Gender locked race?

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Originally Posted by ErysNight

First. I am jealous of you lol but yeah! I think it's slowly an undercurrent so that's why my overall point is to give this game time while keeping all factors in mind as well. I don't see them ignoring us completely as the playerbase keeps asking for these things.

Not to mention it's bad business practice for any company that wants to operate in a global market to not take into account the cultures of their customers. I just don't see SE throwing themselves into the progressive wave lol.

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SE tends to have the problem of not listening to NA/EU when they really should. It won't matter anyways because JP is just as into bun boys as we are. XD If they truly are gender locked, I imagine they are sweating bullets right now reading JP threads.

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Editing this post because I'm about to hit daily limit :

While there is a vocal minority that speaks out, there is still a lot of disappointed people. Most of the Viera lovers I know were just disappointed and are getting ready to spend their fantasia money elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by ErysNight

Logically, if you took the time to count the number of people in this thread that "care" for the number of active players in the latest player count... This thread is just the same 30 to maybe at a high estimate 100 (gonna round up even more 500) players talking about this. Most players are going to be a bit peeved but not enough to do about it. So for NA alone, you're looking at maybe less than 1% the total active player base?

That's a minority.

Also, I didn't count so hence the high estimate. I am happy to have someone count.

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Well, the OF isn't the entire playerbase though. A lot of people that play the game never even post here. I just recently joined it myself. Lots of people stick to reddit or their own discords or whatever. Trying to get an actual count of the people who care would be pretty impossible if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

SE tends to have the problem of not listening to NA/EU when they really should. It won't matter anyways because JP is just as into bun boys as we are. XD If they truly are gender locked, I imagine they are sweating bullets right now reading JP threads.

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So would you mind linking me your source? I keep looking at the JP forums and i don't see the craziness like here but I am superrr interested in reading their perspectives!

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Originally Posted by ErysNight

So would you mind linking me your source? I keep looking at the JP forums and i don't see the craziness like here but I am superrr interested in reading their perspectives!

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Sure, it'll take me some digging since my likes on twitter are a mess but I remember seeing some REALLY vitriolic threads on JP twitter.

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An edit like 2 hours later :

Bah. Normally I find my JP comments pretty easily but straight up, I cannot find the thread I first read. I don't know if it's been deleted or what. Without proof, it's all hearsay, so just ignore what I said previously. But I swear on me mum I wasn't imagining it. What seems to be up now is a lot of singular posts pining for male Viera politely or doing male Viera art. A lot of JP people want shota bunnies, so take that as you will (oh no). We did get a shout out on JP forums for making a stink here though. ;^)

Perhaps in the end, Yoshi-P and Co. are oblivious to what is being said, although I doubt a thread like this isn't being watched and relayed in some aspects even if we aren't JP.

Also, why is there no PM function on these forums...?

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Originally Posted by ErysNight

I don't think you've read my posts, so I can understand your pick and choose responce. You are entitled to feel that way but please understand considering how this thread is going, you're not admonishing me. I will continue to operate this way and will be back in a month either way to see how it goes down.

You didn't even read my latest post about how i think it doesn't make sense not to have male viera due to development so I mean... thank you. I agree with the sentiment of your post but you're not telling me anything I don't know, have addressed or disagree with.

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Sorry you posted that post as I was typing so I really couldn't respond to it..

I was more referencing your critiques on those who were "disgusting" to you. Just saying the way I saw you engaging in argument would've probably made the forecast for your opinion on the thread worse, not better. I've seen too many a forum thread go down the toilet because people keep pushing each other to double down on their emotional state instead of restore the discussion to a more constructive state.

I do agree with your reasoning as to why it would make more sense to have viera males, and that's where my optimism is rooted as well (hence why my critiques on the potential gender lock have been conditional), but I've made it a habit to not have blind faith in a company because I've been burned before... I'll trust them when they've made an actual promise, not implied there's a promise for something.

I do think the vagueness was an absolute marketting blunder though. This is the wrong kind of anxiety to stir up for a fanbase that they have to know is frothing for any kind of information.

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Originally Posted by ErysNight

Source for quadrupled budget?

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That should be tripled, I thought I might be mis-remembering. I'll see if I can find it, I had a link saved for it but it's pretty much dead. It was based on figures that allegedly appeared in their JP financial reports, revealing c$36m as compared to HW's $10m. I know that it's been confirmed at the least that they poured money from the cash shop into the EU data center upgrade.


Regarding whether two races will be too much content to put out, I think it depends on what else is happening and how efficiently they're utilising their funds. So far, they haven't revealed anything that would be out of the ordinary for an expansion - they've teased 3 zones (the past 2 expansions have released 6, and I would not be surprised if this went up a bit), there's 2 jobs on the horizon (in line with SB - more is unlikely) and at least half a new race and 9 dungeons (as opposed to 8.) We know of the cross-over raid and also the world visit system and new game+. I don't recall much else of significance. So perhaps the special "feature" of the expansion is the two new races.

People keep going on like only the JP/NA/EU player's desires/tastes count. They seem to be forgetting the large player bases in the Korean and Chinese markets. People often talk about how genderlocking is a staple of Korean MMO's, so new genderlocked races couldn't possibly be catering to that crowd? Especially when those are areas they would likely look to be increasing their playerbase even more as they may have reached a plateau in the NA/EU/JP regions.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/313f...itemid=5236578

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

People keep going on like only the JP/NA/EU player's desires/tastes count. They seem to be forgetting the large player bases in the Korean and Chinese markets. People often talk about how genderlocking is a staple of Korean MMO's, so new genderlocked races couldn't possibly be catering to that crowd? Especially when those are areas they would likely look to be increasing their playerbase even more as they may have reached a plateau in the NA/EU/JP regions.

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Increasing market share in another region is one thing. Doing it at the expense of their existing market shares in three other regions is counter-productive in the extreme. Also, as a counter-point to this the next Korean MMO making its way west this year, Astellia Online, has gender locks in the Korean build but the developers are busy removing them for the version intended for American and European markets. Not to mention their North American and European player base has been increasing the last year or so. That is why both the EU and NA are getting new datacenters specifically to accommodate that growing player base.

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Originally Posted by Karl0217

Increasing market share in another region is one thing. Doing it at the expense of their existing market shares in three other regions is counter-productive in the extreme. Also, as a counter-point to this the next Korean MMO making its way west this year, Astellia Online, has gender locks in the Korean build but the developers are busy removing them for the version intended for American and European markets.

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To sum it up: Gender locked important content=trash game.

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Originally Posted by Karl0217

Increasing market share in another region is one thing. Doing it at the expense of their existing market shares in three other regions is counter-productive in the extreme. Also, as a counter-point to this the next Korean MMO making its way west this year, Astellia Online, has gender locks in the Korean build but the developers are busy removing them for the version intended for American and European markets.

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There's that inflated notion that adding one pair of genderlocked races will somehow majorly damage the game in the west. You people are delusional at this point, I swear.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

There's that inflated notion that adding one pair of genderlocked races will somehow majorly damage the game in the west. You people are delusional at this point, I swear.

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Gender-locked races definitely damaged the 1.0 version of the game enough that one of the first things Yoshida did after taking over the project was remove them. Or have you forgotten that?

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Originally Posted by Karl0217

Gender-locked races definitely damaged the 1.0 version of the game enough that one of the first things Yoshida did after taking over the project was remove them. Or have you forgotten that?

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You'd be absolutely hard pressed to back that claim up with any actual hard evidence. The genderlocks in 1.0 were FAR from anywhere near the myriad of issues that plagued that game.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

You'd be absolutely hard pressed to back that claim up with any actual hard evidence. The genderlocks in 1.0 were FAR from anywhere near the myriad of issues that plagued that game.

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That doesn't erase the fact that it was one of the many highlights and defining features that made ARR a better game with more customization options, with one of its allures being no more gender locked races.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

You'd be absolutely hard pressed to back that claim up with any actual hard evidence. The genderlocks in 1.0 were FAR from anywhere near the myriad of issues that plagued that game.

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Never said they were the only issue. As for hard evidence, the fact they devoted money, time and manpower to undoing the gender-locks on the Highlander Hyur, Miqo'te and Roedraygn for the 2.0 build speaks for itself. As you just said, myriad issues plagued the 1.0 build; yet removing the gender-locks on the races was one of the things they gave priority to. Obviously the development team viewed it of critical importance; I wonder why.

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Originally Posted by Karl0217

Never said they were the only issue. As for hard evidence, the fact they devoted money, time and manpower to undoing the gender-locks on the Highlander Hyur, Miqo'te and Roedraygn for the 2.0 build speaks for itself. As you just said, myriad issues plagued the 1.0 build; yet removing the gender-locks on the races was one of the things they gave priority to. Obviously the development team viewed it of critical importance; I wonder why.

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You need to prove the gender locks had a meaningful damaging effect on 1.0. Them undoing the gender locks isn't indicative of them necessarily feeling like they were damaging to the game, but were likely just one of many avenues they could use to earn bonus points with their existing and future playerbase for the relaunch. Just because they did something to try and regain favor after their game failed so bad it damaged the entire brand doesn't mean they will always do such. Especially considering Yoshida himself said he might do a future gender locked race as a counterpart to Viera after they had undone the 1.0 gender locks.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

You need to prove the gender locks had a meaningful damaging effect on 1.0. Them undoing the gender locks isn't indicative of them necessarily feeling like they were damaging to the game, but were likely just one of many avenues they could use to earn bonus points with their existing and future playerbase for the relaunch. Just because they did something to try and regain favor after their game failed so bad it damaged the entire brand doesn't mean they will always do such. Especially considering Yoshida himself said he might do a future gender locked race as a counterpart to Viera after they had undone the 1.0 gender locks.

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If you want to play that game how about you first prove that a gender-locked race will be a major selling feature for the Korean and Chinese markets. It is not like that market is lacking in games with that feature. In fact, where is your hard statistical data that Square Enix re-introducing gender locked races (after removing them previously) won't have a negative impact on their NA/JP/EU markets? I see a lot of personal opinion in your posts but little in the way of hard data.

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Originally Posted by ErysNight

I engage you to consider the following though: Japan is a highly traditional country where even though in America we might be slightly more progressive... In Japan the typical "Sexy/soft female - Strong male" thing is their desired preset. It's ingrained in their culture as a patriarchal society.

So while they are a global company, they have to make certain accommodations (male bunny suit) they aren't going to jump with arms wide open into feminine bunnybois. This is represented in every anime trophe ever. But it's not as though strides haven't been made, we've seen some more progressive themes filter into the game little by little. But I mean keep in mind that this game is created by a japanese company. It's going to take time.

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I live in Japan and have for 5 years so far and am married to a Japanese man. I can tell you that actually, pretty men are quite popular here. No one even bats an eye at men with "cutesy" things like adorable phone cases (and I do mean sickeningly adorable ones that you'd probably never see men in the US having unless they are extremely comfortable in their sexuality or openly homosexual.), super cute charms and plushies dangling from their bags or phones, and in general being fashion conscious. Most men are slim... the only time I saw many buff men here was in university since my uni was known for PE and it was always obvious when the guys were studying for that. But look at any advertisements here, any popular and "heart throb" actors and any popular male singers. They are almost entirely "pretty boys". In fact, even looking at most protagonists from the FF series.... mostly pretty boys. Right? The buff guys tend to hang out as supporting characters. Why? Because they know that this is what sells.

I think the case with XIV is a bit different. There is no main character to sell - primarily Derplander acts as the "main character" and I think we can all agree that for the most part, midlander hyur males are "pretty boys". They are the "default" race for a reason. I think it's pretty obvious that in this case, if they don't include Viera males, it comes down to Yoshi P's personal taste which is a bit disappointing (I don't think it's Matsuno's personal choice, as if it were then I find it unlikely that those old concept arts would have happened in the first place). Did you know that Lakshmi was originally designed to look more like a traditional Hindu Goddess? She was more plump and mature looking. However, according to Soken, Yoshi P demanded that she be made cute and forced the dev team to change her. Her song even almost ended up changed but luckily everyone stood against Yoshi P on that and I feel the only reason they could convince him to keep it was because the song isn't meant to be sung by Lakshmi herself. I respect Yoshi P a lot but it's disappointing to me that he lets his own personal taste get in the way of his business sense at times. Although I do understand, especially with Lakshmi, pretty women sell. But so do pretty men!





I think, if male miqote had never been made playable, there would be a much smaller outcry. Most people arguing here are citing lore as a reason. But I feel it's a very weak reason, especially when someone has already crunched lore accurate numbers and found male moon keepers are more rare than male viera. What's more, I think player characters should be treated as if they don't exist since regardless, they do not line up with what lore dictates they should (way too many miqote, for sure - not enough hyurs).

In the end, I've been playing since 2.0 alpha and I certainly won't stop simply because they don't give us male Viera. Heck, I already pre-ordered. But I do think it's incredibly disappointing if the main reason we don't get Viera males is because Yoshi P was "uncomfortable" with them. And that WOULD be the reason, as I really don't buy lore being why when miqote have already broken that and when player characters should have no bearing on lore anyway. As long as the NPCs remain appropriately dispersed then I don't see the issue - I mean, I think I can count the number of male moon keeper NPCs I've seen on one hand. And outside of tribe areas, it's pretty rare to see male sun seekers, too. You know, lore also states that White Mages should only be padjals. In fact, in the class quest the brother was adamant that the player character cannot know the ways of the white mage. Yet we have tons of white mages running around. I'm pretty sure white mage can't be the only job that's not meant to be easily wielded by a majority of the population. PLAYER CHARACTERS CANNOT BE INCLUDED AS CANONICAL IN THE WORLD OR ELSE ALMOST ALL LORE IS BROKEN.

I'm not sure what to expect though. Will it truly be gender locked? Won't it be? We lack enough information to make any accurate guesses. But the response from Yoshi P when asked about males to "wait until fanfest" is a bit telling. It's possible the males simply weren't ready and maybe Matsuno wanted to be present for their unveiling since he couldn't be for the race as a whole. But it's also possible that he simply wants to reveal Hrothgar as the "male equivalent" - he can't do that at EU fanfest of course. To simply say "No male Viera" is harsh. But to say, "Well... we don't have male Viera but we DO have Hrothgar!!!" is, at least potentially in SE's eyes, less harsh. And perhaps they hope that the entirely new "surprise" race will be enough to placate the player base's rage about not having male Viera. So that's why he chose not to answer a direct yes or no. Who knows, truly. But I do hope that we are all worrying for nothing.

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Originally Posted by Karl0217

If you want to play that game how about you first prove that a gender-locked race will be a major selling feature for the Korean and Chinese markets. It is not like that market is lacking in games with that feature. In fact, where is your hard statistical data that Square Enix re-introducing gender locked races (after removing them previously) won't have a negative impact on their NA/JP/EU markets? I see a lot of personal opinion in your posts but little in the way of hard data.

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I don't have to prove anything because unlike you making direct statements that they did X because of Y in the past I was only proposing a theory as to potential reasoning for something they may or may not have done. I'm not claiming they absolutely did something because of other markets, but it could absolutely be a factor in the decision.

And no player race is a major selling point for this game's expansions. Stormblood did better than ever without adding a new player race. The good thing is the burden of proof is on you still to first prove that the game would be damaged if they added genderlocked races. It certainly didn't hurt FFXI's success, to the point they didn't change it when they first made FFXIV. It wasn't until that game failed catastrophically did they then use it as an opportunity to earn brownie points fixing it, to which then stating publicly they were open to a future genderlocked race with Viera specifically.

Besides, Heavensward didn't get damaged when they opted for Au Ra over viera. Stormblood didn't get damaged when they opted for Nothing over viera. Now Shadowbringers is coming, and it's bringing the viera that the vast majority of players aware of what a viera is think of when they think of viera. So yeah, its a pretty safe assumption nothing is going to happen except a bunch of whining.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

I don't have to prove anything because unlike you making direct statements that they did X because of Y in the past I was only proposing a theory as to potential reasoning for something they may or may not have done. I'm not claiming they absolutely did something because of other markets, but it could absolutely be a factor in the decision.

And no player race is a major selling point for this game's expansions. Stormblood did better than ever without adding a new player race. The good thing is the burden of proof is on you still to first prove that the game would be damaged if they added genderlocked races. It certainly didn't hurt FFXI's success, to the point they didn't change it when they first made FFXIV. It wasn't until that game failed catastrophically did they then use it as an opportunity to earn brownie points fixing it, to which then stating publicly they were open to a future genderlocked race with Viera specifically.

Besides, Heavensward didn't get damaged when they opted for Au Ra over viera. Stormblood didn't get damaged when they opted for Nothing over viera. Now Shadowbringers is coming, and it's bringing the viera that the vast majority of players aware of what a viera is think of when they think of viera. So yeah, its a pretty safe assumption nothing is going to happen except a bunch of whining.

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Uhh you are the one who's always asking me to prove every single thing I say and now you can't back up your own nonsensical posts? You don't care about player character race but for other people it does matter, especially when its a race as popular and well-known as Viera. You only ever seem to demand evidence when people go against you, and now you can't be bothered to bring up evidence the one time someone calls you out. FFXI was ok in the context of the time it released in-things changed-and MMORPGs that repeated genderlocking have failed here in the West. No one here that I know of is playing games like Tera. FFXIV and WoW are what's dominating the fantasy genre of MMORPGs and neither game has genderlocked races.

Enjoy these male Vieras, whose artists didn't feel "uncomfortable" drawing:

http://orig08.deviantart.net/51dd/f/...y_by_lelia.jpg

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88...5esmf7-pre.jpg

https://66.media.tumblr.com/68db16e3...6f9fo1_500.png

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Originally Posted by redcurrant18

Uhh you are the one who's always asking me to prove every single thing I say and now you can't back up your own nonsensical posts?

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The irony of you calling anyone out about nonsensical posts is hilarous.

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You don't care about player character race but for other people it does matter, especially when its a race as popular and well-known as Viera.

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It's a good thing the players are getting Viera then. Considering only female Viera have ever been shown in Final Fantasy games that's exactly what we're getting.

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You only ever seem to demand evidence when people go against you, and now you can't be bothered to bring up evidence the one time someone calls you out.

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If you can't grasp why a hypothetical explanation for a decision that has yet to happen is different than claiming something absolutely happened without evidence than I can't help you there. I've provided more than enough evidence for plenty of claims I've made when asked.

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FFXI was ok in the context of the time it released in-things changed-and MMORPGs that repeated genderlocking have failed here in the West.

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For one, there's a big difference between releasing a genderlocked race that can play everything, and a game where the genderlocking is tied to actual gameplay elements/classes. Two, once again, you'd be hard pressed to prove that was why those games did poorly (and even then, to what extent is it them failing? Tera is still around, and it came out in 2012 in the West. Black Deserts is still around, as is Vindictus (2010). Upcoming big western developed MMO Darkfall, which earned a lot in crowdfunding has gender and race locked classes.
Wildstar(2014) didn't have gender locking, and even had an animal eared race where the males were smaller than the females (Like a lot of people seem to want for Viera). Is that game still around?
Other MMO's (debatably) failing that happened to have gender locks isn't proof that gender locks ruin a game, especially when those games had many other issues( Even then, most of those game's genderlocking is of a worse kind, tying it to actual playable content in the form of restricting classes). Just like me using Wildstar as an example of an (actual) failed MMO isn't proof that having an animal eared race ruins MMO's.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I don't like gender-locking races in principle. I can understand why it would be enough to drive someone to unsub.

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Put me on the boat of "gender locking race = unsub". Breaking the possibility of player identity is a big nope for me.

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Originally Posted by Taykawai

Put me on the boat of "gender locking race = unsub". Breaking the possibility of player identity is a big nope for me.

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Out of curiosity would you stay subbed or resub if it was either mentioned to be added later or was?

Lets say your worst case scenario they make two genderlocked races giving whatever reason they give, if it was said to be happening later or did happen later = continue sub/resub?

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Out of curiosity would you stay subbed or resub if it was either mentioned to be added later or was?

Lets say your worst case scenario they make two genderlocked races giving whatever reason they give, if it was said to be happening later or did happen later = continue sub/resub?

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Absolutly. But if they chose to remain silent after the revel of gender locked races it's a bye bye. It's not a matter if you care or care not about playing male viera or other race, to me its about constrain player options and further limit in game freedom. I can choose my name, i can choose my class, why can't i choose my gender?

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Originally Posted by Taykawai

Absolutly. But if they chose to remain silent after the revel of gender locked races it's a bye bye. It's not a matter if you care or care not about playing male viera or other race, to me its about constrain player options and further limit in game freedom. I can chose my name, i can chose my class, why can't i chose my gender?

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:), was interested - thanks for answering~

I am not a huge fan of gender lock.. It could be sold to me but it'd have to be sold well.. For example if I brought up a race with a virus that's destroying all the females of the population, THEN I also said I'm going to let you play that race. Would make sense you don't get to play the gender that's going to die in a month or less XD. Or another example I'd accept is the Asari from Mass Effect, where they don't really have a male gender and just sort of mesh with the others. Alternatively maybe I'd think about making a genderless race, but even if they had a type (generally male like or female like) I'd probably work on adding some androgynous options then like a Kuja or Zidane from FFIX (especially Kuja lol).

The problem for me is Viera wasn't introduced in an order that really gets me lining up with the above sort of logic. It helps for me that I started with zero interest to be male Viera so its not a huge loss to me personally as a FFXIV player but I can emulate the idea of being upset if I had interest in it (and the annoyance if it was locked when there doesn't seem to be a good reason anywhere why).

IF they do lock it I imagine it will have to do with jump rope budget and trying to get a leaking WoW ship, or budget jump rope with indecision on two races the team really loves (not great to be so split as a team but I can see it happening), or that one or both devs have some REALLY strong opinons on male Viera XD. Jump rope budget I just made up but = you've got so much resources and you can't do all the things lol.

If it's just jump rope budget then I feel fairly confident they'll be unlocked in the future. I get why some people might feel "passed up" if SE was trying to get a part of the market of a leaking ship that they might not have interested enough before (those who play undead, troll, tauren, draenai, etc) but at the same time I can see from a business perspective trying to weigh out new blood old blood and maximizing both. If I was playing that game, which I am not qualified to play (arm chair comments here lol), I'd be sure to let people know male Viera will be coming and the feedback on how they wanted it to appear will be accounted for.

Now if the reason is strong opinions against (say the creator Matsuno or Yoshi-P put their foot down).. well then.. .... just well.. lol.

Alternatively the lion-like leak race is a lie and you get both genders of Viera and thats it, or we get two full races with both genders. :) It's still possible, although seems very "no..no way.. no really? wow?!! 1!!" haha.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think gender locks are silly. I've said as much throughout this thread. Yet as long as there's an equivalent it's not nearly as damning as some are making it out to be.

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I am just curious but would you say the same if one gender locked race would be a beastly awesome female without the male part and the male being a small cute race? Because I do get the feeling that you might be more fine with this because the other mentioned race could be something you like more than a male viera, but maybe I see that wrong.

Anyway, I really hope that they dont decide to gender lock Viera, especially since that could mean that the first more beastly race is again just male..which sadly would go hand in hand with the game where most female enemies are good looking, while a lot of male ones are more beastly..

I really hope we will get both races, that would finally create some hype for me..

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Originally Posted by Mikki

I think the case with XIV is a bit different. There is no main character to sell - primarily Derplander acts as the "main character" and I think we can all agree that for the most part, midlander hyur males are "pretty boys".

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As of late, he's a very rugged pretty boy.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Anyway, I really hope that they dont decide to gender lock Viera, especially since that could mean that the first more beastly race is again just male..which sadly would go hand in hand with the game where most female enemies are good looking, while a lot of male ones are more beastly...

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Male miqo'te, midlanders, elezen and au ra are all good looking. Although the latter do verge on being a bit more beastly, their faces are still very well proportioned and their bodies not overly bulky. Then there's cutesy lalafell. Really, the only race with bestial proportions is roegadyn.

Personally, I hope they stick with facial features like Byakko's for these Hrothgar.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Male miqo'te, midlanders, elezen and au ra are all good looking. Although the latter do verge on being a bit more beastly, their faces are still very well proportioned and their bodies not overly bulky. Then there's cutesy lalafell. Really, the only race with bestial proportions is roegadyn.

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Note that Alleo talked about enemies.
Ifrit, Titan, Levi. They're all either animals or ... whatever Titan's supposed to be.
Then you have Shiva and Garuda and Lakshmi. You can call lore elements all you want but the fact remains you're not going to find a completely deformed female enemy because they want them to still be waifu material.
Speaking of Waifu, there's Pazuzu, and Waifuzuzu - Penny. Pazuzu's a flying piece of armor while Penny is a lovely, elegant, attractive humanoid lady with wings.
And you can say what you want about male Au Ra, but they came along with some grade A+ Waifu material with fem Au Ra. That's the issue here. And it's so prevalent that the "fierce, amazonian" Viera were shown in the reveal trailer to be all cutesy and giggly.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Male miqo'te, midlanders, elezen and au ra are all good looking. Although the latter do verge on being a bit more beastly, their faces are still very well proportioned and their bodies not overly bulky. Then there's cutesy lalafell. Really, the only race with bestial proportions is roegadyn.

Personally, I hope they stick with facial features like Byakko's for these Hrothgar.

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I meant it more in the way that we have more beastly looking males (be it as enemies or as races) than female ones and having only female Vieras and a more beastly male race would just go into that very direction which would be sad for me because I wish I could play a more beastly women without having to go Roe. (I mean that is the only female race right now that can compete with the not-so-cute races and yet they are still nothing against their male version)

Just look at Sophia and Lakshimi and compare them to Byakko, Zurvan and most other male bosses. Heck our snake boy is the only one that is more pretty than beastly. (As far as I can remember)

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Note that Alleo talked about enemies.

And you can say what you want about male Au Ra, but they came along with some grade A+ Waifu material with fem Au Ra. That's the issue here. And it's so prevalent that the "fierce, amazonian" Viera were shown in the reveal trailer to be all cutesy and giggly.

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Yeah I talked mostly about enemies. Also you are right about the female Vieras, they may look much more sexy but still they showed them as quite cute and on top of that I saw at least one female Au Ra emote. Holding her arm with her other hand like that just dont look fierce at all...

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Note that Alleo talked about enemies.
Ifrit, Titan, Levi. They're all either animals or ... whatever Titan's supposed to be.
Then you have Shiva and Garuda and Lakshmi. You can call lore elements all you want but the fact remains you're not going to find a completely deformed female enemy because they want them to still be waifu material.
Speaking of Waifu, there's Pazuzu, and Waifuzuzu - Penny. Pazuzu's a flying piece of armor while Penny is a lovely, elegant, attractive humanoid lady with wings.
And you can say what you want about male Au Ra, but they came along with some grade A+ Waifu material with fem Au Ra. That's the issue here. And it's so prevalent that the "fierce, amazonian" Viera were shown in the reveal trailer to be all cutesy and giggly.

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I'm much less bothered about what the enemies look like. Technically, we know from some cases you can't even tell the gender, e.g. Ixal, Goblins, Amaljaa etc. It's more that the foes with ostensibly female features tend to be pretty. Still, there's plenty of things that could be female, but you wouldn't even know. And then things that look female, but aren't, like some Voidsent. Primals tend to be worshiped as gods, so I'm not surprised by the way their followers choose to represent them, in terms of their cultural ideals. Garuda is arguably beautiful but she is still considered to be the most ferocious of the earlier primals.

Regarding playable races, I was sorely disappointed with female au ra. One need not even have made them amazonian, just taller. However, I'd have also tried to link them to the dragonflights in some way and based their traits off that, with xaela being capable of sporting slightly more monstrous features and raen as they are (minus taller women), so my thoughts on them are already a bit divergent to where most people's are. I still dislike the females. I'm not all too surprised about the Viera, considering what I think they're being used to do, but yes they are very, very effeminate. At least they didn't make them tiny.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I meant it more in the way that we have more beastly looking males (be it as enemies or as races) than female ones and having only female Vieras and a more beastly male race would just go into that very direction which would be sad for me because I wish I could play a more beastly women without having to go Roe. (I mean that is the only female race right now that can compete with the not-so-cute races and yet they are still nothing against their male version)

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I certainly understand that, but what of highlander females? Yes, they're not super bulky or butch but they're less cutesy than any other female pick and they're still pretty. I get the impression that some people just want reverse dimorphism, because I struggle to see how roe or highlander females can't be played as amazonian. Or is there some other issue with them? Maybe I'm missing what is meant by "beastly" here.

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Just look at Sophia and Lakshimi and compare them to Byakko, Zurvan and most other male bosses. Heck our snake boy is the only one that is more pretty than beastly. (As far as I can remember)

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I mean Zurvan and Byakko both have handsome faces, but they're muscular. Muscularity is a trait that is perceived to be attractive on males, mostly for evolutionary reasons. Not necessarily to extremes, and yes Zurvan has a scorpion body (much like Lamias have snake bodies), and I'll agree that the balance is definitely more in favour of the women being beautiful, but I can't say it bothers me that much. As I said, there's plenty of females out there that we simply can't tell are females. I'm sure Sorceress Adel will make a cameo at some point, though. ;)

I must be alone in not finding Seiryu particularly attractive.

I keep seeing these arguments regarding the original games and how the males weren't shown, and I'm just okay. These things are pretty easy to explain away. If Matsuno didn't like the idea of a male Viera he wouldn't have created the lore to have them in the first place. This kind of thinking where oh 'well they didn't add them into the game = well the creator doesn't like them' is silly.

You know what else we didn't see in that game?

• -Female Rev
• -Female Garif
• -Female Ronso (for the most part)
• -Female Banga that could be distinguished from the males - cost efficient to have them use the same models.

In regards to the first two, we know they exist - they're in the lore. Rev got completed shafted, however. In regards to female Ronso, we see, like what? Two? And they were only added so there could be some diversity into the blitzball team.

Does the creator hate those races as well? Or maybe because there's no point into adding a model into a game that isn't going to have any use at all. There is no point adding something into the game that doesn't need to be added if it has little to no consequence to the main story. It's a waste of money, time and space.

Furthermore, the lore for Viera was expanded recently regarding FF14. Tactics they just had the females; yet again, makes sense - what's the point adding in another model just for the sake of it? Heck, the lore in that game also falsely identifies them as 'female only' - they could have followed that lore instead if they wished.

In fact in tactics the Viera race was dead and we were in a 'dream world'. In the second one, they returned and were alive, though as someone stated; could easily have been the fact the males hadn't returned yet from that purgatory - or returned to a different place.

A reminder as well that these were released back in the 90s, where sex appeal was big. Still is, but it was more common back then. Does anyone remember the early Tomb Raider games? Or how big Tifa's chest was/is?

And before we get to the argument of; but the male Viera is useless for ShadowBringers - we won't need them. Considering where we're going, what the plot might give us and the times that the WoD is living in, well... We don't have a Fran to escort us through the woods this time.

I'm happy that there's just so much lore on the males after so long of near nothing. I'm glad they expanded upon that, I hope they did it for a reason that is beyond that of - lore reason why genderlocks exist.

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Originally Posted by Karl0217

The thing is we have already seen them change these statements with the Au Ra; because French language rules dictate gender-neutral terms because of their name starting with an A. So we have seen how this coding works when there is only one gender option.

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I don't think that means that they actually share the *programming* of the pronoun - it would just mean that the same pronoun is put into the male Au Ra and female Au Ra text.

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Originally Posted by redcurrant18

Wracking my head trying to figure out how on earth they could possibly justify having no male Viera being visible. I doubt a single forest fire would be enough to kill them off, regardless of whether or not it was caused by Garleans. They couldn't be killed by Black Rose either, since if that were the case it would not only kill them but the entire female Viera village and the Nu Mou as well.

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If they're going to be unseen, then I think it's simple enough that they just actively avoid us. Maybe we'll have a female Viera accompanying us, or maybe word can somehow be passed to them that we're allowed to be there, and they'll let us travel safely through the forest and just never come into contact with us.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

The who now?

Our boy is becoming the WoD. :D

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Who says we aren't still being the Warrior of Light as well?

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Originally Posted by redcurrant18

Because not everyone does raids. If you don't do the Coils of Bahamut they retcon the MSQ for you. The lore around this kind of side content is subject to change. If you haven't done Return to Ivalice, Fran will probably be introduced in a completely different way if they decide to make her relevant in Shadowbringers, and any Viera lore about them keeping to the forest will probably be thrown out the window.

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There's a difference between retconning the sequence of events (eg. pretending the Binding Coil didn't happen yet) and actually "throwing out" lore that you skipped. Ignoring the Coils doesn't change the facts about what's there. Ignoring the Ivalice raid doesn't mean that the lore established there doesn't apply to the rest of the game.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Au Ra is a beast race like lalafell is tall >.> lol. Ronso, Charr, Lupis, Pantera.. things like that are beast race (alibet Lupis and Pantera have strong humandoid features, but still fairly beastly more so than Au Ra and Miqote imo).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Also I came up with, imo, the:
Beast Race Test

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Au Ra is a beast(like) race by this game's limited space in which to design races that are distinguishable as "men" rather than "beastmen". So yeah, your Beast Race Test is probably a fair gauge of that, but it's also why it's unlikely we'll get any races that pass it. Who knows whether they would be more bold with the designs if they hadn't written themselves into a corner back in ARR?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Who says we aren't still being the Warrior of Light as well?

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Maybe, maybe not. All that we do know is that the transition to WoD will certainly be coming into play.

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Originally Posted by redcurrant18

Woah where are you getting 90% out of? If these forums are any indication there are certainly more people who want both genders of Viera than gender locked races. A lot of people on other sites are constantly drawing male Viera, and even some go as far as to break the game rules and run around with mods to give them Viera ears. Pro-gender lock supporters have been the minority as far as evidence suggests.

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The people who don't care don't post.

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Originally Posted by ShinShimon

The people who don't care don't post.

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So the only ones that care for the game are the ones that post on foruns? XD

Hmm i had a revisit of stuff after someone mentioned how the trials are mostly just monstrous males and beautiful women and holey moley their right for people who may not have done all side quests

This is the most non monstrous male trial:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20170903072138
Old man with beard and this is due to them using Ramuh as a concept as in final fantasy he is always depicted as an old man so they were forced with that concept

This is the 2nd non monstrous looking trial:
https://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki...d/db/Titan.jpg
Yep Rock dude while not 'Pretty' he is very humanoid in appearance everything else that is classed as a male trial is far more Beastly after these two

For females the most monstrous looking trial:
https://gamepedia.cursecdn.com/exviu...110ddbb163ae84
Yep the OG female trial is still the most monstrous looking one and even then you really can tell how pretty they tried to make her

2nd most monstrous female:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20160923114712
This is purely for that 2nd head underneath she would be the least monstrous looking one without it

The Devs have a clear direction with how they like things and its only going to be through continued constructive feedback that they may attempt to go outside their comfort zone like more monstrous females and bunny men i would love more options for everyone but it needs to be in a way that is not too aggressive

Female monstrosities outside of the trials exist, but like I said, you won't always be able to tell if they're even female, because they lack many of the secondary female traits that human women have. Certainly, female dragons are monstrous beings by human standards.

Titan may not be the most monstrous but he's certainly one of the ugliest trial bosses.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

The Devs have a clear direction with how they like things and its only going to be through continued constructive feedback that they may attempt to go outside their comfort zone like more monstrous females and bunny men i would love more options for everyone but it needs to be in a way that is not too aggressive

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You'll have an uphill battle with that, because it'd require showing some tangible benefit to the game of doing so, like increased profitability. I doubt it's something that most players are even remotely concerned about. At least with male Viera, as it relates to a playable race option, you will manage to garner some sympathy.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Female monstrosities outside of the trials exist, but like I said, you won't always be able to tell if they're even female, because they lack many of the secondary female traits that human women have. Certainly, female dragons are monstrous beings by human standards.

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Yep plenty outside trials have very monstrous females someone mentioned trials so i did pure trials as the basis some female monstrocities we know:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6190Nc8LL1U/hqdefault.jpg
http://66.media.tumblr.com/e99fe1ac5...yrxo1_1280.png
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20140616200532

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Titan may not be the most monstrous but he's certainly one of the ugliest trial bosses.

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Agreed Byakko and Seiryu are much prettier than titan but are more monstrous as a whole can't just take the pretty faces had to consider the tiger and snakes too so that is why they are below titan

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Originally Posted by Lauront

You'll have an uphill battle with that, because it'd require showing some tangible benefit to the game of doing so, like increased profitability. I doubt it's something that most players are even remotely concerned about. At least with male Viera, as it relates to a playable race option, you will manage to garner some sympathy.

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Again agreed asking devs to go with something they are uncomfortable with is going to create friction so the demand must outweigh that safety the devs are human beings afterall and they are more likely to try it if their is enough people wanting something and are polite when asking for it every time.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Echidna and that CT boss

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They still went out of their way to give them, er, certain female bodily features, if you follow.
Now, while we're on the topic of the beast tribe, all it takes is the one look at the female-locked beast tribe to see that this pattern actually continues. In many ways, the Ananta are much closer to humans than any other beast tribe you're going to run into.
As for female dragons, I can go for quite a while about how out of the three siblings, it was Ratatoskr who was basically fridged, off-screen, without any characterization, so Nidhogg can go on a thousand years of vengeance (overly simplified but her death was a big part of why he sought vengeance, and why Hraesvelgr helped him, while we learn the most about Ratatoskr herself in the short stories). But that's straying a bit too far, so I'll leave it with the very simple point that there's a very clear, obvious pattern in how the devs both design and write a lot of their female characters. And it manifests in other things too, like how people really wouldn't be surprised if we didn't get bunny boys... even though as the developers, they could've made them as mascular and beefy as they wanted them to be to avoid feeling... uncomfortable. But the reality of the matter is that far too few people would be surprised if they did ended up gender-locking them. many of the remaining people would just be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

In fact in tactics the Viera race was dead and we were in a 'dream world'. In the second one, they returned and were alive, though as someone stated; could easily have been the fact the males hadn't returned yet from that purgatory - or returned to a different place.

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Swear to gods I have to repeat this every so often. Tactics = Every non-hume race is dead or way deeper in hiding (there is a theory somewhere that the Viera became one with the woods and became the female-looking Treants in Tactics). Tactics Advance: Dream Ivalice. Tactics A2 = Real Ivalice with Dimension Hopping/Time Travel Shenaningans, technically not Ivalice but the continent of Jylland.

Ivalice is my favorite FF setting, and Tactics my favorite FF, I tend to get irked when people confuse or conflate the first one with the Advance one :D