The issue nobody wants to address

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

What I'm saying is that if someone isn't on top of their rotations or DPS, but can still pull enough to clear the content without embarassing anyone, there's no need to pick on them or label them bad just because they have place for improvement, the same goes for healers and tanks.

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And that's not what we are saying at all, no one expects a perfect rotation in anything short of progression raiding. What we do expect however is a player to have at least a basic understanding of their Job's rotation and mechanics and/or skills used to tank/heal, especially by the time they hit 50, which far too many player's don't. As well as put in some god damn effort when you sign up for duties with other players. And it's these players which are causing people to fail at completing content.

If the rest of the party have to perform at 150% to make up for someone else's performance we have every right to call them out on it. It's not fair on us to have to pick up their slack and give them a free pass just because we can't prove they are under performing in the case of DPS players.

And to make matters worse with the limitation on vote kicking, we usually end up being penalized in addition to having our time wasted because players don't have a clue how to play or cba to put in any effort. Is any of that fair to us? No it's not... If tanks and healer's have to always play well, the same should apply to all the DPS players out there too. There's no reason they should go without any responsibility in their performance when the game requires them to put in effort to actually get through content. As thing's obviously don't die with poor DPS.

The funny thing is people think the terrible dps are just poor uniformed souls who just need to be forced to see how bad they are. Parsers would magically solve the problems of terrible people in duty finder.

The reality: almost nobody you see that's a bad dps tank or healer with a bad attitude cares what you think about their rotation or parse numbers. They are using the duty finder and mashing to victory because they know there is little to no back blow to not doing your job.

Parsers are useful to those who can understand them in context. Those people already use them. Force feeding the tool down every players throats is a bad idea in general. It only promotes toxicity in the community in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Like I said "if someone isn't on top of their rotations or DPS, but can still pull enough to clear the content without embarassing anyone" is okay, but that was not the case with your example. And yes, that's what the kick is for, because that person is probably a troll, since dungeons are doable with very minimum requirements.

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This thread is about those people, and responses like your original one. You may not realise just how many are out there. It's pretty crazy how many people don't even do half of what would be considered max dps for their class. This is what the thread is about, and how it's taboo to ask the to contribute in any meaninful way.

For about the millionth time in this thread, people aren't saying you have to be playing at world first level, even say 70% of maximum would be fine, and thats pretty easy.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The funny thing is people think the terrible dps are just poor uniformed souls who just need to be forced to see how bad they are. Parsers would magically solve the problems of terrible people in duty finder.

The reality: almost nobody you see that's a bad dps tank or healer with a bad attitude cares what you think about their rotation or parse numbers. They are using the duty finder and mashing to victory because they know there is little to no back blow to not doing your job.

Parsers are useful to those who can understand them in context. Those people already use them. Force feeding the tool down every players throats is a bad idea in general. It only promotes toxicity in the community in my opinion.

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The reality: there are a lot of different people who play the game. Is was nice of you to add the "with a bad attitude" par though. If some one is holding back the group and has a bad attitude, that is why the kick function is there. So in what way are they relevant to the topic. As a parser applies to those people, it just confirms for you that they were, and lets them know as well.

Another Reality: Not all people that react negatively when they are confronted with their bad play know they are playing poorly, or at they very least how poorly. There are a lot of differenet people and personalities playing.

Also there is not a single console player who understands the context of parsers, that is using one. I'll give you one guess why. That is a rather large portion of the population don't you think?

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Originally Posted by Jynx

It only promotes toxicity in the community in my opinion.

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How? That's always the argument, but it's never based on anything more than "well just my opinion" or "I met someone who was mean once."

Parsers aren't unexplored territory. Jerks use them in jerkish ways, but they don't make people who aren't jerks into jerks. It just doesn't happen. It's a completely unfounded fear.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The funny thing is people think the terrible dps are just poor uniformed souls who just need to be forced to see how bad they are. Parsers would magically solve the problems of terrible people in duty finder.

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Nobody is saying this and if someone does, they would be mistaken.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The reality: almost nobody you see that's a bad dps tank or healer with a bad attitude cares what you think about their rotation or parse numbers. They are using the duty finder and mashing to victory because they know there is little to no back blow to not doing your job.

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This is half true, there are just as many players who simply do not know as there are players who simply do not care, however having your performance laid out in the open and accountable will lead to less instances of both.

Players who do not know are likely to find out and learn, and players who do not care are likely to get kicked if they choose not to perform the same we do now with any tank or healer in a similar situation.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Parsers are useful to those who can understand them in context. Those people already use them. Force feeding the tool down every players throats is a bad idea in general. It only promotes toxicity in the community in my opinion.

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Performance feedback has been a part of MMO culture since MMORPGs first came out, theres no need for hypotheticals or opinions of possibilities when a decades worth of MMOs have already told us exactly how it will play out. The players who are likely to harass others will do so anyway as many of them already are and they will simply get reported, that's what GM's are for.

In all likelihood as long as content remains faceroll what you'll see instead of an increase of toxicity is the same apathy many players approach 4 man content with anyway, and you'll have just as many players saying "well we cleared so who cares?" in the face of their low numbers. However the tool will be available to those who cannot access one now (console players) and it will give parties the ability to hold all roles equally accountable for their contributions, something that is far from the case now.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

It only promotes toxicity in the community in my opinion.

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No you know what actually promotes toxicity? Player's expecting to put in no effort and not bothering to learn how to play and causing problems for the rest of us. If they want to play like that they can F&%* off to a single player game where they can't ruin the experience of other players.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Snip.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Snip.

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+90k

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

Well... To me it seems more like back in P.E. in school, or if the work arranges an inofficial sporting event. Your team is chosen through lottery, you have no idea of knowing who you're going to end up with. Some people in your class/department are good at the sport, some play it every now and then, and some barely know the rules. If the ones good at the sport try to force the others in their team to play at their level, they're out of luck in two out of those three cases.

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Originally Posted by Odett

Stop with these analogies, please. When you queue up for something in this game, you're making a choice. No one is forcing you to participate like a required P.E class in school, and of course you can't expect people from your work to be halfway competent at something that has nothing to do with their line of work. You can't use the "barely know the rules" excuse because you don't start this game at level 60 (I mean, you can, but it's not valid). It's not like P.E or a work sporting event where you might or might not have previous experience with a sport. You've been playing this game for many hours to get to level 60, so it can't possibly be too much for me to hope that you're able to carry your own weight and have some understanding of how your skills work whenever you decide to participate in a dungeon.

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Well, we could also humor him a bit. So, everything is done, and you are on your team playing soccer, for examples sake. Everyone takes the field...

...one fellow on your team starts shooting at your own net, or kicking the ball out of bounds intentionally...

...you say "Umm, hey, we are supposed to take the ball to that net down there and score."...

...to which one of the other players yells "Hey! don't pick on him! He can play how he wants! Elitest scum!"...

...and the person kicking the ball responds "Yeah, I'm the one carrying you anyway!"...

That is what the thread is actually about.

Now, fast forward to level 60, wait, no I meant a lot, like maybe a couple years of playing soccer on the weekend, and that player is now joining drop in groups down at the field, and still shooting on his own net, or kicking it out of bounds. Repeat the above conversation, did it just get even more ridiculous?

Or once again Malevictions X's and O's img. I would like that to be in the OP as well as at the top of each page to give people reference.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

How? That's always the argument.

It just doesn't happen.

It's a completely unfounded fear.

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Despite the fact that it's a very common occurance? I've never experienced it myself but I've talked to enough people about how pushy people can get when throwing parse numbers around without even understanding the context of the numbers themselves.

Like I said throwing numbers at people does nothing, all your saying is. "These numbers mean things do them better!", and the imediate response is "Those numbers give me proof to show them they are bad!" Why would a player who is willing to improve would even need this as evidence the only reasoning behind people wanting parsers is in all reality the free reign to shame people over their numbers. I have no qualms with the usefullness of the tool for people who actually use them to calculate their rotations and all that stuff but the general player isn't going to do that. Not everyone cares to be as bleeding edge as you think they want to be.

You may think that some people are just poor uninfomred souls but I guarnatee you a good majority of them are just facerolling because they know you are never going to see them again in content. The best enforcement of people needing to actually know there job and play the game is responsibillity the duty finder works against this. Being known as the guy who just wont listen to advice on how to be a better player is worse than having your numbers shown for strangers to look at for 10-15 minutes until they never see you again.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Despite the fact that it's a very common occurance? I've never experienced it myself but I've talked to enough people about how pushy people can get when throwing parse numbers around without even understanding the context of the numbers themselves.

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So common that not only have you not experienced it yourself so your evidence isn't even anecdotal, but you're instead relying on third party testimonials?

Whelp I'm convinced.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

You may think that some people are just poor uninfomred souls but I guarnatee you a good majority of them are just facerolling because they know you are never going to see them again in content. The best enforcement of people needing to actually know there job and play the game is responsibillity the duty finder works against this. Being known as the guy who just wont listen to advice on how to be a better player is worse than having your numbers shown for strangers to look at for 10-15 minutes until they never see you again.

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I don't disagree with this but the point was never about fixing the entire playerbase as I've mentioned before, allowing players to have some form of accountability in the DF on DPS jobs doesnt instantly make everyone a better DPS or force them to care.

However it might mitigate some of what we're seeing and will definitely help those who are interested in seeing their numbers but are unable to.

Like console players.

No offense but if you're trying to provide a point saying how the addition of parsers would breed toxicity, saying the equivalent of "Some guy in my FC said someone in Ex roulette was being mean" isn't going to make your point.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

So common that not only have you not experienced it yourself so your evidence isn't even anecdotal, but you're instead relying on third party testimonials?

Whelp I'm convinced.

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^Pretty much this. It's a common hypothetical, not a common occurrence.

This video's pretty old (and about WoW) but this is what far more commonly happens with parsers (spoiler: nobody cares about people's dps, let alone harasses them): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas