorly written not just that I don't like her. I hate haurchefant's stupid face and hate that they keep dragging him into the story when he was a nothing burger of a character, he wasn't poorly written I just don't like him. There's a difference.

https://i.imgur.com/TFVdxlb.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BabySneed

Actually one of the aether current quests in Urqopacha is exactly what you're asking for, it's a Giant going like "i have never seen one like you, demonstrate how such a tiny baby man is capable of laying low the valigarmanda". I'm not sure what the quest entails exactly for other races but this part is definitely Lalabro exclusive dialogue, which for the record I appreciate whenever a quest acknowledges my race or job, it's a small detail but it makes it feel more immersive and generally is just nice flavor.

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Yes I noticed that and I loved it.

Not only because for a change he didn't mention Poochie, but also for that bit of special dialogue that I know it's exclusive for us since I asked my brother who plays a male au ra and told me he wasn't told that during that quest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bellybell

i WAS share the same mind, until I actually finished it anyway.
i hope you can maintain your perspective after you finished, unlike me.

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Nope still feel the same way and see it as an overreaction. The story to me still seemed better than the start of ARR.

So, a friend who doesn't frequent the forums sent me this and well, I'm sharing it with his blessing.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...eecb5b4ec1ad0&

Wuk Lamat was set to failure due lack of understanding of the writers/developers at how much players are attached to Scions and WoL.

My point with that is, that all the criticism around her writing is simply a gamble SE did that did not pay off. She is not a bad character and is very on par with other characters that we have been exposed to throughout the entirety of MSQ.
People's attachment to their personal WoL does not allow them person to be content by putting their characters on the sidelines, Wuk Lamat is meant to be the protagonist of the story, and that forces the WoL to be on the sidelines, this is by far the biggest negative some people will have due their obsession with their very own characters and being protagonists.

As for the Scions, SE is afraid to pull away the characters that already concluded their story. Either two things should've happened in DT, either the Scions follow what they said and disband and shouldn't ever be involved in any of this, giving us a whole new cast of characters to be familiarized and group with (which also would remove all the screen time from Wuk Lamat as it had to be shared with other NPCs so we build involvements with them), or keep the Scions as before and be as relevant as they used to be before. This whole situation of the Scions being on the sidelines too, put another sour taste in people's mouths as people keep seeing the characters they know simply do not act or anything, and they complain about it being a 'plot hole' or removing their characterization.

The story by itself wasn't bad at all. Nor the characters given to us. It was how it was constructed and SE did not know how to play that to the game to properly live, it needs to be disconnected from the Scions and the WoL needs to be repurposed without removing their protagonist, which is a monumental task by itself with more misses than hits to be able to take what everyone is already used to and build something new out of that foundation. It's more narrative direction and game design direction than the actual problem with how the story was written. And while it had ups and downs in the story itself, it was still quite compelling, pacing issues aside. The first half was interesting due to the world-building and introduction of characters the second half felt much more interesting presenting threats, villains, and moral debacles.

We could even say that SE acted with this expansion being a survey to know how to proceed in future expansions and give the story the big narrative tool to unwrap those future plans, but the hate towards Wuk Lamat is unjustified. The problem is very much different, from SE fear to trying things new to players being unable to adapt to the notion that our story was done in Endwalker and now they need to bring something completely new even for us.