Bard - they broke my job

Page 165. Can you hear us yet SE?

yea bard suxs now in Heavensward.... 2.0 was awesome... R.I.P BRD it was fun while it lasted.

I refuse to use Wanderer's Minuet. Ever. I just play BRD as I did pre-3.0, with the addition of Sidewinder.

This apparently makes me a bad BRD who's gimping herself. But my position on the aggro table + the rate that things die at when I have WM off as opposed to when I have it on suggests otherwise.

As much as I would love for a variety of Bard adjustments, I feel like it's really at a point now where we should give up. I mean, why would they adjust it when it's still relatively popular (as it always will be as Bard / Machinist are considered to be required for progression) and isn't any more behind in dps than it should be? They've already done so many job adjustments and barely touched it besides the straighter shot proc and Wanderer's Minuet damage, and I'd assume if they were going to do any more it would've been done by now. Adjusting it more just means using more time, costs and resources that they don't need to use.
I'll probably still play it, though anytime I do I spend more time thinking how it could improved than just enjoying it which just gets depressing lol

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Originally Posted by AlmightyDook

Page 165. Can you hear us yet SE?

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They've heard you, they've responded. I doubt they are going to make any substantial changes until the next expansion in regards to bard play style.

Hmm, would it have been better if the cast bar was limited to just the new skills, or maybe to just make so that the cast bar would determine the damage boost before firing and still allowed players to run&gun? Would it feel better to play?

TBH, I'm starting to focus way too much on dps, and I've been really neglecting monitoring the TP and MP gauges, which was bad enough before this. And, could you guys think about making it so that wardens paean casts its affect on the entire party instead of just one party member, TY?

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

They've heard you, they've responded. I doubt they are going to make any substantial changes until the next expansion in regards to bard play style.

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What worries me about this is the chance of them learning the wrong lesson ("don't make major changes because people will complain"). Personally, if you're going to make changes to a job, you have to make sure the whole thing is cohesive instead of arbitrarily inserting things late in the job's lifespan. The changes also have to be well-implemented.

Simply put, what SE should get out of this mess is that changes need to be made across the board and have to be mechanically sound. Changes like WM don't fall into that category.

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Originally Posted by dice137

my position on the aggro table + the rate that things die at when I have WM off as opposed to when I have it on suggests otherwise.

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So you're saying things die faster with it off, than on?
That can be a number of things, for example maybe the other DPS in your dungeon happened to pop CDs for one pack of mobs but none for the previous pack?
Besides that, that's a problem with you, not the stance.
I'm currently wracking my brain looking for these mythical parses on FFlogs where the top BRD never use WM.

If you can't be bothered to learn the stance to where you're doing more DPS with it on than off, that's you but that doesn't mean it's not a DPS increase.
Like, if you don't like how it plays or you don't wanna have cast bars I can level with you but if you really believe that you lose DPS by using WM, assuming you're playing correctly, you are flat out wrong.

c'mon guys....crying yet?

http://i.imgur.com/DxHKHUp.png

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Originally Posted by aabe

So you're saying things die faster with it off, than on?
That can be a number of things, for example maybe the other DPS in your dungeon happened to pop CDs for one pack of mobs but none for the previous pack?
Besides that, that's a problem with you, not the stance.
I'm currently wracking my brain looking for these mythical parses on FFlogs where the top BRD never use WM.

If you can't be bothered to learn the stance to where you're doing more DPS with it on than off, that's you but that doesn't mean it's not a DPS increase.
Like, if you don't like how it plays or you don't wanna have cast bars I can level with you but if you really believe that you lose DPS by using WM, assuming you're playing correctly, you are flat out wrong.

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I've considered that my WM rotation may be terrible, but... I keep everything refreshed as it should be and pop buffs when up. I'm not sure what else it is I'm supposed to be doing. Are other BRDs are stacking a particular stat on their gear that I'm not? Or maybe there's a certain skill I should or shouldn't be using more often?

My guildmates would agree on noticing a significant drop in the rate things die at when I do use WM, but I know their word only means so much without hard numbers.

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Originally Posted by aabe

I'm currently wracking my brain looking for these mythical parses on FFlogs where the top BRD never use WM.

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Want to try this with me? For science. :3 See if we can break top 20 for any savage encounter with no Minuet. :D

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Originally Posted by dice137

I've considered that my WM rotation may be terrible, but...

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WM is roughly break even, if not a damage drop (esp if you use it as soon as you gain it at 52 due to relatively lower crit/det and no access to abilties), unless you're using all your oGCDs and abilities (including flame arrow, repelling shot and blunt arrow). WM needs to have those exclusive abilities and more damage from non-auto attacks to make up for the loss of the aforementioned. Using all of your river resets is important too (since it's non-auto attack damage), and AoEing should hands down be a damage gain no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

They've heard you, they've responded. I doubt they are going to make any substantial changes until the next expansion in regards to bard play style.

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This is my primary concern when they do expansions; they're cutting corners when it comes to job mechanics. Things like this can't be adjusted through hotfixes or even 3.x patches, but numbers can be if they end up being undertuned or overtuned. They previewed some good ideas for MCH but ended up scrapping most of them, made GB what it is, and gave that to BRD as well (which diminishes the novelty of it being an "attachment"), homogenizing the two jobs that much more)

It's coming from the perspective of a player that mained BRD and currently MCH, but I'm sure other players would feel just as frustrated if their job gets changes that work against the inherent nature if the job (such as requiring minimum range for damage skills as a melee job, especially without abilities to accommodate such, or positionals on casters) or given the same mechanics in 3.0 as their other counterparts.

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

Want to try this with me? For science. :3 See if we can break top 20 for any savage encounter with no Minuet. :D

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Wow nice gear set. How does the play style of BRD change with that level of Crit/Skill Speed? For "Science" would you be able to tell me about what you would think your DPS would be on a Dummy over 3 minutes, solo, no food or pots? I'm curious if my BRD damage slope is accurate and comparing my and your gear I estimate you would sit at ~1430 DPS.

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

Want to try this with me? For science. :3 See if we can break top 20 for any savage encounter with no Minuet. :D

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yessssssss I have to run as MCH this week but I'll give it a shot next week when I get DRG again lmao

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

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It's kinda like this

Personally for dummies without a goon I range between 1250-1400 for 3:30-4:00 parses, but the higher range is like food + pots + RNG so you're overestimating a teeny bit, although I dunno where Rin could be at, all I know is that they're probably better than I am :V

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Originally Posted by dice137

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Correlation =/= causation and WM hasn't been a DPS loss for the longest time, it could be something as simple as what I said that possibly in the case of dungeons the other DPS popped all their buffs for one pack, and then the next pack takes much longer to kill because they have zero buffs.

If you're noticing this issue in dungeons it could be ^ or it could be doing something very wrong, WM's bonus should shine the hardest in a dungeon run where you're multidotting and AoEing a lot because you're pulling much more potency per GCD, 30% bonus damage is preddygud for that.

If you notice a problem in raid/boss content you might just be dropping GCDs from moving around too much or something similar.

I leveled Bard 1-50 and now all of a sudden the play style I was used to and learning CHANGES?! I don't think SE knows why people loved bard in the first place... mobility..

mobility + decent DPS + Range = Not balanced.
Options:
BRD/MCH does pretty low DPS = bad idea. Current state if you dont use WM.
BRD/MCH turns into melee = no sense.
BRD/MCH has cast bar = maybe the best option for balance.

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Originally Posted by aabe

Personally for dummies without a goon I range between 1250-1400 for 3:30-4:00 parses, but the higher range is like food + pots + RNG so you're overestimating a teeny bit, although I dunno where Rin could be at, all I know is that they're probably better than I am :V

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Yeah I'm using my value of 1150-1200 DPS @ i203 with the i200 Weapon.

Rin has the Gordian Bow @ i210 with great SPD+Crit (425 acc looks like they were doing Thordan EX)

Estimated gains of 21% as I have high Det and low Crit due to using my MCN gear.

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

mobility + decent DPS + Range = Not balanced.
Options:
BRD/MCH does pretty low DPS = bad idea. Current state if you dont use WM.
BRD/MCH turns into melee = no sense.
BRD/MCH has cast bar = maybe the best option for balance.

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TBH, the dps for bard has never been very high or a problem. It has just never been factually a problem for anything other than enmity due to the constant uptime that the job has naturally, which makes it a wonderful solo class and kiter. And, it is only in the aspect that I think it can be claimed as a broken class. Especially, with the 2.0 Shadowbind, which I really miss having. Now, IMO, I'm pretty sure it's a combination of the bard's uptime thanks to its run&gun play-style, a belief that emnity rank equals to who is doing the most damage, and the more advantageous solo play that grinds peoples gears. Our DPS is so not that high. It just totally looks unbalanced because of the infinite uptime.

As for WM: the only real complaint is the jarring difference in how it changes the bard's play-style into that of a frantic black mage.

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

T. Our DPS is so not that high. It just totally looks unbalanced because of the infinite uptime.

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The "infinite uptime" isn't all that it's made out to be though when the other jobs can maximize their uptimes and still contribute more dps than a BRD on average. The solo play is also incredibly absent for the most part, especially in the open world where aggroing more than one mob is generally a death sentence for a job that has arguably the least amount of self healing and defensive cooldown.

I won't disagree that BRD was incredivbly good at the release of 2.0, but it's not for their damage, but their utility; a damage down debuff before it was handed to warrior's storm's path and access to the most reliable and anti-situational silence for bosses like ADS.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

The "infinite uptime" isn't all that it's made out to be though when the other jobs can maximize their uptimes and still contribute more dps than a BRD on average. The solo play is also incredibly absent for the most part, especially in the open world where aggroing more than one mob is generally a death sentence for a job that has arguably the least amount of self healing and defensive cooldown.

I won't disagree that BRD was incredivbly good at the release of 2.0, but it's not for their damage, but their utility; a damage down debuff before it was handed to warrior's storm's path and access to the most reliable and anti-situational silence for bosses like ADS.

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It was their damage though. Unnerfed cross-class B4B and IR, at a time when melee were incredibly weaker than their 2.1 (and future) versions, and in general there was no mechanic that was more streamlined or simpler with a 2X melee comp over mostly ranged ... it was not a good time for ranged vs melee balance.

i would love to see that uptime some1 was talking about , because all the melees have gap closers so losing 2-3s isnt that bad... bards lose some GCD here and there too now...when dealing with random mechanics.

even then numbers dont lie.... i wonder what will happen with relics...or later on expansion...i guess wars will outdps brds when able to OT most of the time. They are almost there now.

Ppl will say but u bring utility... lol and WAR's dont? with slashing , -10% dmg taken and being TANKS ? , i felt the same on 2.0 at the end of the expansion , i kept raiding as brd because i was geared (and i enjoyed the job) plus we had 2 casters (now we run drg, nin , smn , brd) my foe requiem will be "nice" to have same as mp i guess...but i will wonder ....dude where is my dmg?

hope im wrong!

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

i would love to see that uptime some1 was talking about , because all the melees have gap closers so losing 2-3s isnt that bad... bards lose some GCD here and there too now...when dealing with random mechanics.

even then numbers dont lie.... i wonder what will happen with relics...or later on expansion...i guess wars will outdps brds when able to OT most of the time. They are almost there now.

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I would love to see some type of proof from parties where everyone knows what they're doing. BRD DPS is fine where it's at. I just started raiding as BRD a month ago and haven't had any issues with DPS. It outshines is counterpart MCH by a mile. I really don't get the complaints. Evasion down, Silence and one of the best debuffs in the game. BRD is pretty set.

i cant speak for MCH but as raiding brd from 2.0 until now....ugh...the new "meta" hurts brds , since we now have 2 melee instead of 2 casters , but now healers dps more , and dps wise we are the same as we were in 2.0 , i would love to see a boost to sustained dps somehow because like i said , we are "ok-on the low side" but later on im afraid we gonna need a boost to keep up... blame it on potency , weapon damage (come on SE! "fix" that already) , or hell they are going the lazy route and boost WM/GB every now and then to keep "brd/mch" where "the job should be" , and thats below every dps , and a little above war :rolleyes:

that made sense in 2.0? yes...but not anymore...imho

oh and remove Wardens paean and gimme something usefull.... +10% physical dmg taken would be awesome sauce (same for mch ofc ! we are cousins afterall) one can dream afterall :P

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

oh and remove Wardens paean and gimme something usefull.... +10% physical dmg taken would be awesome sauce (same for mch ofc ! we are cousins afterall) one can dream afterall :P

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I found out Warden's Paean affected the entire group originally, and then they took it out. Now I am sad.

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Originally Posted by Tonberrian

I found out Warden's Paean affected the entire group originally, and then they took it out. Now I am sad.

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It would've been nice to make it an inverse of fey caress (prevents the application of buffs that can be cleansed), or just work like fey caress with a 2 minute cooldown. Although at the same time, BRD shouldn't have that big of a niche (esp for fights like A3S' throttle or thordan where you could essentially ignore 1 tower) over MCH when they have a more potent damage amplifier AND evade down for healer dps.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

It was their damage though. Unnerfed cross-class B4B and IR, at a time when melee were incredibly weaker than their 2.1 (and future) versions, and in general there was no mechanic that was more streamlined or simpler with a 2X melee comp over mostly ranged ... it was not a good time for ranged vs melee balance.

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Not disagreeing, but that was two years ago...

While SE was buffing and fine tuning Mnk and Drg through updates during 2.X, they should have been "unnerfing" Brd little by little. Not saying they should have ultimately reverted Brd back to the way it was at 2.0 release over time, but going through most of the 2.X updates post 2.1....and leaving Brd largely untouched was piss poor. It was hard to notice back then, but when the xpac dropped...the lack of attention through said updates had added up and it was way too obvious.

As someone that has embraced Minuet, and still plays and raid with Brd, the gap between there dps and that of casters/melee shouldn't be the way it is currently (being placed in an isolated box along with Mch is unfair----they are still dps b4 anything else). The Minuet tweak to 30% was a step in the right direction....but it's still 30%. And that's just to keep Brd close to where they were in terms of dealing dmg b4 the xpac came out. This may be ok for dungeons and DF, but for someone that also raids like myself...I think Brd could still use some improvements Dps wise.

....change the end game meta to "moar dps," "moar dps," "moar dps" but keep Brd on the end of the spectrum where they mostly contribute the least amount of dmg among dps over a long fight (while making it so a War can contribute as much as a Brd---if not more at times), not cool

....making it so most dps jobs now bring at least one very useful "utility" to a party but still only penalize Brd for their's, also not cool

I should've read the patchnotes before buying HW a week ago. Played the PLD to 60, so I could start to farm the Tomestones earlier. Afterwards I started leveling my "main" - the BRD. Well, now I hit lvl 52 with him. Saw the utterly ridiculous spell I gained and googled a bit. Thought of switching to the MCH. Googled his lvl 52 spell afterwards...

Casting in this game feels clunky at best. But most of the time it's just awful. Sometimes your cast will be executed even if you move 0.5 sec before it's finished. And sometimes it won't at 0.1 sec. Not to mention the hidden lockouts you suffer from moving. I honestly can't understand how anyone could play like this. I certainly won't.

Good bye, FFXIV. It was a fun week. But that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Kelevra

Not disagreeing, but that was two years ago...

While SE was buffing and fine tuning Mnk and Drg through updates during 2.X, they should have been "unnerfing" Brd little by little. Not saying they should have ultimately reverted Brd back to the way it was at 2.0 release over time, but going through most of the 2.X updates post 2.1....and leaving Brd largely untouched was piss poor. It was hard to notice back then, but when the xpac dropped...the lack of attention through said updates had added up and it was way too obvious.

As someone that has embraced Minuet, and still plays and raid with Brd, the gap between there dps and that of casters/melee shouldn't be the way it is currently (being placed in an isolated box along with Mch is unfair----they are still dps b4 anything else). The Minuet tweak to 30% was a step in the right direction....but it's still 30%. And that's just to keep Brd close to where they were in terms of dealing dmg b4 the xpac came out. This may be ok for dungeons and DF, but for someone that also raids like myself...I think Brd could still use some improvements Dps wise.

....change the end game meta to "moar dps," "moar dps," "moar dps" but keep Brd on the end of the spectrum where they mostly contribute the least amount of dmg among dps over a long fight (while making it so a War can contribute as much as a Brd---if not more at times), not cool

....making it so most dps jobs now bring at least one very useful "utility" to a party but still only penalize Brd for their's, also not cool

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yep , i feel the same way , and cant agree more ...is at times infuriating. I feel like my bard didnt advance like the other jobs in HW...all other jobs got new toys or ways to cover the old holes coming from 2.0 (see healers as perfect example : sch lacked aoe healing power got it in HW , WHM lacked instant healing outside Bene ..and got it )

i want the same treatment that SE gave to WAR and SMN. Look at war nowadays , is a tank , has utility and on top of that does almost the same dmg as me...

smn .... the "revamp" was awesome , now smn has everything , awesome single target, incredible AOE , good sustained , good cleave ....and still is the only dps that can rez in combat. Plus is the most mobile DPS job now , Virus and Eye for eye.... as cherry on top.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

yep , i feel the same way , and cant agree more ...is at times infuriating. I feel like my bard didnt advance like the other jobs in HW...all other jobs got new toys or ways to cover the old holes coming from 2.0 (see healers as perfect example : sch lacked aoe healing power got it in HW , WHM lacked instant healing outside Bene ..and got it ) .

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NIN felt like this to me as well, they didn't get much change in terms of gameplay or new abilties. I can't comment on MCH since they had no 2.0, but it still irks me to no end that they're taking so many abilities from BRD, and that GB ends up homogenizing the two so much without MCH having it's own identity (which could have come from a more innovative ammo mechanic, attachments, or turret interaction)

I wonder if/how many times this has been brought up but my biggest problem with BRD has been the fact that barrage negates crits.
It's two more hits, so I've never understood why the first can't crit.

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Originally Posted by Kelevra

most dps jobs now bring at least one very useful "utility" to a party but still only penalize Brd for their's, also not cool

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Mage's Ballad, Army's Paeon, Foe's Requiem.

3 of the most powerful.. No. The only 3 actual perpetual utility buffs in the entire game that last for extended periods of time.

If not for you, your party would run out of TP in boss battles
Your mages and Nin's Ninjutsu would do Less damage.
Your healers Might run out of Mana causing a wipe.

Your usefulness far outweighs a singular straight up dps in every single long winded fight in the entire game. Essentially any damage a Tank and DPS does outside of their own TP pool, and the 10% dmg increase from all magic dmg you give with Foe's is dmg YOU are creating, It's not their dmg because they wouldn't have done that dmg WITHOUT YOU.

Now I don't do Savage Alex, and my brd is only 52. But unless things radically changed from Coil days, you have nothing to complain about.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

Now I don't do Savage Alex, and my brd is only 52. But unless things radically changed from Coil days, you have nothing to complain about.

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None of the fights require a TP regen due to the amount of downtime inbetween, as well as the overall better TP effiency that all combat jobs received post level 50. The execption is if someone dies...but NIN goad can cover that better than paeon since it doesn;t come with damage penalty.

Ballad isn't absolutely nessescary for fights post-progression. I hardly ever see my self needing to play ballad unless something has come wrong (and in the context of something like A3s, if it's gotten that bad then chances are it's unrecoverable)

Foe Requiem is in the similar circumstances of disembowel boosting BRD/MCH dps, and storm's eye allowing ninjas to use more AE.

Well then I guess there is a problem >_> I just assumed utility based class still had a use for its utility.
Ninjas utility is marginal in comparison to a bards what with shade walker, smokescreen and goad. But we still take a hit in the dmg department for it. If Bards kind of support isn't required, which is a shame tbh.. Then yeah I agree the class needs to be re-worked.

That's a real shame... I really like support classes... =/ I wanted more to be added in the future.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

That's a real shame... I really like support classes... =/ I wanted more to be added in the future.

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It's not that they're severely far behind other dps jobs (unlike 3.0), and ballad still has a place in progression. But other than that, it's not something that bothers me. What bothers me is their stance/justifaciton on the "dps tax" and the reasoning(s) behind it.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

Mage's Ballad, Army's Paeon, Foe's Requiem.

3 of the most powerful.. No. The only 3 actual perpetual utility buffs in the entire game that last for extended periods of time.

If not for you, your party would run out of TP in boss battles
Your mages and Nin's Ninjutsu would do Less damage.
Your healers Might run out of Mana causing a wipe.

Your usefulness far outweighs a singular straight up dps in every single long winded fight in the entire game. Essentially any damage a Tank and DPS does outside of their own TP pool, and the 10% dmg increase from all magic dmg you give with Foe's is dmg YOU are creating, It's not their dmg because they wouldn't have done that dmg WITHOUT YOU.

Now I don't do Savage Alex, and my brd is only 52. But unless things radically changed from Coil days, you have nothing to complain about.

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...that's just it tho, no party in there right mind would want a Bard to sing Ballad/Paeon for 'extended periods of time'

For Mp regen, the healers have gotten more tools to help with that. For tp regen, even with a good bit of the end game content having a fair bit of downtime at certain phases...most of the melee also have tools for restoring chunks of the tp when needed.

When those aren't needed, yeah I'd be running Requiem...unless I already am or have been (and have emptied out my mp doing so and waiting for it to build back up). Requiem more or less is a given tho and is mostly beneficial when a caster is present. Somewhat when healers are dps'n (I say somewhat cause healers sometimes have Acc issues, even with RoD debuff). A Brd playin requiem is like a Mnk keeping Dragon Kick applied, a Drg keepin Disembowel on the target, or a Nin not forgetting to reapply Dancing Edge.

But you wanna know something funny about Foe's....Brd doesn't benefit from it. Has Windbite and Flaming Arrow and neither of the two see enhancements to dmg when Requiem is active. Dragonfire Dive gets increased dmg when Requiem is running....u say a Nin's Ninjitsu does more damage when Foe's is running....and those two jobs already get increased dmg when there respective debuffs are applied to the target for most of the other moves in their arsenal.

So in a long fight, in a sitiuation...where the dps composition doesn't include a Drg, Brd dmg receives no enhancements when their 'debuff' song is playing.

Also...with groups doing end game content:

2 casters, 1 melee, and 1 ranged seems ok for a dps composition

2 melee, 1 caster, and 1 ranged seems ok for a dps composition

2 ranged, 1 melee, and 1 caster.....ppl shy away from

Reason being...cuz our 'usefulness CURRENTLY DOES NOT far outweigh a singular straight up dps in every single long winded fight' and dmg wise, Bard (and Mch) needs to be removed from the isolated box they are currently in. IMHO

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

NIN felt like this to me as well, they didn't get much change in terms of gameplay or new abilties. I can't comment on MCH since they had no 2.0, but it still irks me to no end that they're taking so many abilities from BRD, and that GB ends up homogenizing the two so much without MCH having it's own identity (which could have come from a more innovative ammo mechanic, attachments, or turret interaction)

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yeah but NIN was a job released later on and it really feels like NIN was created with HW on mind , looks how complete the job is....SW tosses morw utility (agro transfers) and some DPS cds (DwD and Duality) plus Armor crash a QOL skill that changed the job ....oh dont forget how mudras work now :3 i love it !

MP/TP is rarerly needed now

ppl say foe is utility , so its slashing debuff from NIN/WAR , piercing from DRG...

NIN has slashing , goad , +10% dmg taken
drg has piercing and Crit buff.
War has slashing debuff, is a tank , -10% dmg taken , and good dps
SMN , still has virus , eye for eye and is the only dps that can rez.
MNK int debuff , mantra and Top dps
bard has mp / tp regen that no1 needs outside wipefest nights , and Foe for the lonely mage and healer dpsing...
Mch has mp/tp regen and -5% debuf for magic or physical.
BLM......has ..... cool spells i guess :P /comfort


The point is that if SE balances jobs around support/dps they are doing it WRONG. (look at tanks too...the balance is way off)

I think it says a lot that the Warden's Paean doesn't even come into the equation when considering Bard utility lol.

Personally, the idea of Bards having relatively low dps has never bothered me personally. What does bother me is when this dps is justified by being assumedly high utility when that utility feels relatively lacklustre in most content. Outside of Savage and maybe Thordan EX you won't see much use of the Mage's Ballad and the Army's Paeon, and even in that content you may not need either a lot of the time. This only leaves Foe Requiem to use, which is at least very powerful and almost always worth using since even if you don't have casters healers will often be nuking. And the Warden's Paean is still pretty much useless outside of negating Warrior's pacify debuff.

I think it says a lot that the Warden's Paean doesn't even come into the equation when considering Bard utility lol.

Personally, the idea of Bards having relatively low dps has never bothered me personally. What does bother me is when this dps is justified by being assumedly high utility when that utility feels relatively lacklustre in most content. Outside of Savage and maybe Thordan EX you won't see much use of the Mage's Ballad and the Army's Paeon, and even in that content you may not need either a lot of the time. This only leaves Foe Requiem to use, which is at least very powerful and almost always worth using since even if you don't have casters healers will often be nuking. And the Warden's Paean is still pretty much useless outside of negating Warrior's pacify debuff.

The whole 'dpssssss' meta kinda makes things tough for Bard as well, I think. Every job is expected to push up huge amounts of damage yet Bards are still at the bottom end of the scale, and this gets even lower if they actually have to sing Ballad / Paeon. Bard dps is always going to be at the bottom end of the spectrum because it's a 'support'. But it's never going to have essential or specifically powerful support because it's a dps. :rolleyes:
Tbh, I feel like they should kinda just choose one role and focus on that because clearly trying to do both isn't working out for them. They're developing job with roles that don't even actually exist. That's how they broke Bard, if you ask me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

If not for you, your party would run out of TP in boss battles
Your mages and Nin's Ninjutsu would do Less damage.
Your healers Might run out of Mana causing a wipe.

Your usefulness far outweighs a singular straight up dps in every single long winded fight in the entire game. Essentially any damage a Tank and DPS does outside of their own TP pool, and the 10% dmg increase from all magic dmg you give with Foe's is dmg YOU are creating, It's not their dmg because they wouldn't have done that dmg WITHOUT YOU.

Now I don't do Savage Alex, and my brd is only 52. But unless things radically changed from Coil days, you have nothing to complain about.

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That's just it, though. Things have changed since them. Could you imagine a more TP-intensive fight than A2S? And yet I've never seen Paean dropped in there, only Foe, and, if a snowball really starts tumbling, Ballad. (DRG is now able to do AoE dps without spending extensive TP amounts on it (Geirskogul) and Monk can get half an Invigorate for 2.5 GCDs. And in the meantime, Bard AoE dps is pretty damn good, and the NIN usually never escaped the Gobwalker, poor bastard.) TP concerns are on average far less significant than they were in T8 or Final Coil. Ballad is usually played only during phases where enemies are not targetable rather than rotationally between CDs (at the 1:30/2:00-3:00 minute mark or 6-7:30 minutes, etc., when the most possible CDs will be on cooldown simultaneously).

I'm not sure why people are mentioning Savage as an example of no TP played. A3S, unless you clear REALLY fast AND have a NIN AND have your MCH/BRD LB3, you need some TP restorations from BRD/MCH. A4S, even with Quarantine you will still go dry without a BRD/MCH occasionally boosting up the party ... unless you're saccing the melee for some reason.