As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Then don't! You can so easily join a casual group, a just for fun group, make your own group. You have that power and you don't need to impede on a group that doesn't suit your playstyle. Hardcore groups enjoy what they do, you not joining frees up a slot for a healer who likes the high-pressure environment. You have no right at all to enforce your playstyle on another group when you can so easily create your own group.

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who says I impdede myself on others or enforce my playstyle on groups. Think its more the other way round? You may not see that in game but I do

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Originally Posted by Feyona

who says I impdede myself on others or enforce my playstyle on groups. Think its more the other way round? You may not see that in game but I do

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If you knowingly join a hardcore group and upset that they put pressure on you to dps, then you are enforcing your playstyle on them by staying. You can tell them all of your ideas about what a healer's role is but all you are doing is lowering the fun for the rest of the group. This is why, it is suggested by many people here, that you join a group of like-minded people so nobody will be upset about anything.

I don't understand, do you purposely join groups of hardcore "elitists" to torture yourself when you clearly have no desire to be that way?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

who says I impdede myself on others or enforce my playstyle on groups. Think its more the other way round? You may not see that in game but I do

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That's kinda character assassination tbh. I haven't seen anything from him to indicate that kind of attitude. Setting standards is miles away from forcing someone to do something.

This whole thing is a lot of:

"You shouldn't force healers to dps."

"Fine, no one is forcing them."

"But they're forcing them in savage. They don't have to dps to savage."

"Okay? They don't have to, but if the group wants them to, they should?"

"Well they wanted me to so I did, but they shouldn't have to."

"They don't have to."

"Stop forcing them."

What do you think would be a productive result of this discussion? Because I'm not seeing a way to get there from here.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Both of you have options. All healers have options. There are pressures in endgame raiding for all players, for both healers. So this "force" that you're so forcefully arguing against can be addressed in a variety of different ways by yourselves, the individuals, rather than expecting the overall community meta to change (which it won't).

Saying that you or anyone may quit the game isn't the catastrophic life event that it may seem to be. Sometimes that is the right choice. It's a personal decision for a personal situation.

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Sure people not being able to enjoy the game doesnt effect you personally and really suits everyone that likes or enforces healer dps . So your fine, why worry about other people. ofc it doent matter. Why should it? All that matters is getting in that optimal play group.People are replaceable . To stormblad above how many times do I have to say I was persuded to go in that hard core static, they wanted to train me. I have never once asked to go in any static in all cases was asked to, in all cases, they knew I wasnt dps heal. The hard core group told me not to dps while learning a fight and the group split up in 2 weeks not due to me. So to say I tortured myself is way off the mark I went in cos they wanted me to and said ill try but felt out of depth with it.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Sure people not being able to enjoy the game doesnt effect you personally and really suits everyone that likes or enforces healer dps . So your fine, why worry about other people. ofc it doent matter. Why should it? All that matters is getting in that optimal play group.People are replaceable .

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What part of "they have options" was unclear? I'm not saying "dps or gtfo." I'm saying they have choices. Just like it's a choice to do savage content, to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I wont join a hardcore group now Ive been in one but didnt enjoy it. I joined cos I was asked to, and as always said I will try. Its not just the communty my feedback is aimed at its in general. And I do not expect everyone to accept all preferences. Im talking about healer dps not everything. That the force or pressure to do it is totally unecessary. Did you read what the other person said about it or have you completely overlooked what she said? She may quit game cos of it and Im feeling like that too.

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Like Lamb said, just join a casual group. The group I currently run with is casual focused. I'm not going to demand they push through every mechanic and both healers top the FFlong charts. If I want that kind of group, the onus is on me to seek out a new static because that isn't how they want to play the game. Why can't you do the same and find people who suit your preferences? Go look up DrakGamestein on youtube. His group proudly calls themselves casual raiders. The healers do minimal DPS and the whole group even trolls one another for the sheer fun of it. They aren't going to be on the higher levels of FFlogs, and that's perfectly okay. Plenty of people don't care about numbers, healer DPS or what have you. Go find those groups. What I don't understand if why you feel insistence on changing the community. If someone feels pressured into doing something they otherwise wouldn't, it's on them to leave. In the context of a static, they simply find another one.

I'm starting to think that Feyona is derailing the thread to an extent, considering it seems to be a perpetual loop every time someone turns around.

As much as the person's experience is, Feyona seems to always play the devil's advocate and chooses to find some type of wrong, despite the solutions that are proposed from MULTIPLE PEOPLE.

But I have to ask: What is the root of the problem when it came to heavy expectations that your Healer would DPS and how it leaked into casual content? I really would like to know how this evolved to where we are now since I don't have a good grasp of it.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

But I have to ask: What is the root of the problem when it came to heavy expectations that your Healer would DPS and how it leaked into casual content? I really would like to know how this evolved to where we are now since I don't have a good grasp of it.

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Ironically I think that catering to the lowest common denominator (i.e. Yoshi P wanting players to feel like they didn't need pressure) actually caused it. Making content easier (like the mind numbing nature of dungeons) causes players to do other things to fill in the lack of a need for healing. It is definitely a case that if more pressure was put on the healers (not necessarily though enemies hitting harder, but with more party wide damage and healer mechanics), then the DPS meta would be weakened.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Sorry but thats so elitist on a game that people should be allowed to enjoy. Words like not qualified, and shouldnt be there more or less is what your saying so only good ones allowed to play a game? And everyone else gtfo? So wrong lambadafish. And whats more you dont see whats wrong with healers doing their job well not being considered qualified

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Sorry but I have to respond to this hilariously misguided comment.

Feyona, you really need to understand that:

A) This tier is the easiest savage tier we've seen yet, only A11S is even coming close to the difficulty many of us saw in A3S, A4S, A6S and A8S progression at or close to min ilvl.

B) You are now progressing with echo which trivialises the DPS requirements for this already lenient tier.

So yes, there is usually a bar of entry to this content, not everyone is capable of playing at the level it frequently asks, far from it. It's just that the bar of entry is at the lowest it's ever been.

Oh and on the subject of 'hardcore' groups. I last did 'hardcore' raiding on the release of Gordias savage. That involved taking a week off work and raiding for 8+ hours each day, 7 days a week to chase world/server firsts. I landed a nerve infection during that stint, spent the tail end of it feeling like I was being stabbed in the eye and on the final day had to give in and get a replacement so I could face plant on a bag of frozen veg for stop the pain for a bit. Oh and the content was hard as hell as well ;)

So yes, perhaps that gives you a little insight as to why I find your 'but it's so easy, I don't need to DPS! I've been hardcore teehee gigglesnort' wafflings mildly annoying. At the risk of showing my age.... Kids these days eh? =(

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Originally Posted by Feyona

He was not harrassed no, or insulted even, but excluded therefore this does create pressure to dps as healer.

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Well then, if you can't handle others being better than you and therefore excluding you from their groups, don't join PF groups.

It's not me, or good players putting pressure on you and others. You are doing that to yourself, because you feel in need of rising up to the same level of skill. People being not as skilled as others is totally fine, noone forces you to improve, it's all up you to let that get to you or not.
Maybe I was harsh, possible, and even though I was not nice I was still polite and gave him the chance. Like... what the hell, he could have had 2 hours of farming Zurvan and literally being 'carried' all the way and all he had to do for that was staying in cleric and putting DoTs!!! How. Is. That. Pressure?!
Everyone was so focused on maximizing, nobody would have noticed if he would have been super bad at dpsing and even if, noone would have cared, because all we wanted was him at least trying and showing some will to put effort.

So please stop talking about 'pressure', while all of that just happens in your mind, because you had some d***bags thinking they were super pro while they were absolutely not.
If you feel like you can't live up to a groups expectations just tell them. "Hey guys, I feel like I can't keep up with you and therefore would like to leave so I can find a group that suits me better and you can find someone fitting in better. Thanks, have a nice day and good luck on your way." Then leave and open up a PF saying what you level of skill is and find others who are at same level. It's not too hard to communicate with others.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

That's kinda character assassination tbh. I haven't seen anything from him to indicate that kind of attitude. Setting standards is miles away from forcing someone to do something.

This whole thing is a lot of:

"You shouldn't force healers to dps."

"Fine, no one is forcing them."

"But they're forcing them in savage. They don't have to dps to savage."

"Okay? They don't have to, but if the group wants them to, they should?"

"Well they wanted me to so I did, but they shouldn't have to."

"They don't have to."

"Stop forcing them."

What do you think would be a productive result of this discussion? Because I'm not seeing a way to get there from here.

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Exactly what I was thinking. xD
I am just sitting here, reading last few pages and being like: "Eh... Wait... What?!"

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

But I have to ask: What is the root of the problem when it came to heavy expectations that your Healer would DPS and how it leaked into casual content?

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It's very simple, really. It's a combination of two facts:
The value of healing is capped.
Healers have a lot of spare time, a lot of spare resources and tools to do something with it.

For the first, just imagine healing would infinitely add overheal to your max HP. In such a case, even healing full HP targets would be useful. However, even then, once you pass the threshold where you can ignore all mechanics because you have more HP than being hit by all of them would subtract, healing more would be useless. The usefulness of healing is hard capped by the incoming damage.

Further, If a healer couldn't spare GCDs for not healing, people wouldn't ask them to do anything else because they can't. This has a lot to do with the power of healing spells - The faster you can get a healthbar from 1 to 100, the more time you have to dilly dally waiting for the next nuke to get them to 1 again.

If a healer didn't have the resources to do anything but healing, people wouldn't ask them to do anything else because they can't. You can probably imagine how hot people would be on Healers DPSing if every of their damage spells was Flare.

If a healer didn't have tools to use in downtime, people also wouldn't ask them to do anything else because it doesn't matter. But combined with the above it would mean excessive time of just doing nothing at all.

In short: Healers are too strong for the given content. That is on purpose, because SE wanted healing to be accessible, but it pretty much means that you'd need to constantly throw heavy hitting nukes at people they cannot avoid to make healers engaged for more than a couple seconds, because that's all it takes to get people back up. That is exactly what more difficult content does by the way - Double Whirlwind, Acid Raid, Double Mega Holy, Triple Cintamani, Akh Morn etc. And as soon as the barrage of spells stops... Healers go back to DPSing. Because they can.

And if that's already a thing in hard content, you can imagine that healers have even more free time and resources to spare on non-healing activities in casual content, as casual content has lower demands. That's what leads to people just jumping around idly. And if one person is jumping around idly and the other 3 are constantly doing stuff, it's not hard to understand why the 3 would like the fourth to do a bit more as well.

The unfortunate thing being that this "bit more" is only DPS, which people choosing a healer role often don't want to do. They often picked healer for the saviour fantasy, the samaritan, the good guardian angel that delivers people from pain, not to deliver pain themselves. That's something to respect, IMO, but if that is to come to pass, game design needs to support it. And getting that right is difficult.
Plus, no matter what you do, downtime will be a thing. You can only balance content for one set item level and one set skill level - people who are above that will experience varying degrees of downtime. So trying to fill the downtime with something that fulfills the healer fantasy is a thing to look into as well. But I'm just repeating myself by now.

Feyona, you're the joke of that topic, thank you.
I wanted to react to yours comments several times, but I realised it was useless to talk with you.

Good luck for being a burden for your comrade in the game.

Gotta love healer drama :'3

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Feyona, you're the joke of that topic, thank you.
I wanted to react to yours comments several times, but I realised it was useless to talk with you.

Good luck for being a burden for your comrade in the game.

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I wonder what sort of impression of this game people reading these forums. "hmm healers and tanks pressured to dps, roles all confused" " oh yes sounds like a really good game, I will have to try it" C ommunity is hostile they call people a joke for having role preferences" "hmm dont think Ill bother then." "oh its good for dps though cos half the team does your job for you". People with toxicity like that give this community a bad reputation, bear this in mind when you call people a joke

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

But I have to ask: What is the root of the problem when it came to heavy expectations that your Healer would DPS and how it leaked into casual content? I really would like to know how this evolved to where we are now since I don't have a good grasp of it.

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The simplest answer is that because most healers couldn't keep up with the healing requirement of earlier Raids so SE greatly reduced the healing cap so that more healers would have access to raiding.

Healers DPSing in raids has always been a thing and has always trickled down to casual content in the form of Dungeon Speed Runs. (or at the mentality of Main Heals, Support Heals + DPS)

Because SE lowered the required healing so much in Creator Savage both healers have a ton of opportunity to DPS and this has trickled down into casual content that it is pretty much expected that healers have time to help with DPS not to mention the lowered accuracy required for dungeons re-enforces this idea.

I think most people who visit the thread recognize that this is a very spirited, occasionally heated discussion regarding game meta and optimal/desired play, and not necessarily reflective of how a player treats other people unless they specifically provide examples of how they've handled specific situations in game. :)

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I think most people who visit the thread recognize that this is a very spirited, occasionally heated discussion regarding game meta and optimal/desired play, and not necessarily reflective of how a player treats other people unless they specifically provide examples of how they've handled specific situations in game. :)

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I was thinking of people outside the game or new people that havent experienced what end game is like. Read Tint's post. Gives you an idea other than mine, being as people think my experiencd isnt valid

So with all your boundless empathy and top tier understanding, you can't get what we're trying to say? For the past 80 pages? And this circular argument is still going on?

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

The simplest answer is that because most healers couldn't keep up with the healing requirement of earlier Raids so SE greatly reduced the healing cap so that more healers would have access to raiding.

Healers DPSing in raids has always been a thing and has always trickled down to casual content in the form of Dungeon Speed Runs. (or at the mentality of Main Heals, Support Heals + DPS)

Because SE lowered the required healing so much in Creator Savage both healers have a ton of opportunity to DPS and this has trickled down into casual content that it is pretty much expected that healers have time to help with DPS not to mention the lowered accuracy required for dungeons re-enforces this idea.

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This lowered requirement isn't exclusive to Creator either. Even dungeons became progressively easier throughout Heavensward. It's rather telling The Aery/Vault are still harder than virtually everything released thereafter. Xelphatol is practically egregious as you're overgeared just wearing lore gear yet it released with the ilvl 250-270 sets. Unless you have a truly awful tank, you'll inevitably have more downtime than actually healing time. And it's for that reason I feel the devs overshot the weaker requirements. No content should allow 70%+ Cleric Stance when it's brand new imo.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I wonder what sort of impression of this game people reading these forums. "hmm healers and tanks pressured to dps, roles all confused" " oh yes sounds like a really good game

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That is necessary for role design. I have experienced first hand through research that isolating roles leads to downtime which is filled with nothing, as Zojha stated. I agree that I would like more to do that is healer or tank centric during that down time (hell, I play a PLD who is told that their class is terrible due to bad DPS - yet I acknowledge that that is the devs fault not the communities)

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Community is hostile they call people a joke for having role preferences.

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Or maybe they will see the 50-100 pages of ignorance from you (both intentional and unintentional) and side with the large amount of people other than KDSilver who have given thought out, reasonable answers, showing knowledge and understanding of both the community and the game mechanics. Yet again you have cherry picked and pointed fingers saying "the community is hostile" because you got called out on by someone less subtle than the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

People with toxicity like that give this community a bad reputation, bear this in mind when you call people a joke

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Didn't you call me elitist several pages ago for basically no reason? I believe BoundDreamer called it character assassination, I prefer the term defamation of character. I shrugged that off, or would you rather I act the way you are?

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

So with all your boundless empathy and top tier understanding, you can't get what we're trying to say? For the past 80 pages? And this circular argument is still going on?

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why do you think I dont? Is that because I havent agreed with everythung? I keep saying now that I agree or get your points in the hope that you know that I do. Doesnt seem to register though

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Originally Posted by Feyona

why do you think I dont? Is that because I havent agreed with everythung? I keep saying now that I agree or get your points in the hope that you know that I do. Doesnt seem to register though

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Because you're still arguing with people, calling the community hostile and toxic, and pretty much saying that the healer meta is wrong because of your personal experiences. I truly wish I understood what you're trying to achieve here because I don't think the "struggle" is an external one. It's an inability to exercise the many, many options that are available.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

That is necessary for role design. I have experienced first hand through research that isolating roles leads to downtime which is filled with nothing,



Didn't you call me elitist several pages ago for basically no reason? I believe BoundDreamer called it character assassination, I prefer the term defamation of character. I shrugged that off, or would you rather I act the way you are?

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I said your words were elitist, and I could actually say that your ignoring me as well just because you dont agree, reply or have a favourable response. I just dont agree it should be pressured on to people and thats whether you think its the best way or not it doesnt change that fact. That you and the meta are dictating to others how they play whether they like it or not. kdsiler, your hero now, said I was a joke, and said I was a burden with clear intention to be toxic. I helped more people on this game than I can count.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

but my understanding of the world around me was stated ias being in the top 4% of the population. I have a first degree, and my empathy with others is boundless.

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I'm sorry, but i don't believe you. Especially with all these pages where you just tried to bully and/or insult people who weren't agree with you. If someone with a boundless empathy can do this, then the whole world is totally screwed.
I was already a bit speechless when you said studying psychology (or something like that), but here... Damn, Feyona... Why ? :<

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

So with all your boundless empathy and top tier understanding, you can't get what we're trying to say? For the past 80 pages? And this circular argument is still going on?

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Exactly my thoughts when I read her message. My english isn't good enough to express my opinion, and you just nailed it. Thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I could actually say that your ignoring me as well just because you dont agree, reply or have a favourable response.

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Theres a reason for that, I listened a lot, and I listened for a long time. I watched your behaviour, and your attitude the way you pick out random bits of minor information and construe it into a fantasy story. The way you single out people and treat them like the worst kinds of people based on assumptions, and misconstrued data (you did that to both me and Amelia). Frankly Feyona, I'm ignoring you because you have been given far too much patience, and your opinion, whatever it is anymore, is of little significance to anyone here, because your attitude gets in the way.

I have agreed with elements that you said several times, I also disagree with healer DPS, I have mentioned several solutions (none of which quoted by you) and design breakdowns on the subject, but the difference is that I didn't come here with a toxic attitude towards the raiding community, with the intent to force my opinion on random people and change the way that raiding works to suit me. There was no other outcome than backlash.

Sorry for the emotional outburst, but I have been too patient for too long.

The healer's jobs are to reduce damage taken and to heal damage dealt.

Reducing damage taken comes from any shield-type statuses available, from sending mobs to sleep, from punting mobs that aren't being AoEd, attacked or asleep far away, from killing mobs (DPS goes here) and from curing status ailments. In general mitigation is more important than healing because in general, mitigation is significantly more time-efficient and MP-efficient than healing.

Healing damage dealt is, well, healing damage dealt. And reviving the dead.

Mediocre healers do not know when damage is going to be dealt, and need to keep everyone topped off to ensure nobody dies. Those who know fights very well know when something can be left to natural regen to handle, when heal-over-time is enough, and when instant healing is necessary, and in what strength. And the bad ones let people die.

So yes, healers need to DPS, but not for damage's sake, but for the sake of reducing damage taken. Tanks also need to DPS, but not for damage's sake, but for the sake of both maintaining threat, and reducing the damage they take (to make things easier for a healer).

However, healers also need to do things other than just damage or healing. Timing Esuna to cancel status ailments such as Pacification is necessary, especially if you have no bard. Sleep is necessary. Buffing party members is necessary. Interrupting problematic enemy attacks, if your tank is sleeping or when multiple attacks come at once, is necessary. Activating dungeon mechanics that reduce the damage taken by your party is necessary. Drawing aggro from certain slow mobs, dumping a further Heavy on them and kiting them, together with Sleep, is necessary. Thematically, healers are the most complicated task in any MMO to do well, and FF14 is no exception.

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Originally Posted by Wanzer

I'm sorry, but i don't believe you.
I was already a bit speechless when you said studying psychology (or something like that), but here... Damn, Feyona... Why ? :<


Exactly my thoughts when I read her message. My english isn't good enough to express my opinion, and you just nailed it. Thank you very much.

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Now Im being called a liar and its me that is insulting? Please look over the posts and see who has insulted who. And its actually true I have it on paper. That you dont belive me is up to you Im not bothered that you dont see that I care for people being forced how to play , and hat gang mentality wont force me to agree with you either. I understand the meta and all of the people enforcing it can go eat it, like you swallowed it whole in the first place without giving any thought to how it may impact on others.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Now Im being called a liar and its me that is insulting? Please look over the posts and see who has insulted who. And its actually true I have it on paper. That you dont belive me is up to you Im not bothered that you dont see that I care for people being forced how to play , and hat gang mentality wont force me to agree with you either. I understand the meta and you can go eat it, like you swallowed it whole in the first place without giving any thought to how it may impact on others.

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No. What you said (in my previous quote) doesn't match with what you did. This is the difference. If you want to take it as if I said you were a liar, fine.

But it's funny to see that you still don't know what is an insult, or not. Noticing something based on facts is totally different than accusing people of lying. I would say : it's more about being coherent between your thoughts and your acts. And you aren't.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Now Im being called a liar and its me that is insulting? Please look over the posts and see who has insulted who. And its actually true I have it on paper. That you dont belive me is up to you Im not bothered that you dont see that I care for people being forced how to play , and hat gang mentality wont force me to agree with you either. I understand the meta and all of the people enforcing it can go eat it, like you swallowed it whole in the first place without giving any thought to how it may impact on others.

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"I don't believe you" doesn't remotely translate to "you are a liar."

You keep accusing people of twisting your words. What would you call what just happened there?

You may think your understanding is good, but your comprehension isn't coming across at all. Taking something that someone said and completely changing the meaning does not allow for a common ground or a meaningful discussion.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

"I don't believe you" doesn't remotely translate to "you are a liar."

You keep accusing people of twisting your words. What would you call what just happened there?

You may think your understanding is good, but your comprehension isn't coming across at all. Taking something that someone said and completely changing the meaning does not allow for a common ground or a meaningful discussion.

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*Incoming Feyona post about how you are completely wrong, that she understands perfectly clearly and that you are attacking her viewpoint* :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

*Incoming Feyona post about how you are completely wrong, that she understands perfectly clearly and that you are attacking her viewpoint* :rolleyes:

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I'm pretty sure about 90% of the issue is a language barrier...

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I'm pretty sure about 90% of the issue is a language barrier...

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That is a very toxic thing to say. That people who don't comprehend things should have to DPS 90% of the time as healer without barriers.

Did I do it right?

Hehe joking aside you may be right. That's how things seem to keep going in a circular debate.

All we can really do is wait until 4.0 though to see what shape the healer meta is in for endgame and that's how things will be shaped for the rest of things. Maybe we'll just end up with a huge variety of different fight dynamics and everyone will just have to adapt to each fight and not just A = the best method. Although healer DPS will always be a thing as long as players can create downtime because a wasted GCD is a wasted GCD.

- "Tank used Hallowed Ground" - "Ok just going to see if I can get a Free Cure proc for when it wears off"

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

"I don't believe

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what does it translate to then? I dont believe means someone is telling the truth or something else? Im curious what does it mean when someone doesnt believe what you say? Does it imply your lying? Whats your interpretation? But whatever black seems to be white here whenever anyone says ive insulted people its like where? Have I called people a joke? Called them crazy, paranoid, that I live in a fantasy, that im ignorant? That anyone burdens other people? Posted animated mocking posts of anyone? No just stated the truth that amelia kicked someone or pointed out elitist words.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Elitism excludes people. We are not doing past instances. Agreed this is easier therefore healers like me can do it. Thats really good for people so more people can do it. I dont like it being made more difficult by making everyone playi optimally instead, Just because people say its the way its done.

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It's not elitism. It's simply the level of skill and communication that both Gordias and Midas required within a consistent and stable group to get an early clear. It really is that cut and dry.

I'm not saying your experience is null and void, rather I'm saying that in the grand scheme of things, you've just experienced very little of the content that's caused this meta to come about.

You might not like challenging content but thankfully there's a good portion of the player base that does. Alex normal was put in for the people that don't want to put weeks of work into progression and token gear means that the most casual of players can still get decently close to optimal gear with very little raid time. Not everything needs to be dumbed down to nigh trivial levels thanks =(

You say pressure and stress from a toxic community, I say challenge and excitement with old friends and fresh faces.

Oh and I'll also add, I suspect a good chunk of the early scepticism would have come courtesy of Vlad's little run on this forum in the build up to Heavensward's release.

TLDR: He pretty much trolled every thread on here endlessly spouting on about how AST was going to make WHM redundant in the end game and such whilst cherry picking quotes and completely ignoring any logic that got thrown his way (whilst also having absolutely zero endgame experience). Needless to say, when Gordias Savage landed and it quickly became apparent that not only was AST rather lacklustre, but that it also simply didn't suit the content in the slightest right from A1S, he rather went rather quiet.

Looking back, it's actually mildly ironic that in the end, he was somewhat correct. It just happened in 3.4 instead of 3.0 ;)

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

You say pressure and stress from a toxic community, I say challenge and excitement with old friends and fresh faces.

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The really funny thing is that I feel like I have made common ground with a lot of people from this thread alone, and have a large respect for many new people because of it. When people band together to protect something they love, that is the opposite of toxicity.

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Originally Posted by Wanzer

No. What you said (in my previous quote) doesn't match with what you did. This is the difference. If you want to take it as if I said you were a liar, fine.

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Strange how personal this has become really all these personal judgement and assumptions about my personality because I dont like the meta being forced. I think maybe some should look at what they are saying too, and why they are saying it and why I get a barrage of personal comments from some people here. Im wondering what it is really that makes this happen when you dont agree with things and how emotionally heated people get about it when in reality I havent resorted to name calling or personal attacks on anyone. The incohence is in this entire thread and not just my supposed misunderstanding of what said or meant either. So please tell me how I have insulted in a way that is worse that what anyone has said to me.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The really funny thing is that I feel like I have made common ground with a lot of people from this thread alone, and have a large respect for many new people because of it. When people band together to protect something they love, that is the opposite of toxicity.

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I'd personally join any party finder of yours that I saw. :) I basically have nothing to do until Stormblood but help people and gear sixth and seventh alt jobs. And get pvp mounts. That's my last frontier.

I'm still running extreme parties because I like to help, and tank and healer jobs are most often in need. And I just plain love those fights even after doing them way too many times.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I'd personally join any party finder of yours that I saw. :) I basically have nothing to do until Stormblood but help people and gear sixth and seventh alt jobs. And get pvp mounts. That's my last frontier.

I'm still running extreme parties because I like to help, and tank and healer jobs are most often in need. And I just plain love those fights even after doing them way too many times.

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Same, I've been a bit inactive in game lately due to school and haven't managed to properly raid this tier (If I had one good run of A11S I could finally get that clear), and I would love to jump in a raiding party with a lot of you. You guys have taught me a lot about raiding without even partying with me, and that's an awesome thing to pick up.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The really funny thing is that I feel like I have made common ground with a lot of people from this thread alone, and have a large respect for many new people because of it. When people band together to protect something they love, that is the opposite of toxicity.

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Are you referring to yor likes? Why anyone could get a shitload just by insulting me alone. But do give youself a pat on the back you with the majority well done. Im protecting too, Healers right to heal as thats what I loved, playing the game for, now its not even a role, not even valued and healers are already moving off the game or being put off by the meta, and the toxicity towards those not doing it. Or even some that may have wanted to migrate here from other games see how you cant heal here. Just cos people dont speak up on here (and I dont blame them cos they get slated) doesnt mean they like dpsing their asses off you know