SAM out classing all other DPS

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

This is a cute take, but when you can see a glaring disparity you don't wait for the most difficult content. Best to voice if before and hope it's tweaked before then.

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And Yoshi has already announced changes in 4.05 or whatever the Savage release is. And I am sure there will be discrepancies, but judging by the way they are making the game easier in Stormblood, I doubt it ll be down to job/class difference. I dont think whining now will mean anything to them or us, because the designers will say "wait for Savage", and we will say "even though we dont know Savage, we postulate that X or Y will not be balanced".

FFXIV is currently a sightseeing tour, not a raid MMO. Lets see if they change that to a relevant degree.

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

And Yoshi has already announced changes in 4.05 or whatever the Savage release is. And I am sure there will be discrepancies, but judging by the way they are making the game easier in Stormblood, I doubt it ll be down to job/class difference. I dont think whining now will mean anything to them or us, because the designers will say "wait for Savage", and we will say "even though we dont know Savage, we postulate that X or Y will not be balanced".

FFXIV is currently a sightseeing tour, not a raid MMO. Lets see if they change that to a relevant degree.

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Yeah, I don't think that helps your original point. The latter is literally a result of the community discussion. This devil's advocacy people do on these forums when some folks point out discrepancies is laughable. "Whining" as you call it, is how we got ARR in the first place. An MMO is a dynamic product and the devs would be the first to admit they err from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

FFXIV is currently a sightseeing tour, not a raid MMO. Lets see if they change that to a relevant degree.

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actually they allready said its not their intention to change that.... they clearly said they want to close the cap of casual players and veterans skill level... whats really sad and somehow not understandable for me... if they do it like they just did with SB-release, making everything simple, nearly so simple that it bores people just a few weeks after release... I don't see veterans paying for that any longer – they mentioned a third skill level on top of hard mode and extreme mode... but I doubt that this extra skill level will touch any other content than raids/primals... mqs, fates, hunts, new cls like sam/rdm etc will remain easy like it became with SB... : /

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

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I thought the point of his post was to highlight that DRG is considerably weaker than the rest.
Maybe it was the DRG picture?
You can still get a decent heuristic approximation by assuming the average raid dps over the course of a fight.
I'm not even sure how easy it is to align Trick Attack and Dragon Sight (I don't really play DRG).
Either way, there's no way MNK+DRG+NIN highlights the value of DRG more than DRG+BRD+MCH.
The fact the buffs are multiplicative doesn't change it a lot because this also holds for any other job combination, and right now MNK+NIN+BRD+RDM beats anything with a DRG in it handily.
I could go over the numbers more carefully, even though I suspect, as stated above, they'll only stack harder against DRG.

Again, please note that everything I said is solely about DRG. NIN is clearly the best of the melee lot, and MNK can actually hold his own vs SAM.
Sorry if this was unclear :(

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

I thought the point of his post was to highlight that DRG is considerably weaker than the rest.

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Well...trick attack has a 60 seconds cd, dragon sight 120 seconds so ideally you can have dragon sight on 1 dps every 2 trick attacks. But yes I agree that DRG needs some love. I haven't even leveled it yet but just by looking at SSS dps requirements it's pretty clear that the dev team was very, very cautious with DRG personal dps because it brings so much utility...but I believe they went overboard a little. Though if I understand correctly, many dragoons have a problem with the new DRG gameplay because of how life of the dragon interacts with mechanics and jumps and I'm not sure that can be changed too much at this point.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Well...trick attack has a 60 seconds cd, dragon sight 120 seconds so ideally you can have dragon sight on 1 dps every 2 trick attacks. But yes I agree that DRG needs some love. I haven't even leveled it yet but just by looking at SSS dps requirements it's pretty clear that the dev team was very, very cautious with DRG personal dps because it brings so much utility...but I believe they went overboard a little. Though if I understand correctly, many dragoons have a problem with the new DRG gameplay because of how life of the dragon interacts with mechanics and jumps and I'm not sure that can be changed too much at this point.

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Well, NIN brings more utility (than any melee, and honestly only BRD beats it out of all the dps), and they seemed fine in buffing it despite that.
I really feel for DRG players right now.
(Also, props for actual smart critique of the numbers before ;) )

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Originally Posted by edgefusion

then they pop their short CD Meikyo and are back to max again.

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Meikyo is a DPS burst and the equivalent to DRG's B4B, not MNK's perfect Balance. If a boss jumps, a Samurai without Hagakure is punished severely, depending on current Sen and how close buffs are to falling off. If they're forced to overwrite a SEN to keep a buff, they lose 240 potency worth of damage then and there with no way to mitigate it without Hagakure. No competent Samurai is going to use Meikyo to reapply buffs besides the Sen granting Yukikaze, that's be like using B4B exclusively on Heavy Thrust spam.

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Originally Posted by edgefusion

I found it odd that Yoshi stated in the 4.01 patch notes that classes that were heavily punished by mechanics did more DPS. Samurai does the most DPS by far and barely blinks at mechanics. Hell if a boss jumps away it's merely an opportunity for Samurai to start powering up, while everyone else loses their buffs, then they pop their short CD Meikyo and are back to max again.

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Samurai also looses their buffs... It's just an opportunity to get kenki w/ meditate just like Mnks with Chakra stacks. Using Meikyo doesn't put you at max again necessarily. Using Meikyo to apply buffs is 99/100 times the wrong thing to do and That's being generous.

I see what You're trying to get at but... It wasn't really correct. Sam does have less ramp up time, but without Meikyo or Hagajure if they are both on CD, Sam h as the 2nd longest ramp up right after Drg which is just at or around 30-40 seconds to apply dot/buffs AND KMSGK (ever time you use an iajutsu, you loose a GCD). It's just Hagakure/Meikyo are on short timers, but are also the only offensive timed OGDs. SE might lengthen their recasts.

Not saying you are wrong to feel the way you do, It's just the information you are spreading is misleading.

Feels as if, hey made both Sam and Rdm with intention "to get new players hooked fast". One (Sam) with insane dps, not easy but not punished rotations/gameplay (punishing classes, frustrate new players the fastest), ..

the other (Rdm) very easy rotations/gameplay with very high burst and movement (+ thanx to utility gets in pfs well),

think SE felt Drk, Ast & Mch (roration/gameplay & "power " feeling-wise) didn't not get new players hooked that well ..., sure, there were a few new players, who still tried to stick to Drk, for what it represents, ... but at HW release, those 3 classes felt overall less attractive for newer players ..

probably a reason why Sam and Rdm can both be accessed in early areas, even ufo only at lv 50

maybe till SE feels, there are enough (new players) sticking to Sam/Rdm, they won't change much on them

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

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Tldr, SE is using Sam & Rdm as a big selling point for new and come back players

(trying to use them better than Drk, Ast & Mch, those flet as if more intended/build for veteran players, not trying to sell more, but keep/hold the establish the base)

and as long as SE is happy with the amount of (new players) starting and holding to Sam/Rdm, hence sees parallel growth of Sam/Rdm and new Subs (with jump pots possibly), SE won't touch those classes